Archer Demon or Sage for PK

alphasinbm

tsyfall wrote: »

On behalf of the PWI community:
I beg you to stop. Seriously.

We've heard both your arguments (not that we've wanted to in the first place) but eventually we have to put the toys away. Neither of you will agree, so let's agree to disagree. Please.

Go back to -removed- sin forums plz.

Sint - Harshlands

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Range bonus equals nothing?
And yet I can still stun/immobilise a demon archer or any robe and rick roll them without them hitting my pretty much 100% of the time.
If you really believe I can't, or any sage with my gear can't, you've pretty much proved my point about robes being able to get away without you demon quickshotting them and apsing them to death. They're just not going to stand there and let you fap arrows on their face. There aren't many dot/deity robes around, the only robe it would really make sense to do it on is a wizard or MAYBE a psychic.

Pretty much what kiyoshi said here, if you're just going to compare damage over a certain period of time and use an ideal world of a pure 50% proc rate then sure, not really sure how you're calculating any sort of boost in dps when demon quickshot doesn't proc, cause it should really be 0% if you're doing your maths right!

If you're using Sta as some way to boost what demon damage looks like then whilst your archer is capping away trying to get sta off and quick shot to proc mines already hit twice as much if not more than yours. GG on manipulating random numbers to make it look like you have a point though

Aren't you the same archer who frapsed himself BVing tt90 geared mages? If your tactical prowess does not extend beyond Stun > APS, that's your problem. Also, you seem to have misunderstood the maths. Considering the lack of intelligence you usually display, this is probably quite normal for you.

INaTTaNI - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Demon = low self-esteem, relying on pure chance. Sage = ability to anticipate and interchanging their actions.
I do not want to offend anyone, just by reading the writings, I had just such an impression. Somehow, the more argumentative players found a Sage.

That awkward moment when, after 5+ years of playing an archer, i'm told (by a lvl 7x?) that chance has nothing to do with it. Also, how exactly do you interchange "their actions? Who are "they"?

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur wrote: »

And the reason sage archers feel the need to defend our choice is because for so long demon archers looked down on us. It used to be sage archer=failed. It didn't matter how well they played or knew the class, but just by saying you were sage no one took you seriously. If you need proof of that just look at the archer Demon/Sage guide posted on the forum. The whole guide says sage archers suck and you're stupid if you choose that path.

I will admit that I am defensive about going sage because I find myself always having to justify my choice. Often when I tell people I'm a sage archer, their first response is "why" followed up by some snarky comment that I must not be very good player or accused of being a power leveler. I've been playing an archer for well over 2 1/2 years now, it was my first toon to make and I love the class. Two days ago I finally reached level 100 (my first level 100) and for someone to say I don't know how to play my archer just because I chose to be sage is highly insulting.

You're confusing cause and effect. You don't cease to know how to play your archer because you are sage, you are sage because you have a very tenuous grasp on archer gamelplay. I don't doubt a decent archer could pull off playing a sage archer, but i'm certain very few decent archers would choose sage.

On the last few pages of this thread: Kiyoshi and Aeliyah share a beautiful ignorance of archer gameplay.

The mage does not need to stand still. If he/she is not using charms, and, as stated, pulling the flag, he/she does not have a genie, probably has pots on cooldown, and is trying to get to the plant point. As long as Walpurga is between him and the turn in, the only choices are trying to kill walpurga and let the folks behind catch up, or ignore walpurga (whose bow is easily recognizable and not too dangerous.) and have a decent chance at turning the flag in.

Sint - Harshlands

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So anyone with a passable knowledge of the english langurage should be able to assume that my condictions was addressed to walpurga... and not some random or archers in general. and since my condictions were addressed to him (in this case him = walpurga for your clearity)... why would i not try to infer his gear.

Tell me more about your passable knowledge of the english langurage.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

stand there and let you fap arrows on their face.

b:laugh b:cry b:laugh

Line of the thread by far.

_Shui - Harshlands

tsyfall wrote: »

On behalf of the PWI community:
I beg you to stop. Seriously.

We've heard both your arguments (not that we've wanted to in the first place) but eventually we have to put the toys away. Neither of you will agree, so let's agree to disagree. Please.

Exactly. I doupt that op still cares about this.

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

You're confusing cause and effect. You don't cease to know how to play your archer because you are sage, you are sage because you have a very tenuous grasp on archer game play. I don't doubt a decent archer could pull off playing a sage archer, but i'm certain very few decent archers would choose sage.

And you just proved my point. The automatic assumption that anyone (majority) who would choose to go sage is a bad archer. I've seen many bad archers choose to go demon, and they chose it just because everyone told them to or they were lazy.

I spent months debating whether to go sage or demon, spending hours on the website looking at each skill. I thought about which skills I use the most, and which would be more beneficial too me. I realized that the majority of the skills I use are better in sage version, only two skills I use regularly are better in demon and for me those two skills were not worth throwing away the advantage of all the other skills. And I use all my skills, even the ones people have said are pointless to get, I've found a use for it.

I will admit that being a sage archer is not easy, if a person only wants to be a half-a$$ed archer go demon. But if you want to put a lot of effort into your class and play it to it's full potential, sage lets you do that.

Eoria - Harshlands

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur wrote: »

I spent months debating whether to go sage or demon, spending hours on the website looking at each skill. I thought about which skills I use the most, and which would be more beneficial too me. I realized that the majority of the skills I use are better in sage version, only two skills I use regularly are better in demon and for me those two skills were not worth throwing away the advantage of all the other skills. And I use all my skills, even the ones people have said are pointless to get, I've found a use for it.

Please list these skills and why they are better sage than demon.

ty.

_Shui - Harshlands

Both cultis SUCK HARD in PK. Just my pole is smexy!

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Please list these skills and why they are better sage than demon.

ty.

I'm just going down the list on ecatomb top to bottom of skills I use the most, not going in order of how much I use them.

Take Aim - Does more damage and a .05 second less charge is not worth the damage loss
Quickshot - 20% crit increase that is spamable and always procs. (if you want aps, make a sin)
Blazing Arrow - Increase damage that lasts duration instead of 20 seconds
Frost Arrow - Full elemental damage, great against phy resist mobs or HA
Wings of Protection - Demon better
Thunder Shock - Increase debuff time, the stun on demon is so low % not worth it.
Winged Pledge - Only one second cool down basically makes it spammable
Stunning Arrow - Last longer and with sage quickshot I have a 20% crit increase any way
Sharpened Tooth Arrow - Larger HP decrease, proc on demon too low %
BoA - Demon Better
And to add to this
Vicious Arrow which I only use in PvP, the damage sucks but the mana burn is great to use on seekers.

Of all these skills the only two that are better in demon version are Wings of Protection and BoA. Right now the only sage skills I do not have are BoA and Stormrage Eagleon and that's because I haven't had luck in making/finding the BoA book.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur wrote: »

I'm just going down the list on ecatomb top to bottom of skills I use the most, not going in order of how much I use them.

Take Aim - Does more damage and a .05 second less charge is not worth the damage loss
Quickshot - 20% crit increase that is spamable and always procs. (if you want aps, make a sin)
Blazing Arrow - Increase damage that lasts duration instead of 20 seconds
Frost Arrow - Full elemental damage, great against phy resist mobs or HA
Wings of Protection - Demon better
Thunder Shock - Increase debuff time, the stun on demon is so low % not worth it.
Winged Pledge - Only one second cool down basically makes it spammable
Stunning Arrow - Last longer and with sage quickshot I have a 20% crit increase any way
Sharpened Tooth Arrow - Larger HP decrease, proc on demon too low %
BoA - Demon Better
And to add to this
Vicious Arrow which I only use in PvP, the damage sucks but the mana burn is great to use on seekers.

Of all these skills the only two that are better in demon version are Wings of Protection and BoA. Right now the only sage skills I do not have are BoA and Stormrage Eagleon and that's because I haven't had luck in making/finding the BoA book.

Why would you use fully charge take aim in PVP unless you're just trolling?

The comment about if you want aps make a sin is completely ****. If you have at least double digit IQ you can figure out why.

Blazing arrow is mostly so you can stun through physical immunity. The extra few hundred damage is meh.

Using winged pledge is lol.

Using frost arrow is lol.

Using vicious arrow is lol.

The metal debuff is long on sage but really how long do you need it? Sage complements the sage style which is dph. Demon archers are built around autoattacking for crits and we don't need the extra duration on the debuff.

Demon STA is better. Getting even one extra crit from the buff already outshines whatever extra % you get from sage. Sage STA is a PVE skill. Also LOL at your comment that demon proc % is too low. 100% proc rate is too low for you, huh?

The mastery and stunning arrow is really the only two sage skills that outshine demon. Aim low is situational; I somewhat prefer sage just because seal can go through antistuns, but I wouldn't aim low an anti-stunned person anyway....

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur wrote: »

I'm just going down the list on ecatomb top to bottom of skills I use the most, not going in order of how much I use them.

Take Aim - Does more damage and a .05 second less charge is not worth the damage loss
The frequency with which a fully-charged take aim is used in endgame PvP is basically... zero. Instants are used often, but neither culti really affects anything significant here.

Quickshot - 20% crit increase that is spamable and always procs. (if you want aps, make a sin)
As I've mentioned multiple times (see earlier post for numbers), demon qs gives both higher max (spike) dps (assumed proc), as well as higher average dps (50% proc). Typically when you have a balanced tradeoff between a % proc and a guaranteed one, the guaranteed one gives more benefit than the average benefit from the % proc. This is not the case here; demon wins out either way, even without counting the fact that you get other +crit buffs from STA/Stun... and without taking into consideration that if a demon barb buffs you, your sage qs is 100% useless until their crit buff wears off.

Also, hate to break it to you, but archers are at their core an autoattack class and thus benefit greatly from aps. Our skills, for the most part, do **** for damage and if you're a skillspam archer except when fighting HAs you are quite frankly doing it wrong.

Blazing Arrow - Increase damage that lasts duration instead of 20 seconds
Granted. Demon Blazing has some situational use for spike damage but I'd prefer sage... though the damage difference is pretty unnoticeable.

Frost Arrow - Full elemental damage, great against phy resist mobs or HA
**** damage either way at the cost of chi that could be better used elsewhere.

Wings of Protection - Demon better

Thunder Shock - Increase debuff time, the stun on demon is so low % not worth it.
Granted. Demon proc is nice but unreliable.

Winged Pledge - Only one second cool down basically makes it spammable
How often do you really used winged pledge in endgame PvP? Answer: rarely, and certainly not spamming it. Both cultis fairly useless at endgame, imo.

Stunning Arrow - Last longer and with sage quickshot I have a 20% crit increase any way
You can't compare sage qs w/ demon stun and sage qs w/ sage stun. You have to compare demon qs w/ demon stun and sage qs w/ sage stun. Demon gives 10% crit, which is a dps increase that stacks with the 30% aps from quickshot. Since quickshot is very often used immediately before/after stun, having both up is not uncommon.

Sharpened Tooth Arrow - Larger HP decrease, proc on demon too low %
Proc? What proc? STA's demon proc is 100% chance to give +10% crit. There is no chance proc here.

BoA - Demon Better

And to add to this
Vicious Arrow which I only use in PvP, the damage sucks but the mana burn is great to use on seekers.
The vast majority of people are going to be using an MP charm or autopot and aren't even going to notice a 900 MP mana burn over 9 seconds. At best, you'll manage to drop a vortex, which could've been done quicker and easier with stun.

Responses in red.

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur

Aesthor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Why would you use fully charge take aim in PVP unless you're just trolling?


I don't use it in PvP, I use it in PvE. Not every player on this game focuses solely on PvP

The comment about if you want aps make a sin is completely ****. If you have at least double digit IQ you can figure out why.

Archer is about DPH not APS. Far better to kill something in one or two shots than in 3 or 4 regardless of how fast they are.
On a personal note: Don't ever try to insult my IQ or intelligence. I was attending college full-time at age 15, reading Plato at age 10 and physics at age 12. If you really want to compare intelligence I'd be more than willing to debate with you on my current project about the evolution of energy. It will require you being well versed in various fields of physics as well as biology and even philosophy. If that sounds a little too daunting for you, perhaps it would be best in the future for you not to question others in areas you, yourself are left wanting.

Blazing arrow is mostly so you can stun through physical immunity. The extra few hundred damage is meh.

Using winged pledge is lol.

Using frost arrow is lol.

Using vicious arrow is lol.


All of these skills have uses. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean it's not there. Two of which I already explained

The metal debuff is long on sage but really how long do you need it? Sage complements the sage style which is dph. Demon archers are built around autoattacking for crits and we don't need the extra duration on the debuff.

You're missing an very important part of this debuff that it also benefits other people you may be in squad with, such as a cleric who is DDing or a seeker. Also as you stated it compliments other sage skills. A person needs to utilize all the skills they have available to them, it makes you more effective. Auto-attacking has it's place but if that is all a person does they are either a poor player or just extremely lazy.

Demon STA is better. Getting even one extra crit from the buff already outshines whatever extra % you get from sage. Sage STA is a PVE skill. Also LOL at your comment that demon proc % is too low. 100% proc rate is too low for you, huh?

I mis-read that skill when I went back through the guide, been a while since I chose my culti path, I thought it was a 10% proc rate, not 10% increase, but either way sage quickshot with a 20% increase combined with this is better. Plus this skill is great when you are doing instances that require a fast kill on bosses and lowering the HP does that.

The mastery and stunning arrow is really the only two sage skills that outshine demon. Aim low is situational; I somewhat prefer sage just because seal can go through antistuns, but I wouldn't aim low an anti-stunned person anyway....

To answer Jarkhen on his question about the mana burn, I do find it useful on seekers even with a charm due to the fact they have such low MP. It interferes with how many ranged skills they can use and forces them to be more selective. We all know that MP charms often click way too soon and because of this I've found that by hitting them with the mana burn, when they use one skill that is often all that is required for them to not have enough mana to follow it up with another. Also it seems to throw them off their game per say. Often people get stuck playing a certain way and when they are in a situation that alters that, they are unable to. This is just from my own observation. I only started using the skill within the last month or so, and when I first started using the skill it was more just on a whim. To me it was actually very surprising how effective the skill was, I was not expecting it.

Right now I'm thinking that because so few archers use the skill that maybe it is catching the seeker off guard, a shock factor? I'll certainly keep experimenting with this skill to see if it keeps being effective. It's only through trial and error that we find new methods.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Bit of a tangent, but:

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur wrote: »

On a personal note: Don't ever try to insult my IQ or intelligence. I was attending college full-time at age 15, reading Plato at age 10 and physics at age 12. If you really want to compare intelligence I'd be more than willing to debate with you on my current project about the evolution of energy. It will require you being well versed in various fields of physics as well as biology and even philosophy. If that sounds a little too daunting for you, perhaps it would be best in the future for you not to question others in areas you, yourself are left wanting.

Coming from someone who can match or beat pretty much everything you've listed here (none of which, by the way, are particularly impressive in themselves), a simple "ad hominem has no place here" or something along those lines would have sufficed, and I would have supported you. As it is, nobody here cares when or even if you went to college, or when you started reading the works of one out of numerous notable philosophers or when you gained an interest in physics.

Should Aesthor have made the comment in the first place? No; it was in poor taste and made her post seem weaker, not stronger. But your over-the-top defense of your intelligence just makes you look insecure about it. I see it way too often and it gets rather annoying b:surrender


Also, archers are a bit of a mix of dph and aps. What they are certainly not is a skillspam class. Ironically enough, a primary example of a skillspam class in PvP is... assassin. Archers have neither the high-weapon-damage skills nor the zerk necessary to make them viable skillspammers.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Ast and I found out that Winged Pledge never misses and can Purge. Is this win?

Actually Ast is skeptical that demon Winged Pledge purges. We just tried with my level 10. The theory is any attack that procs another effect will not purge, and since crappy Demon Pledge is chance to proc slow we figure it won't purge. Other examples are Stunning Arrow is chance to proc stun (90%) and it will not purge.

Not that it matters much, just thought it was interesting how it doesn't miss. Wingspan does miss though.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur wrote: »

..........
HerpDerp
............


This THREAD is about PVP. It doesn't matter if you use it for PVE or not, the OP asked about PVP.

Archer is about APS. Why do you think archer gear has APS buffs? Of course it's far better to kill things in 1 or 2 shots, but if you just did the math on the multipliers on archer skills you would realize that is not how archers were designed to be played. This game designed wizards, seekers, and assassins to be strong DPH classes. How about before trying to call me lazy or not a team player, you look at the numbers. Oh yea, usually my clerics are busy trying to keep me or the rest of my team alive. I don't think my clerics care how long my metal debuffs last.

Demon archers are based on APS. They get their burst damage from lucking out on procs and critting a lot. Demon skills complement each other well, and that was why demon was for a long time considered the superior culti. If you seriously think being sage allows you to kill other players in 2 hits, you are killing <100 lowbies. But hey, don't let me stop you. Go ahead and spam all your skills against end game players with more than half a brain. Let me know when you learn that this game isn't balanced so all skills are useful.

For someone who is SO defensive about your IQ, you sure are close minded. I actually don't give a damn where or when you went to college. I made my comments based on the attitude in your post. If you want polite replies, you make polite posts. You posted **** like 'oh if you want to aps go roll a sin,' so you likewise got unproductive condescending remarks from me. And I think it's interesting to note that for someone who is so pissy about my insulting their IQ (on a forum that is known for trolling....welcome to PWI forums! are you new?), you proceed to make presumptions about MY education. Hello captain hypocrisy. I suggest you get a refund from whoever taught you how to "debate."

Since we want to reply in the quote box, I'll be a sheep like the rest of you. Baaaa.

Also, I think this whelp wants everyone to bring their credentials to the forum. Hi thar, I went to Harvard University when I was 5! Do I need to scan my diploma just to post on the forums? My transcript too? Maybe my paychecks...mmm...

But if it interests you I have a degree in biochemistry, which, incidentally, required me to take courses in biology, chemistry, physics, philosophy, and whatever other fancy **** you want to name that actually isn't that impressive because well basically everyone I know has taken those courses.

_Shui - Harshlands

Sage is about DHP and Demon DPS. End of the story.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

This thread is still going!

Aesthor, I have to think you are, not being close minded persay, but you aren't seeing the whole picture. Its wrong to call a sage archer a skill spammer, but they will certainly, on average, integrate more skills into attacking a person.

Easy example:

Demon STA = 10% increase to crit and 16% lower max hp. Two lesser effects, but they both go off at once.

compared to:

Sage STA = 20% lower max hp, combined with quickshot, with is 20% crit. The combined effect of the two skills is superior to the single demon sta, so a sage archer would, very likely, use both skills, instead of doing just quickshot or just sage sta.

Also, the basic fact that sages won't get that increased aps unless they windshield, they do rely on their skills more. A nice feature of sage skills is the chi gain. Even with quickshot in, auto attacking as an archer is a mighty slow way to gain chi.

As a cleric who pks a fair bit, I'm actually quite concerned with how long sage thunder shock lasts; I'm also very interested in the fact that sage stun is 5 seconds instead of 3. When I'm assist targeting an archer, the one with the deadlier status effects is going to be sage. The demon will be auto attacking faster no doubt, and will probably get a purge sooner, if a purge is what is needed to kill a person. I'd have to say, though, on an enemy cata barb in my base who is already purged, I'd be somewhat more interested in the fact that the metal debuff lasts for 25s vs 15, and that the stun is 5s instead of 3, and that the max hp drop is 20% instead of 16%. I would be extremely interested in how stormrage eagleon drops magic and physical defense by 50%. These are all gonna help kill the barb faster, because nobody expects an archer to kill a barb with auto attacks... I hope.

So, just like I said earlier in this thread: demons do excel at killing people who are susceptible to straight up physical dmg: aka, the arcanes. They do ok against other light armors. They do more poorly against physical dders. A sage archer does ok at arcanes, ok at light armors, and ok at heavy armors. See something interesting here? Balance. Every demon archer will praise their quickshot and normal attacks, but I've never seen endgame heavies fall to archer normal attacks unless they are being heavily ganked. I have however seen sage archers drop full jaded barbs with the hellish combination of thunder shock, stormrage, and blood vow.

Sage archers have lower cooldowns on 2 of their metal skills, and a longer lasting debuff on thunder shock (they aren't required to use it as frequently, and thus save chi when spamming metals) and strong debuffs on their stormrage. They do, discount it though you may, have frost arrow as well, which with an archers dmg and crit, could do some decent dmg to heavy armors; certainly more than a couple auto attacks. They'll never do the raw dmg my cleric does, but their debuffs are much superior, and because of their crit rate, their average dmg from metal could, in fact, exceed mine. They gain more chi from lightning strike so spamming lightning strike could be really beneficial to them as well.

Because of winged pledge 1s cooldown, and massive potential gains of chi from wingspan, and chances of chi from lightning strike, sage archers should be quite comfortable fighting somebody in melee range if necessary, but if they want to use their range, they can outmaneuvre any other class/cultivation in the game as well. Comfortable up close and far away, they are, in fact, versatile. A demon archer is happiest when neither too close nor too far.

To be dismissive of the skills of an archer as an entire class when only looking from the demon perspective is, I'd say, not seeing the entire picture. I'm sure you know your demon archer very well Aesthor, but in terms of being 'right' about your cultivation, that is definitely close-minded. An archer can be more than auto attacker extraordinaire...especially *if* sage.

Cheers,

Aeliah

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

If you really want to compare intelligence I'd be more than willing to debate with you on my current project about the evolution of energy. It will require you being well versed in various fields of physics as well as biology and even philosophy. If that sounds a little too daunting for you, perhaps it would be best in the future for you not to question others in areas you, yourself are left wanting.

so your intelligence manifests only in a very specific field? sorry but that's not intelligence, that's knowledge and your proposal is equivalent to challenging someone to duel on a server where you have r9rr+12 and he is tt90. not a sign of an intelligent person I daresay.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To be dismissive of the skills of an archer as an entire class when only looking from the demon perspective is, I'd say, not seeing the entire picture. I'm sure you know your demon archer very well Aesthor, but in terms of being 'right' about your cultivation, that is definitely close-minded. An archer can be more than auto attacker extraordinaire...especially *if* sage.

This is mostly true but as a sage archer I have felt like demon would be better for what archers are supposed to kill. Then again my archer is currently undergeared and sage path offers a lot more support to key DDs than demon does. Sage also struggles far more with inferior gear to kill even the arcanes. Its hard to go trough +10 cataclerics with N3 bow, I think I even kinda tested it out. Cant remember how she is sharded, I know she is least partially jades but I couldnt get trough her charm with N3+10 as sage while ignored. With a demon QS proc I am sure I would of managed going trough the charm. Point being, demon is better at killing the targets you are supposed to kill.

I still wont change from sage if they dont add something stupid to demon. Shortened cd of awaken was a big deal for demon but meh, the rework gave sage more than demon overall. Anybody who argues how sages kill HAs and demons dont are silly, its mostly gear and while sage path is better at it, going sage wont let you automatically drop HAs easily. Sage offers chi, a lot of it, that is the only point where demon just cant compete with sage. Demons have clearly superior p.dmg dps sages cant compete with. Most sage skills you end up using have chi proc, not to mention the culti skill. Yes, demons take chi away faster than sages gain with culti skill but how often are you really hit with that skill?I can remember ever being hit with it since I played my catabarb, discounting certain wifey trolling me <.<.

Ps. Currently paths are really balanced, sage has bit more utility, lot more chi and demon offers distinctly more dps.

Edit: Whoever said archer is bout dph made me want to bookmark that post so I can go back it when feeling down and giggle myself to sleep.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Qui here to dispel the wrong!

"Demons use auto attacks while Sages use skills"

Both paths act similar...when you can bypass someone in 2 hits, both might try to bypass. There's no reason to spend more time than necessary to kill someone, the less time you spend stationary the better. Sage will be more free in what hp range they can bypass, of course, but I don't know if less-than optimal geared opponents is that much of a concern for either paths.

When the target has too much defense to think about bypassing, both paths will use auto attacks. A Demon is not going to auto attack a fat robe while a Sage skill spams. It's common sense.

Don't think there's a huge distinction in the two path' play styles, because the archers' skill set is not that complicated.

"Sage Stormrage reduces defense"

This one has been corrected to death, it doesn't. The only thing fun about Stormrage is the slow, which is hilarious and stacks with other slows, if you're interested in spending sparks to torment someone and make them treadmill in place while calling them fat.

"Thundershock debuff duration is super important"

Debuff lasts 15s for regular and 25s for Sage, Thundershock CD is 6s. As archers have limited metal attacks available to them, it stands to reason they will use Thundershock again and again out of necessity. There is no reason to believe Demons just let the debuff run out while Sages somehow enjoy the longer debuff by not using Thundershock when it's CD is up.

"Archers can drop full jade barbs alone"

If the barb is bad.

"Archer combat at close range is different for the two paths"

Both classes will not like fighting at close range because other classes have faster attacks and will kill you before you kill them unless they were ticked before reaching melee or something.

I really have to wonder how good the 1s CD on Pledge is when either paths might use a combination of wing and metal attacks anyway.

Never seen anyone Pledge someone decent to death...Demon Wingspan is very useful for holding out a melee opponent by the way.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Qui here to dispel the wrong!

"Demons use auto attacks while Sages use skills"

Both paths act similar...when you can bypass someone in 2 hits, both might try to bypass. There's no reason to spend more time than necessary to kill someone, the less time you spend stationary the better. Sage will be more free in what hp range they can bypass, of course, but I don't know if less-than optimal geared opponents is that much of a concern for either paths.

When the target has too much defense to think about bypassing, both paths will use auto attacks. A Demon is not going to auto attack a fat robe while a Sage skill spams. It's common sense.

Don't think there's a huge distinction in the two path' play styles, because the archers' skill set is not that complicated.

"Sage Stormrage reduces defense"

This one has been corrected to death, it doesn't. The only thing fun about Stormrage is the slow, which is hilarious and stacks with other slows, if you're interested in spending sparks to torment someone and make them treadmill in place while calling them fat.

"Thundershock debuff duration is super important"

Debuff lasts 15s for regular and 25s for Sage, Thundershock CD is 6s. As archers have limited metal attacks available to them, it stands to reason they will use Thundershock again and again out of necessity. There is no reason to believe Demons just let the debuff run out while Sages somehow enjoy the longer debuff by not using Thundershock when it's CD is up.

"Archers can drop full jade barbs alone"

If the barb is bad.

"Archer combat at close range is different for the two paths"

Both classes will not like fighting at close range because other classes have faster attacks and will kill you before you kill them unless they were ticked before reaching melee or something.

I really have to wonder how good the 1s CD on Pledge is when either paths might use a combination of wing and metal attacks anyway.

Never seen anyone Pledge someone decent to death...Demon Wingspan is very useful for holding out a melee opponent by the way.

You probably have the most realistic posts about both playstyles. I admit I oversimplify things so I can type less when I post so you word it better than I do. The DPS/DPH difference between the two cultis is not that big; I've played both cultis and the most noticeable difference is the quickshot(where demon is decidedly better) and the stun (sage is decidedly better). The range difference is EXTREMELY circumstantial. It's nice to have a metal skill that never misses. Barrage is most definitely better on demon. The autoattack "dps" tbh is not that noticeable. All things considered I prefer demon, and the only thing I really envy sage for is the stun, with their stronger mastery coming in second (and last).

On an unrelated note, you should make more funny posts. I don't even read most of the posts on these forums anymore. I mostly read posts by people I know and occasionally a post by someone else if I see a lot of people quoting it. The forums haven't been very interesting...It's the same old except it's not as funny anymore. It's just as easy as it was before; I can pick any post, call it stupid, and someone's panties will get twisted. :P

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Qui here to dispel the wrong!

"Demons use auto attacks while Sages use skills"

Both paths act similar...when you can bypass someone in 2 hits, both might try to bypass. There's no reason to spend more time than necessary to kill someone, the less time you spend stationary the better. Sage will be more free in what hp range they can bypass, of course, but I don't know if less-than optimal geared opponents is that much of a concern for either paths.

When the target has too much defense to think about bypassing, both paths will use auto attacks. A Demon is not going to auto attack a fat robe while a Sage skill spams. It's common sense.

Don't think there's a huge distinction in the two path' play styles, because the archers' skill set is not that complicated.

"Sage Stormrage reduces defense"

Um... yeah. it really does. Lol.

This one has been corrected to death, it doesn't. The only thing fun about Stormrage is the slow, which is hilarious and stacks with other slows, if you're interested in spending sparks to torment someone and make them treadmill in place while calling them fat.

Nope, it really does reduce defense. Here's some video proof: Look at 9:15 on the video, where sage archer uses stormrage eagleon on the seeker.

"Thundershock debuff duration is super important"

Debuff lasts 15s for regular and 25s for Sage, Thundershock CD is 6s. As archers have limited metal attacks available to them, it stands to reason they will use Thundershock again and again out of necessity. There is no reason to believe Demons just let the debuff run out while Sages somehow enjoy the longer debuff by not using Thundershock when it's CD is up.

We'll let a sage archer chip in on this; personally if I wanted to save chi I'd avoid using it more than necessary (it has a long channel/cast too).

"Archers can drop full jade barbs alone"

If the barb is bad.

Ever heard of zooming thunder powder? The combos I've seen done to me and to jade barbs can, if you aren't completely focused, drop you before you can react (the animations severely lag behind the dmg, so you have to know whats coming in order to react to it).

"Archer combat at close range is different for the two paths"

Both classes will not like fighting at close range because other classes have faster attacks and will kill you before you kill them unless they were ticked before reaching melee or something.

I really have to wonder how good the 1s CD on Pledge is when either paths might use a combination of wing and metal attacks anyway.

Never seen anyone Pledge someone decent to death...Demon Wingspan is very useful for holding out a melee opponent by the way.

Everybody who knows their **** stays within melee range of an archer as much as possible. Sometimes your ports are out of cooldown or its not safe to port (hilly terrain) when immobilized. As much as you may *want* to always be at a distance from the enemy, you just aren't going to be able to at all times. In such a case you don't have a choice but to fight melee. I would hope you don't auto attack like some archers I've seen who are stuck in melee range. You could be doing FULL dmg and building up chi until you can get a bit further away, by doing stuff like winged pledge and wingspan, or lightning strike. And, as somebody else mentioned, sage winged pledge can purge... demon can't. Bonus points for a sage to be using it over a demon.

In general, an archer will be doing a lot of auto attacks either way. Arcanes do drop to auto attacks so sage archers going for arcanes will definitely be doing a lot of auto attacks. Demons kill arcanes better, I don't think anybody is going to contest that. But I'm equally as sure that sage archers have the upper hand when it comes to heavy armors (by a lot) and that they do just as good as demons against other lights armors... what they lack in dps they make up for with... magic, seeing as light armors do tend to have a bit more physical than magic defense, because they choose to have 2 accuracy rings in, and rightfully so if they want to reliably hit other light armors.

I still sense from your post that you think demons are better because they are better at killing arcanes, and being somewhat dismissive of a sage's superiority in the heavy armor killing/support areas. In fact, the video I linked is showing a sage archer dropping a full r9rr seeker! Think about it a second: which is more dangerous, 2 demon archers, 2 sage, or a demon + sage? The obvious answer should be: demon + sage. You get the best of both: faster purge and stronger dps from the demon, and the longer stun and stronger/longer debuffs of a sage. Clearly both demon and sages have their place.

Cheers.

IlIAryaIlI - Heavens Tear

The one thing that no one has taken into account is the fact that not everyone can fully make use of the benefits of each culti path. For example, assuming that "demon is the way to go" or "sage is the best choice," what would it matter if the player just does not work well with a demon/sage playstyle? (that last sentence actually seems to replicate that of another previous reply to this thread, but it is actually a little more narrowed down in terms of "playstyle" and "capability.") Granted, there may be a few that can consider themselves pros and take into account every slight advantage/disadvantage of each culti path. However, for those that aren't pros, which I can safely assume is 95~90% of the total in-game population, you're better off choosing a culti path that not only suits your "playstyle," but also your abilities as a player. Again, what does it matter if it turns out that one culti path trumps the other in mass PvP if you have no idea how to accustom yourself to the playstyle, or are just outright unable to adjust to said culti path?

Anyways, I love how there are many different takes on Heaven vs. Hell, as it gives newer archers something to think about when progressing through the game. I personally play the game as much for its aesthetic content as I do for the PvP aspect of the game, and so I just want to go Sage for the looks of it. Feel free to call me a noob for doing this, but I enjoy the game for a lot more than where I stand in terms of "pwning the whole server." I personally think that, though refreshing as it may be at times, people tend to get a little too competitive over PvP stats. But I digress.

If some of you have forgotten, here's a friendly reminder: Just enjoy the game ^_^ A little off-topic there, but meh. People tend to forget this anyways. Happy grinding, and hope to see you all in-game! b:victory

tsyfall

IlIAryaIlI - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The one thing that no one has taken into account is the fact that not everyone can fully make use of the benefits of each culti path. For example, assuming that "demon is the way to go" or "sage is the best choice," what would it matter if the player just does not work well with a demon/sage playstyle? (that last sentence actually seems to replicate that of another previous reply to this thread, but it is actually a little more narrowed down in terms of "playstyle" and "capability.") Granted, there may be a few that can consider themselves pros and take into account every slight advantage/disadvantage of each culti path. However, for those that aren't pros, which I can safely assume is 95~90% of the total in-game population, you're better off choosing a culti path that not only suits your "playstyle," but also your abilities as a player. Again, what does it matter if it turns out that one culti path trumps the other in mass PvP if you have no idea how to accustom yourself to the playstyle, or are just outright unable to adjust to said culti path?

Anyways, I love how there are many different takes on Heaven vs. Hell, as it gives newer archers something to think about when progressing through the game. I personally play the game as much for its aesthetic content as I do for the PvP aspect of the game, and so I just want to go Sage for the looks of it. Feel free to call me a noob for doing this, but I enjoy the game for a lot more than where I stand in terms of "pwning the whole server." I personally think that, though refreshing as it may be at times, people tend to get a little too competitive over PvP stats. But I digress.

If some of you have forgotten, here's a friendly reminder: Just enjoy the game ^_^ A little off-topic there, but meh. People tend to forget this anyways. Happy grinding, and hope to see you all in-game! b:victory

Quoted for truth. Easily the most truthful post about Sage/Demon Archers, or hell, PvP anywhere...

Quilue - Sanctuary

Aeliah:

@Stormrage

Sage Stormrage was -50% attack for years, as was the description, so if they changed it then sure.

@TSHOCK

Let me put it this way: you only have like 5 metal attacks...take BV and Stormrage out of the spam cycle and what are you going to do while you wait for Strike's CD? T Blast channels even longer by the way. Look you're supposedly using Stormrage and BV, neither have shorter chan/cast than Shock and cost more chi than Shock.

@ZTP

Only if the barb is bad. "OMG I didn't pay attention in a 1v1 fight...must've been admiring my 50k hp"

@Pledge

Where in that video do you see Sage archers spam Winged Pledges? You said it yourself, either paths are going to be using a number of skills at melee range. Where does the 1s CD on Pledge come in?

Both paths are usable and fine, sure...but stop picking small things like Pledge cd and Shock debuff duration and at least you didn't focus on the 2 meter range bonus.

The perks are there for both paths, and everyone can see that.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

1. No one does take aim anymore unless you insta fire... and in that case both demon and sage are the same.
2. Any sage that's serious about using frost arrow is a complete idiot.
3. Metal debuff. Demon is actually better for real life small scale pvp situtions (here is where all the math nerds have it wrong). Both debuff metal at 50%... but demon has an extra seal chance. While its true that sage have the longer debuff time, but its kinda pointless. Due to archer's limited metal attacks... if you are going to unload magic damage on your target, you are going to cycle back to metal debuff long before the debuff timer runs out. In large scale pvp (where you won't focus fire on heavies as often) sage will be better due to its longer debuff timer, but with so many people hitting the same target its hard to validate the usefulness of archer debuffs (especially considering there will be many more other debuffs on the target). Considering chances are... the target will still die without archer metal debuff.
4. Melee wing skills... if I am even remotely spamming wings... then I am already neck deep in some serious dodo. While its true that I have on several occasion used on bm/sin/distance shink wiz, its not something that I would spam since I know how to keep DISTANCE.
5. Archer dots. Which ever sage that take this seriously is even a bigger idiot then the ones that use water arrow.
6. Metal attacks. Most (if not all) layperson will say sage's metal hits harder/faster so by definition is better. There is some truth in this, but its not the whole story. Sage metal do hit harder... if and when it hits. Against ax bms archer have less than 85-90% hit rate... and against la we are looking at less than 75-80% hit rate. It suck big balls when you spent 2 seconds to chan/cast something that miss on a 20-30k hp target.

Sage's advantage lies in stun and damage. I guess any useless sage can assist with target stun just like any tt90 bm can still roar cc. The real notable advantage lies in gear... with the higher sage mastery. Equal geared sage/demon... sage will always maintain a 3% higher damage. Factor in 3rd cast r9 gear... thats like 6-7 dots. Apply that to my sage, and you are looking at ~2k higher raw damage.

Before everyone start to throw out theories regarding which cult is better for what... it might be a good idea to actually play each of the cult at their full capabilities. It would really suck when you talk like you actually know something and end up not even being able to decipher gear.

Teecs - Archosaur

im sage archer, i kill arcane with Stunning Arrow + fully charged Take Aim
not necessary full charged , i usually measure their remaining HP while im charging it.
with 5 Sec stunning arrow i can cast take aim freely w/o having any interruptions.
im not bragging but i kill rrr9 arcanes with mostly 2 hits charmed or not. i use +10 N3 bow 91 attack lvl & 16-21K phys attack.

i never use aps on PVP , lesser you hit , the better. also works best on Psychics since they have SoV, SoS or whatever buff that is. especially when theyre charmed and got the weapon proc *puri*. the more you hit , the more likely youll get silenced , ticking their charms , and activating puri proc. (theyre prolly laughing at you). only way to counter it is to spam AD or IG maybe but you wont have unlimited AD and IG. most players hate puri proc. APS classes like archers, BM,sins. but i dont have any problem on it.

about that Sage frost arrow, i use it a lot on HA types because it's water damage not physical. Thus it has shorter cast time than any metal skill. when dealing with rrr9 HA classes, i always make sure i have 3 sparks, for Aim low and Stormrage Eaglehorn. you just need to time it right after they ran out of anti stun/immobilize. Once theyre disabled, theyre as good as dead.
i never had trouble with N3 HA classes. it's a lil bit hard to master sage but it's worth it. demon is pretty easy you just normal attack to death , get expel , AD , IG. Demon archers are overrated.

i was demon before , im happy being sage now.b:laugh

Quilue - Sanctuary

You've clearly not met some of the "rrr9 arcanes" on my server...

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Yeah common problem when everyone has +3 r9rr armour with immacs. You get comments like "I 2 shot r9rr AAs" b:victory

When you're up against a r9rr +12 josd psy in white; stunning arrow and TA wont cut it. Aps is required, not blind close my eyes auto attack ofc but will surge demon qs switch to metal when they psy will, kite them as they will most likely close the gap and get in your face, etc. That burst of aps helps alot esp when you have 7seconds of silence free hitting and a smaller window between them being in black, kiting and SoSt.

Point is, if your going to make skill comparisons it has to be at end game. Similar analogy to HA classes. I.e. seekers, if you're dropping a seeker in one metal cycle... you get my point.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Teecs - Archosaur wrote: »

im sage archer, i kill arcane with Stunning Arrow + fully charged Take Aim
not necessary full charged , i usually measure their remaining HP while im charging it.
with 5 Sec stunning arrow i can cast take aim freely w/o having any interruptions.
im not bragging but i kill rrr9 arcanes with mostly 2 hits charmed or not. i use +10 N3 bow 91 attack lvl & 16-21K phys attack.

I am too a sage archer... 31k high end unbuffed p.atk, 130+ attack levels, and 50%+ passive crit. And yet... never in my life have i manage to kill any worth while robe with stun+take aim.