Archer Demon or Sage for PK

Demon is mostly about DPS, evident by the 30% more attack speed from Demon Quickshot.
Sage is a little bit about DPS, and a bit about DPH.

However, Archers don't have any real DPH skills. They lack the xxx% weapon damage addons that most other classes have, except on BoA, but that's a zhen really.

Personally I prefer Demon. Archers are the only viable end game auto attack class, and does it extremely well.

Before the SoW update, I wouldn't recommend Sage at all. However, the Sage Quickshot update made Sages a bit better. Though, I would say it is personal preference as to whether you feel Sage is actually better than Demon or not.

Zowie - Morai wrote: »

Well that post is not updated.
I check on http://pwi.ecatomb.net/skill.php And its updated Last update: 20/06/2013.

So the skills are not the same as it says on the forum post you just linked me so its not up to date.

But thanks for the post. Im pretty sure i go Demon now when i hit her 89.

It's not updated. I stated that it was before the SoW update. I linked it to highlight the main reason why Sage was bad before the update. However, today

the Sage Quickshot update made Sages a bit better. Though, I would say it is personal preference as to whether you feel Sage is actually better than Demon or not.

Demon archer gets more purges on my cleric, purges can kill me.

Sage archer procs my purify less often because of superior crit and dph, and that can kill me too.

I really like sage archer for killing light and heavy armor people, due to the 50% physical and magical defense debuff on the archer 2 spark metal skill. Demon archers just have a lot of difficulty killing seekers and barbs and bms, talking endgame here.

Demon archers are going to tend to purge faster and be able to take out more weaker targets more efficiently, particularly arcanes.

Both good, both have their place. Choose your style

Overall even after the update I still prefer demon.

Whichever way you look at it, archers bread and butter is stun qs auto or qs stun auto most of the time. Endgame you really need to purge and with demon qs you stand the best chance to purge.

In pvp when I embraced a faith genie I really missed cloud eruption and envied sage archers till I forced myself to always spam insta cast take aim (hold down the button or double tap) this gives alot more chi than autoattack and casts nearly as fast and havent had chi problems since.

Also demon BoA is beastly when you use it, and although sage gives you damage reduction in most cases you'd be stupid to not IG etc before using it so kinda pointless.

The two spark metal skill is a massive waste of chi whichever cultivation imo and would never use it or lvl it regardless. Being one of the squishiest classes to both physical and magic you really need to use wings of grace for damge reduction charm cd and antistun so would be wise to conserve chi, and in most intense pvp situations like NW you almost want a
perma antistun so you can kite effectively.

Also demon lightning strike is a very reliable finishing fast casting skill as the demon version never misses.

Just my thoughts.

Demon.

_Shui - Harshlands wrote: »

Because removing buffs is so op.

Anyone who thinks purge isn't effective in PvP... has not done much PvP.

_Shui - Harshlands wrote: »

Sage..... but it would better to get some -cha gear instead so you turn DPH into DPS.

I hate calling people out but wow. Just wow. I seriously hope you were trolling. If not then you're playing the wrong class. Reroll wizzy? b:shocked

_Shui - Harshlands wrote: »

Comes from some1 on a PVE server.

Oooh, I'm a big scary PvP server player

b:surrender hate to break it to you but PvE server players can PvP too

Kharybdis - Harshlands wrote: »

You are absolutely dense if can't see why purge is one of the most useful procs in end-game PVP.

Teach me master

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Demon: 2% crit and 75% weapon damage

*4% with white wings

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

+1% crit and another +1% with elf wings

For both passives.

1% (winged blessing) + 1% (bow mastery) + 1% (blessing w/ white wings) + 1% (mastery w/ white wings) => +4%

Everybody looks at it from this perspective 'archer's job is to kill arcanes' hmm? The primary complaint I hear from top geared archers is that its difficult to kill other endgame geared (jades+12) in 1vs1. Particularly heavies. So looked at it from the other perspective, a demon archer isn't nearly as good as a sage at killing heavy armors, whereas a sage archer can't kill arcanes as efficiently as a demon, they can still do it just fine given a bit of extra time. Faster average chi gain means its easier to expend chi on, say, triple sparking, or on their 2 spark skill for 50% magic and phy defense debuffs... debuffs that anybody, not just the archer, can benefit massively from. (Taking down a tough barb? Double spark, or put -50% debuffs on? Clearly the debuffs are superior cuz many people are hitting barb, not just you).

And sure low geared archers aren't gonna see much difference in frost arrow being magic dmg, and dps sins have equally poor physical and magic defense lol, so thats not at all a valid test. Against heavy armors, where a physical dmg may do a fantastic 1-2k dmg, a frost arrow that does maybe 4k is gonna be a heck of a lot better, and remembers archers crit a lot, so they don't necessarily need the dph of an arcane, they have a great chance to crit on every single magic attack they throw.

A sage archer with 50% magic debuff and blood vow and thunder shock will do more average dmg with their metal skills than I as a r9rr cleric could, because of their much higher crit rate and the strength of their debuffs (metal defense lowered by 100%). I've seen zooming thunder powder combo from a sage archer take down a fully jaded +12 r9rr barb before he could react. You tell me if a demon archer could do that... without the 50% debuff, I think not... even I, the supposed metal mage class, can't kill that fast even if I do use zooming thunder powder... and yeah, I can't purge easily either.

So say what you like, I have SEEN what a sage archer can do. I'm not going to say 'sage is better' or 'demon is better' but I can say they both can perform well if you play them right. If the demon is more specialized at arcane killing, the sage is more well rounded and capable of knocking down even some of the toughest heavy armors... and I will say again, a sage archer hits harder on average per hit, and is thus less likely to proc my purify weapon.

Closing note: sage vs demon archer 1vs1, sage has the obvious advantage... don't tell me the range doesn't count cuz it sure as hell does lol. Fancy getting immobilized out of your attack range, and if you teleport you won't be able to do anything till immobilize wears off? Because barring lag the sage can always get first hits off; he can kite back, gain the range advantage again, and stun first every time: a 5 second stun in which he has plenty of time to purge or kill the demon archer.

Cheers,

Aeliah

So demon is better because of quickshot increased aps?
There's absolutely no way for a sage archer to ever increase their aps!?
b:laugh

Sage isn't bad, it's just different. purge is only useful on a buffed target, its proc rate is so low anyway you can't say "oh demon archers have a much better chance to purge because they use quickshot to do more shots per unit time so chance to purge is higher per unit time" like it's a significant point. Sage archers are just as capable of purging as demons, they're just not dependent on quickshot to gain an advantage over the other culti in terms of ability to purge. What's more, demon quickshot has a 50% proc rate. That's not particularly high, but it's not particularly low. So half the time you cast it, you would have done more damage by just auto attacking twice (if we're talking about end game here). And what's wrong with windshield? Instacast, increase in aps, reduces damage taken.. (yes it overrides evasion buff but really that buff is next to useless at endgame anyway). If you build your genie right it can reduce damage almost as much as WoG. And yeah I know it doesnt boost aps as much as quickshot but consider when demon quickshot does proc:

STA/Stunning arrow (that will never purge) + demon QS (3.7-4.2 seconds)
VS
sage Quickshot+ insta cast windshield (1.6 seconds)

It's not a bad trade off?

I'm not saying demon sucks or sage is better. I'm just picking up on some points that seem to have been missed out/over looked/twisted to make it sound like sage is completely inferior to demon.

When demon quickshot procs yeah its great, you get a whopping boost in DPS. But while you're getting a higher chance to purge, since this debate seems to be revolving mainly around the archers abilities to take out arcanes in mass pk, you're also more likely to proc their purify proc which everyone agrees is a right pain in the *** not just for you but everyone on your side whos trying to CC/hit that kiting ****.

Not only this, demon quickshot isnt spammable the way sage quickshot is. What i mean is - it has a 3 second cooldown which is about 3-4 hits on an end game archer at which point you'll probably cast it again losing another 2 potential hits.
If it doesnt proc you can't use it straight away. You have to wait 3 seconds. You can debate all you want but 3 seconds is pretty long, by then an arcane could have expelled, ad'd, ig'd, kited - whatever it does to keep itself alive.

Demon archers have higher base crit, but non spammable crit skills which make their max crit lower than a sage archers.

Other main skills like Aim low have little difference, I'm not even going to bother discussing the elemental skills because to me they're honestly more about personal preference. They don't do enough damage for either culti to warrant a decent debate about which is better.
I like the extra CC demon thunder shock offers and the 100% accuracy on thunder strike (although, this is most likely to be used on a HA where accuracy and evasion shouldnt really be that much of an issue) and I can see how they're useful.

The same goes for STA and Stunning arrow in that - i really think it depends how you play.

Demon BOA is better hands down, no arguments there, I'm not really sure why they decided to put in a reduction of damage.. it would have made more sense to give sage archers a harder hit for the sake of balance but perhaps they thought that by giving sage archers more chi skills they would have more opportunities to BOA?... Idk it's possible but thats always there to consider even if it is a clutch at straws.

Apologies if this post has really offended you, most likely you're a demon that's butthurt that I made some pretty valid points here, but you guys have had your fair share of time being better than sages. Now archers are one of the most balanced of classes in terms of culti in my opinion. There really is no "better" over all. Sure you can talk about maths and numbers and % dps and whatever but at the end of the day, it's all situational and mostly comes down to personal preference.

Edit: forgot to add - Demon spark is better than sage in pretty much every situation, but a sage could spark more often although - using 3 sparks up like that is quite rare without the use of apoth anyway.

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

Except you've also used your genie, whereas the demon archer's is still free for defenses.
Wind Shield may not require an excessive amount of energy, but when you're spamming it constantly like you're proposing, 60-some energy is a lot - especially if you're running a dex build genie like you mentioned rather than the typical archer's vit/mag genie build.

Demon Stun + QS = +51% dps (proc) or +6.25% dps (no proc) - +28.625% average
Sage QS + Windshield = +23.75% dps

Demon's option gives higher average dps (though granted not by a lot), higher spike dps, and doesn't use your genie nor lock you into a dex build genie.

If you really want to run things based on worst-case scenarios, Sage wins out here, sure. Otherwise, no.



I would argue an arcane wasting AD or IG when my quickshot hasn't even procced is a good thing, not a bad one.



A lot of an archer's ability to take down arcanes easily, especially in mass PvP, relies on killing them before they're able to do anything about it - because if they AD, IG, or kite away, you're done until they're back in the fight un-immune. Demon quickshot makes this especially easy - +51% dps (w/ STA/stun) is an absolutely massive increase, and damn near any arcane (except clerics with shell and psys with will, naturally) will drop in 2-3 seconds flat. Unless they're already at max range and moving away, not even purify proc is going to save them from that. If quickshot doesn't proc, half the time you can still kill them, and if not, run around and hit them again.

Sage gives slightly higher dph (~8% higher), but their ability to kill an arcane before they can react is significantly (~22% dps) lower, which gives the target more time to use defensive skills. This 22% increase in dps comes at a cost of shooting 18% more arrows in the same time span as a sage that's hitting wind shield - and 22% more damage with an 18% higher chance to proc purify is a viable tradeoff even before you account for the fact that the demon archer's genie is still full.



Demon STA = +10% crit for 15 seconds, 15 second cooldown.

What was that again?


Pre-emptive ad hominem much? That tends to be looked down upon in intellectual conversations. Don't do it.

Apologies, i will admit i made a mistake about the STA but even so, 2.6 second channel+cast time skill for such a small boost in DPS?

I dont know what kind of "end game arcane" classes you've been fighting but I am yet to see a demon archer aps one down in 3 seconds flat.

As for having used a genie skill, it only uses 35 energy at level 1, more if you level it up which would constitute in more reduction of damage protecting you for a time. Like i said, its not such a bad thing really.

Again with all the percentages. This maths is not situational. 50% of the time demon quickshot doesnt even work and at that point a sage one has and can keep auto attacking for 5-6 hits where they're out dpsing a demon at which point after 3 hits a demon would probably cast quickshot again making a grand total of 5 hits all lower in damage on average than a sage archers hits of which he's output 7. How about you calculate the percentage of DPS lost by a demon archer compared to a sage when quickshot doesnt proc - which is a "significant" proportion of attempts.

So yeah when it procs sure - demon quickshot is amazing. When it doesnt, its a waste of time.

Also - 18% of whatever our purge proc is 50% of the time, is really not that much of a reason to say that demon quickshot is more viable than sage.

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

Just about any non-jaded arcane (even with +12 armor) drops in 4, maybe 5 hits, with adequate crits. Given that archers run around with 70-80% crit buffed, that's not a rare scenario.

Not really what I'd call "End game" then.. and also wanted to add - why in TW would you not be at max range from an arcane? Or at least, why would they not be their max range from you (which isnt all that much shorter than ours and pretty easy to escape our attacks from) There can't be many situations like that since range is one of the big advantages we have. If you're too far forward you're just going to get rolled.

Pointing out here that I'm referring to TW, not to a 1v1 where your target is going to have ample warning and preparation time.

agreed - no point talking about 1v1. I was also talking about TW or rather any sort of mass PVP



I must admit, I'm not sure I see what you're getting at here.
updated my post sorry, i realised it wasnt clear before you responded

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