Fist/Axe BM endgame gear?

augustfinknottle wrote: »

Don't get the G13 nirvy claws unless you're planning on G15 or G16. They're a complete waste when compared to Deicides. You'll need 130mil worth of raptures for an increase so slight in your damage that you will barely notice.

Even the TT100 fists are much better than G13 claws, and they always come with 2 sockets for about the same price (they are way more expensive to upgrade to G15 and G16, though, so not really usefull when you plan on getting those).

The pants will give you both an increase in defense and attack, so they're way better than upgrading claws. Actually, a much higher increase in attack than the G13 claws could ever give you (going from 4 to 5 aps you'll deal 25% more damage per second). Also, they're cheaper.

I had a huge post with math and links to the 8 other threads, but the system ate it. I'll just summate:

1. Use the search function. There is a ton of posts on DPS and thoughts on end game fists/claws with and without huge math and pwcalcs.

2. This poster is not giving fully valid advice.

3. Deicides are fine if you want to farm for G16s with them. Recommended is +7-+8 or better, and you may still be relegated to the slower less refined squads.

4. G13s are better than Deicides. They have about 100 more base damage at +10-+12, which adds up to 2500 damage sparked per second, which over time adds up greatly in terms of boss dying time and aggro.

5. SDs are **** except in Nirvana. Soul infect outside of Nirvana is huge. SDs cost more money to upgrade to G16s, and are bound. Don't do this to yourself unless the only place you plan to play in is Nirvana.

6. If you go the high refined (10-12) G13 route, get tradeable G13s (Regicides). This way you can sell them when you've farmed enough for N16s.

7. Saku (or one of us) really needs to post all the math behind the claws and fists, and when what out DDs what, and why certain choices are better than others - and throw it in his guide. Its all over the place in a ton of threads.

8. 5 APS first, then refines on weapon you plan to keep for a while, then Demon HF. It's all in terms of coin to effectiveness ratio, and the fact you will be doing more stuff with that 5aps and refines than you will supporting sins in Nirvana for an extra 3 seconds.


Get the pants and hit 5aps. Choose wisely on the gear, as if you do want G16s, you will most likely end up with -0.05 on them. +5 refines on armor is fine, +7 is better, +10 is enough for just about everything.

Decide which fist/claw you want to farm with for a while until you can afford G16s - if that is your end goal (it should be). Refine the hell out of them so you can get in good squads. Do not get SDs unless you plan to only/mostly use your BM in Nirvana.

Get Demon HF.

Get G16s.

DoT out your armor if you +10'ed it.

On DoTs: I charm tick super rarely and its only if Im being lazy - and my build is not the most efficient either. I see a lot of BMs with Vit stones or JoSD in their aps gear and I don't understand it. 12k and 16k buffed APS has been more than enough to tank everywhere I go...which is everywhere content wise in the game in the last month (I'm a busy guy).

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

4. G13s are better than Deicides.

5. SDs are **** except in Nirvana. Soul infect outside of Nirvana is huge.

On 4, true, they are better. My point is that they are not worth getting unless you plan on going G15/G16. They're **** as endgame claws. SD fairly outDD G13s at +10, especially because of the 100% chance of getting 2 sockets (also, 4% crit and +142 max att). At +12 they almost even out, but not quite.

Soul infect is only huge if it procs before you AND your squad take 10% of the boss' hp AND you don't have an archer/sage sin/ sage veno in squad. It's common, but it's not always useful. Granted, it's actually important when you are soloing/duoing TT/FC, and even then when you're not doing it with a sage sin. Not much of a big deal when you're going to instances with a full squad.

Again, let me repeat, cause you probably misunderstood my post, so it might be true for the OP as well:

IF you're going to use G13s as endgame, don't. SDs are better, and deicides are not much worse to be worth the trouble. SDs cost about the same as G13s, and deicides are 130mil cheaper. IF, on the other hand, you're going to upgrade it to G15/G16, then by all means, get it. But only AFTER you're 5aps.

augustfinknottle wrote: »

*snip*

No, I didn't misunderstand you - I've just seen the mathematical and in game difference to say that SDs are ****. I'm sorry if you chose SDs and feel the need to defend it. SDs, or G13s are not end game. They're a stepping stone. SDs are crappy ones at that given they are bound, and cost more to make into G16s.

Utilizing
http://pwcalc.com/1835e37384ba4c0d
http://pwcalc.com/1d3519b4ee806f11

+10:
Item Avg %SDs Ahead
G13 1 Socket 6202.57 1.096493873
G13 2 Socket 6555.13 1.037520232
SD 2 Socket 6801.08

+12:
Item Avg %SDs Ahead
G13 1 Socket 7700.95 1.056222934
G13 2 Socket 8052.945 1.010055328
SD 2 Socket 8133.92

None of which are 10%, one of which is 6.5% which is what someone averaged out it being worth if it procs late.

So lets say that 1%-9.6% is really important for you in Nirvana. But since that G13 weapon is a stepping stone, and you'd be nuts to turn down G16 fists, lets talk cost analysis at +10, and have the G13s be single socket.

Tradeable G13 Nirvana:
30m base mat
150m in Raps.
50m Gem
120m in Orbs (Counting you're lucky enough to +7 **** with event gold like I do)
Total: 350m.

SDs:
150-175m in base mats. (I've pulled this off before at 100, but prices have gone way up)
100m Gem
120m in Orbs (Counting you're lucky enough to +7 **** with event gold like I do)
Total: 370-395m.

50m is Not bad for a 10% upgrade in pure DD - if we don't count soul infect (knocks that down to 3.5%), and the Vit (Added survivability).

But as said above, we wanna reach N16. So lets look at the cost to upgrade (not counting the EoOs and cost to make).

G13 Nirvana:
Earn: 200-250m (Can prolly get more, but the people on my servers are thieves when it comes to refine worth)
10m base mat.
375m Raps.
50m Gem
120m in Orbs
Total: 305-355m.

SDs:
345m Raps.
50m Gem
120m in Orbs
Total: 515m.

For elementary sake, +10 Single Perfect Garnet Shard Deicides are 11% behind the +10 G13 single sockets above, and 21% behind the +10 SDs above.

In best case scenario for the SD price, and worst case scenario on the G13 resell value:

G13 -> G16: 705m
SD -> G16: 885m

Thats 180m you've wasted for 3.5% damage effectiveness outside of nirvana, and 10% damage effectiveness inside nirvana. In full squads for things like BH, I don't care if your weapon heals the boss, it's dying in 30 seconds if people do it right with +10 weapon refines. Where soul infect shines is soloing FF, TT, Duoing those, WGTM, clearing through **** on dailies, etc etc...stuff we do daily or often during non 2x times.

SDs are **** unless your BM is an alt that you only use for Nirvana that you never plan to upgrade from SDs - which is still silly even as a farming alt given how much better DD G16s are and how cheap they are in terms of cost effectiveness. So yea, SDs are ****.

Simply put, SD's and G13s start at the same base damage but G13s refine better. At about +11 they're even dps but G13 also offer vit and soul infect proc. Deicides start with a lower base damage, refine equal to G13s and refine better than SDs. At about +12 they're equal dps but deicides would offer vitality and soul infect.

Since the random of 1 socket or 2, and the inability to quantify things like vitality or soul infect, the normal "best to worst" is considered G13s, SDs, Deicides. I personally put SDs and Deicides about equal, just one costs 110 mil more. SDs are the classic cash shopper's "I had token of best luck, anyways" weapon.

I'd also suggest calcing dps with full gear. 4% crit on SDs is really only a 3% damage gain when you already have 20% crit. But, when sparked, +142 max attack gets multiplied 5 times for an average base dmg boost of 355 damage.

Back to the original question: Pants or weapon. Go pants. Going 4 to 5 aps will increase your damage output and spark gain by 25%, as well as your defense. If you go weapon you will lose refines and have less damage for a period of time.

I always tease that Striking Dragons are for people who can't afford to refine Deicides (the joke being that SDs also more expensive despite not really being any better, as well as untradable and farther from G16s).

Maelael, in your earlier post you did a dps calc for SDs and used only 1 socket. On purpose or not?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Maelael, in your earlier post you did a dps calc for SDs and used only 1 socket. On purpose or not?

My cut and paste was funky, I forgot to change that to say 2.

If we aren't disagreeing August, it's just your wording choices in prior posts in addressing generality and adjectives. Which happens and no biggie.

You might be takin it too personally. I'm a passionate kinda guy, it's gotten me quite far in life, so I tend to not really let go of that in stuff I'm pretty passionate about - which is seeing people (and myself) excel with the BM class. I also like to rant.

Especially given there is so much bad, misleading, or flat out wrong information out there, and how poorly the class is played overall. Stuff like "SDs are much better than G13s" irk the **** outta me, because people will take that and run with it, and it contributes to the idiot levels of our class. Then, I have to explain to yet again another WC squad that BMs can tank SoT/Aba/Metal great, and better than barbs usually. Why? Because they're used to ****** BMs who aren't paying attention to the class overall and just think "5aps, +10, Demon HF, Nirvana hurrdurr". I realize you're better educated than that, it's just I feel we gotta be careful of the hurrdurr factor if we don't state things well, or clearly.

Also no one actually wins anything on the internet. Just have the discussion if you wish to continue, zero hard feelings or nuttin.

On point of the adjectives and generality, I specifically I balked when you said:

"Even the TT100 fists are much better than G13 claws" - Key word is much. Nor did you address the true why, which has a severe consideration for where and with who.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/much - Too strong of an adjective for 10% in a small section of the game.

"SD fairly outDD G13s at +10, especially because of the 100% chance of getting 2 sockets (also, 4% crit and +142 max att). At +12 they almost even out, but not quite." - You now downgraded to fairly...which is still misleading. And why I posted that math.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fairly - Really does not match even 10% in a small section of the game.

If you went by the term "slim", and made the reference to the difference in Nirvana vs Everywhere else effectiveness, then sure - we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

For the record:

Not going G15/G16, but want an upgrade from deicides anyway? -> TT100s are the best choice.
Not going G15/G16 and thinking G13s will be a great upgrade? -> it's not that much better, don't bother getting them, keep your deicides.

This, is utterly misleading or flat out wrong depending on the situation, and I already addressed that in other posts above, along with the reasoning(s) behind it.

augustfinknottle wrote: »

From your last post I start to think that it must be some server thing. In Dreamweaver, medium-tier misinformed BMs stopped getting TT100s at all, going G13s instead as end game choice. It's probably the opposite of what happens in Heaven's Tear.

On my short thingy being utterly misleading, there's a reason why it's a short version. Can't get the full argument in 3 lines. But it stands true for at least 90% of the situations.

I'd give ya max 20% unless its a farming alt. I don't know of anyone who spends 75% of their time in Nirvana throughout a 3 month period (Giving like, 15% of the time attributed to late procs and situations where none of it matters due to a full squad).

HT is uhm....speshul, but not so much over fists/claws, mostly the lack of axe useage. In terms of SDs, you mostly saw them on farming alts for Nirvana. Others went G13s for the soul infect and vit because they go elsewhere than Nirvana and the slim amount of extra damage in limited situations wasn't worth it to them, or they had no idea and saw that SDs were a pain or more expensive to make (they were for a while...). A few do agree with you, even though the math and a reasonable perspective says "No, not really."

I made the long choice of SDs vs G13s and the G13s seemed a no brainer because I realized Im not in Nirvana all the time, and would rather have the soul infect and vit. Plus I had the money to +12 and did the comparison math. The whole reason I spent a month soloing FFs when I upgraded from Decides is because I really wanted to validate my choice, and I did when I saw Bubble boss drop in less than 2 spark rounds, and other bosses die faster for my tastes, bringing my timing down to 30-40 minute clears not pushing ridiculously hard. And in that situation - the SDs would not be better.

Heck, myself and a few others still hit stuff with our old bound windpours/deicides to get that proc off and switch to G16s from time to time to get the **** dead faster. FF not a great example of that anymore (they're swiss cheese if I do that or not), but Warsong I see a good difference.

Really just about everyone who wants end game claws/fists is going for G16s it seems. I see mostly glowy hands, feather claws, and deicides now. I've seen like two sets of SDs and Windpours in the last week and I am unfortunately in the Nirvana or WS areas with one or two toons on a regular basis. So hopefully people have gotten it in their heads G13s (SDs or Nv) aren't an end game choice anymore because getting better is no longer severely cost prohibitive.

XShui - Lost City wrote: »

This is my gear as it is now; [URL="http://pwcalc.com/be0ad13a6146cded[/URL]
Anyhow this is a bit inaccurate. My damage with Deicide is 3694-4322 and sparked 8839-10342.

Im farming for the -int nv pants atm.
As endgame wep I go for Windpour 3rd recast since Im not planning to selling it anyway.

Personally i would recommend some restating on that bm build. Especially on the vit, and dex. 200 dex green is more than enough. Wouldn't recommend it now, since you are still in the process of acquiring gear, but do keep a look out for it. Especially if getting -int tome later. Your damage improvement will be considerable.

A tt90 gold helm is not that bad to farm either.

Since you already have two pieces of tt 99 HA, the chest choice is free, i presume you will be going g15/g16 on the chest?

I liked the proc on deicides, i wish my g16 had it b:victory. Make everything go faster.

As for weapon choice, g16, with good hp = ability to tank most bosses with ease with bp only.

I won't say anything about rings, because i still have the worst rings possible on my bm, too lazy to upgrade. For a few months i ran with a cloud stir ring on b:dirty. I try weird things on my bm b:bye.

Question Maelael: Does your bm tank bosses in tt 3-2, 3-3? Would dot serve better there or vit stones? Considering the cost of vit stones, i am leaning towards dot.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Personally i would recommend some restating on that bm build. Especially on the vit, and dex. 200 dex green is more than enough. Wouldn't recommend it now, since you are still in the process of acquiring gear, but do keep a look out for it. Especially if getting -int tome later. Your damage improvement will be considerable.

A tt90 gold helm is not that bad to farm either.

Since you already have two pieces of tt 99 HA, the chest choice is free, i presume you will be going g15/g16 on the chest?

I liked the proc on deicides, i wish my g16 had it b:victory. Make everything go faster.

As for weapon choice, g16, with good hp = ability to tank most bosses with ease with bp only.

I won't say anything about rings, because i still have the worst rings possible on my bm, too lazy to upgrade. For a few months i ran with a cloud stir ring on b:dirty. I try weird things on my bm b:bye.

Question Maelael: Does your bm tank bosses in tt 3-2, 3-3? Would dot serve better there or vit stones? Considering the cost of vit stones, i am leaning towards dot.

Only thing I can say to Shui is gah, you went evasion ornies. Your HP and overall defenses is going to lack bad.

In strange cases where I can outtank the sin I'm with or the sin dies, yea I tank 3-2 and 3-3 just fine, zero charm ticks. In the 2 times I've done a 3-2 and 3-3 with just a cleric with a sin buffer (ie, just me for damage), I did just fine. Kinda hazy tho, I wanna say like 2 charm ticks.

I mean really, if you're against the occasional charm tick, sure - vit stones are fine. But TBH 16k buffed HP seems to work fine for Sins, Barbs, and BMs everywhere. It's the BP heals that are important - and personally I like putting **** down faster. For a loss of 14 attack levels, I'd gain almost 4k hp with vit stones, 775 Pdef, and 600MR according to pwcalc (the 600 seems off...).

So it's kinda a preference thing in the end, I can see people saying they'd rather have that much defense over 14 attack levels. I'd say the same thing, if had an issue tanking anything at 16k hp.

BUT, if you're doing PvP and TW, and using the same gear - thats a reason to go vit stones. That 14 attack levels does not compare with the amount of defenses as vit stones at that level. A few of the DoT R9 BMs I run across hit barely harder than the JoSD/Vit Stone BMs it seems (PK and TW), but don't survive worth a ****, which ends up meaning they're less useful and kill less on the field. But to each their own style.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Thanks for the info . For pvp, i will be getting a pvp set, i would like to have two different sets in the end. PVE and PVP builds are different enough, that if one has the money, inclination, one should get different sets.

I also believe the faster one kills a boss, less likely chances of things going wrong.

My first aim is to finish the PVE set though, just missing refines, mostly +6 now, and shards, rings, and necklace. Getting dot's will put me at 93 attack lvls opposed to 75 for now. So i can farm instances when i am not playing with friends or have different schedules.

Hopefully i will have enough saved by march for the new r9 gear to get the canny/rap part done, just have to wait and see how the tw mats turn out if they do. The joys of saving for r9, better r9 keeps on coming out, so i never get to invest. By the time i have enough money saved for the new r9, i am sure r10 will be rolling out.

I can't bring myself to do stage 2 R9 at it's current prices of 800m. I'd rather gear out my friends before I do that. I've already spoiled myself with my Barb.

Would the Morai 101 axes still do good in PVP and TW?

well slaying lvl dont work on pvp only in pve but still it is good axe if you cant afford bether
depends on your endgame goals. you might consider r8 or go nirvana path and some day get g16. but to start whit G15 morai is good axe. bether than tt99. pve vise it is close to r9

What the fur. Channeling stuff on a BM?! Geez, get something good with +vit or something. e.e


My endgame on BM atm, just missing a few refines still: http://pwcalc.com/6be0cf7e0efa4967

I used to be the LA wrist/boot, HA ornaments route but since I had to farm HA anyway I decided to go full HA. Atm I'm either 4.0 with a vit tome or 5.0 with pan gus. Comes in handy.