Possible idea for helping new BMs

Sylvae - Sanctuary · February 2013

Just an idea that popped into mind that could be more constructive than the usual style that happens in the forum.

The biggest hurdle between knowing how to play, and knowing how to play in PvP is usually things dealing with reaction time. You may know what skill you should use if you see X happening, but it might not be ingrained enough to automatically do it instead of just think it. Or the skills might not be order in a way to facillatate the easy transition for them. Or they might not know what to pay attention to on the screen, or a strange combo you've encountered that could be useful to share.

To get this to them, and more importantly teach how to think for themself in a given situation, I was thinking of this: A BM posts a scenario with so much information. They give a time frame in both PST and GMT for when the due date will be up. During this everyone is entitled to ask questions to help get a clearer picture of the exact circumstances.

When experienced people ask, it gives an idea for people reading for things they might have missed, or something to look for in the future. This teaches them to be more aware. As well the asking of questions for novices gets them in the habit of thinking about what might matter for their playstyle. And everyone reading can mix and matche as needed.

When the time is done, the OP then gives more detail on the specific encounter and then people formulate what they would do in the given situation. This will work better with people from all gear ranges giving their input, and maybe a brief rundown of their gear. That way people have a general idea of what to build towards, or things to start practicing as they level up. And they can try different playstyles and see what they want to work towards.

It doesn't necessarily require something as full blown as that; it could be a question of "why would class X have this skill on genie, do this particular combo,etc." For just a short and quick thread that still brings to attention a possible new combo to watch out for.

When you see some our posts in here, it can also be a better way to share a particularly enjoyable battle. We've all told of something pretty sweet that's been pulled off; if we do it in this format we can get other ideas for future plans, as well as be able to give the mindset behind why we did X, and why it seemed to work.

So, sound at all like something others are interested in? Wouldn't be mandatory obviously, and even a thread done randomly can possibly be of help.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · February 2013

I think Id actually have to see it going to really understand what youre trying to accomplish.

Also posting from a Cleric toon is really the best way for you to not get listened to (post with your BM avatar heh). Oddly people put up with **** grammar and spelling before that.

TBH tho, most of the stuff past the guides really need/should be experienced in game, but asking actual high level questions would be good (cause lets face it, if you did a general ask anything thread it would be 90% answered by the guides or silly questions about how often Kossy uses a pole.)

TheDan - Sanctuary · February 2013

There's so many possible combos, possible events that could happen that it'd be hard to determine the best possible way to react to it in every given situation.

Unless you can simulate the exact situation somehow using "bots" like in other games it's hard to really re-create an exact same PvP situation. I'm a firm believer you learn best with experience, kinda how most jobs require years of experience, and won't hire just based off reading up on it alone.

I will post from time to time and help where I can, but yeah it's kind of a broad subject considering an infinite amount of possible encounters in PvP lol.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · February 2013

*points to FAQ*

I have done all I can

In terms of reaction time? go play a juggle based mmo or FPS and learn your keys or just play more is all I can say to em telface

Jaabg - Sanctuary · February 2013

Sounds fun, we already did this on reckless rush, nw strategy, and a few other topics. I'll post where i can (increase my post count b:cute).

silly questions about how often Kossy uses a pole

i thought he was a bare fist guy b:sad.

The one problem with the idea is detail. As dan, mal pointed out, if the question is not specific, with relevant detail included, it would be hard to say anything. For example, bad question: "how to kill r9 archers? I use g16 axes" That being said, my strategy is simple in nw, tw. I use my claws on a sinlge target, no matter who it is, or what class (except r9 3rd cast casters). They all die quick enough to my claws compared to my axe. Naturally i know/feel the kind of archer is when i get hit, the skills they use, the buff icons i see on my thing. Depending on the situation, i rush in, or i pull back, numerous scenarios pop out. If the question is more targeted, specific, i can better explain on what i do. That is where i fear most people will fail in asking is providing the relevant details and setting up the scenario with all unknowns.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · February 2013

Are... Are you... Are you giving us homework Sylvae?

So basically troubleshooting different scenarios. I like the idea, and whether its effective at teaching the community or just for improving skills of the 6 BMs from Sanctuary that will actively participate regularly I think it'd be fun. The forums are so dead nowadays that the millions of different scenarios will keep us entertained.

Plus, Joshcja won't shuddup until he beats my post count again so, for forum goers sakes, this may be the best route to shutting him up

opkossy · February 2013

And we all know I'd be lurking the thread and adding names to my list of people to violently slaughter. b:cute

Sylvae - Sanctuary · February 2013

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

There's so many possible combos, possible events that could happen that it'd be hard to determine the best possible way to react to it in every given situation.

Unless you can simulate the exact situation somehow using "bots" like in other games it's hard to really re-create an exact same PvP situation. I'm a firm believer you learn best with experience, kinda how most jobs require years of experience, and won't hire just based off reading up on it alone.

I will post from time to time and help where I can, but yeah it's kind of a broad subject considering an infinite amount of possible encounters in PvP lol.

And that's why I think the time between questions, and then time to formulate in a lengthier version would help more.

There will be many different ways, with many different playstyles, based off of different gear that will be possible. In those cases, just getting the new players used to seeing all the different possibilities and questions asked will help training them to do the same. So when they are in game, they will be thinking of the questions they've seen, or even coming up with their own.

Hopefully the broad spectrum possible will prevent it from becoming a "this is right and that is wrong" kind of thing. When you're against opponents who aren't too good, sometimes doing the right thing can be wrong (like setting up a stun combo only to find out they are one shots with high refined weapon).

Shorter ones will hopefully get new BMs to look a little more in-depth into BM skills than they may have done in the past. It can also highlight a weakness that can be used against a BM for them to watch out for.

As an example of a quick one, this would be the kind of format I was thinking (though really whoever is posting can change as they wish)

"What use could a cleric have for a Tangling Mire on a genie be against a BM."

Since it's a quick one, it doesn't really need a time limit. Then whoever wants to can post reasons they can think of, situations based off of sage or demon BM as the target, however in-depth they wish to get with it. Some can post ways they would use it as a cleric to control what a BM would do. The main point would be making the thought process as transparent to a new player, so they can start thinking along similar lines in their own play, instead of asking a specific question each time.

The longer ones would likely be able to draw alot from the weekend events (TW/NW) to get various ideas for. The only main difference would be the initial post would be longer most likely, and having a separate round of questions to be asked about the example. Then after the first time limit for questions is up, OP would flesh out the example in a way that covers as many of the questions as they can.

Then everyone has a chance to give as many possible reactions as they are interested enough to do, and explain why they did that. Can be short or lengthy as they want. A bit of synopsis on their gear would likely help in showing why they chose the way they did, because having a different gear set could make it easier or harder to emulate.

Either way the main thing is trying to train people to think in a more PvP mindset, and hopefully learn faster than getting thrown in the deep end at end game.

DragoAhmad - Archosaur · February 2013

Meh, all new BMs I find on my server tend to know almost nothing.. They just rush in and get killed, no tactics, no marrows, nothing. I believe it'll be great for other experienced BMs like Dan, Saku, Maelael, and many others to help noob BMs (like myself) with armor choices, skill combos, and uses, and special roles of BMs. It sounds great, and I'd really like to see it happen.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · February 2013

DragoAhmad - Archosaur wrote: »

Meh, all new BMs I find on my server tend to know almost nothing.. They just rush in and get killed, no tactics, no marrows, nothing. I believe it'll be great for other experienced BMs like Dan, Saku, Maelael, and many others to help noob BMs (like myself) with armor choices, skill combos, and uses, and special roles of BMs. It sounds great, and I'd really like to see it happen.

I've said many times, no forum post can replace a mentor in game.

Try and reach out to BMs who aren't (bleep)s on your server and see if they are willing to setup a training time.

I was a complete and utter TW/PK noob (kinda still am) a bit over a year ago. People like Sanosukelee, Kugav, Odieux, and Xesekili took me under their wing - gave me ideas, took me out in PK mode, and grouped with me in TW. I watched a lot of videos. I taked with others - Ehmi, Steopie, Aesthor, and Scrubby about tactics and whens and whys. I applied them, practiced them live, and got feedback from all of those people.

Each one had a different opinion on style and purpose. I've learned all of them, and attempted to incorporate what I like/prefer into my style that fits my attitude and gear. Experience, trial, and feedback on your performance is very important and helps the most.

Don't get me wrong I'm all about talking about tactics I use and others I've seen effective, but nothing beats an in game mentor or 7. You want to diversify: 2 of those BMs are Sage, 1 of them was a fist/axe (would kill with fists but CC with axes), one is an Archer and one is a Wizard with a long history of working with BMs and gave valuable feedback on what they need from a BM to effectively murder people.

Jaabg - Sanctuary · February 2013

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I a complete and utter TW/PK noob

His words, not mine b:dirty.

"What use could a cleric have for a Tangling Mire on a genie be against a BM."

That would require a str genei to be effective, and use phy skills on cleric, and hope that the bm is in mag marrow. That still being said, it hasn't proven effective against me, i still have about 8~10k pdef in phy marrow, non marrow is 12k for me. You might want to introduce veno skill to break pdef and set it to 0 for this to be effective.

Very few people use mire or impact in nw, tw. I only use it on sturdy casters that are resisting my claws.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · March 2013

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

"What use could a cleric have for a Tangling Mire on a genie be against a BM."

From a PvE point of view I have had TM on my cleric's genie just to help with aoeing/bosses while I sit in bb. If a cleric doesn't have a specific pvp genie it may be there for that reason.

Tangling Mire also has a slow effect which you can use alternately with sleep and freeze to keep your distance when kiting. Since TM only requires 30-48 energy its a great skill to combo with HP to kite away. The cleric should make sure to move off angle when using it so the BM can't leap straight to them.

Tangling Mire also will stack with Dimensional Seal for a few reasons. Dimensional Seal is double edged as it debuffs the cleric as well, but when you combined with the slow effect of TM the cleric can stay out of range. And as I said, TM (lets say 45% pdef reduction) will stack with Dimensionals 40% for 85% total reduction.

Lastly, TM has an aoe effect of 15m. Great for popping sins out of stealth.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · March 2013

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I've said many times, no forum post can replace a mentor in game.

Try and reach out to BMs who aren't (bleep)s on your server and see if they are willing to setup a training time.

I was a complete and utter TW/PK noob (kinda still am) a bit over a year ago. People like Sanosukelee, Kugav, Odieux, and Xesekili took me under their wing - gave me ideas, took me out in PK mode, and grouped with me in TW. I watched a lot of videos. I taked with others - Ehmi, Steopie, Aesthor, and Scrubby about tactics and whens and whys. I applied them, practiced them live, and got feedback from all of those people.

Each one had a different opinion on style and purpose. I've learned all of them, and attempted to incorporate what I like/prefer into my style that fits my attitude and gear. Experience, trial, and feedback on your performance is very important and helps the most.

Don't get me wrong I'm all about talking about tactics I use and others I've seen effective, but nothing beats an in game mentor or 7. You want to diversify: 2 of those BMs are Sage, 1 of them was a fist/axe (would kill with fists but CC with axes), one is an Archer and one is a Wizard with a long history of working with BMs and gave valuable feedback on what they need from a BM to effectively murder people.

The closest thing many of the older "smart bm's" had to a mentor was vit axe bm's running around as a "what not to do" example. The 2 other bm's I know on sanc that still play from that time have drastically different playstyles and ideal gear sets. Equally effective but drastically different. In game mentoring tends to create a mass of evade ornie zombies who are so illiterate they cant even read short clear guides or simply say "but my "mentor" told me their pro"

If someone asks me for help or advise in game and actually wants to learn I'm all smiles and kittens (No really I love helping people who genuinely want to learn) but the rest are all so self absorbed or pumped full of bad information that it would take a brillo pad a skull saw and some bleach to remove it from their minds.

Isnt this the bm that made itself look like a complete failure trying to troll the first few pages of the FAQ?

Maelael - Heavens Tear · March 2013

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

The closest thing many of the older "smart bm's" had to a mentor was vit axe bm's running around as a "what not to do" example. The 2 other bm's I know on sanc that still play from that time have drastically different playstyles and ideal gear sets. Equally effective but drastically different. In game mentoring tends to create a mass of evade ornie zombies who are so illiterate they cant even read short clear guides or simply say "but my "mentor" told me their pro"

If someone asks me for help or advise in game and actually wants to learn I'm all smiles and kittens (No really I love helping people who genuinely want to learn) but the rest are all so self absorbed or pumped full of bad information that it would take a brillo pad a skull saw and some bleach to remove it from their minds.

In the end it takes some brainpower. You can't directly copy someone, you want to learn from what they do and have to say, and fit it into your style. The drastically different styles - provided they work - are worthy to learn both most likely and take what you want outta each.

Now keep in mind you gotta know that they aren't ****, see them fight and be effective and utilize more than their gear to push through. I still see "top level" BMs on my server that are high in the ranking be pitiful in TW/NW. Sure they've got marrow up, but they're utilizing Highland Cleave over Fissure in group situations, and utilizing either of those skills for single target situations...etc.

I guess a base level of tactics should be explored first so you know good from bad, but most server forums have a "Who is the best of X class...".

Watching good PK during the scant times it happens and its decently balanced is also a good indication. Yet at the same time its not because my ****-pk butt will still be out there as the last to die a lot of the time, and rarely due to me being any good at killing people.

I know people who Oceans edge early, use it right after stun, don't stun and only oceans edge, oceans edge when everything is in CD, and finally don't use it at all. Depending on style and situation all are viable. It's stuff like that that you have to see the situation and ask why they went for that, that I think matters.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Isnt this the bm that made itself look like a complete failure trying to troll the first few pages of the FAQ?

Key word chief: Troll. Pie is a hardcore troll, but actually knows what he's doin and explains it very well. Understand thats the guy that lead Enrage's TWs. And tbh I don't know what he said, I don't really remember much past the initial post.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · March 2013

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

In the end it takes some brainpower. You can't directly copy someone, you want to learn from what they do and have to say, and fit it into your style. The drastically different styles - provided they work - are worthy to learn both most likely and take what you want outta each.

Now keep in mind you gotta know that they aren't ****, see them fight and be effective and utilize more than their gear to push through. I still see "top level" BMs on my server that are high in the ranking be pitiful in TW/NW. Sure they've got marrow up, but they're utilizing Highland Cleave over Fissure in group situations, and utilizing either of those skills for single target situations...etc.

I guess a base level of tactics should be explored first so you know good from bad, but most server forums have a "Who is the best of X class...".

Watching good PK during the scant times it happens and its decently balanced is also a good indication. Yet at the same time its not because my ****-pk butt will still be out there as the last to die a lot of the time, and rarely due to me being any good at killing people.

I know people who Oceans edge early, use it right after stun, don't stun and only oceans edge, oceans edge when everything is in CD, and finally don't use it at all. Depending on style and situation all are viable. It's stuff like that that you have to see the situation and ask why they went for that, that I think matters.

Well thats an individual thing and cycles back to my post, anyone capable of realizing that r999 pkers are not all "pro" who are also able to think through their combo's chi management and defensive skill geni and apoc usage will figure it out on their own in time and will more than likely grow sick of the rampant "I r derp son" bm's and come to the forum anyways

Key word chief: Troll. Pie is a hardcore troll, but actually knows what he's doin and explains it very well. Understand thats the guy that lead Enrage's TWs. And tbh I don't know what he said, I don't really remember much past the initial post.

Just reread it, yaa he got to the point where even TheDan was saying "No U" was amusign as hell though.

Back in my 60's I dint use axes because well...there was no need. i also enjoyed duelign and pking vs a small group of people. Now this was derp pvp archers would pop wings and lol tank axe bm's faces. Fist bm with -.15 int and a lot of mag res just gutted em. So they pulled up archer vids and startign kitign well. In response I got axes at 70 for aoe and started doing full stunlocks. They got antistun geni's and I got a slow/OI/path/TE setup with a survival skill or 2 tacked on. Same for most other classes. An intelligent group of people will always reach endpoint metagame if they just play vs each other. And my little group absolutely dominated other people all the way to 100 who still used "old" tactics (i still have most of em on FL even after multiple quits on all of our parts) and caused many of them to totaly revise their playstyle. Now this is not the only group of people like this and they still pop up on my server even now. I find fostering these little pvp micro metagames is a good way to improve a lot of folks rapidly. (on that note if your still learning wizzie Dan I'd say talk to ScorchedSky he's probably my fav wizzie on server skill wise though probably not the "best" and beat me more often with rank 8 than most r9 mages could manage plus if I remember correctly he's in regi)

In my little group I learned stunlocking, resource conservation, when to burst DD, and commonly used patterns of all classes along with how to counter them and to break new patterns as they popped up along with pretty much every aspect of pwi's pvp system.

My point is simply people who want to learn, inovate, or simply become good at this game will do so regardless of our efforts, and I dont feel like helping derps in any way but kicking their ***** till they learn.

I advocate helping people who want to learn to the highest extent. All we're doing is speeding things up though in that respect they'd get there anyways. You cant cure stupid though.

Son of an everything now I'm all nostalgic

DragoAhmad - Archosaur · March 2013

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I've said many times, no forum post can replace a mentor in game.

Try and reach out to BMs who aren't (bleep)s on your server and see if they are willing to setup a training time.

I was a complete and utter TW/PK noob (kinda still am) a bit over a year ago. People like Sanosukelee, Kugav, Odieux, and Xesekili took me under their wing - gave me ideas, took me out in PK mode, and grouped with me in TW. I watched a lot of videos. I taked with others - Ehmi, Steopie, Aesthor, and Scrubby about tactics and whens and whys. I applied them, practiced them live, and got feedback from all of those people.

Each one had a different opinion on style and purpose. I've learned all of them, and attempted to incorporate what I like/prefer into my style that fits my attitude and gear. Experience, trial, and feedback on your performance is very important and helps the most.

Don't get me wrong I'm all about talking about tactics I use and others I've seen effective, but nothing beats an in game mentor or 7. You want to diversify: 2 of those BMs are Sage, 1 of them was a fist/axe (would kill with fists but CC with axes), one is an Archer and one is a Wizard with a long history of working with BMs and gave valuable feedback on what they need from a BM to effectively murder people.

I know Maelael, but there's practical AND written work. Surely in-game mentors is the best way to learn, but sometimes one can resort to BM Forums for tactics and stuff, aaaand use your imagination. xD I made my way and learned some stuff in PK/PvP stuff (NW, TW, Tournament, etc.) but I still know I have a lot to learn. I initially learned my first steps in PvP from the forums, by your posts, as well as others I mentioned before. As I said, help-through-forum isn't that bad after all. b:pleased

Maelael - Heavens Tear · March 2013

DragoAhmad - Archosaur wrote: »

I know Maelael, but there's practical AND written work. Surely in-game mentors is the best way to learn, but sometimes one can resort to BM Forums for tactics and stuff, aaaand use your imagination. xD I made my way and learned some stuff in PK/PvP stuff (NW, TW, Tournament, etc.) but I still know I have a lot to learn. I initially learned my first steps in PvP from the forums, by your posts, as well as others I mentioned before. As I said, help-through-forum isn't that bad after all. b:pleased

I think the question would be, where to start and what scenarios to discuss.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · March 2013

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think the question would be, where to start and what scenarios to discuss.

Well here's a easy senario

your at mele range on an r999 archer who just popped 3 spark + antistun on the ground in a 1v1 situation

you both started with full chi geni energy apoth and are self buffed

discuss the pro's and cons of each available path to survival based on stats given from the 5 aps HA set full R99 set or your personal pet build of choice or all of em if you've got a work fetish. (link builds and a vanilla r999 archer from your server)

Its an extreme situation but it was a farily common one when I pvped and will result in instant death a heavy advantage for you or an even situation. the goal is to steer this scenario to the most advantageous setup for yourself to get the kill.

State the possible routes you could take and possible archer reactions for 1-2 steps and where they lead in the fight

For a former tabletop player this kind of thing is fun, most folks aint got the attention span for it.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · March 2013

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well here's a easy senario

your at mele range on an r999 archer who just popped 3 spark + antistun on the ground in a 1v1 situation

you both started with full chi geni energy apoth and are self buffed

I'm not sure I'd encounter this scenario vs a good archer TBH. I'd also need more info - is the antistun pot related or from elven alacrity?

Joshcja - Sanctuary · March 2013

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd encounter this scenario vs a good archer TBH. I'd also need more info - is the antistun pot related or from elven alacrity?

wings- 59 antistun skill

and its a pretty legit tactic to force a fight to progress in a predictable way vs mid skill bm's or flat out kill bad ones

Maelael - Heavens Tear · March 2013

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

wings- 59 antistun skill

and its a pretty legit tactic to force a fight to progress in a predictable way vs mid skill bm's or flat out kill bad ones

Smack and play evade I think. I can't remember if that blocks Blade Hurl, but I'd prolly try that. I'd also use reel in to interrupt and **** with them. Idea is to just ride it out, get them to pot and waste their genie, then go for the stunlock kill.

So I'd prolly wait it out a bit and tank/semi kite it, maybe hit Will and build some chi back and just Blade Tornado them down, or stun lock them once it wore off. IG may happen, depends how hard they were hitting me.

Archers can keep up with leaps and such, as long as you keep on your light defenses (dont waste too much chi or pots/genie) you can tank it unless they really really outgear you.

Marrow is always a debate for me with Archers. I've had decent results in said 1v1s with phys marrow up and just using mdef charms, but thats mostly vs kinda nubby archers. Usually I want the mag marrow up esp vs sage. At the same rate, its almost safer to just no-marrow if theres multiple archers.

In the end if I was unable to stun lock and get really close to killing them via axe spam, I'd prolly just go move to another target if nobody else showed up.

I actually ran into a similar situation. I locked the Archer and the Psy next to me was like, I dunno wtf they were doing - they were a Radiance member and they tend to get the downs. They couldn't kill the damn archer. I just moved on.

Another situation is I've had a R9rr Archer who has good talent pretty much lock me for about 3 minutes. Couldn't kill me (I was using defenses, mag marrow, antistuns) but he kept up with me leaps and constantly doing his best to CC.

If I really, really had to kill the archer, I'd definitely stall with my R8r Def level weapon till I ran them outta chi/pot/genie. Mag marrow, leaps, runs - but again it depends if they fall for it. Prolly taunt with blade hurls, smacks, occasional stuns to see if I can get them impatient. Also make use of Mo Zun's as people tend to forget that exists.

This is a good discussion, because with their evasion rate and our ability to tank it's typically an even match even when were purged. I think in the end I'd just tank/CC them till help arrived if they are on Sharpie level Archer tankability (guy has full +12 Vit stone R9rr). Some archers are very glass cannony and I can just 1-3 zerk, crit, or zerkcrit them down. TBH I don't have a huge amount of answers for archers besides survive them and wait till a DD shows up.

Sylvae - Sanctuary · March 2013

I could see an archer doing that if their apoths are on cooldown and their Awaken is ready to use. They could also be using it to bridge a gap in healing with charm and pots on CD as well, the damage could also just be an added benefit. Also triple spark usually makes people either GTFO, or resort to CCs to prevent getting piffed. And CCs are usually not as high in damage, meaning it acts as a damage mitigation as well. It also depends on if they have a psi or something nearby on their team chewing opposition up. So the spark might be just to get the kills before another of their own nation swipes it.

For me, I have lowbiesh gear and 7K health without the NW barb buff given to me. And I've run into the same situation a good amount of times as well, though not sure about the anti-stun since they were silenceable. Assuming this is occurring while I am in fisting range, my first thing on seeing the triple spark would be to use Leap Back, followed by turning and using Leap Forward. The Forward is used 2nd due to its chance to prevent an immobilize effect, and when the archer comes out of spark would be around that time. Then use Cloudsprint while running away and jumping for the extra distance while calling my flyer. I use the keys for all that, while having my mouse hovering over the AD button if something gets caught up.

Once in the air, I use accelerate and move upwards and away at the same time until I reach max height. I keep a constant eye on the archer, usually they follow on the ground hoping to shoot me down, rarely they'll pull wings and follow into the air. Many times they lose interest and start attacking someone else. Then, or when the trip spark is nearing its end, is when I turn and start angling for a drop.

Best way for an accurate drop at distance I've found, is flying forward and up, while having the camera forward and down. Best if you're not already at max height. This allows me to land within claw distance almost every time, only sometimes being a bit farther if they turn a different way at the last instant.

Unfortunately to ensure proper locking, it's almost mandatory to use OI if against a good archer. So for most of them, you can wait for the game to take its 3 seconds to realize you're on the ground and Roar. If it is a competent archer, you have to OI due to skill lag from landing. After that it's stunlock and combo away.

If I had all the skills, there is also more that can be done. Tossing in a Blade Hurl between leaps, using Reel In to land further away and shift them to my position, etc. But that's the method I've used to kill them with the gear and skills I've got on my BM.

Also pretty cheap with the chi, so I'd use the first stun to gauge damage before deciding what if any amps and debuffs to use. Run out of chi way too dang much, unless I'm on a barb or something tanky.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · March 2013

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Smack and play evade I think. I can't remember if that blocks Blade Hurl, but I'd prolly try that. I'd also use reel in to interrupt and **** with them. Idea is to just ride it out, get them to pot and waste their genie, then go for the stunlock kill.

It dosent block hurl

So I'd prolly wait it out a bit and tank/semi kite it, maybe hit Will and build some chi back and just Blade Tornado them down, or stun lock them once it wore off. IG may happen, depends how hard they were hitting me.

they can leap out of BT and your burning will here opening you to aim low combo's

Archers can keep up with leaps and such, as long as you keep on your light defenses (dont waste too much chi or pots/genie) you can tank it unless they really really outgear you.

They're 3 sparked your looking at 10k+ crits here not to mention they can still just autoattack for even mroe damage once you leave mele

Marrow is always a debate for me with Archers. I've had decent results in said 1v1s with phys marrow up and just using mdef charms, but thats mostly vs kinda nubby archers. Usually I want the mag marrow up esp vs sage. At the same rate, its almost safer to just no-marrow if theres multiple archers.

I prefer mag marrow+demon bell myself in a 1v1 or mag + phys charm untill I can get to mele

In the end if I was unable to stun lock and get really close to killing them via axe spam, I'd prolly just go move to another target if nobody else showed up.

its a 1v1

I actually ran into a similar situation. I locked the Archer and the Psy next to me was like, I dunno wtf they were doing - they were a Radiance member and they tend to get the downs. They couldn't kill the damn archer. I just moved on.

Another situation is I've had a R9rr Archer who has good talent pretty much lock me for about 3 minutes. Couldn't kill me (I was using defenses, mag marrow, antistuns) but he kept up with me leaps and constantly doing his best to CC.

Ya they really need to commit or force resource burn to kill a top geared bm

If I really, really had to kill the archer, I'd definitely stall with my R8r Def level weapon till I ran them outta chi/pot/genie. Mag marrow, leaps, runs - but again it depends if they fall for it. Prolly taunt with blade hurls, smacks, occasional stuns to see if I can get them impatient. Also make use of Mo Zun's as people tend to forget that exists.

This is a good discussion, because with their evasion rate and our ability to tank it's typically an even match even when were purged. I think in the end I'd just tank/CC them till help arrived if they are on Sharpie level Archer tankability (guy has full +12 Vit stone R9rr). Some archers are very glass cannony and I can just 1-3 zerk, crit, or zerkcrit them down. TBH I don't have a huge amount of answers for archers besides survive them and wait till a DD shows up.

I would just chi burn with geni in the gap in invul after wings to totally suppress the tactic as well as leaps+aim low in a 1v1 situation possibly forcing an apoc if they REALLY want to go balls deep and definitely forcing rise since they'd be well under a spark. if they go all in and rise+spark I'd just holy path+sprint/bhodi out of range entirely since idgaf anymore, their ability to hold me down and kill me is almost non existent since I can now suppress even leaps to a minimum with taunt. I'm using a 5.0 full HA mostly g 16/r999 build for my endgame (when I get there) so if they CE to keep chi up they put simply they die.

with a more conventional geni holy pathing away while they spark can totally negate the tactic unless they also burn path+galvanic in that case you can just hurl and leap in then tank the last 2 or 3 seconds of spark

if they apoc immune on the reactionary tactic your almost forced to burn an apoc as well or they win and this again opens you to purge kills. Though this does leave you at mele they can simply leap away and still have 2.5 sparks at the least and a full geni.

1v1 imo is all about closing off as many options as possible for your opponent while multiplayer pvp is all about keeping as many options open for yourself as possible.

I brought this up because Wings>spark is one of the simplest ways to make a BM missplay HORRIBLY.

I'd give ya a 65/100 mostly because you totally missed the words 1v1 situation in my post

Joshcja - Sanctuary · March 2013

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

I could see an archer doing that if their apoths are on cooldown and their Awaken is ready to use. They could also be using it to bridge a gap in healing with charm and pots on CD as well, the damage could also just be an added benefit. Also triple spark usually makes people either GTFO, or resort to CCs to prevent getting piffed. And CCs are usually not as high in damage, meaning it acts as a damage mitigation as well. It also depends on if they have a psi or something nearby on their team chewing opposition up. So the spark might be just to get the kills before another of their own nation swipes it.

For me, I have lowbiesh gear and 7K health without the NW barb buff given to me. And I've run into the same situation a good amount of times as well, though not sure about the anti-stun since they were silenceable. Assuming this is occurring while I am in fisting range, my first thing on seeing the triple spark would be to use Leap Back, followed by turning and using Leap Forward. The Forward is used 2nd due to its chance to prevent an immobilize effect, and when the archer comes out of spark would be around that time. Then use Cloudsprint while running away and jumping for the extra distance while calling my flyer. I use the keys for all that, while having my mouse hovering over the AD button if something gets caught up.

Once in the air, I use accelerate and move upwards and away at the same time until I reach max height. I keep a constant eye on the archer, usually they follow on the ground hoping to shoot me down, rarely they'll pull wings and follow into the air. Many times they lose interest and start attacking someone else. Then, or when the trip spark is nearing its end, is when I turn and start angling for a drop.

Best way for an accurate drop at distance I've found, is flying forward and up, while having the camera forward and down. Best if you're not already at max height. This allows me to land within claw distance almost every time, only sometimes being a bit farther if they turn a different way at the last instant.

Unfortunately to ensure proper locking, it's almost mandatory to use OI if against a good archer. So for most of them, you can wait for the game to take its 3 seconds to realize you're on the ground and Roar. If it is a competent archer, you have to OI due to skill lag from landing. After that it's stunlock and combo away.

If I had all the skills, there is also more that can be done. Tossing in a Blade Hurl between leaps, using Reel In to land further away and shift them to my position, etc. But that's the method I've used to kill them with the gear and skills I've got on my BM.

Also pretty cheap with the chi, so I'd use the first stun to gauge damage before deciding what if any amps and debuffs to use. Run out of chi way too dang much, unless I'm on a barb or something tanky.

I actually used this tactic a LOT against archers and it got me kills on R9 archers with +7 tt99. I've started preferring chi burn on targets I can tank a few hits from and was assuming my endgame set in the reply I gave.

Pretty sure I literally cannot kill r999 atm short of a massive overcommit or purge pole proc (if buffed).

the 65% tidal on leap forward makes me want to say we can get away w/o OI if they have a tendency to stun/freeze/seal at mele rather than going straight for wing leap.

The problem here is some mix of galvanic charge and holy path catching ya before you get away to flyer range due to the uuuhg slowness that leaps can have in a ping spike

easily the safest way to play it though

Sylvae - Sanctuary · March 2013

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

the 65% tidal on leap forward makes me want to say we can get away w/o OI if they have a tendency to stun/freeze/seal at mele rather than goign straight for wing leap.

I only OI when coming back after their spark/stun immunity is over. Every class has a lag from landing that prevents all channeling for about 2-3 seconds. Sometimes it is a bit less, it seems to change a bit depending. And a good archer could leap sideways and ruin a perfectly good ambush. That is where the OI would come in. When I land next to casters it's pretty safe to just go for Roar, since most have pretty bad initial reactions towards a BM already in melee range. (clerics either IB or Plume Shell, venos like to Lucky Scarab, etc.)

Joshcja - Sanctuary · March 2013

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

I only OI when coming back after their spark/stun immunity is over. Every class has a lag from landing that prevents all channeling for about 2-3 seconds. Sometimes it is a bit less, it seems to change a bit depending. And a good archer could leap sideways and ruin a perfectly good ambush. That is where the OI would come in. When I land next to casters it's pretty safe to just go for Roar, since most have pretty bad initial reactions towards a BM already in melee range. (clerics either IB or Plume Shell, venos like to Lucky Scarab, etc.)

Mine ranges from .5 seconds to bloody 4 in high lag

But ya thats why I say its viable only when they have a tendency to disable then leap

Leaps also seems to be forcing us to open with drake bash/blade/roar on bhodi run ins over roar unless their chi is totally gone slowing down our kill combos considerably

Sylvae - Sanctuary · March 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

From a PvE point of view I have had TM on my cleric's genie just to help with aoeing/bosses while I sit in bb. If a cleric doesn't have a specific pvp genie it may be there for that reason.

Tangling Mire also has a slow effect which you can use alternately with sleep and freeze to keep your distance when kiting. Since TM only requires 30-48 energy its a great skill to combo with HP to kite away. The cleric should make sure to move off angle when using it so the BM can't leap straight to them.

Tangling Mire also will stack with Dimensional Seal for a few reasons. Dimensional Seal is double edged as it debuffs the cleric as well, but when you combined with the slow effect of TM the cleric can stay out of range. And as I said, TM (lets say 45% pdef reduction) will stack with Dimensionals 40% for 85% total reduction.

Lastly, TM has an aoe effect of 15m. Great for popping sins out of stealth.

Might as well answer this one, since people did post for the example.

The main reason behind it was for stacking against a Mag Marrowing BM. Against a demon BM a reasonable total of -175% phys def can be achieved, -165% against a sage BM with only lvl 6. Self-buffed only a demon BM would be down to 0% phys def, sage would be at 25%. With cleric buff it bumps them up to 60 and 85% respectively.

But I hate only using something for one reason, and especially reactively only. So a pre-emptive TE can also be beneficial. At that point you are forcing the BM to think whether using a Marrow is even worth the risk. That means you can use a phys def debuff to in essence amp your magical damage by preventing them from using a marrow. And should they pop a marrow, just focus debuffs in that direction. May even force them to juggle over to a phys def marrow and then wipe them out. Depending on buffs and gear.

Also in mass pvp, having a non-str genie can make TE useful as a false ambush. Since few clerics have TE, and even fewer (likely almost none) use it in PvP, throwing that off will have people looking around for where the attack is coming from. This could prevent them from chasing after you, allowing for an escape. It can also help in assisting your side killing off a target, or setting up for Razor on the flag position. So pretty much for BMs they need to watch their marrows and keep cognizant of the buffs they have.

Just a couple of the thoughts I had on its use.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · March 2013

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

Might as well answer this one, since people did post for the example.

The main reason behind it was for stacking against a Mag Marrowing BM. Against a demon BM a reasonable total of -175% phys def can be achieved, -165% against a sage BM with only lvl 6. Self-buffed only a demon BM would be down to 0% phys def, sage would be at 25%. With cleric buff it bumps them up to 60 and 85% respectively.

But I hate only using something for one reason, and especially reactively only. So a pre-emptive TE can also be beneficial. At that point you are forcing the BM to think whether using a Marrow is even worth the risk. That means you can use a phys def debuff to in essence amp your magical damage by preventing them from using a marrow. And should they pop a marrow, just focus debuffs in that direction. May even force them to juggle over to a phys def marrow and then wipe them out. Depending on buffs and gear.

Also in mass pvp, having a non-str genie can make TE useful as a false ambush. Since few clerics have TE, and even fewer (likely almost none) use it in PvP, throwing that off will have people looking around for where the attack is coming from. This could prevent them from chasing after you, allowing for an escape. It can also help in assisting your side killing off a target, or setting up for Razor on the flag position. So pretty much for BMs they need to watch their marrows and keep cognizant of the buffs they have.

Just a couple of the thoughts I had on its use.

Seems sneaky however 3 things occur to me

Str build geni's on casters are just not as good as dex build geni's even with the OPness of purify

TM seems like it could be replaced by a better skill for purely pvp purposes

hitting w/o metal mastery vs just waiting off the marrow in sleep seems weaker by comparison

would be hilarious if you made it work though

Maelael - Heavens Tear · March 2013

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Stuff

Okay few things:

"they can leap out of BT and your burning will here opening you to aim low combo's"

They do leap out of BT, but they keep moving if you chase them. There are ways to stun into BT and land two reliable hits if you can. Depends on their HP and build.

Will is burned so you don't get stun/sealed trying to escape.

"They're 3 sparked your looking at 10k+ crits here not to mention they can still just autoattack for even mroe damage once you leave mele"

I haven't been 10k'ed by an archer in a long time, but the idea is to get out - and 1 10k aint gonna worry me.

"I prefer mag marrow+demon bell myself in a 1v1 or mag + phys charm untill I can get to mele"

Its funny you say this, because I watch people bell for the pdef bonus and get stun/seal ***** all the time during it. I'll only do that when Im sure they are distracted or Im stun immune.

"blah blah blah 1v1 blah blah blah"

Open PK 1v1s are neat and all, but don't apply to the majority of what people do. TW, NW is the bigger deals PvP wise, not to mention group PK. You have to consider your other options and not tunnel vision yourself into killing one opponent. It's stupid and a waste.

Towards your tactics response...can you rewrite that? It makes no sense, and either Im missing something, you're missing something, or I just can't follow your writing style there.

Okay Syl, heres where a good Archer would destroy your ideas:

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

For me, I have lowbiesh gear and 7K health without the NW barb buff given to me. And I've run into the same situation a good amount of times as well, though not sure about the anti-stun since they were silenceable. Assuming this is occurring while I am in fisting range, my first thing on seeing the triple spark would be to use Leap Back, followed by turning and using Leap Forward. (The archer will leap follow) The Forward is used 2nd due to its chance to prevent an immobilize effect, and when the archer comes out of spark would be around that time. Then use Cloudsprint (You're stunned or sealed here) while running away and jumping for the extra distance while calling my flyer. (You're stunned or sealed here) I use the keys for all that, while having my mouse hovering over the AD button if something gets caught up. (You've just emptied your genie removing the ability to HP or Fortify)

(You're stunned or sealed here) Once in the air, I use accelerate and move upwards and away at the same time until I reach max height. I keep a constant eye on the archer(Who is stunning, sealing, and DDing you) , usually they follow on the ground hoping to shoot me down, rarely they'll pull wings and follow into the air.(You're fighting some really crappy archers then) Many times they lose interest and start attacking someone else. Then, or when the trip spark is nearing its end, is when I turn and start angling for a drop.(You're stunned or sealed here in the air and killed)

Gonna stop here cause you're dead. Remember you're starting in melee range, and you don't have the HP or defenses most likely to really tank the guy. You're not antistunning, which is a huge problem given they can stop you in the middle of all of that.

If you really, really feel you must use this tactic, and somehow you get away with this tactic and get in the air, I'd like you to consider from the air: Reel in, Reckless Rush, Roar, (do some attacks), Drake Bash, (Continue attacks and hope to kill them)

Sylvae - Sanctuary · March 2013

It hovers over the key, doesn't press it. It's there for if I need it from getting caught, though usually I make it out of range without issue. Also, not sure if it's one of the lost common known things, but leaping increases the distance more than simply running away, due to the game counting the vertical axis as part of the over-all distance. With Cloud Sprint alone it's usually enough, which is why I usually double jump when getting out of range no matter which method is used.

Theoretically the archer can do all that, it's just not what's happens in the matches I've played. There are one or two in a whole NW who will do that, but there isn't a need to plan around them since they can kill me anyways and I can't kill them. Anti-stun is really only used against the good opponents, and most lose track of what's going on in air when they focus on killing the opponents on the ground. Technically all the casters could do the same thing, they just don't think of it or react properly enough to warrant the chi waste unless it's required.

Maelael - Heavens Tear · March 2013

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

It hovers over the key, doesn't press it. It's there for if I need it from getting caught, though usually I make it out of range without issue. Also, not sure if it's one of the lost common known things, but leaping increases the distance more than simply running away, due to the game counting the vertical axis as part of the over-all distance. With Cloud Sprint alone it's usually enough, which is why I usually double jump when getting out of range no matter which method is used.

Issue is, they always chase when they three spark and see you leave. And the first thing they're gonna do is immobilize you in some way. Hell even without the three spark they're gonna chase and stop you. You have to prep or rely on Will or another immune.

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

Theoretically the archer can do all that, it's just not what's happens in the matches I've played. There are one or two in a whole NW who will do that, but there isn't a need to plan around them since they can kill me anyways and I can't kill them. Anti-stun is really only used against the good opponents, and most lose track of what's going on in air when they focus on killing the opponents on the ground. Technically all the casters could do the same thing, they just don't think of it or react properly enough to warrant the chi waste unless it's required.

Yea you're really fighting some crappy archers tbh. If they're that bad you should just stay in melee, hold for a charm tick, then IG, wait their their stuff wears off, stun lock and gank them. Cause wow...if they seriously fall for your outlined tactic thats horrible. The Noob archers on HT will at least try and stun/seal/immob me as much as possible even if they know its futile to try and kill me even purged.

Possible idea for helping new BMs

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