Archer Demon or Sage for PK

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

+10 r9 perf hp sharded wiz is a bit over 12k hp (even taking in to account of his 4 atk shards). It'll take 6 shots at 4.8k damage per shot to score the kill.

While I agree with the rest of your post... *5 shots.

12k -> (1) 7.2k -> (2, tick) 12k -> (3) 7.2k -> (4) 2.4k -> (5) dead

And, yes, I can see someone who isn't expecting to be hit standing there for 5 shots, especially if they're stunned at the start. It happens often, especially in CTF when people forget they can't use their genie while carrying the flag.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

6 shots... even if you manage to pull off sage stun as the first shot... that'll leave more than enough time for def charm to activate and prevent the 5th shot from being a kill shot. with the addition of pot/insta pot at the end... it'll more likely be 7 shots.

Just how many months has nation was been out now... and people are still forgetting they can't use genie. I guess if you must insist everything to go right for you and everything to go wrong for your target... it could work.

Not quite. Sage stun is 5 seconds, all 5 hits would be off inside the stun with an attack rate of 1aps, hence no defense charm ticking on the last hit. Windshield if you are doubtful about the last hit landing.

Even if the first hit (the stun) itself is defense charmed, 2.4k+4.k8 = 7.2k, half of 12k is 6k, so charm will tick with 3 more hits to kill (4.8k*3 = 14.4k). Even the auto potter activating for hp pots is iffy. If we assume that wiz was full hp and the first hit was a stun... then no, there won't be a hp pot ticking away. That means we can safely disregard the ~1000 hp a 3500 hp pot would recover in 3 seconds after charm tick, even though its not necessary: 14.4k-1k = 13.4k, still well over 12k.

This whole scenario is actually not terribly unlikely, 5 crits in a row is fairly plausible for a archer, every once in a while. I have 10 crits in a row documented, refer the ending of this video archer vs. cleric 1vs1, and 7 crits in a row at the beginning of this video another archer vs. cleric 1vs1. If you still think crit is unlikely without crit buff, modify the combo to sage quickshot (crit, defense charm gets ticked), then stun (charm tick crit), then 3 more crits; at 70% crit this is not just plausible, its quite likely; for non r9rr archer, 60% crit is still well within realms of possibility.

I'd be inclined to think that, if the archer was demon instead and did stun > quickshot, its entirely possible and well documented that the auto attack after quickshot will land at roughly the same time as quickshot, and it'll probably be a crit more likely than not, so you could bypass charm with 4.8k-4.8k dead, instead of chewing through the whole hp bar again. Seen it happen to me, and I have some of the best gear available (triple sparked demon archer with tangling mire and purged and some crits, but same principle).

Also not entirely unrelated: your signature and your general manner of speech say more unpleasant things about yourself than it does to show how 'pro' you are. No amount of gear or skill or experience gives you the right or responsibility to criticize others for attempting to pk even when their gear or experience aren't up to your level yet: that is the tactic of a bully, somebody who covers for their own lacks by pushing others down. Shame.

12k hp right?

If you can crit 4.8k on that, it's easily bypass-able in 3 crits. Of course, if any sort of complication occurs and you ticked, then it's a bit complicated.

Normally I wouldn't be talking about bypassing anyone, but it's a low sharded and purged robe so...

When you're outnumbered in NW a lot, it's worth knowing how to kill the moderately geared the cleanest way possible so you can do some damage before the mobs converge on your position.

Take Aim does not give a followup attack.

This is just a question about Stunning Arrow, since it's been brought up so much.
As a sin I make it a point to resist or counter an Archer's stun. However, certain endgame archers seem to fire off their Stunning Arrow a lot faster than the 1.5 seconds that Ecatomb claims (like half a second or quicker). I suspect either a difference in animation or a mistranslated skill description, seeing as archers with no -chan gear still have the same phenomenon.

Could someone explain this for me?

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

-5% chan from Emperor and -6% from R9 recast ring takes channeling time down to 1.335 seconds, which is a bit over the half second difference you mentioned

The thing is, I see this with archers who have pangu and skycovers.

A normal archer's stunning arrow I can actually time fortify by watching for the animation. I find this impossible with certain archers, as I see the animation the same time the stun lands.

I think you are still making some invalid assumptions, Kiyoshi. First of all, I was arguing for whether it was possible, not whether it had actually occurred. First of all, we do not have enough information as to Walpurga's gear to definitely say it couldn't have occurred based on what we were told:

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm G16 +3~5 (+7 hat) with +5 G15 weapon

and

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Money wise I'll be farming R9 after my G16 set is finished.

and

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

but a mile above my G16 +3 flawless standard.

Can we actually tell exactly which gear pieces she has from this information? No. Could we, in fact, suppose from the statement 'once I finish my g16' that she does not, in fact, have full g16? Yes. You are making assumptions and calling them facts. I, on the other hand, realize the lack of information, and am using that to say 'such and such could be possible'. Even though it seems 'obvious' that it wouldn't be ideal to split up a g16 set, the armor is +3 in flawless shards, not the gear of somebody wealthy. It seems plausible that the gearset may not be complete. We were told it isn't complete. Thus this mostly g16 set could fulfill the requirements of the 0.83 base aps which my math demonstrated is minimum necessary to reach 0.91 aps with windshield, and thus get 5 hits instead of a 5 second sage stun.

Next, the target in question:

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As for my damage output, I can kill most people in NW that aren't OP, my bow's purge has screwed more than one person (most delicious moment: R9rr wiz fully buffed running with flag, gets purged, suddenly my damage goes from 500 dph to 4.8K crits and he dies)

and

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I saw him in Arch on my catshop. +6 G15 cube neck, R8 ring and R9 ring, perfect citrines (not immacs) and rest +10 (I think), so no, not up to your standards

You replied with this:

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

+10 r9 perf hp sharded wiz is a bit over 12k hp (even taking in to account of his 4 atk shards). It'll take 6 shots at 4.8k damage per shot to score the kill. Maybe the wiz was just so stunned that you managed to purge him that he stood there for 6 seconds... who knows.

So you have pvp experience... great. Your experience comes from fighting +3s... not so great. Why are you trying to pass on experience fighting +3 refines... when I can throw a rock in west and find someone that'll kill you and your oppoinent with a ****?

1. You stated a likely hp of 12k for the wizard.
2. You stated Walpurga was fighting +3, when the quote above clearly shows +6s and +10s on the wizard (otherwise a hp of 12k, the number you gave, would clearly be impossible).
3. If the wizard is wearing r8 ring and has cube neck only +6, and HP shards, we can assume a very low physical defense WHEN purged.
4. Debuffs on the wizard were? Were they stated? No. There could be tangling mire involved, possibly another debuff. Walpurga never even stated that she soloed the wizard.
5. You were rude as always.

Then we had somebody chime in with this:

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

While I agree with the rest of your post... *5 shots.

12k -> (1) 7.2k -> (2, tick) 12k -> (3) 7.2k -> (4) 2.4k -> (5) dead

And, yes, I can see someone who isn't expecting to be hit standing there for 5 shots, especially if they're stunned at the start. It happens often, especially in CTF when people forget they can't use their genie while carrying the flag.

to which you replied:

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

6 shots... even if you manage to pull off sage stun as the first shot... that'll leave more than enough time for def charm to activate and prevent the 5th shot from being a kill shot. with the addition of pot/insta pot at the end... it'll more likely be 7 shots.

Right then.

So we are assuming a situation where the gear could be flexible, where the archer purges and gets 4.8k crits, and does a sage stun at the beginning. You said it would have to be 6 shots or even 7. I then proceed to argue that it can be done in 5 hits like Jarkhen said, and that it can be accomplished even if we make assumptions about hp pot and defense charms going off. I gave two DIFFERENT gear setups that would meet the requirements; I didn't explicitly state that I was trying to guess what Walpurga's gear is. We don't KNOW that. However, it might look something like the link I posted above, and that would fulfill the math requirements.

To answer your most recent comeback:

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

1. When someone says +3 g16 armor set... logically I would assume over 50% (possible) armor pieces being g16. not a 50/50 split between int/g16... also not a r8 set (especially one where the boot has a -int add).
2. For someone who can only afford a +3 g16 armor and g15 bow... thats some pretty nice double recasted int on the weapon. i personally drove up the price of rap/cannie by over 30% when i decided to buy all my 3rd cast in a single weekend... but i have yet manage to recast a double int on anything. maybe he is just luckier than me... but really... what are the chances.
3. when i said pot/insta pot. you managed to picked up on crab meat... but seems to have missed the "insta pot" part. while i'll give you that one since i can't myself remember the name of it... its the one where you do the divine quest and trade from npc... 1.5k hp/mp recover instantly.
4. lastly... i am pretty sure his gear set/speed is closer to my expectation than you -int build. stack on enough -int... sage can get 1aps without genie... but that's really not what we're talking about here.

1. We don't know the gear. See link.

2. I wasn't at that time guessing as to Walpurga's gear. See new link for more realistic pwcalc that meets same conditions.

3. If the 1500 hp pot activated at the beginning, 2 hits would still tick charm: 4.8k+4.8k-1.5k = 8.1k, well over 6k. But it wouldn't in the first place, because as we know auto potter doesn't go off when stunned. Three more hits to kill doesn't change.

IF the fifth hit didn't go off fast enough, a defense charm and 1500 hp pot might change it from five hits to six. 4.8k+4.8k+2.4k = 12k; we assume defense charm and 1500 pot activate before 5th hit, so that leaves target at precisely 1500 hp, which is one hit, crit or not, away from death, which would make it six hits.

Again, using the pure math calculations of 0.83 aps windshielded to 0.91, five hits complete within sage stun. In particular, if we throw in some real world conditions like ping and slowness of auto potter to respond sometimes, its very plausible that the fifth hit will arrive before stun is over, or do full damage even if it lands right after stun is done. After all, we've all died inside of absolute domain and ironguard before, have we not, which is essentially the same principle.

4. Again, we don't know the full gear, only that there is some g16, and not a complete set.

And once again, before you start telling how likely or unlikely it is (which the pwcalc I posted is decently realistic for a poor archer), remember, that doesn't matter. How likely depends on gear information we don't know, and conditions of lag that we can't possibly know. The real question was whether or not the situation we were arguing about is POSSIBLE. Give it up, it IS possible.

The whole discussion kinda deviated from Walpurga's original statement anyways, lol. She never said whether she was the only one hitting the archer. She never said the wizard had 12k hp, or that she crit 5 or 6 times in a row; that was information added in by YOU! I just took the conditions to the situation you supplied, and did the number crunching to see who was correct, you or Jarkhen, and it turns out Jarkhen was correct:

In a variety of gearsets and conditions involving auto potter and sage stun, five 4.8k crits COULD kill a 12k hp wizard.

How does it feel to be out-archered by a cleric hmmm. Do your research better next time.

sage archers shouldnt be trying to fight aps anyway esp with g16

Too many walls of text

Lol, nice way to attempt to dodge the bullet. The evidence presented by Walpurga wasn't there when I made my last post, and furthermore it isn't even relevant.
You are completely avoiding what I stated, that:
-five 4.8k crits could kill a 12k wiz from max hp in 5 seconds (COULD, this is a theoretical statement); you argued instead something completely different, that
-Walpurga could or did do this herself

This is just blatantly ridiculous, like most of what you said, because at no point until the post Walpurga just made did we know of the conditions Walpurga killed the wizard under, and whether she crit 5 or 6 times, or whether she had assistance, whether the wizard was carrying flag or afk or anything. You made up the 12k hp, and you made up 4.8 crits till death, and you made up the fact that she solo killed the wizard, and you said it would take 6 hits. BASED off that I argued it could be done in only 5 hits, inside of a sage stun, and I presented some builds showing that 0.83 aps in a variety of non-r9 gearsets was possible...this was THEORY you idiot, theory, and I demonstrated quite clearly that in theory, once again, 5 hits in under 5 seconds is quite doable in gear featuring some g16.

The first two builds I made were theoretical builds in no way trying to guess what Walpurga had as gear. Again, you completely are off the point I was making, which was to see if 5 hits in sage stun was possible in cheap gear which has some g16 (its possible). Am I repeating myself? Looks like I need to for your pitiful cranium to comprehend basic ideas such as this. The third build I presented was a look at a g16-heavy build that would feature 0.83 base aps, which Walpurga might be capable of having, since its not an expensive build. I wasn't presumptuous enough to try to extrapolate facts from assumptions about gear we haven't seen.

Now that we see how completely off the ball you were...

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

.67 attack speed is 1.5 attack/second... factor in wind shield to get 1.35 attack/second. the three regular attack that you mention will take 4.05 seconds. leaving you less than 1 second to fill in 2 more hits. i have doubts (when factoring in lag) even the fastest plausible build demon archer can fill 2 hits in .95 seconds.

1.5 attack per second *smirk*. You mean 1.5 seconds per attack... I guess? Somewhat in disbelief that an ARCHER would make such a simple mistake. No, wait, this is Kiyoshi... he'd never make basic mistakes about a p s...

0.67aps*1.1 = 0.737aps, PWI rounds this to 0.74 attacks per second
1second/0.74aps = 1.35 seconds per attack

Right.

Which is all verrry interesting except that you still never understood that the argument was theoretical, not what Walpurga was actually wearing. Somewhat like trying to target the cleric and hitting the barb instead, you shot off in completely the wrong direction. GG

Aeliah

tsyfall wrote: »

The thing is, I see this with archers who have pangu and skycovers.

A normal archer's stunning arrow I can actually time fortify by watching for the animation. I find this impossible with certain archers, as I see the animation the same time the stun lands.

Fairly certain you're experiencing some lag here, or just aren't recognizing the start of the stunning arrow animation. I have no trouble fortifying a stunning arrow, regardless of whether the archer has -chan gear or not.

I don't understand why there are so many walls of text when everything said in the walls can probably be articulated in like 3 sentences.


"I am right."
"You are stupid."
(And a third random idea to add some liiiiittle bit of variety)

All I can say is I find 4.8k crits pretty high on R9 wizard. Granted its stated to be purged. Meh, in the end its more of a theoretical situation where she can drop said wizard, not exactly something realistic and repeatable. Heck, I feel like crying when playing my archer with n3+10 bow as I cant get trough anything relevant w/o spark that gets enemy attention in TWs. If it werent those sins I crit for 10k I would feel like swapping to N2 bow for purge <.<.

Oh yeah, my archer is currently using my sins full +10 aps set with N3 bow. Waiting on 5-7b before I pop everything on him, dont feel like doing chienkung transfer as I expect new gear coming out. aps set = missing attack levels of N3 set bonus and damn those armors are outdated. Did TW against wifey on archer, she is R9T3+5 and partially perfect citrine sharded on armors. Couldnt chain enough crits in row to drop her during sage stun. On other hand she could drop me in few hits with R9T3+10 bow so had to kite when stun ended <.<. Guess I`m trying to say, if you arent R9T3 archer, you really arent relevant at all on anything endgame related PvP and the culti path wont matter there. I kinda like demon better if you arent decked out, sage when you are.

On behalf of the PWI community:
I beg you to stop. Seriously.

We've heard both your arguments (not that we've wanted to in the first place) but eventually we have to put the toys away. Neither of you will agree, so let's agree to disagree. Please.