Sage Versus Demon Archer, A DPS Study

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Comments

  • Lee_Hyori - Dreamweaver
    Lee_Hyori - Dreamweaver Posts: 105 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    I just noticed something...

    Illyana, Asterelle, and Fleuri are so vastly similar in many respects. I've played with all three of u and listened to the way u guys talk in-game and on forum.

    All 3 of u are: Analytic, Factual, Smart, Argumentative, Math Lovers, Excellent at using Archers,
    Long term players (I've played two classes on 2 different servers with 2 long breaks over the span of ur archers)

    Only Fleuri is a girl irl I think!

    Sorry, that was random but just something interesting to me.
    retired from pwi b:cry
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    :O same Lee Hyori that used to play an archer on sanct? you tank manta for me b:cute
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Lee_Hyori - Dreamweaver
    Lee_Hyori - Dreamweaver Posts: 105 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Yes, Manta and I had something going....
    retired from pwi b:cry
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It procs for 6 seconds.

    Hmmm... Ecatomb says 6, this screenshot says 5-- perhaps another entry needs to be made into the skill description corrections?

    http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/DScythe99/2009-11-1118-41-39.jpg

    Can another reputable demon archer confirm 5 or 6 seconds?
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Hmmm... Ecatomb says 6, this screenshot says 5-- perhaps another entry needs to be made into the skill description corrections?

    http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a394/DScythe99/2009-11-1118-41-39.jpg

    Can another reputable demon archer confirm 5 or 6 seconds?

    I have the skill learnt. It says 6.

    PW:MY says 6.

    I'm sure it's 6.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Impossible to figure out unless we specify a target.. If we have a set challenge as in, how fast can they take down 1 mil HP off a zero def char, then the sage would win....

    and that doesn't even begin to consider sparking and SE which is fine, lol

    True, it would be impossible without specifying a target.

    I think what I want to say is that the 4% (or 2%) from Sage STA is not something to scoff at when talking about TT bosses for lvl 90+ archers.

    *IF* the basic attack pattern of Demon does do more damage than Sage, it still has to compensate for the 4% or 2% gain that Sage inherently has from a better STA. Note that this is not a 4% gain on damage, but instead an static amount of damage equal to 4% of the target's HP.

    I think a lot of pro-demon arguments are forgetting to factor this.
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    True, it would be impossible without specifying a target.

    I think what I want to say is that the 4% (or 2%) from Sage STA is not something to scoff at when talking about TT bosses for lvl 90+ archers.

    *IF* the basic attack pattern of Demon does do more damage than Sage, it still has to compensate for the 4% or 2% gain that Sage inherently has from a better STA. Note that this is not a 4% gain on damage, but instead an static amount of damage equal to 4% of the target's HP.

    I think a lot of pro-demon arguments are forgetting to factor this.

    Only ends up being 480k extra damage (maximum taking WB as the limit) when both parties have Blood Vow learnt.

    I didn't forget it and I hope no one did too. But then again, a Sage veno at 92 can do the same thing and venos are always around in TT runs (not necessarily Sage though).
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I have the skill learnt. It says 6.

    PW:MY says 6.

    I'm sure it's 6.

    Could you time this for me? I want to get reports from other sources beyond what the skill description says... not sure how easy this would be. Upon proc, do you get a status icon?
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Could you time this for me? I want to get reports from other sources beyond what the skill description says... not sure how easy this would be. Upon proc, do you get a status icon?

    There's an icon upon procing. Will need to be home to do the test. Perhaps someone could time this and report here without having to wait 12 hours for my test for a validation?
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Doesn't Transcend record videos of her TW experience or something? Does she use Demon Quickshot in those?

    We could time those.
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Doesn't Transcend record videos of her TW experience or something? Does she use Demon Quickshot in those?

    We could time those.

    The videos are usually sped up (slowed down during crits etc). Hard to keep track I think.
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Could you time this for me? I want to get reports from other sources beyond what the skill description says... not sure how easy this would be. Upon proc, do you get a status icon?

    Timed it 5 times and all 5 times indicated a 6 second proc.
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Timed it 5 times and all 5 times indicated a 6 second proc.

    Ok-- this should be put over to the incorrect skill descriptions side. If you would be so kind (since I didn't discover it, I don't want to defend or take credit for it).

    Actually, it appears to be more of an item translation issue more than anything.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Dudusk - Lost City
    Dudusk - Lost City Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Hmmm at the end of the day Skill is what is important too.
    Back when I use to play, 2 demon archers Ganked a Sage archer i knew but both failed and both died.
    I remember dying to Wel once after I went sage but i had **** gear compared to her but after I hit 90 and got better gear this was the outcomehttp://tinyurl.com/welde and she still had way better gear than me.
    Watching Transcend's videos also proves that playing demon u need to be skilled.
  • Bowlinbob - Lost City
    Bowlinbob - Lost City Posts: 3,446 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    <- glad im not an archer.

    my head hurts QQ

    edit: 1900 posts wewts
  • Dudusk - Lost City
    Dudusk - Lost City Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    I gotta admit that in PVE while grinding with Transcend he would kill faster than I would with us both having similar gear...
  • Transcend - Lost City
    Transcend - Lost City Posts: 448 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    It's 6 seconds, and also says that on the tooltip last time I checked, which was this morning :)
    youtube.com/transcendpw

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  • Coraline - Lost City
    Coraline - Lost City Posts: 867 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    LloydAsplund - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The archer forums have so much math..

    Other forums:
    veno- nix is the best! i solo everything.
    barb - i has hp?
    wizard - LA or arcane? omg we so weak.
    BM - what weapon is best????
    cleric - Q_Q my mp charm

    LOLb:chuckle
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    eatswithspoons "*roll eyes* real money for virtual property? That's definitely not allowed"

    Lol what?
  • Cirdan - Lost City
    Cirdan - Lost City Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    from your numbers spreadsheet it looks like demon archers get 22% increase in crit if they have all their demon skills. Does this mean the sharptooth and stunning arrow crit buffs stack?

    Just wondering.....
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    No they do not.
  • infinitebluesky
    infinitebluesky Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    Just a question from a noob archer:
    what if a sage archer open (or maybe later in the duel) whit a stun arrow (stun 4,5 seconds sage version) or better whit aim low (8 seconds stun) and than take aim or better spark and than take aim (3 seconds charge)? That will be a 500% shoot or 1000% shoot whit spark,whit a potential critical hit may reach 2000% damage...i think a similar attack may almost kill anyone (are like 10 - 20 attacks in 1...)
    You must use the chi pot and find the right moment to stun,but if it work?
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    infinitebluesky wrote: »
    Just a question from a noob archer:
    what if a sage archer open (or maybe later in the duel) whit a stun arrow (stun 4,5 seconds sage version) or better whit aim low (8 seconds stun) and than take aim or better spark and than take aim (3 seconds charge)? That will be a 500% shoot or 1000% shoot whit spark,whit a potential critical hit may reach 2000% damage...i think a similar attack may almost kill anyone (are like 10 - 20 attacks in 1...)
    You must use the chi pot and find the right moment to stun,but if it work?

    500% added weapon attack is only about twice as damaging as a normal arrow for a typical pure dex sage archer. Add a sage spark to it and it is about three times as damaging as a normal shot. If this sage sparked take aim does crit than it is 6 times a non-spark non-crit normal arrow.

    Of course it also takes 6 seconds to pull off a sage sparked sage take aim. In that time I can walk 36 meters.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited November 2009
    sage aim low doesn't stun. i think if someone's dumb enough to stand there as an archer triple sparks and channels take aim, whatever. aim low can be dealt with, stun doesn't last long enough for..triple spark and take aim
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Cirdan - Lost City wrote: »
    from your numbers spreadsheet it looks like demon archers get 22% increase in crit if they have all their demon skills. Does this mean the sharptooth and stunning arrow crit buffs stack?

    Just wondering.....

    Yes, I was under the impression the two stacked. If you read the thread in its entirety, you'll see an updated set of optimized attack patterns using sharpened tooth exclusively.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited December 2009
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    sage aim low doesn't stun. i think if someone's dumb enough to stand there as an archer triple sparks and channels take aim, whatever. aim low can be dealt with, stun doesn't last long enough for..triple spark and take aim

    You're right, it has a 25% chance to seal for 5 secs which works regardless if the shot hits or not or if it freezes or not.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • MyraKai - Heavens Tear
    MyraKai - Heavens Tear Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    3 Year necro...really? b:sweat
    IIluslion - Archosaur wrote: »
    to put it simple.

    the more newb you are, the older the necro'd thread will be.

    Fixed.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    IIluslion - Archosaur wrote: »
    to put it simple.

    the more newb you are, the worse your demon/sage archer will be.

    the better you are the better it will become.

    also depends day to day. you can have downmoments that you react slower then normal. visaversa.


    so basicly, it doesnt matter what calculation you do. i can have my own if you like.

    Sage archer= bowmastery 90% weapon dmg + 3spark 700% weapon dmg + Sage take aim 500% weapon dmg + taggling mire + extreme poison + posibility on crit.

    now to that with a r9 +12bow with drakeflame, maybe even a full DoT sharded gear?

    yes demon can have that armor and r9 +12bow.
    but not asmuch dmg in 1hit.
    they can do more hits, but less dmg.

    yeh i can miss my take aim. thats a risk, but what if it hits??
    a charm can save me from the 3/4 hits the demon archer can do, but can de demon archer charm save him from that take aim shot?
    possible.. but unlikely, in my opinion.

    Even if this *calculation* is far from accurate, the thought alone is frightning.

    I don't know, that post right there was pretty noob to begin with.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Vindis - Dreamweaver
    Vindis - Dreamweaver Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    This was totally the thread I was thinking of the other day when I mentioned math and sage vs demon.

    I would love to see the scenarios explored more, but that is not something for me, and without Fleuri or Illyana playing I am not sure who would be up to such a task..

    Demon QS procs probably put Demon dps far above sage, but I am uncertain how the chan time will affect things as well, and scenarios where it does not proc.
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    Retired from PWI.

    b:bye
  • Hurrdurr - Lothranis
    Hurrdurr - Lothranis Posts: 1,468 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Demon QS procs probably put Demon dps far above sage, but I am uncertain how the chan time will affect things as well, and scenarios where it does not proc.

    If you're using QS it suggests that you can't easily kill the opponent (in a 1v1 situation anyway, in TW you might use it on moderated geared people just to kill them faster). If it does not proc, you're going to have a hard time killing them regardless, if it dooes proc you have a high chance of killing them especially if you use it just before a charm tick.
  • $now - Dreamweaver
    $now - Dreamweaver Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited February 2012
    Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Yes, I was under the impression the two stacked. If you read the thread in its entirety, you'll see an updated set of optimized attack patterns using sharpened tooth exclusively.

    they don't stackb:cry

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