Genie Skill- Celestial Sword

Senel - Dreamweaver
Senel - Dreamweaver Posts: 46 Arc User
edited November 2013 in Archer
Hello Fellow Archers,

Maybe theres a thread about this that I might not know of but not to long ago I recently discovered that if you have a R9 Bow or R8 Recast Bow with Spirit Blackhole, the genie skill Celestial Sword can proc your Purge. It's a very risky skill because it consumes all your genies energy but can be spammed rapidly even if genies has 2 energy's on it. I saw this archer in my server using the skill and while he was he was in the process of kiting away from the person he was dueling, his purge went off without using any auto attacks or skills just Celestial Sword and I found that very interesting. To simply put, I got the skill to test out what I saw, and yes just spamming Celestial sword will proc the purge just like if you were auto attacking.

I can see this skill work nicely on a 1v1 but when in NW or TW pretty useless. Now it does have it's disadvantages like for example you wont be able to use ur other genie skills. basically you can use this skill to increase your purge proc from your weapon.

I'll let others discuss the advantages and disadvantages of it.
Post edited by Senel - Dreamweaver on
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Comments

  • smexybabe
    smexybabe Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Sounds OP lol.
  • Jarkhen - Archosaur
    Jarkhen - Archosaur Posts: 990 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Blowing your genie is just asking to get *****. I can see it perhaps being useful if you already have a dead genie, but you're still preventing it from regenning.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I guess it depends on what class you're fighting. Most classes apply way too much pressure for you to survive without using genie.
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  • _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver
    _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    See this.

    It works for any proc that is based on triggering for attacks. (GoF, SS, Spirit blackhole, soul shatter, etc).
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary
    Asterelle - Sanctuary Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    It still has a 1 second cooldown like all genie skills. That means the time it takes to purge would be similar to just firing normal arrows. Given how reliant archers are on genie I don't think it's really viable.
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  • Senel - Dreamweaver
    Senel - Dreamweaver Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    See this.

    It works for any proc that is based on triggering for attacks. (GoF, SS, Spirit blackhole, soul shatter, etc).

    Ah so there was a post about it after all, still interesting but risky as I mentioned but I think with archers having anti-stun skill + speed buff they could be fine if they are tanky enough. My gear isn't all that great so it's a risk but to be honest the only time I use my genie is to either holy path to kite or use the skill faith to purify myself and will Surge. But once you land that almost guaranteed purge with the help of celestial sword that you want, you wont be needed to use celestial sword because you got that fast purge off of it. After all the key is to completely purge the target right?

    As someone said it really depends what class your fighting but also how you utilize your skills, I'm still exploring with it so I can share my experiences with it since not many archer know about it. I can tell you one thing though, my purges go off a lot quicker than usual with Celestial Sword
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  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Someobody finally made a post about it lol. The class that benefits the most isn't archers. They already, as you said, have ranged purge. But what about a sin with 30m range purge? A barb? A bm? When fighting people where the fight doesn't begin till you purge... then we are looking at a potentially viable strategy.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Sins and barbs can probably actually get away with trying to survive 1v1 on an empty genie. Although sins would have to wield bow...and that's awkward as most of their skills are dagger only. Barbs can just use a purge hammer, but it's not like barbs can't purge already.
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  • DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver
    DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Anyone that had done any research on genie skill mechanics would already know this, unfortunately what happens with the passage of time things considered 'common knowledge' are forgotton and relearnt.

    I think it has it uses though I wouldnt really say archers are the optimal class to benefit from it. We already have ranged purge and it slightly increases the odds of purging with the disadvantage of blowing out your genie. Considering my genie is primarily for defense...

    Bm's and barbs however who are pretty tanky in their own right I see the potential for 'abuse' here as they can simply equip a purge pole and chase the target spamming that till the purge and using this increases their purge chance enough to warrant the dead genie, and stand the most to gain from landing a purge in this way.

    Senel abused this on me in fridays NW to varied success but in some cases I purged him before his genie and bow could purge me. :D Video here

    However for situations where purging a target is pretty much required or very important to kill them, the tanky peoples, I can see it being useful.
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  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    The ideal way to use this would be to blow your genie FIRST with other skills, then use celestial sword. From what I can tell, a barb or bm would do their chi-burning skills on genie first, then spam celestial sword for a fast purge. Nasty.
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  • tsyfall
    tsyfall Posts: 9
    edited November 2013
    From a defensive player's perspective, the purge classes of BM, barbarian, archer, and to a lesser extent assassins, suffer just too much from emptying genie like this. Even from where I come from, where people are stupidly tanky, to have no genie is to die.

    Think about it this way: You can choose to attempt a genie purge, but you empty your genie.
    or....
    You use your genie for defense, live longer, have longer periods of time for purging.
    You might say "equal" chances of purging for both situations, but the 2nd way is significantly less risky.

    And for assassins, I'd say it's easier to simply unCoTD and whip out a purge bow. Hell knows its easy to freeze lock. The only kind of situation where a % genie purge is nice is the Eruption Fist on the skill for Longevity genies, which Aeliah has already shown us.
  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    A tactic like this is clearly not suited to defensive playstyle. However, I've always thought that sometimes offense is better than defense.

    Take for example a recent Nation Wars I fought in. I was against 10 undergeared players in a capture the flag map. There were plenty of assassins and bms, but only one veno, whom I slept the whole way into flag capture. The assassins tried their best, but ultimately they were one shots to me (they didn't have chance to use genie anyways), and they just kept giving me purify proc with their low damage. They cannot kill me when I'm buffed. However, if some of them had been beyond my max range (my range is 28, celestial sword is 30) spamming celestial sword for purges (or even using bow + celestial sword at same time, maybe with ironguard in) you can see how powerful this might be. Ironheart. Purged off. Charm ticked. Plume shell. Purged. Vanguard spirit. Purged, stunned. This isn't just made-up either, I've experienced this often... its the equivalent of having 2 archers with purge bows hitting you at the same time. Not many people can survive that, right?

    Just look at the video Dark showed. When you have an abundance of purges, what often happens is this: person starts hitting you, you start hitting back. You get purged first (the odds say this'll happen more often than you, the archer, purging them). You put in wings of grace. That gets purged too. Maybe a few people around join in and suddenly you are in a big trouble.

    Its suicidal... yes. But sometimes a risky gamble for a fast kill works better than a stolid defensive approach that cycles through your chi and apoth and genie carefully. Those weak dps sins could never kill me using a defensive approach. But by putting everything into super offense, they *might* just have a chance.

    So yeah its situational. But it is far from useless. When you are much weaker than your enemy, when you outnumber your enemy, or when you are stupidly tanky enough/slippery enough to get away with not having genie for a while, then a hyper-offensive fast purge strategy using Celestial Sword can yield amazing results.

    Edit: I should also point out one more important point. Celestial Sword carries through any bonus magic damage buff you have on at the time, like the 15s fire bonus from demon Blazing Arrow, or the Wood damage apoth, or condensed thorn water damage. Then, when you use the genie skill, it actually HURTS! I've seen a demon archer using blazing arrow and then Celestial swords, and the Celestial sword was doing over 1k per hit noncrit to a r9rr barb. With 50% + crit rate, you are looking at some serious damage over 10 seconds.

    Now imagine if a cleric could use this trick...

    muahahaha!
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  • Senel - Dreamweaver
    Senel - Dreamweaver Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Anyone that had done any research on genie skill mechanics would already know this, unfortunately what happens with the passage of time things considered 'common knowledge' are forgotton and relearnt.

    I think it has it uses though I wouldnt really say archers are the optimal class to benefit from it. We already have ranged purge and it slightly increases the odds of purging with the disadvantage of blowing out your genie. Considering my genie is primarily for defense...

    Bm's and barbs however who are pretty tanky in their own right I see the potential for 'abuse' here as they can simply equip a purge pole and chase the target spamming that till the purge and using this increases their purge chance enough to warrant the dead genie, and stand the most to gain from landing a purge in this way.

    Senel abused this on me in fridays NW to varied success but in some cases I purged him before his genie and bow could purge me. :D Video here

    However for situations where purging a target is pretty much required or very important to kill them, the tanky peoples, I can see it being useful.

    Hahaha that was a fun NW indeed was hard taking you down even with Purge but those JosD really help you take a good hit after purge. I indeed I need to work on my gear more in order to take your hits since I only got Flawless Shards in my gear but really good fight, Was the 1st time I ever went against you but I learned my mistakes from that video. Thanks for the awesome fight DarkSkiesx!! d-(^_^)z

    But I have to agree, sometime you have to take risk if you want to take your opponent down even if it cost all your genies energy and as Aeliah said believe it or not Celestial Sword does a considerable amount of damage I was fighting Heartz in NW and was spamming Celestial Sword and was doing about 700-900 damage and thanks to that and purge I was able to take him down. Was funny cuz we both killed each other at the same time and if I can remember Celestial Sword did the last finishing damage for the kill was kinda cool.
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  • DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver
    DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited November 2013

    Now imagine if a cleric could use this trick...

    muahahaha!

    I'm sure you will find a way.. b:shocked
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  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I'm sure you will find a way.. b:shocked

    A heavy armor cleric could do it by sacrificing roughly 50 additional stat points (tt99 pole, 245 str 107 dext requirements, heavy armor requires similar str points and 54 dext). I, however, will never be able to, lol. For me to do it would require gear I don't have and stat reallocation that I'm not willing to do, since the heavy armor build suffers too much offensively for my tastes.

    If one day a weapon arises with a much lower stat point requirement though... who knows? For now though, safe to say that few to no arcanes will use Celestial Sword to purge.
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  • SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver
    SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver Posts: 400 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    A heavy armor cleric could do it by sacrificing roughly 50 additional stat points (tt99 pole, 245 str 107 dext requirements, heavy armor requires similar str points and 54 dext). I, however, will never be able to, lol. For me to do it would require gear I don't have and stat reallocation that I'm not willing to do, since the heavy armor build suffers too much offensively for my tastes.

    If one day a weapon arises with a much lower stat point requirement though... who knows? For now though, safe to say that few to no arcanes will use Celestial Sword to purge.

    Very interesting indeed. When I got my emperor tome I tossed up the idea of keeping the stat points so that I could wear my BMs purge pole or to revert everything into magic. I chose the latter opting for more matk that I sorely lack. It certainly gives me something to think about for next year when we are able to reincarnate as I will have a further 72 stat points to play with in my build and it may be that I go with this option to be able to purge.
  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    The description says every str point doubles damage.

    o.0

    But what if I made a 100 str genie? Does that mean I will deal 50*(2^100) damage (6.34*10^31 damage lol)

    unless the description is inaccurate, which it probably is

    EDIT: Multiplier doesn't seem to work as described. Nvm
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  • Burnout - Harshlands
    Burnout - Harshlands Posts: 2,585 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    The description says every str point doubles damage.

    o.0

    But what if I made a 100 str genie? Does that mean I will deal 50*(2^100) damage (6.34*10^31 damage lol)

    unless the description is inaccurate, which it probably is

    EDIT: Multiplier doesn't seem to work as described. Nvm

    It also says it has a 10 second cooldown, can't miss (technically at low enough energy it can), but none of those apply to the skill.

    Its amazing how badly documented a few rare genie skills are, for example, some genie skills actually apply a root even though they don't say so. Most skills are fine though.
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  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Takes atk level into account too, it seems

    Definitely nowhere as strong as it claims. 176 stam. used with 5 str to deal 845 damage doesn't add up

    there goes my dream of hitting r9rrs for damage with 30 zeroes b:sad
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  • MrJohnDoe - Dreamweaver
    MrJohnDoe - Dreamweaver Posts: 103 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Someobody finally made a post about it lol. The class that benefits the most isn't archers. They already, as you said, have ranged purge. But what about a sin with 30m range purge? A barb? A bm? When fighting people where the fight doesn't begin till you purge... then we are looking at a potentially viable strategy.

    I tried a couple days ago and wasting all your genie stam is a waste, better just to use the bow, you have to wear it so celestial sword can make it proc, why not just toss arrows, sin's range is 20m not 30 or maybe i missed something, i think for bm's and barb's using poles they need to be in wep range so it procs, so then again a waste, only if you are slow and maybe you can get a few hits advantage with celestial sword.
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  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I tried a couple days ago and wasting all your genie stam is a waste, better just to use the bow, you have to wear it so celestial sword can make it proc, why not just toss arrows, sin's range is 20m not 30 or maybe i missed something, i think for bm's and barb's using poles they need to be in wep range so it procs, so then again a waste, only if you are slow and maybe you can get a few hits advantage with celestial sword.

    Nah... as long as you are wearing purge wep you can get a purge from up to 30 meters away, no matter what the range of the weapon is. I've purged from 30m on my assassin.

    Think of any group fight you've been in where you couldn't see all of the enemies at once. When somebody shoots arrows at you, you can see the direction the arrows came from. When a bm whacks you with a pole, he's right in your face, you can hardly fail to notice him. But often you can't tell who is doing the celestial sword. It could be any physical dd within 30 meters, and if everybody is using a fashion weapon, the purge weapon will be obscured. That person could be hiding behind a rock or tree. They could be high in the air above you. You could even be looking at the person and still not tell if they are doing the celestial sword sometimes (sometimes there's an animation above the head of the person doing it, and sometimes strangely enough there isn't, and I'm not sure as to what conditions govern this yet).

    There's another really big advantage to this. No other method of purging allows you to continually attempt purge while MOVING. On my assassin for lolz, I put in windpush then bow, and ran a giant circle around this one barb, attempting purge all the while. Then when I got the purge he went human form, anti stun to rebuff hp and titans. I purged that off too, sparked, daggers, teleported in. An archer friend of mine puts in wings of grace and kites backwards from approaching melees while attempting purges the entire way, and as soon as he gets that purge he can fire off a stun and debuff combo. Sometimes the target has to immediately blow their belief or ad to survive the combo that follows, so the tradeoff really isn't as bad as you'd think at all.

    Get it already, hyper offensive sometimes works really well. Not that its even to my advantage to persuade people of this (I don't benefit from celestial sword one bit), but its simply a fact.
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  • DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
    DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited November 2013

    There's another really big advantage to this. No other method of purging allows you to continually attempt purge while MOVING. On my assassin for lolz, I put in windpush then bow, and ran a giant circle around this one barb, attempting purge all the while. Then when I got the purge he went human form, anti stun to rebuff hp and titans. I purged that off too, sparked, daggers, teleported in. An archer friend of mine puts in wings of grace and kites backwards from approaching melees while attempting purges the entire way, and as soon as he gets that purge he can fire off a stun and debuff combo. Sometimes the target has to immediately blow their belief or ad to survive the combo that follows, so the tradeoff really isn't as bad as you'd think at all.

    Get it already, hyper offensive sometimes works really well. Not that its even to my advantage to persuade people of this (I don't benefit from celestial sword one bit), but its simply a fact.
    The running around in circles thing will only work against someone who has little to no ranged attacks or ranged stuns. Good luck with your genie when it has no energy.

    Real good strategy yeah...
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  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    On my assassin for lolz, I put in windpush then bow, and ran a giant circle around this one barb,

    Reading comprehension fail on many levels. Didn't read what I put in previous posts, and didn't even properly read the one post you quoted!
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  • MrJohnDoe - Dreamweaver
    MrJohnDoe - Dreamweaver Posts: 103 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Yes Aeliah true there's no damage log (or maybe there is dont remember) and kite is the only purpose i see it useful, think it's the only skill that allows you to purge while running lol, not sure if you can with eruption fist too.
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  • DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
    DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Reading comprehension fail on many levels. Didn't read what I put in previous posts, and didn't even properly read the one post you quoted!

    You are the one linking it to your "hyper offensive" strategy in the end b:bye
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  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    You are the one linking it to your "hyper offensive" strategy in the end b:bye

    Enough with the stupid one-liners. I never said that an assassin running in a circle around a barb was necessarily a good idea. 'Lolz' implies something humorous/not serious. I feel like face-palming for even needing to explain this to you.

    I said earlier that legitimate uses for Celestial Sword include:

    -when you are much weaker the enemy and a strong offense is your only chance of victory
    -when you are tanky/slippery enough (barb+bm / archer+assassin, well geared) to expend genie to get purge off, knowing that if you are successful, you can kill hard-to-kill people much faster if you purge first
    -anytime your side outnumbers the enemy, it is safer to expend your genie for offense
    -when certain key targets MUST die at ANY cost (eg, flag carrier in a NW battle, enemy cata barb in TW)

    In all of these cases, there are situations where sacrificing a lot of defense for a good offense could be a good strategy.

    For an actual example, consider a tt99 dps sin with +5 weapon in TW situation. Can he do anything useful to kill anything? Not really. Can he use his genie to survive? Not really, he'll be one-shot/two-shot if he gets close to anybody, and doesn't do enough damage to kill anything besides. Bramble alone would destroy him. Can he still do anything useful? Yes! He could be purging key targets. If he stays far away, he could spam his genie endlessly for purges the entire TW. In essence he can be a quasi-veno, with the added safety of 30m range. Imagine the enemy cata barb in TW base getting spammed with Celestial Sword. Any heals over times/buffs that the clerics/mystics give the barb will get constantly purged off, as well as the barbarian's own buffs, which will greatly increase the chance that the barb dies. Fancy that.

    I essentially said all of this already. I summarize it here for your lazy *** to read again. And I stand by what I said before: you fail at reading comprehension. That's a polite way of saying 'I think you are an idiot'.

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  • DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
    DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Enough with the stupid one-liners. I never said that an assassin running in a circle around a barb was necessarily a good idea. 'Lolz' implies something humorous/not serious. I feel like face-palming for even needing to explain this to you.

    I said earlier that legitimate uses for Celestial Sword include:

    -when you are much weaker the enemy and a strong offense is your only chance of victory
    Yet you state in the next part of TW he'd be one/two-shot, why would spamming a genie skill be of any use if he'll die anyway in 1 or 2 hits, he won't get the chance.

    -when you are tanky/slippery enough (barb+bm / archer+assassin, well geared) to expend genie to get purge off, knowing that if you are successful, you can kill hard-to-kill people much faster if you purge first
    This would only ever work in a 1v1 situation, true enough, when someone is tanking multiple persons it's plain stupid.

    -anytime your side outnumbers the enemy, it is safer to expend your genie for offense
    True, but why would someone spam celestial sword on 1 person if you already outnumber the enemy, for offensive reasons i'm sure someone could come up with something better other than spamming celestial sword, it would work if you already burned up your genie and then spam it I guess.

    -when certain key targets MUST die at ANY cost (eg, flag carrier in a NW battle, enemy cata barb in TW)
    Depending on who the flag carrier is, true. If the flag carrier is a tanky as hell arcane with purify spell, you'll just increase the chance of making purify spell proc, so that would be a stupid way to use it and you'd just end up giving the said user a free ticket to the capture point.
    Barbs in TW yes, but that's what veno's are for aren't they? Maybe it's useful for an archer during it to spam celestial.


    In all of these cases, there are situations where sacrificing a lot of defense for a good offense could be a good strategy.

    For an actual example, consider a tt99 dps sin with +5 weapon in TW situation. Can he do anything useful to kill anything? Not really. Can he use his genie to survive? Not really, he'll be one-shot/two-shot if he gets close to anybody, and doesn't do enough damage to kill anything besides. Bramble alone would destroy him. Can he still do anything useful? Yes! He could be purging key targets. If he stays far away, he could spam his genie endlessly for purges the entire TW. In essence he can be a quasi-veno, with the added safety of 30m range. Imagine the enemy cata barb in TW base getting spammed with Celestial Sword. Any heals over times/buffs that the clerics/mystics give the barb will get constantly purged off, as well as the barbarian's own buffs, which will greatly increase the chance that the barb dies. Fancy that.

    Calling 30m a safety range is stupid as if there were no attacks that could ever reach beyond this, there are a number of skills that can and will be used, do you really think people will allow someone spamming celestial sword upon them when noticed it's being done? No, just oneshot the weak sin doing it and problem solved. The example is isn't that good of an example. Can he do something else that's usefull? Go japanese style and jump in to subsea and mire the group so the AOE's of the stronger people do more damage instead of hoping for a purge proc on a single target.

    I essentially said all of this already. I summarize it here for your lazy *** to read again. And I stand by what I said before: you fail at reading comprehension. That's a polite way of saying 'I think you are an idiot'.
    Sticks and stones, PvP on dreamweaver is nothing but a teaparty and a joke anyway so discussion of PvP is nonsense when it comes to Dreamweaver imo, hence why I cba to read bazillion lines of text when it's coming from someone saying it's fact while it's an opinion based on personal viewpoints.
    That being said, my opinion is written down as well and is my own.


    Cheers!
    /5char
    Soon™
    Well, maybe later, semi-retired.
  • MrJohnDoe - Dreamweaver
    MrJohnDoe - Dreamweaver Posts: 103 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Oh after all the damage goes to log, the one that doesn't is eruption fist but that's cause doesn't do damage like celestial sword and only purges, well 10% chance.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver
    DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Not that its even to my advantage to persuade people of this (I don't benefit from celestial sword one bit), but its simply a fact.

    Its not really to your disadvantage either.

    Does this purge proc work whilst you are slept/sog/stunned I wonder? I would hazard a guess at no.

    I assume genie damage can trigger a purify proc? If so not the best way to purge a caster in NW for example.
    DarkSkiesx - Demon Archer
    mypers.pw/1.7/#114350

    DarkSeasx - Sage Assassin
    mypers.pw/1.7/#136481

    youtube.com/darkskiesx
    Tempest-dw.shivtr.com
  • DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver
    DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    a quasi-veno, with the added safety of 30m range.

    NW 2014
    R9rr's vs an angry mob of quasi-venos.

    b:shocked
    DarkSkiesx - Demon Archer
    mypers.pw/1.7/#114350

    DarkSeasx - Sage Assassin
    mypers.pw/1.7/#136481

    youtube.com/darkskiesx
    Tempest-dw.shivtr.com