Archers forgotten?

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear

Astrelle, my friend made a new archer cuz when you make a new class now you start in the Primal World and can test out the new skills. And Frost Splash is kind of like Whisper Shot and it hits everyone behind the target. So it actually may be worth getting just for that, I'm going to get it for the sake of testing. Hate the fact that I wasted the 10 bloods I got on the combo skill that's useless.

CoolStorm - Sanctuary

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Just seems like there's no end to archer QQ despite the fact that you do fine in nearly everything except pure unbuffed 1v1's, which is something that doesn't even matter much imo.

The 56% defense buff will help archers as much as arcanes - it's in fact a nerf to wizzies more than archers imo because that 56% m def can't be debuffed by undine or genie spark. We aren't scared of purge because it removes 60% p def...we're scared of it because it removes a 120% self buff, and the new passives don't do anything to help us in that department.

Archers will actually gain more p def from that buff than the majority of arcanes because their base p def is slightly higher (even with elemental neck). That's gonna help quite a bit vs sins.

We'll gain a bunch of m. def, but that doesn't really help us against archers, along with some p def.

How can skill casters be nerfed when they are all getting a passive skill damage boost?

Arcanes are getting same passive def boost as everyone and a skill damage boost which is good for ALL their attacks.

Archers get passive def boost same as everyone, and a passive skill boost which is only good situational.

Archers are not skill damage oriented so I don't see your point. If all classes except one get a damage boost, then doesn't that equal a nerf for the one class that didn't get a damage boost?

Not even going to go in the **** skills that they put together for archers on this expansion...

KingThis - Heavens Tear

CoolStorm - Sanctuary wrote: »

How can skill casters be nerfed when they are all getting a passive skill damage boost?

Arcanes are getting same passive def boost as everyone and a skill damage boost which is good for ALL their attacks.

Archers get passive def boost same as everyone, and a passive skill boost which is only good situational.

Archers are not skill damage oriented so I don't see your point. If all classes except one get a damage boost, then doesn't that equal a nerf for the one class that didn't get a damage boost?

Not even going to go in the **** skills that they put together for archers on this expansion...

^ this guy speaks with a head on hs shoulders

HaxNinja - Heavens Tear

PWI: #sorrynotsorry

Quilue - Sanctuary

Barrage hits people behind your target too...

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear

Its not even specifically this update either, Archer's have been consistently getting **** updates for awhile. If you compare every other class that has a skill similar to ours theirs has a better cd, chi use or even none. All other classes besides sins have better pdef and mdef at end game(even that is arguable due to focused mind and tidal). All other classes have a heal of some kind, or an interrupt. Also no damage nerfs. Archer's damage is based off of every 150 dex, while Casters get more damage per 125 magic. Archer's QQ for a reason, we get consistently shafted. The only QQ we consistently get at end game is because we main a purge weapon that only has an 8% proc rate.

Burnout - Harshlands

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The only QQ we consistently get at end game is because we main a purge weapon that only has an 8% proc rate.

Purify proc also has a similar proc rate...

Also casters get 100% wep attack per 100 mag vs 150 for archers, but you also forget that archers also get 5% crit rate per 100 dex, while the only thing casters get is...more MP. If archers got 100 wep attk per 100 dex they'd scale MUCH better than casters.

Asterelle - Sanctuary

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Purify proc also has a similar proc rate...

Also casters get 100% wep attack per 100 mag vs 150 for archers, but you also forget that archers also get 5% crit rate per 100 dex, while the only thing casters get is...more MP. If archers got 100 wep attk per 100 dex they'd scale MUCH better than casters.

Casters get 0.12% mres buff per mag point while archers get 6 evasion (not the good sin-type evasion but the older nonfunctional evasion). It can get pretty painful when the only class without defense skills receives no defensive benefit from their primary stat.

jhktwentythree

Yea stealth for a range class is ****.

Two leaps for a range class is ****.

+6 meter range skill for a top range class is ****.

Having AoE silence is ****.

Yea we archers just normal attack and don't cast skills so Endless Breeze is **** and casters can decrease their channel and cast time right??!?

We need more attack speed more -interval stat or +100% attack speed buff please!!!

Yea I want 100 dex multiplier to weapon attack cause 20 strength and magic give one critical % right?!? We need more damage because we can't shoot 2 arrows every second!! b:surrender

Yea I want more pdef and mdef because my evasion is garbage with 700 dex, the 3 second immunity and 30% damage reduction from wings of grace is garbage I want it to give 100% pdef and mdef 500% evasion and 75% damage reduction please!

Archers shafted so much help!

Quilue - Sanctuary

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Purify proc also has a similar proc rate...

Also casters get 100% wep attack per 100 mag vs 150 for archers, but you also forget that archers also get 5% crit rate per 100 dex, while the only thing casters get is...more MP. If archers got 100 wep attk per 100 dex they'd scale MUCH better than casters.

Forgetting about the caster masteries or something?

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear

jhktwentythree wrote: »

Yea stealth for a range class is ****.

Two leaps for a range class is ****.

+6 meter range skill for a top range class is ****.

Having AoE silence is ****.

Yea we archers just normal attack and don't cast skills so Endless Breeze is **** and casters can decrease their channel and cast time right??!?

We need more attack speed more -interval stat or +100% attack speed buff please!!!

Yea I want 100 dex multiplier to weapon attack cause 20 strength and magic give one critical % right?!? We need more damage because we can't shoot 2 arrows every second!! b:surrender

Yea I want more pdef and mdef because my evasion is garbage with 700 dex, the 3 second immunity and 30% damage reduction from wings of grace is garbage I want it to give 100% pdef and mdef 500% evasion and 75% damage reduction please!

Archers shafted so much help!

The stealth keeps you stationary, requiring you to use your leaps, which you HAVE to be withing 20 meters of your target to use if they run away you're standing there.

The leaps were long overdue tbh and we should be able to leap in all directions not just left and right.

Sage Wizards have AoE on their Force of Will don't wanna hear it, similar aoe range no chi cost and no range minimum of 18 meters. Which is an interrupt and a seal. I shouldn't even have to bring up Mystics....

Plenty of other classes have 35 meter range attacks and for archers YOU need to be sage to basically get that. Also Galvanic Charge/Aura skill costs 2 sparks and has a stupid long cast time. Lets also consider Barb's Berserker's Wrath, 35 meter attack with a 20 meter splash range after that 35 meters. Does triple damage to airborne targets and can GoF.

Purge doesn't go off on skills with effects, BMs, Seekers, Sins, and Barbs can GoF on almost all of their attacks not to mention GoF has a 30% proc rate.

Wings of Grace is one of our few good skills. LA has the worst defensive stats in the game. End game casters and HA classes have better Pdef and Mdef then us. Also better damage output due to that 100 multiplier.

Crit is a chance and you need to have above 50% to crit semi consistently.

Please bring less ignorance to your argument next time, fail troll.

Maxxxson - Dreamweaver

Just going to leave this here :


http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1629331



Theres a reason Archers didnt get a big improvement, they are already freaking strong right now.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Maxxxson - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just going to leave this here :


http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1629331



Theres a reason Archers didnt get a big improvement, they are already freaking strong right now.

The only people who think archers are OP are people who suck.

ToyMaker_NOT - Raging Tide

Hum...Archers Forgotten...

Having played an Archer on both PvP and PvE servers prior to R9, genies, and faction base apothecary...Archers Forgotten...

In my opinion, what Archers have Forgotten is HOW TO KITE.

R9rr, JoSD, IGs from genies, 1K, and faction base have made many archers I've come across very lazy. They will stand toe-to-toe against melee and AA class counting on the 25 seconds of God-mode and 20 - 30 attacks that go with it to bail their pixelated behinds out to trouble.

Archers are an opportunist. You look for the stragglers and pick them off. You lure your target out of the main body and you pick them off.

Archers better relearn this skill quick because against R9rr+12 endgame card set they will degauss your toon's azz.

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear

Maxxxson - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just going to leave this here :


http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1629331



Theres a reason Archers didnt get a big improvement, they are already freaking strong right now.

So yeah I'm talking about end game geared characters not squishy 1 shots. There's a reason I dont take my alts into NW cuz their gear sucks compared to my archer. Even my mystic who's got full s3 nirvi I wouldn't bring into NW. All end game toons tear through non end game toons end of story, just cuz theres more 5k hp AA classes roaming the fields of NW doesn't mean anything.

Connera - Heavens Tear

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I have lots of doubts about Frost Splash. I have trouble believing a 1.5 second debuff of any kind is going to be worth 2 sparks and having damage spread out evenly over 5 small hits makes it easier to defend against. I'd prefer getting 2 waves of barrage instead I think.

Before people say Feather Armageddon is aoe player knockback, the book has the correct description: http://i.imgur.com/8FCjMsf.png

There is also a significant nerf to Spirit Blackhole since the passive defense buff seems to max out at 56% and basically becomes an unpurgeable cleric buff.

The crit passive is giving everyone much higher crit while it benefits archer least due to diminishing return.

The skill damage passive is lost on archer due to their lack of damaging skills and reliance on auto attacks to purge.

This is the worst expansion for archers since Rising Tide.

As usual, a great post from Asterelle. +1

crimxsonx

Since when archers need skill?Tab normal attack,tab normal attack ...

opkossy

crimxsonx wrote: »

Since when archers need skill?Tab normal attack,tab normal attack ...

Try that against endgame opponents who have two brain cells to rub together and tell us how it works out.

Go on, I'll wait. b:cute

crimxsonx

Most scary class in nw imo is psychic,i've seen psychic holding nw alone vs 20 5 mins,he was freaken unkillable in the same time 1,2 shoting his opponents, among those 20 ppl were good geared ones as well but couldnt do ****,i think his name was _Eclipse_ or something like that.Archer is easy mode class.b:victory


PS:here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dUQAPwvPMc Enjoy!

SakuLv - Dreamweaver

crimxsonx wrote: »

Most scary class in nw imo is psychic,i've seen psychic holding nw alone vs 20 5 mins,he was freaken unkillable in the same time 1,2 shoting his opponents, among those 20 ppl were good geared ones as well but couldnt do ****,i think his name was _Eclipse_ or something like that.Archer is easy mode class.b:victory


PS:here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dUQAPwvPMc Enjoy!

i have seen archers and mystic holding 20 ppl and winning

r9rr +12 of course

jhktwentythree

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The stealth keeps you stationary, requiring you to use your leaps, which you HAVE to be withing 20 meters of your target to use if they run away you're standing there.

The leaps were long overdue tbh and we should be able to leap in all directions not just left and right.

Sage Wizards have AoE on their Force of Will don't wanna hear it, similar aoe range no chi cost and no range minimum of 18 meters. Which is an interrupt and a seal. I shouldn't even have to bring up Mystics....

Plenty of other classes have 35 meter range attacks and for archers YOU need to be sage to basically get that. Also Galvanic Charge/Aura skill costs 2 sparks and has a stupid long cast time. Lets also consider Barb's Berserker's Wrath, 35 meter attack with a 20 meter splash range after that 35 meters. Does triple damage to airborne targets and can GoF.

Purge doesn't go off on skills with effects, BMs, Seekers, Sins, and Barbs can GoF on almost all of their attacks not to mention GoF has a 30% proc rate.

Wings of Grace is one of our few good skills. LA has the worst defensive stats in the game. End game casters and HA classes have better Pdef and Mdef then us. Also better damage output due to that 100 multiplier.

Crit is a chance and you need to have above 50% to crit semi consistently.

Please bring less ignorance to your argument next time, fail troll.

Yea archers should be the only class to leap all directions because people like you who play archers find it so hard to turn to the right direction to apply leaps just like what BM and Wizard have to live with. b:cry

Yea Sage Wizard's Force of Will deals damage everyone in a 25m line and silence them and only needs 0.6 cast time right??! Whisper Shot can be have max range and 3m AoE effect and interupt, silence 5 seconds for all you know people like you will still complain about it!

Yea 35m=34m b:pleased nice knowledge for an archer!

LoL GoF 30% proc rate? You sure you know anything about the game or you making a point you want quick shot proc rate to be higher than GoF? Oh wait its already 100% for Sage 50% for Demon. b:bye

Even in full buff Arcanes have lower HP and huge gap in evasion. When unbuffed, Arcanes have lower physical defense and HP, major gap in evasion!

Dude if you wanna QQ about class differences at least DON'T bring up anything that archers have an advantage in please don't look stupid for the other archers.

opkossy

jhktwentythree wrote: »

Even in full buff Arcanes have lower HP and huge gap in evasion. When unbuffed, Arcanes have lower HP, major gap in evasion and physical defense!

I was mostly just chuckling and gonna ignore the post. Then it got to this point. Thanks for the laugh from seeing you seriously use this as a point. I needed that.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Evasion sucks unless you have my luck

Caster self buffs can go back on instantly (SELF buffs), giving them back their physical and magic defense

Whisper shot is 1 spark, must be cast at 18m range (much closer than archers will usually be). 1 spark is an extremely high cost for any class except maybe sins

Here's a self buffed R8/G14 demon wizard http://pwcalc.com/07548ff30a67223b. It has higher base pdef and mdef than my full G16 archer (6.49k p 7.1k m.). Its HP will obviously change once it is G16 and outclass me more. Meanwhile it can put 50 more points toward its damage stat than I can, and have a 33% higher rate of return for its damage stat (100 pt/ multiplier vs 150/multiplier)

jhktwentythree

OPKossy wrote: »

I was mostly just chuckling and gonna ignore the post. Then it got to this point. Thanks for the laugh from seeing you seriously use this as a point. I needed that.

Edited now to..

"Even in full buff Arcanes have lower HP and huge gap in evasion. When unbuffed, Arcanes have lower physical defense and HP, major gap in evasion!"

Fact is unbuffed they have lower pdef, evasion and HP!

opkossy

Self-buffed, they'll have equal or greater P.def.
Self-buffed, they'll have lower evasion which won't matter because they can't miss period while the archer can, regardless of how miniscule the chance is (EVERY archer has horror stories of failing some critical skill on a caster due to a miss).
Self-buffed, they'll have greater M.def
Self-buffed, they'll have slightly lower HP.


Advantage: Caster on 3/4 defensive fronts without accounting for added variables (IE: genie, gear, and so on). Your rebuttal?


Fact is LA is the worst defensive armor in the game... as has been proven too many times for me to bother searching.

jhktwentythree

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Evasion sucks unless you have my luck

Caster self buffs can go back on instantly (SELF buffs), giving them back their physical and magic defense

Whisper shot is 1 spark, must be cast at 18m range (much closer than archers will usually be). 1 spark is an extremely high cost for any class except maybe sins

Here's a self buffed R8/G14 demon wizard http://pwcalc.com/07548ff30a67223b. It has higher base pdef and mdef than my full G16 archer (6.49k p 7.1k m.). Its HP will obviously change once it is G16 and outclass me more. Meanwhile it can put 50 more points toward its damage stat than I can, and have a 33% higher rate of return for its damage stat (100 pt/ multiplier vs 150/multiplier)

What about weapon attack stats and refinement returns? Pretty sure physical weapons gain much more from refinement and overall their weapon attack is higher.

At 0 refines

Firmament 1410-2619 12: +1312

Requiem 1431-1749 12: +1050

Go look at the differences from weapon attack and tell me why no caster complains about this unlike other heavy and light armored class always bring up this 100/150 attack multiplier argument.

If cast time and critical hit% and weapon attack are the same then you can make a case about 100/150 multiplier. But clearly these are preset differences between heavy, light and arcane.

And really you wanna bring up about 50 more attributes? What about the fact that light armored helmets give more HP than arcane ones, let's not talk about rest of armors shall we. With more attributes now from reincarnations the significance of 50 more attributes is lower than before.

opkossy

jhktwentythree wrote: »

What about weapon attack stats and refinement returns? Pretty sure physical weapons gain much more from refinement and overall their weapon attack is higher.

At 0 refines

Firmament 1410-2619 12: +1312

Requiem 1431-1749 12: +1050

Go look at the differences from weapon attack and tell me why no caster complains about this unlike other heavy and light armored class always bring up this 100/150 attack multiplier argument.

If cast time and critical hit% and weapon attack are the same then you can make a case about 100/150 multiplier. But clearly these are preset differences between heavy, light and arcane.

And really you wanna bring up about 50 more attributes? What about the fact that light armored helmets give more HP than arcane ones, let's not talk about rest of armors shall we. With more attributes now from reincarnations the significance of 50 more attributes is lower than before.

That post is silly and misinformed or intentionally misdirectional.


A caster with 1k magic (possible now via rebirth) Will have 10x that 2.8k weapon damage.
A physical class with 900 str/dex (they can't get 1k because they have to add more str or dex to wear their armors than casters need to devote for their armors... and that's without accounting for weapon requirements in the case of seeker/BM which would drop that str even lower.... essentially I'm making a best case for the physical class that isn't even possible at the moment) gets 6x their 3.9k.

28k vs (an impossible to attain) 23.6k. Hmm... I wonder where the advantage lies here.... really difficult to tell which number is bigger. b:chuckle

jhktwentythree

OPKossy wrote: »

Self-buffed, they'll have equal or greater P.def.
Self-buffed, they'll have lower evasion which won't matter because they can't miss period while the archer can, regardless of how miniscule the chance is (EVERY archer has horror stories of failing some critical skill on a caster due to a miss).
Self-buffed, they'll have greater M.def
Self-buffed, they'll have slightly lower HP.


Advantage: Caster on 3/4 defensive fronts without accounting for added variables (IE: genie, gear, and so on). Your rebuttal?


Fact is LA is the worst defensive armor in the game... as has been proven too many times for me to bother searching.

Yea self-buffed venomancer has more pdef than archers right only when they're in fox form.

How about other defensive fronts you clearly conveniently do not wanna bring up?

Immunity

Anti-stun

Anti-ailments/debuffs

Chi restoration

Damage reduction

All these light armors classes have almost all if not all of these statuses from self buffs but clearly they aren't a factor in defense. b:shutup

Pretty sure plenty of caster will gladly give exchange abit of what they have for those.

OPKossy wrote: »

That post is silly and misinformed or intentionally misdirectional.


A caster with 1k magic (possible now via rebirth) Will have 10x that 2.8k weapon damage.
A physical class with 900 str/dex (they can't get 1k because they have to add more str or dex to wear their armors than casters need to devote for their armors... and that's without accounting for weapon requirements in the case of seeker/BM which would drop that str even lower.... essentially I'm making a best case for the physical class that isn't even possible at the moment) gets 6x their 3.9k.

28k vs (an impossible to attain) 23.6k. Hmm... I wonder where the advantage lies here.... really difficult to tell which number is bigger. b:chuckle

I never said they have higher base attack as a result but if you wanna bring up differences in 100/150 attack modifier please lay it all out don't just bring up one side of the story.

People here wanna complain about that attack modifier right but they don't bring up the fact that they have other things going for them offensively, much lower cast time than casters and much better returns from stat's lowering interval between attack and so on. So really why do they want everything they don't have?

opkossy

jhktwentythree wrote: »

Yea self-buffed venomancer has more pdef than archers right only when they're in fox form.

How about other defensive fronts you clearly conveniently do not wanna bring up?

Immunity

Anti-stun

Anti-ailments/debuffs

Chi restoration

Damage reduction

All these light armors classes have almost all if not all of these statuses from self buffs but clearly they aren't a factor in defense. b:shutup

Pretty sure plenty of caster will gladly give exchange abit of what they have for those.

I already covered immunity the last time someone tried to pick at veno vs archer.

Great on you to bring up anti-stun. In a caster vs archer, guess which side will be better able to CC? It's not the archer. Anti-debuffs? Well archer has spark purify like every other class. Casters, have superior methods. Chi restoration? If Awaken hadn't been given a needed buff that would also go to casters. As is, it's actually fairly balanced (advantage overall goes to casters, though) taking into account all factors. Damage reduction.... really? Really? Lol.


I play both sides of the fence and fact is, when I want to faceroll in relatively equal gear? I'm on a caster. When I want to challenge myself with tough fight where I'm disadvantaged? Archer.

Sint - Harshlands

jhktwentythree wrote: »

What about weapon attack stats and refinement returns? Pretty sure physical weapons gain much more from refinement and overall their weapon attack is higher.

At 0 refines

Firmament 1410-2619 12: +1312

Requiem 1431-1749 12: +1050

Go look at the differences from weapon attack and tell me why no caster complains about this unlike other heavy and light armored class always bring up this 100/150 attack multiplier argument.

If cast time and critical hit% and weapon attack are the same then you can make a case about 100/150 multiplier. But clearly these are preset differences between heavy, light and arcane.

And really you wanna bring up about 50 more attributes? What about the fact that light armored helmets give more HP than arcane ones, let's not talk about rest of armors shall we. With more attributes now from reincarnations the significance of 50 more attributes is lower than before.

You realize, of course, that aracanes skillspam, whereas archers can't. This means they get dmg bonuses on every hit, whereas archers get only their base damage. Arcanes have much better defenses, added to better returns from their dmg stat, so even with the same amount of points in their dmg stat, arcanes are going to hit back around 66% harder than archers hit them. This is massive, because the dmg increase makes it so a lot more people are inside your 1shot range, crit or noncrit. This is with standard moves only. Most mages, however, have a skill to increase their damage. So your 1shot range gets even larger. This is, of course, massive, because if you fail to 1shot someone, the time it takes you to kill that person will usually triple (or worse, if you were relying on surprise/vanishing conditions) So dealing with little/medium nuisances is much easier. An archer has one short stun which can miss or fail. Likewise, immobilize can miss or fail. Mage skills can't miss. Mages are also a lot harder to block. Where Expelling yourself is a very effective way of stopping an archer from killing you, it won't stop a mage. You'll have to make yourself either immune to everything, or have your genie set up to block a very specific kind of damage. As you probably know, making yourself immune to everything is a much more resource intensive move than expelling yourself.


Finally (this is mostly 1 v 1), mages can usually set things up so they deal massive damage, meaning they can bypass a dificult target's charm. Bypassing a charm is almost never an option for an archer at endgame, so if your target is hard to kill, you're going to have to keep them off your *** for the 15ish seconds it's going to take you to bludgeon through their charm and as you will have noticed if you play an archer, if you need someone to stay in your range, off your ***, and unable to interrupt you for 15 seconds, you're in for a bad time. If aranes can't bypass, you'll notice they have ZTP, which means they can drop as many skills as they can quickly press on you in about as much time as it takes to press them. ZTP does very little for archers (especially against mages), and i guarantee you won't like what happens if you try crimson soul powder instead.

jhktwentythree wrote: »

Yea self-buffed venomancer has more pdef than archers right only when they're in fox form.

How about other defensive fronts you clearly conveniently do not wanna bring up?

Immunity

Anti-stun

Anti-ailments/debuffs

Chi restoration

Damage reduction

All these light armors classes have almost all if not all of these statuses from self buffs but clearly they aren't a factor in defense. b:shutup

Pretty sure plenty of caster will gladly give exchange abit of what they have for those.



I never said they have higher base attack as a result but if you wanna bring up differences in 100/150 attack modifier please lay it all out don't just bring up one side of the story.

People here wanna complain about that attack modifier right but they don't bring up the fact that they have other things going for them offensively, much lower cast time than casters and much better returns from stat's lowering interval between attack and so on. So really why do they want everything they don't have?

Are you talking about archers or sins or both? Even if you're talking about sins, Anti ailments is a draw (at best).

Archers have no anti ailments. 3/5 mage classes can purify themselves, iirc. All of them have weapons that can purify them.

Antistuns go to casters because r9rr.

Immunity goes to archers unless your mage is: a veno, (full immunity) a psy (phys immunity) or a mystic (salvation buff).

Damage reduction: Clerics, Shell (close enough to phys immunity to make your damage not matter, 2/3 of the time) and a 50%(?) dmg reduction skill. Mystics: some % reduction skill. Most mages are also quite effective at healing themselves. Mages can sage spark if they really want the reduction buff icon.

Chi restoration... mages get more chi per hit, for a start, and most of them have good reasons to go sage, whereas archers do not. The only ones that need large amounts of chi to defend themselves are psys and venos, and even that is quite debatable.