Archer Demon or Sage for PK

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · September 2013

So surely sage has a little advantage there with the extra range bonus?

Are those figures including the +8% dph sage does per hit compared to demon like you mentioned earlier?
Because that would change the averages if you're not using those percentages comparatively between cultivation paths

Kharybdis - Harshlands · September 2013

Demon vs. sage on archer is pretty much up to playstyle now unlike before where sage was absolute **** when compared to demon. This being said, a lot of sage archers will forever have this superiority complex that is just...lulz. Also...

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The primary complaint I hear from top geared archers is that its difficult to kill other endgame geared (jades+12) in 1vs1. Particularly heavies. So looked at it from the other perspective, a demon archer isn't nearly as good as a sage at killing heavy armors, whereas a sage archer can't kill arcanes as efficiently as a demon, they can still do it just fine given a bit of extra time.

You don't roll an archer to 1v1 though and basing your culti choice on it is kinda dumb. It's kinda like all the BMs whining that they don't kill people in mass pk.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

So surely sage has a little advantage there with the extra range bonus?

Are those figures including the +8% dph sage does per hit compared to demon like you mentioned earlier?
Because that would change the averages if you're not using those percentages comparatively between cultivation paths

Sage range bonus of 2 meters basically rounds down to 0.38 seconds of running for most endgame toons (5.2 m/s, give or take), so....only going to count in an ideal lagless environment (i.e. never)

As for being max ranged...if an arcane in mass pvp with half a brain sees how far they are from you they'll make use of one holy path and be completely out of your range, so...

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · September 2013

You guys are still talking theory, have you actually fought against sage and demon archers? Jeez lol.

The 2 meters range is always good for one more hit in a fight; if I'm fighting a sage archer and a demon archer, and they both stun me from their max range, I have to run 2 meters further towards the sage before I can sleep/seal of gods him, which is pretty much always good for an extra hit... oh, did I forget to mention that usually I don't need to react to a demon's stun because its usually over before they can do significant dmg, but a sage stun I could potentially have to genie out of? 3 seconds vs 5 seconds, if a demon archer is casting stun before quickshot (which they may have to do otherwise I'll get to 28 meters and sleep/seal them first).

What good endgame clerics are in attack lvl shards... answer, NONE lol. Even my server's top damage, +12 r9rr deity stoned archer can't drop me in 3 seconds unless I'm getting ganked by others. Triple sparking doesn't count, because we can call that 3 seconds, triple spark is a pretty big visual cue to gtfout of there lol.

Somehow people always do ignore the dmg reduction from sage spark, but I've used that a lot to survive stuff that would have otherwise killed me, I imagine a sage archer could be doing the same.

Again, demon is about specializing in killing people who undergear you before they can react, and sage is about more consistent performance against everybody.

Cheers.

Jarkhen - Archosaur · September 2013

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

So surely sage has a little advantage there with the extra range bonus?

Are those figures including the +8% dph sage does per hit compared to demon like you mentioned earlier?
Because that would change the averages if you're not using those percentages comparatively between cultivation paths

As mentioned above, the range bonus is essentially negligible in practice.

Also, no, you're right - I forgot to include the extra base damage Sage gets in that dps calculation.

Including mastery, sage gets +42.3% dps (assuming 750 dex) compared to a hypothetical archer with no mastery, whereas demon with quickshot proc gets +73.9% (including the +4% crit from passives). Without qs proc, demon gets +22.3%; on average, +48.1%.

Demon still comes out 13.7% higher on average dps.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What good endgame clerics are in attack lvl shards... answer, NONE lol.

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

not to mention, I don't have attack level shards myself. If (once) I do, and am therefore roughly equally geared with a jaded arcane, they'll drop just as fast as non-jaded arcanes do for me now.

And again, please note I clearly mentioned that this is without plume shell, psy will, or what have you, so if that's where you're going with this try a different approach.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · September 2013

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

When demon qs procs, you get +51% dps with stun/sta. When it doesn't, you only get 6.25%... but on average you get +28.625% dps with stun/sta. You can still expect to beat sage's +23.75% with qs+windshield on average, without needing to use your genie. A demon archer whose qs fails the first time but procs the second time has pulled actually significantly more than +28.625% dps, because they can re-cast qs after another 2.4 seconds - compared to a sage that only gets +23.75%.

Maybe you can also do a post on which sin/sin build can aps faster/for more damage... considering you seems to like to compare the skill damage effect of two 1.5s skills against one 1.5s skill and an insta cast (fyi. sage qs/windshield combo is pretty **** considering the opportunity cost in anything other than extremely small scale pk).

Even by your logic... a given sage archer should pull off the same 2 skills along with insta cast windshield. the extra hp debuff is going to equal an extra 800 damage every charm tick or 10 seconds (which ever comes sooner) on a 20k hp target. the extra stun time is going to equal at least an extra shot with no non-genie retaliation. ignoring skill effects while only concerned about damage output is as noob as anyone ever gets... maybe you should start telling bm to stop using roar since it does NO damage. Anyways... I'll let you know what happens the next time a sin try to aps me.

Kharybdis - Harshlands wrote: »

Demon vs. sage on archer is pretty much up to playstyle now unlike before where sage was absolute **** when compared to demon. This being said, a lot of sage archers will forever have this superiority complex that is just...lulz. Also...

If I recall... i am the 3rd sage archer on ht... so I am as "before" as we can get. In before... archer was never about cult... its about who can get the best weapon to stomp the 5k hp robes. Its actually until recently (in the grand scheme of things) that archer skill useage/effect actually start to matter as we can no longer one shot robes/la. by saying "sage was absolute ****" mean you never faced a +10 tt90 gold xbow archer in your tt90 robe armor. sage or demon... you are going to die just the same.

Taking pk advice from a bunch of people whose only concern is the amount of damage any character can do in a given second is just stupid. If you really want to do that... roll a sin... you'll have the absolute highest dps of anyone for miles.

Quilue - Sanctuary · September 2013

Archers don't typically use 3 spark to survive...because they can use WoG, which also happens to give the same 3s immune 3 spark does, lasts as long as a 3 spark's buff, and offers greater reduction.

The only class that gets away with popping 3 spark left and right is sins.

3 spark comes out faster, sure, but a lot of experienced archers will use WoG at the right time when they need it.

As for Sage vs Demon, stop theorizing ****.

Experience tells me opponents are not always at max range, unless maybe if it's archer vs archer; if you fight other classes, they are usually well within your range. Very rarely do people run out of range with 1 hit left.

Even if they do, you can chase down with Alacrity, your own genie skills, and Leaps.

Experience also tells me people don't take damage only when they are stunned. That is, unless you're a BM or something - but this isn't BM forum. Sage 5s stun is very nice, but don't think Demon QS is over as soon as stun is over. I don't know about you, but a lot of my killing are well after stun has worn off, or not having stunned at all. It's called having range.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · September 2013

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage range bonus of 2 meters basically rounds down to 0.38 seconds of running for most endgame toons (5.2 m/s, give or take), so....only going to count in an ideal lagless environment (i.e. never)

As for being max ranged...if an arcane in mass pvp with half a brain sees how far they are from you they'll make use of one holy path and be completely out of your range, so...

Range bonus equals nothing?
And yet I can still stun/immobilise a demon archer or any robe and rick roll them without them hitting my pretty much 100% of the time.
If you really believe I can't, or any sage with my gear can't, you've pretty much proved my point about robes being able to get away without you demon quickshotting them and apsing them to death. They're just not going to stand there and let you fap arrows on their face. There aren't many dot/deity robes around, the only robe it would really make sense to do it on is a wizard or MAYBE a psychic.

Pretty much what kiyoshi said here, if you're just going to compare damage over a certain period of time and use an ideal world of a pure 50% proc rate then sure, not really sure how you're calculating any sort of boost in dps when demon quickshot doesn't proc, cause it should really be 0% if you're doing your maths right!

If you're using Sta as some way to boost what demon damage looks like then whilst your archer is capping away trying to get sta off and quick shot to proc mines already hit twice as much if not more than yours. GG on manipulating random numbers to make it look like you have a point though

RankNine - Momaganon · September 2013

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Range bonus equals nothing?
And yet I can still stun/immobilise a demon archer or any robe and rick roll them without them hitting my pretty much 100% of the time.
If you really believe I can't, or any sage with my gear can't, you've pretty much proved my point about robes being able to get away without you demon quickshotting them and apsing them to death. They're just not going to stand there and let you fap arrows on their face. There aren't many dot/deity robes around, the only robe it would really make sense to do it on is a wizard or MAYBE a psychic.

Pretty much what kiyoshi said here, if you're just going to compare damage over a certain period of time and use an ideal world of a pure 50% proc rate then sure, not really sure how you're calculating any sort of boost in dps when demon quickshot doesn't proc, cause it should really be 0% if you're doing your maths right!

If you're using Sta as some way to boost what demon damage looks like then whilst your archer is capping away trying to get sta off and quick shot to proc mines already hit twice as much if not more than yours. GG on manipulating random numbers to make it look like you have a point though

there is no point arguing with the person you quoted. she is a beast on dreamweaver and knows it all

and @topic...demon spark + vicious arrow all day!b:shocked

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · September 2013

RankNine - Momaganon wrote: »

there is no point arguing with the person you quoted. she is a beast on dreamweaver and knows it all

and @topic...demon spark + vicious arrow all day!b:shocked

Sarcastically laughing at me because I didn't spend $20K on a free game so I can camp at west stroking my epeen? lol. I'm G16 +3~5 (+7 hat) with +5 G15 weapon, I know I'm a oneshot so take that ******* attitude elsewhere ty. b:bye

Back on topic: IDK about you but when I see an archer's bow glow in the front I hit fortify or WoG (most random pubbie randoms don't do this, it seems) and walk into ~25 meters so that I have some breathing space but can leap out of range and kite if the other person's weapon is too OP. Same with robes. I don't stay at max unless it's ganking some random sub-G16 in NW.

And as an interesting point I am sage. I've been mulling over bust phys dps vs. chi and better elemental damage (Demon QS has no effect on elemental skills, after all); Probably will make a decision whether to switch or not once I get all my armor to +5 and above, get decent orns and get a G16 weapon + celestial skills

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · September 2013

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sarcastically laughing at me because I didn't spend $20K on a free game so I can camp at west stroking my epeen? lol. I'm G16 +3~5 (+7 hat) with +5 G15 weapon, I know I'm a oneshot so take that ******* attitude elsewhere ty. b:bye

Sucks for you since I spend $120 bucks on the game and was one of the very first people with r9s. I am 3rd stage r9 +10/11 with +12 weap... and I one shot people who believe not spending money is even relevant or an excuse to have **** gears.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Back on topic: IDK about you but when I see an archer's bow glow in the front I hit fortify or WoG (most random pubbie randoms don't do this, it seems) and walk into ~25 meters so that I have some breathing space but can leap out of range and kite if the other person's weapon is too OP. Same with robes. I don't stay at max unless it's ganking some random sub-G16 in NW.

And as an interesting point I am sage. I've been mulling over bust phys dps vs. chi and better elemental damage (Demon QS has no effect on elemental skills, after all); Probably will make a decision whether to switch or not once I get all my armor to +5 and above, get decent orns and get a G16 weapon + celestial skills

No one really stuns a target with 6-7k hp.... because well... there is no need to. having damage reduction is nice and all... but against someone who is capable of hitting multiples of your hp... is really pointless. People with **** gear isn't useful for dealing damage, unless of course you can gather a group of friends to assist target. The effect from your skills is actually going to be more useful than your damage output.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And as an interesting point I am sage. I've been mulling over bust phys dps vs. chi and better elemental damage (Demon QS has no effect on elemental skills, after all); Probably will make a decision whether to switch or not once I get all my armor to +5 and above, get decent orns and get a G16 weapon + celestial skills

For someone with **** gear... you got a lot of coins stashed. Or you haven't figure out that once you switch cult... you lose all your level 11 skills.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · September 2013

I only have sage frost arrow, mastery, blazing, knockback, lightning strike, take aim, none of which are particularly expensive skills, an two of which I won't even need to Demon should I decide to switch later.

As for my damage output, I can kill most people in NW that aren't OP, my bow's purge has screwed more than one person (most delicious moment: R9rr wiz fully buffed running with flag, gets purged, suddenly my damage goes from 500 dph to 4.8K crits and he dies)

Money wise I'll be farming R9 after my G16 set is finished. Until then, I'm fine being a "nobody" and stick to killing people of my level of gear in NW. West gate is too OP

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · September 2013

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As for my damage output, I can kill most people in NW that aren't OP, my bow's purge has screwed more than one person (most delicious moment: R9rr wiz fully buffed running with flag, gets purged, suddenly my damage goes from 500 dph to 4.8K crits and he dies)

b:shocked Why does this remind me of Geckofreak?

More on topic, regardless of all the maths which just proves that demons can POTENTIALLY do more damage than a sage over a time frame of months playing which really doesn't mean a great deal, I don't see any sages ever having complained about their inability to kill robes. In TW archers should be assist attacking and ganking anyway which should only take a couple of shots anyway from each.

Like I said - demon is traditionally better when sage never was,
now the line is more blurred and the difference is defined by personal preference and game play.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · September 2013

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As for my damage output, I can kill most people in NW that aren't OP, my bow's purge has screwed more than one person (most delicious moment: R9rr wiz fully buffed running with flag, gets purged, suddenly my damage goes from 500 dph to 4.8K crits and he dies)

Either we have different defination of 3rd cast r9 wiz... or I seriously got jipped when it comes to my gear. My bow gets over 30k high end raw damage along with my 130+ attack levels... and yet your +5 g15 bow might actually be critting higher than me on a unbuffed wiz.

INaTTaNI - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Demon = low self-esteem, relying on pure chance. Sage = ability to anticipate and interchanging their actions.
I do not want to offend anyone, just by reading the writings, I had just such an impression. Somehow, the more argumentative players found a Sage.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · September 2013

INaTTaNI - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Demon = low self-esteem, relying on pure chance. Sage = ability to anticipate and interchanging their actions.
I do not want to offend anyone, just by reading the writings, I had just such an impression. Somehow, the more argumentative players found a Sage.

This literally had me gasping with laughter.

Was it 'I don't want to offend anybody' right after offending the majority of archers? Was it the bit about 'the more argumentatitve players found a Sage'? Either way, I love it.

Once more. LOL!

Zsw - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Well, archers are quite chance based. You need to crit, or you're not killing anyone.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Either we have different defination of 3rd cast r9 wiz... or I seriously got jipped when it comes to my gear. My bow gets over 30k high end raw damage along with my 130+ attack levels... and yet your +5 g15 bow might actually be critting higher than me on a unbuffed wiz.

Last time I peeped he had 4 deity stones in chest, rest immac citrines, definitely far from high refines on his orns, so I'm not talking about absolutely everything OP geared

tsyfall · September 2013

INaTTaNI - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Demon = low self-esteem,
Your evidence?

relying on pure chance.
Archers are a crit based class. Crit is luck. All archers are based in part on luck. Saying this is like saying that chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla ice cream because vanilla ice cream uses milk.

Sage = ability to anticipate and interchanging their actions.
Any reason as to why Demon archers can't do this as well?

I do not want to offend anyone, just by reading the writings, I had just such an impression.
So if this post was filled with people saying that "Best archer PKs with -chan arcane gear while singing religious hymns to elephants," would you believe that?
Reading the majority of opinions in no way makes you an expert on the topic.

Somehow, the more argumentative players found a Sage.
Again. If 50 people stand and hop on one foot and say bullcrap, does that mean you'll believe them?
Number of supporters in no way means correct or incorrectness of argument.

I almost choked on my tea because I was laughing so hard. I admit that I did spill some on my shirt.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear · September 2013

INaTTaNI - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Demon = low self-esteem, relying on pure chance. Sage = ability to anticipate and interchanging their actions.
I do not want to offend anyone, just by reading the writings, I had just such an impression. Somehow, the more argumentative players found a Sage.

Funny that you say demon archers have low self esteem. It's usually the sage archers going on and on about how awesome sage is supposedly over demon as if they're being defensive about their cultivation choice. It's the demon archers who for the most part admit that after the sage buffs, demon and sage are similarly viable. I don't really think sage archers picked a bad culti but I do think a lot of sage archers are suspiciously defensive, as if they're insecure or something.

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear · September 2013

INaTTaNI - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Demon = low self-esteem, relying on pure chance. Sage = ability to anticipate and interchanging their actions.
I do not want to offend anyone, just by reading the writings, I had just such an impression. Somehow, the more argumentative players found a Sage.

Quite honestly you haven't the slightest proof in any of your statements and are just making a fool out of yourself. Sage has just been made more of a viable choice because they got a crit proc on their quickshot. OHHHH GG its a game changer!!!! In previous arguments I have and will stand by my choice of demon over sage. Once again this was MY choice. I've met some good sage archers in my travels but they are few quite honestly. The vast majority of pvp archers I see here on HT are demon. The choice of a person's culti is theirs to make, my suggestion has and always will be look at what each side of the spectrum offers and make an INFORMED decision. Have fun and I hope whoever needed this advice finds the culti they like more.

INaTTaNI - Dreamweaver · September 2013

First of all, in my text, you will not find gonna say it Demon or Sage is a bad or good choice (read carefully). Secondly, I also still can not argue which side better, I am still in the selection process.
The forum just looking for logical and reasonable responses.

P.S. And the truth is I would never become an expert in reading the topic, even it is not meant to be (I see me in here without such complete).

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · September 2013

The OP thought he was asking a simple question, surely expecting a simple answer.

What came about was a fierce debate in the chambers of the archer forums.

On one side we had a gathering of demons and advocates of the demons, perhaps a last arrogant defence of their historical superiority over sages, still bruising from the recent skill rebalances, seeing their long standing advantage over sage having been mercilessly chipped away.

On the other side we had sages, emerging from their safehavens, still relatively unsure and a tad (justifiably given the history) timid to speak up in defence of new found rebalances, but a few did stand tall in the face of much adversity and barrage of mathematical arrows, to valiantly reclaim their rightful place in the annals of elven ranks.

I salute all those that came to the intellectual battlefield with their colours, cultivations and banners, elf and non elf. Let us not squabble amongst ourselves, now is the age of peace, of balance, and of coexistance.

b:chuckle

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · September 2013

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The OP thought he was asking a simple question, surely expecting a simple answer.

What came about was a fierce debate in the chambers of the archer forums.

On one side we had a gathering of demons and advocates of the demons, perhaps a last arrogant defence of their historical superiority over sages, still bruising from the recent skill rebalances, seeing their long standing advantage over sage having been mercilessly chipped away.

On the other side we had sages, emerging from their safehavens, still relatively unsure and a tad (justifiably given the history) timid to speak up in defence of new found rebalances, but a few did stand tall in the face of much adversity and barrage of mathematical arrows, to valiantly reclaim their rightful place in the annals of elven ranks.

I salute all those that came to the intellectual battlefield with their colours, cultivations and banners, elf and non elf. Let us not squabble amongst ourselves, now is the age of peace, of balance, and of coexistance.

b:chuckle

Hear hear these words all elves both small and tall. Together we are brethren, let us all stand in the face of... wait one fricken second, gtf away from me you purge monsters! Be banished! Sink into a pit and drown in your own saliva, RAWWWWRGG!!!!@#!@#

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hear hear these words all elves both small and tall. Together we are brethren, let us all stand in the face of... wait one fricken second, gtf away from me you purge monsters! Be banished! Sink into a pit and drown in your own saliva, RAWWWWRGG!!!!@#!@#

Greatly saddened I am, as I'm sure are many of my kind, that our distant cousins the elven priests, who once were a peaceful, compassionate race, dedicated to the arts of healing and restoring the souls of the slain, have become corrupt in their thirst for power and glory employing the gifts bestowed upon them by the goddess of morai not for good but for evil.

The ritual dance performed to the metallic gods infusing them with their power, such sacrilege of their heritage rendering them unable to heal, but instead the very opposite to block the blessings of the healing gods upon others, hellbent on wreaking havoc across our lands.

b:shocked

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur · September 2013

Aesthor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Funny that you say demon archers have low self esteem. It's usually the sage archers going on and on about how awesome sage is supposedly over demon as if they're being defensive about their cultivation choice. It's the demon archers who for the most part admit that after the sage buffs, demon and sage are similarly viable. I don't really think sage archers picked a bad culti but I do think a lot of sage archers are suspiciously defensive, as if they're insecure or something.

And the reason sage archers feel the need to defend our choice is because for so long demon archers looked down on us. It used to be sage archer=failed. It didn't matter how well they played or knew the class, but just by saying you were sage no one took you seriously. If you need proof of that just look at the archer Demon/Sage guide posted on the forum. The whole guide says sage archers suck and you're stupid if you choose that path.

I will admit that I am defensive about going sage because I find myself always having to justify my choice. Often when I tell people I'm a sage archer, their first response is "why" followed up by some snarky comment that I must not be very good player or accused of being a power leveler. I've been playing an archer for well over 2 1/2 years now, it was my first toon to make and I love the class. Two days ago I finally reached level 100 (my first level 100) and for someone to say I don't know how to play my archer just because I chose to be sage is highly insulting.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · September 2013

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Last time I peeped he had 4 deity stones in chest, rest immac citrines, definitely far from high refines on his orns, so I'm not talking about absolutely everything OP geared

Let me guess... he one of those wannabe r9s that run around with less than 10k hp. Just cause someone has r9 doesn't mean hes worth to be called an r9. I go up with robes with ~20k hp (sometimes more) and here you are telling me about immac cit. Just cause you knocked out a pasty white kid... doesn't mean you should be giving fighting advice.

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur wrote: »

And the reason sage archers feel the need to defend our choice is because for so long demon archers looked down on us. It used to be sage archer=failed. It didn't matter how well they played or knew the class, but just by saying you were sage no one took you seriously. If you need proof of that just look at the archer Demon/Sage guide posted on the forum. The whole guide says sage archers suck and you're stupid if you choose that path.

LOL. I bet if you can manage to group all these sage archers whom feels the need to actually defend their choice of cult and are being falled fail... I can one shot them all.

Go take a look at gears... those who defends their cult choice are the ones running around with sub 10k hp. At that level... its not the cult that failed you... its you who failed the cult. Sage cult is very unforgiving of those with subpar gears... whlie demon makes an effort mask subpar gear.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear · September 2013

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur wrote: »

And the reason sage archers feel the need to defend our choice is because for so long demon archers looked down on us. It used to be sage archer=failed. It didn't matter how well they played or knew the class, but just by saying you were sage no one took you seriously. If you need proof of that just look at the archer Demon/Sage guide posted on the forum. The whole guide says sage archers suck and you're stupid if you choose that path.

I will admit that I am defensive about going sage because I find myself always having to justify my choice. Often when I tell people I'm a sage archer, their first response is "why" followed up by some snarky comment that I must not be very good player or accused of being a power leveler. I've been playing an archer for well over 2 1/2 years now, it was my first toon to make and I love the class. Two days ago I finally reached level 100 (my first level 100) and for someone to say I don't know how to play my archer just because I chose to be sage is highly insulting.

That isn't true. Demon archers don't look down on sage archers. Better archers look down on crappy archers. None of the good sage archers I know have ever been defensive about their culti. No one looks down on them either. This was true even pre-buff, when demon was considered the superior choice. If you're a good player it doesn't matter what culti you choose.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Let me guess... he one of those wannabe r9s that run around with less than 10k hp. Just cause someone has r9 doesn't mean hes worth to be called an r9. I go up with robes with ~20k hp (sometimes more) and here you are telling me about immac cit. Just cause you knocked out a pasty white kid... doesn't mean you should be giving fighting advice.

I saw him in Arch on my catshop. +6 G15 cube neck, R8 ring and R9 ring, perfect citrines (not immacs) and rest +10 (I think), so no, not up to your standards, but a mile above my G16 +3 flawless standard.

When I talk I usually talk about experience fighting people my own gear level since getting oneshot doesn't really count for much. Yea, there's going to be a disconnect between what I can or can't do and what works and what works at your gear level (an extremely small community, if I must say). I hit level 70 at around the time NW came out and missed no more than 3 NWs so it's not like I have zero pvp experience, lol.

RankNine - Momaganon · September 2013

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sarcastically laughing at me because I didn't spend $20K on a free game so I can camp at west stroking my epeen? lol. I'm G16 +3~5 (+7 hat) with +5 G15 weapon, I know I'm a oneshot so take that ******* attitude elsewhere ty. b:bye

laughing at you? yes
sarcastically? no
because you didnt spend 20 k? no, i love those that ensure that i can play this game for free.
and i spend my time in tt/lunar/worldbosses/BH/delta/events, not westgate. thats 2009.
i am making fun of you because you keep talking about stuff that you have no clue about.
why would you even go sage with such gear..

Archer Demon or Sage for PK

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