State of PWI - January 2014

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

To be quite blunt, people are always going to whine and cry about something. You just can't please everyone. What PWE needs to do is look at what the vast majority of us want, and deliver it.

Only problem with this philosophy is, the "vast majority" participated in the very problems that caused the state of things today. R9 being released was a bad decision, but everyone who ate it up for fear of being outclassed in PVP supported that decision. Often it was out of the feeling that they had no choice, but many of them will try to justify that huge time/money investment to this day even if they disagreed with it. So what the vast majority wants can be hard to place.

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

I agree that power creep destroys the game. R9R3 is ridiculously OP, and there's not much in the world of PVE that's a challenge for them, which in turn makes them strictly PVP players. That also gets boring.

What we need is new content that challenges the R9R3's, and makes them feel mortal again. Hell, R9R3 users could probably slay Pan Gu himself. b:shocked

But therein lies the problem. If you make PVE content that challenges R9S3+12, it becomes impossible to complete for anyone wearing anything else. It's a case of breaking what isn't broken to match what's already broken, whereas the actual solution is to fix what was broken in the first place.

People who adopted R9, and later R9S3, didn't do so for PVE reasons. They did so in order to achieve (or in some cases, preserve) dominance in PVP. You can argue about the role of power creep in PVP all you like, but the last thing you want to do is break the PVE to match it.

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

Along side of that, the basis of the new starting area is good, I played around with it for a bit myself. But to be quite honest, it feels as if it was more of a second draft than a final draft. It wasn't horrible, so it wasn't a rough draft, but it definitely needs more refining.

I have mixed-to-negative feelings about the starter area. My key complaint is that the quests shouldn't give you any kind of significant exp. I made one character to complete the whole chain a month or so ago, and he walked out of there at Lv6. The devs would argue that the new area teaches the game, but I would disagree strongly. There's nothing educational about being given power (i.e. gear/skills) immediately only to have it taken away again. It needs to be a consistent growth curve from Lv1 (which is why any newbie would use those billion Fantasy Fruits they're given at their own peril).

Seeing as we already had such a growth curve at launch, the addition of the newbie area is entirely superfluous. It's really just a showcase of Archosaur Studios' skill in art and design... which, admittedly, is awesome, but there were much better ways they could've done that.

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

Aside from that, we really could use a revamp of old quests. They seem pointless, but that's largely due to the amount of people that simply powerlevel their way to 100, so if your like me, and try and do some quests, you feel like your lagging behind.

Speaking of FC, it's extremely difficult for those of us that want to run it in squads. I've been trying for like a week now, and no one runs FC in squads anymore.

The old quests have been given several "revamps" in the past... their exp rewards have been increased, they've been given extra money rewards in response to the devaluing of DQ items, the mob counts have been drastically decreased, and new quests have been generated for the midgame just to keep things fresh. As you stated, Frost powerleveling still renders it all pointless.

What needs to happen (on top of the obvious priority of removing Frost powerleveling) is an extra item reward for doing longer quests. For example, Mystic Verdant Jade as a reward for killing, say, 50 mobs for a lv100 quest. The mob count is important, as it keeps people in the field long enough to make squadding advantageous, and contributes to the image that our questing fields are populated. Of course, the botting system throws a wrench in all this, but that's another issue entirely.

I can't speak for the population of Raging Tides, but I know on HT and Dreamweaver you can form actual Frost squads. Hell, I'm looking for a good barb on Dreamweaver to do regular Frost runs with. So let me know if you ever roll there. XD

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

Very true, so I guess it would have to be a "leap-of-faith" type of thing, where they make the changes, and hope for the best.

Yeah, I'm in agreement that you'll never please everyone. The only thing you need to concern yourself is what will be good for the longevity of the game, rather than what will be good for a few vocal walking-wallets who just want to buy their way to victory. Contrary to popular belief, these two are NOT usually the same thing.

Also of note: PWI did well for its first year without any rep or packs in the boutique. Thus the rep-and-pack model can be roughly equated to slowly killing the goose that laid the golden egg. Probably by feeding it questionable steroids. :P

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

This is a valid point. I think it may be good to have a new instance which challenges R9R3 people, but make it so that it's for bragging rights only... at this point in time. This ties in to my other idea, which is simply make R9 a non-cash shop ordeal. What could be done is keep REP as a cash shop item, but make MOGs and GSTs part of the new DQ system, or something like that. This would eliminate some of the elitism from R9, while still allowing them to make money from rep. Rep isn't too bad to farm, or even overly expensive.

The problem is more fundamental than that. Keep in mind that R9 gears did not exist on launch, and even R8 was a pipe dream reserved only for the craziest of rep farmers (I don't think anyone ever got it legitimately back then). Nowadays, R8 doesn't even register a blip on the radar of a R9S3 user. So making it easier for everyone to get R9S3 just falls into that exact same problem of breaking what isn't broken to match the broken.

In a perfect world (lol), R9 in all its forms would be removed entirely for the sake of game balance. Of course PWE has invested far too much time and money for that to be easily viable, but something along those lines still needs to be discussed. One possible solution is to make a new server where rep is unobtainable through the cash shop.

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

I don't mind the fact that it gives you a few levels, but I agree about your point on the skills and gear. It's too OP for the area, and it also gives players the mindset that their more OP than they really are, so when they get to the mainland, their like... huh.

Yeah, for about two minutes. Then they get the Noble set from the lv2 armor quest, and "all is well again." Except it isn't, because you're supposed to be learning your limits in the low and mid levels, and the abundance of Dreamchaser gear is deterring people from that.

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

I do agree that questing definitely needs to come back, most of the map is dead. I never really even see people farm Heaven/Hell anymore, which to me just blows my mind. I think that if they added some kind of significant coin reward, that could be a good idea, because that would encourage people to actually play their toons more, instead of paying for a power leveling service all day.

Think about it. You get into a squad, run straight to last room, stand around like an idiot while some OP sin (typicially) kills the mobs and boss, then fire a few arrows at one shot mobs.

Too me, that's not playing the game. Your not learning your class, and it's a lot of money wasted (for a lot of people, it's buying Zen which supports this method), and not even fun.

A few months ago, we had a huge discussion, spanning several threads and more than one poll with over a thousand votes, on the issue of leveling and Frost abuse. Suffice it to say that this issue has been thoroughly discussed, and one conclusion that no one could refute is this: people will use/abuse the method that gives them the quickest results, regardless of its effect on game balance/longevity. It doesn't matter what goodies you throw at field questing. The only way that people would do it is if it offered quicker returns on exp than Frost abuse does, which would defeat the entire purpose. So while I agree that the item rewards on field questing should be buffed, it's all going to be moot until and unless Frost powerleveling is eliminated.

I've started to see people just dealing in big rooms exclusively, even at 80+. People don't even do the instance anymore. There's no word for it except laziness.

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

Oh, I agree. The needs of the few DO NOT outweigh the needs of the many, especially where an MMO is concerned. I think that's what this portion of your post really boils down to here.

Not as such. What I'm basically saying is, neither "the few" nor "the many" have any intrinsic claim to what would benefit the longevity of the game. I can think of plenty of situations in which the majority in a situation is totally, totally wrong. But the differences between the two don't have to be so volatile as they often are on these forums. What needs to happen is a lot of level-headed discussion, between many different forumers and the CM/GA team, and ultimately the CM/GAs need to come to a conclusion that best supports the game longevity in their view. Then that conclusion needs to be fought for across the pond by the CM.

But it's a very idealistic plan, I admit, because it basically requires the herding of cats that I mentioned previously. :P

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

I guess I should have elaborated further. If there is to be a complete overhaul of the game at some point in time, then R9 doesn't necessarily need to be removed, given that it's more available to everyone. I would envision a raise on the level cap, and an entire new endgame, complete with more gears, more instances, and more PVP events as well. Of course, this would be a LONG way off, and assumes that everything is more available to those that don't have a lot of money. Not saying that it'll just be given out to all the lazy folk, though. b:chuckle

I get the feeling that you and I aren't understanding each other here. What I'm saying is that, so long as R9 exists in its current forms, then PVE will be inherently unfixable and PVP inherently unbalanced due to the disparity between R9 gears and other gears. I'm oversimplifying a lot there, but that's the basic idea. No matter how easy you make it for people to obtain, you're still perpetuating a "standard" gear set that no one in their right mind would fail to use, while many other perfectly-usable gear sets sit unused.

So I guess what I don't understand is, how do you believe that making R9 more accessible will solve this problem?

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

I agree, power leveling needs to be crippled. However, I don't think that Frost or hypering in Frost needs to be removed. I personally think that running it in squads is amazing, it provides good examples of how squads need to work together, and teaches your role in a squad wonderfully.

I think one of the easiest fixes to this would to increase the nerf that occurs whenever your not in a 10 level range (Some people argue that 9 is best). This would prevent people level 101 from selling to the really low level people, although I also see a flaw due to rebirthing. They could simply dump their exp into a genie to stay one level forever, and be able to still sell.

Perhaps ensuring that you can't get into Frost until 90 would be the easiest way. Of course, then people would buy at 90+, like they do constantly on my server. Yeah... 90+ and still too lazy to run FC in squads. That leaves it so that I feed the habit simply so I can level as well. This goes back to your point about people buying r9 just so they can stay relevant. They kind of go hand-in-hand. God, what a mess... b:surrender

Heh, it's nice to see someone with unique ideas after that whole fracas from a few months ago. Increasing the level nerf is a good idea, although codewise it would be hard to implement (because that nerf is applied across all mob-killing activities, not just Frost).

I should point out that I wasn't suggesting that all hyper use in Frost be removed. In fact, the most popular option discussed last year was the restriction of entry to Frost until Level 75. This becomes the level at which you can feasibly do Frost with a full squad of like-leveled individuals. It wouldn't do anything about the 90+ who buy heads, but I'd be willing to bet that most of those people would ragequit well before 90 if they had to get there organically, without head-buying. :P

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

To be quite blunt, people are always going to whine and cry about something. You just can't please everyone. What PWE needs to do is look at what the vast majority of us want, and deliver it.

ehh, most of them just want something for the price of nothing, unsurprisingly such is ignored most of the time f:worry
Like a rural town to a new yorken city, the items were always there, just the people are the ones that made the usage and society run too fast. (farming, lvling) Much of the changes and catering done in the game ARE geared toward the 'midclass' i think, but the bling speed of the rich get to pple you end up with a crowd thinking that, that is the speed at which they are suppose to reach their goals. At that speed, no it doesnt cater to the majority :x

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

Of course, everyone has their own opinion of what is the right or wrong way to go about fixing the game. I agree that the best way to go about it is to get a group of individuals like you and I (AKA people who can carry on "level-headed discussion), along with the CM and GM, and discuss the various ideas that have been on forums, and their feasibility. I'm not able to comment on a coding standpoint, but from a business standpoint, that's another idea.

I agree with ligerking on this that we should get the "level-headed group or individuals" to somehow come to a reasonable discussion where we can somehow formulate ideas on how to fix the game.

Well, there are a lot of people who did pay for R9, along with the refines/etc that go along with it. So for them to remove it now might not be the best idea, it goes along with what you were saying that not everyone will agree on how to best fix the game.

I think that if the level cap was raised, and more content that challenges the power of R9, then balance could be restored. To put it in the most vague of terms, it would involve trying to create a balance that involves r9, so that the gap between gears is lessened.

I don't have a full plan, but this is a discussion for a completely different thread. I hope this makes more sense.

This is probably where we might butt heads or clash opinions. But no matter how you slice it or compromise on the R9 gear, it still boils down to this: "how did the game get broken in the first place?" First was the anniversary packs that started it, but R9 is what really broke the game to begin with so the only possible solution is to eliminate R9 completely with all its stages. If you keep adding instances that are only suited for r9, those tht are under r9 will just simply quit cause they too want to participate in the new things too not just the OP geared. So if ya add new content that only caters to the OP majority, you totally go against the reason why we want the game fixed in the first place. Like this quote says: " cant get a flow of water less ya open the flood gates."

I would think it's definitely possible to increase the nerf ONLY in Frost. As far as I'm aware, anything is possible with programming, only thing is if your willing to go through the effort to do so. Again, I'm not very great with programming, but I would think it's possible.

For as frost is concerned, the only way i see is to only put a lvl cap on it regardless of the whining, crying and complaining. plvling has to also be eliminated if pw is to survive otherwise it defys the purpose that we are trying to accomplish.

You also mentioned bout raising the lvl cap, from what i know is that it cant be done cause of how the china devs crunched the lvls 100-150 into 100-105. So even if players did ask for a lvl cap raise, they still couldnt do it cause of this very reason.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

From a business standpoint it would be a negative impact, for sure. How much of a negative impact depends on who you ask - if you ask a R9 user, they'll tell you it would be nothing short of apocalyptic. Personally, I'm of the mind that it would initially be a blow to the population before things stabilize in a healthier form.

EDIT:

It was "morally wrong" to introduce R9 in the first place. We need to remember that this is an MMO, MMOs do change, and that there are no sacred cows. Those of us who didn't go R9 were no less offended by its presence and its disastrous effect on balance than they themselves would be if it were removed.

You are aware that PWE/I adopts a pay-per-item business model, and that it has to generate them money or no game, once the pay-per-item business model stops working on a particular game then chances are its days are numbered. The R9ers keep this game F2P

This was why packs were brought out, this was why R9 was brought out, this is why anything in the boutique is brought out as they know people will spend ridiculous amounts of real cash trying to be "the best." They won't nerf or remove R9 all they will do is bring out something bigger, badder, faster and better so the people that spent mortgages on R9 will refinance the house for R10/G17 or what ever it will be called.

Now that being said I'm in agreement with you, something does need to be done and I think its commendable that many people in this thread still feel passionate about the game after 5 years. But for anything to stand a chance you need to remember the business model and it needs to adhere to it or it won't happen.

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

@Miugre Yes, why don't we start talking in PMs. Sparkie is still settling in, and so far, he's off to a great start.

As for the r9 discussion, and what needs to be done with it, that's why we'd have this group, to figure out what needs to be done to fix the game. I guess we'll figure out the details more in PMs. Maybe my idea will make more sense in time.

@SonofAnarchy Yes, this is the current business model. This game had, and still has, the potential to be one of the best subscription based games on the market, if they ever choose to go back to that model. I would think they would even be able to outshine the most famous of all subscription based MMOs, the one that gave PWCN the idea to add Kung-Fu Pandas into our game. Just because they have a current business model, doesn't mean that it can't change. Whether it becomes the old way, where there is micro transactions that don't involve the pay-to-win attitude, or if they become sub-based, who knows. Hell, they could even take both routes.

Most of the MMOs are adopting this business model, even ones that were subscription based. Even the big obvious subscription based MMO one has been shedding customers at an alarming rate so I doubt PWE would go the other way, that being said as far as I'm aware its still subscription based in China and makes them a fair bit of cash so they could always try it. Would people be willing to pay having had 5years of free? I know I would if it levels the playing field. I used to cash shop but realised it was a cash sink I could well do without, I don't have R9 nor would I pay to get it, I have more important things to do with my hard earned money

If anything they should maybe perhaps have micro-tasks, kinda like crowdflower (microtasking site and not a game for any eagle eyed MODS b:chuckle,) where the population could do something on a daily and weekly basis that would provide a small amount of gold, the more tasks you do the more you gather. I understand someone might say "isnt that grinding" it is and it isn't, I think people would be more inclined to do tasks for gold rather than coin to then watch most of it vanish as you pay a higher coin/gold transfer rate and a fee to AH.

I think, and I have mentioned this in another thread, there is a growing trend of a move from PC Gaming to mobile platform gaming and with PWE now launching a console department to port the PC games to console now that China has lifted a ban on consoles I think whilst your ideas and attempts are well minded and defo well needed they may well be energy wasted.

I hope not though

I haven't heard of any PWE console games (and I'm pretty sure SonOfAnarchy is talking about console games published by PWE, not PWI being released for a console), but they recently released a phone/PDA/tablet game, Eternal Kingdoms.

SonofAnarchy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You are aware that PWE/I adopts a pay-per-item business model, and that it has to generate them money or no game, once the pay-per-item business model stops working on a particular game then chances are its days are numbered. The R9ers keep this game F2P

This was why packs were brought out, this was why R9 was brought out, this is why anything in the boutique is brought out as they know people will spend ridiculous amounts of real cash trying to be "the best." They won't nerf or remove R9 all they will do is bring out something bigger, badder, faster and better so the people that spent mortgages on R9 will refinance the house for R10/G17 or what ever it will be called.

Now that being said I'm in agreement with you, something does need to be done and I think its commendable that many people in this thread still feel passionate about the game after 5 years. But for anything to stand a chance you need to remember the business model and it needs to adhere to it or it won't happen.

You say that you agree that something needs to be done to fix the game but when it comes to removing r9, your totally against it. Sounds like someone who cant make up their mind too well. Plus like LigerKing said earlier, the pwi business model doesnt have to be held hostage by game breaking gear such as r9, matchless wings cape/cape of assension. He also mentioned that if r9 is to stick around, that it would need to be severly nerfed or somehow to increase the stats and bonus adds on r8/nirvana s2. So if r9 was to be nerfed, the bonus stats would get a decrease in atk lvls since with full r9s3 ya get over 100 atk lvls with the jones blessing alone. Not to mention having bout 40k hp buffed on a r9s3 +12 w/ primal stones, so how can you say that keeping r9 that pw wont somehow or someway nerf this gear since we also have now the more increased game breaking jades. (JoSD and Deity)

Also if they did bring in something faster, better, badder, etc into the game, you would be looking at a pretty desolate game area since pw makes up the vast majority of us players as Crixxix said, light cashshoppers. So if you get rid of them, all the rich snobby kids wont have anyone to play with except for other players of their attitude nature.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Not that this is representative of my opinion lets play a devils advocate if you will. Most of this is quite obvious.

PWE is a business. Business 101 is make profits. So if I was them I would look after my customers. People like yourself who aren't contributing to their profits are their consumers so your views, needs, wants are likely to be ignored. Sad truth of life.

If all players such as yourself were to quit tomorrow, it would make not one tiny bit of difference to PWE.

Unfortunately PWI is not the balanced casual game it used to be, there is a massive power creep, and I think players of your calibre (old timers casual non farmer non cs'er non merchant) are finding this power creep especially hard to deal with, especially now that its starting to affect the the previously enshrined PvE aspect of the game.

Which is quite sad really, I've lost a few good friends who just didnt want to play anymore.

Unfortunatley or fortunately (depending on what side you're on) PWE is looking after it's customers and what they want, so the majority of this thread and ideas you guys are coming up with will go unnoticed.

Even though a company's roll is to make a profit, but if that profit is out of sync with the balance of power such as r9, then if they keep on putting in game breaking gear the game itself will ultimately crash. You also claim that ppl like us who are contributing to their profits based on views, needs and wants will get ignored. Id like to say the opposite will happen, Us old timers who contribute little will have a bigger chance of changing the state of the game more than the minority of those that want to keep r9 as a valid gear set.

So if the vast majority of players like us old timers were to quit tomorrow, you would probably find a deserted game except for players like yourself who do nothing to contribute towards the change that pw desperately needs. I do admit that there is a power creep and it does need to be brought to a halt somehow, but claiming how pw isnt the once balanced game it once was when it can still become balanced again if the vast majority of us want balance. Plus a responce of how us old timer players are having a hard time dealing with the power creep, that is hardly the fact. We know how to deal with the power creep, just that pw has been catering all this time to those with the biggest paycheck, wallet and credit card player types.

SonofAnarchy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lets look at what happened when PWE gave people the horse that cost so many attendance sheets to earn. People had been duly logging in day after day to earn the horse, lots were unhappy. Can you imagine you've been farming 6 months for a R9 piece only for it to vanish or mean nothing?

but thats redundant. It happens in any mmo game F2P or subscription where old pieces become easier to obtain. I remember when i peeked in another mmo and they were handing out dynamis xarc drops (something that was hard to farm as **** taking 6-1yr to get) as a event freebie 10 at a time.... The only diff. is that because its F2P game, the change is a bit faster due to diff. factors involved.

Crixxix - Raging Tide wrote: »

So, just to let everyone know... something is being started which might give us a chance to change things. Completely player driven.

prayers? f:cute

honestly? i feel like my toon has no point. i tried to make a pk cleric but with 5 aps sage sins with zerk crit and damage all from one stat and a gazillion points or archers built along the same line i have no chance and my gear is phenomenal plus i am skilled. forget about barbs everyone just decided to accept it's okay for them not to be able to be 1v1'd by anyone anymore. this game has me completely annoyed and the lack of any real change in the trend to make certain classes op is just plain ridiculous. pwi will get no more of my time or my money. ut then again the rest of you will stay play and pay then come here and post why they not trying to fix things all the while signing over your paycheck.