The most fearsome R9+12.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · February 2012

Haruzi - Lost City wrote: »

In case any of you didn't know, Absorb soul won't work if you use an anti damage amp skill, such as evil ward. As for Mystics with R9, I'm pretty sure they're to be feared considering their defense and channel times. Not quite as good as psys, but you can't forget they have pets and plants which will amp damage, and don't forget their pet's take after the caster's stat's unlike veno pets. Anyone know if attack lvls affect pet damage? Hopefully not...b:surrender

Mystic pets get half of Mystic attack levels. If Mystic triggers genie skill frenzy before summoning pet, it gets to keep half of attack level boost too even after frenzy has cooled down.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands · February 2012

Illuvyen - Harshlands wrote: »

I think, I cannot stop myself to correct that.

The r9 gear is a bit overrated. People who see these gears just say: oh my god and run away. I've got full nirvana sin, not even +11 refined excepting my r8 daggers(+12). Well, right. It is sage. But I kill r9 max refined Seekers in 1vs1 fights. Mystics (or other arcane character)? Sins got stealth. Just use it. Jump and kill

But you can't kill me in my TT90/95 mold mix with 1st cast NV leggings.
Points: The Seekers on our server suck, and the survivability of a Seeker is very dependent on their skill and their genie.

@TheDan: R9 Mystics can actually do very large amounts of spike damage with their assured crit 100 skill and a large amount of crit increase coming from leeching chihyu.

And R9 Seekers hit harder than R9 BMs. Just like non-R9 axe BMs don't hit as hard as equally geared non-R9 Seekers. The only difference is that BMs have the potential to land HF zerk crits, but constituting that as enough evidence to claim that BMs hit harder is illogical.

Oh, and after expansion, Seekers will get a skill that increases their attack levels by 50% and debuffs them for 40% of their defense levels. If that debuff turns out to be transferrable, a full R9 JoSD Seeker would be increasing their attack levels from 100ish to 150, and debuffing you for about 40 of your defense levels.

Anyway, I agree that the most feared R9 class would probably be the one that's best at their class.

TheDan - Sanctuary · February 2012

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

But you can't kill me in my TT90/95 mold mix with 1st cast NV leggings.
Points: The Seekers on our server suck, and the survivability of a Seeker is very dependent on their skill and their genie.

@TheDan: R9 Mystics can actually do very large amounts of spike damage with their assured crit 100 skill and a large amount of crit increase coming from leeching chihyu.

And R9 Seekers hit harder than R9 BMs. Just like non-R9 axe BMs don't hit as hard as equally geared non-R9 Seekers. The only difference is that BMs have the potential to land HF zerk crits, but constituting that as enough evidence to claim that BMs hit harder is illogical.

Oh, and after expansion, Seekers will get a skill that increases their attack levels by 50% and debuffs them for 40% of their defense levels. If that debuff turns out to be transferrable, a full R9 JoSD Seeker would be increasing their attack levels from 100ish to 150, and debuffing you for about 40 of your defense levels.

Anyway, I agree that the most feared R9 class would probably be the one that's best at their class.

R9 mystics have ok damage. They would rank above clerics, but still fall short of a black voodo psy or a spark undine bt wizard.

How is constituting bm hf zerk crit out-dding seekers illogical? Last I checked, hf was a bm restricted axe skill and isn't restricted in pvp.

What's illogical is strutting around claiming you out dd someone only if they are restricted from using their 59 ulti skill. What bm doesn't use hf? Sure, seekers have higher raw damage but pvp is not based off raw damage. That'd be like saying psychics out dd wizards only if they don't use their undine strike...

How can you even compare bm and seeker damage pre-r9? Seekers are pretty much nothing pre-r9; they don't even get zerk weapons pre-r9, with the exception of the weak g11 zerk sword. Bms can at least do something pre-r9 with g15 zerk weapons.

TheDendra - Harshlands · February 2012

Why is there even a debate on this? Obviously R9 psy is the most broken class endgame. You don't even need to install the game to realize that, all you need is a functional brain, experience in competitive games and a grain of patience to read through skill descriptions.

Horosho - Lost City · February 2012

Tideborns are OP with r9+12 or w/o r9 >_>

Kairu_ - Sanctuary · February 2012

so um ya, ONLY OPINION, so don't flame me to badly lol. i'll give explinations if asked but otherwise i'll keep those to myself, since it'd be a very lengthy explination

i wanna see a video of a good r9 mystic before i can say yay or nay on thier dmg being low, since in my eyes *mine* absorb soul and thicket seem to be your bread and butter, and neither of them are effected by attack/defence levels. and in tw chiyu is easily the best pet to absorb due do pdef + crit rate. ya 4k s hield and a high petals is nice but just not as good.

psy's and barbs are top 2 easily. archer is what i'd put 3rd without a second thought. just look at kirby lol. sins i'd put in 4th tbh, ya their 1v1 is amazing but *** their a sin, their made to 1v1. archers i rank higher over them due to their higher virsatility vs well any class. where if sin faces off against an HA in similar gear their in trouble no matter how you look at it.

personal opinion

#1 psy
#2 barb
#3 archer
#4 sin
#5 wizzy *for me this is a close call with wizzy*
#6 cleric *ya many of you will disagree with this one ik, but a proper played cleric is devistating*
#7 bm *due to zerk + hf + a variety of stuns *not immobilizes* + hf which can crush used properly

the last 3, mystic, seeker, and veno r9's i haven't seen enough played right to judge a position for me. necy is good but i haven't actually watched her fight so i couldnt guess. mystic is the only one i know much about atm for those 3, and r9 on mystic to me is iffy since atk lvls dont add any adjustments to thicket/absorb soul, which atm are my primary attacks when i wanna burst. and crit rate doesn't effect those either. once i actually tw with mystic more i'll have a better opinion

XXZeonXx - Harshlands · February 2012

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

R9 mystics have ok damage. They would rank above clerics, but still fall short of a black voodo psy or a spark undine bt wizard.

How is constituting bm hf zerk crit out-dding seekers illogical? Last I checked, hf was a bm restricted axe skill and isn't restricted in pvp.

What's illogical is strutting around claiming you out dd someone only if they are restricted from using their 59 ulti skill. What bm doesn't use hf? Sure, seekers have higher raw damage but pvp is not based off raw damage. That'd be like saying psychics out dd wizards only if they don't use their undine strike...

How can you even compare bm and seeker damage pre-r9? Seekers are pretty much nothing pre-r9; they don't even get zerk weapons pre-r9, with the exception of the weak g11 zerk sword. Bms can at least do something pre-r9 with g15 zerk weapons.

It's illogical because you're saying that because of a skill that doubles damage and cannot be used constantly nor consistently, BMs hit harder. Yes, it may help them deal great spike damage in PvP, but by that same logic, excluding the rare HF zerk crits, a Seeker can pull off great spike damage with edged blur. Or with double sparking, lmao.

If you want to talk PvP, then Seekers have a debuff which reduces the opponent's defense levels attack by 11 for three minutes, costs no chi, and is refreshable. Seekers have a proc that causes them to do an extra ~8000 metal damage upon using an activating attack skill. Seekers can transfer self-given debuffs onto the enemy to aid their spike damage. Seekers have a skill that decreases the opponent's metal resistance by 35%.

I was talking from a purely skill-damage based point of view. And you already agreed with my that Seekers hit harder when looking at it that way.

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sure, seekers have higher raw damage

If you want to talk situational, then by all means I can provide a valid argument for that as well.

By the way, of course in a zerk weapon vs non-zerk weapon scenario, the zerk weapon's going to be better at dealing enough spike damage to kill someone after a charm tick. Assuming that zerk procs, that is.

What you're basically saying is that if a Seeker is using a non-zerk weapon and none of its ultis, then a BM with a zerk weapon and or using HF would be better at doing spike damage. If that is the point that you're trying to get across, then I'd like to let you know that that's common sense. Everyone knows that zerk crits exist, and that HF crits/zerk-crits exist.

But if both classes have zerk weapons, then in PvP a Seeker is going to be a more reliable and more flexible DD.

As for the pre-R9 argument.. G15 zerk axe BMs will probably get out-DD'd by a G15 dual blade/sword wielding Seekers in most cases where spike damage is important. This is because most of the time you're aiming for massive spike damage it's against an HA BM, Barb, or Seeker. And Seekers have a lot more DD potential than BMs against HAs due to our magic attacks. I don't really care that a zerk BM can do better spike damage than me to an LA or an AA because the goal in my fights against them isn't to deal spike damage anyway.

I will grant that APS BMs do hit harder than Seekers pre-R9, however.

TheDan - Sanctuary · February 2012

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

It's illogical because you're saying that because of a skill that doubles damage and cannot be used constantly nor consistently, BMs hit harder. Yes, it may help them deal great spike damage in PvP, but by that same logic, excluding the rare HF zerk crits, a Seeker can pull off great spike damage with edged blur. Or with double sparking, lmao.

If you want to talk PvP, then Seekers have a debuff which reduces the opponent's defense levels attack by 11 for three minutes, costs no chi, and is refreshable. Seekers have a proc that causes them to do an extra ~8000 metal damage upon using an activating attack skill. Seekers can transfer self-given debuffs onto the enemy to aid their spike damage. Seekers have a skill that decreases the opponent's metal resistance by 35%.

I was talking from a purely skill-damage based point of view. And you already agreed with my that Seekers hit harder when looking at it that way.
If you want to talk situational, then by all means I can provide a valid argument for that as well.

By the way, of course in a zerk weapon vs non-zerk weapon scenario, the zerk weapon's going to be better at dealing enough spike damage to kill someone after a charm tick. Assuming that zerk procs, that is.

What you're basically saying is that if a Seeker is using a non-zerk weapon and none of its ultis, then a BM with a zerk weapon and or using HF would be better at doing spike damage. If that is the point that you're trying to get across, then I'd like to let you know that that's common sense. Everyone knows that zerk crits exist, and that HF crits/zerk-crits exist.

But if both classes have zerk weapons, then in PvP a Seeker is going to be a more reliable and more flexible DD.

As for the pre-R9 argument.. G15 zerk axe BMs will probably get out-DD'd by a G15 dual blade/sword wielding Seekers in most cases where spike damage is important. This is because most of the time you're aiming for massive spike damage it's against an HA BM, Barb, or Seeker. And Seekers have a lot more DD potential than BMs against HAs due to our magic attacks. I don't really care that a zerk BM can do better spike damage than me to an LA or an AA because the goal in my fights against them isn't to deal spike damage anyway.

I will grant that APS BMs do hit harder than Seekers pre-R9, however.

We've already established the fact that seekers have more "skill" damage. Seekers have more potential DPH damage due to having more "skill" damage, but it doesn't equate to being the more reliable and consistent DD in PvP in my opinion, because dropping a R9 enemy in PvP usually requires a multitude of consistent attacks; it grants BMs the DPS advantage, which is why I believe it's logical to rank BMs higher in being able to kill enemies in PvP. Seeker damage is too situational; their spike damage relies heavily upon uncontrollable debuffs from other classes in order to be able to generate enough spike damage to kill. BMs rely on HF, but it is controllable by the BM and therefore not situational in its nature.

Obviously our points of view differ upon defining better what is a better DD, and we've both brought up some valid points, but with the expansion yesterday with skill balancing, a lot of this discussion is irrelevant as my original post was made well over a month ago before the release of the new skills and skill balancing. None of my original posts included the new skills as there wasn't an official release date of the expansion until last week.

As of now. I haven't had to look at all of the new class skills thoroughly to make a proper judgement of each classes' new PvP capabilities. All I know is now that BMs really got a nice deal out of the skill balancing as we have our own DPH edged blur skill and tele stun now.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · February 2012

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

As of now. I haven't had to look at all of the new class skills thoroughly to make a proper judgement of each classes' new PvP capabilities. All I know is now that BMs really got a nice deal out of the skill balancing as we have our own DPH edged blur skill and tele stun now.

The tele stun is a really nice addition to BMs control skills (although the range at only 15 m could have been a little longer) but cyclone sword does seem to be of little use beyond being yet another anti-stun skill. It has extremely weak damage, very long cool down and you can't use any other skills while its activated (unlike Seekers edged blur).

Spell_Caster - Raging Tide · February 2012

My +12 Wizz fought with many classes, harderst to kill:
1. Psych
2. Barb
3. Seeker/sin(a full r9+12 sin can be pretty dificult to kill with their buffs)
4. Wiz/Cleric

Have not yet met dificult to kill r9+12 Mystics/BMs/Venos. Maybe my server is lacking such PKers.

deathrider35 · February 2012

GoddessNoa - Sanctuary wrote: »

pretty sure mystics are the only class in the game that can one shot a 12+ full josd psy in def mode maybe they should move to the top for the best dds in the game.

SS or it didn't happen...

Spell_Caster - Raging Tide · February 2012

I dont think they could do that. First of all, a +12 Psych has around 13-14k hp. Secondly, even triple sparked, Absorb soul cannot crit, and the other mystic spells that can crit, cannot really ignore defense levels. I might be wrong here, but it's worth to test. b:chuckle

Amour - Lost City · February 2012

R9 makes everyone OP, but some classes innately do not do as much damage as others. For examples, psychics are hard to kill between stuns, paralyzes, white voodoo, and soul of silence, but often lack the raw damage to kill another full buffed R9 target 1v1 (if the target is playing as it should, ie apothecary pots, mdef charms, control skills etc). At the same time, a wizard might have a much easier time via undine spark BT or sutra + fire skills, yet lack the defensive capability psychics might have.

My personal list would go like this:

1. Sin/Psy (duh)
2. Wizard
3. Venomancer
4. Archer
5. Seeker
6. Mystic
7. Barb
8. BM
9. Cleric

No one has venos anymore... but the fact that they can remove 150-300% Pdef, 60% Mdef, 35% HP, + whole sorts of other odds n sodds make them pretty damn amazing in my eyes.

Regenbogen - Lost City · February 2012

Amour - Lost City wrote: »

R9 makes everyone OP, but some classes innately do not do as much damage as others. For examples, psychics are hard to kill between stuns, paralyzes, white voodoo, and soul of silence, but often lack the raw damage to kill another full buffed R9 target 1v1 (if the target is playing as it should, ie apothecary pots, mdef charms, control skills etc). At the same time, a wizard might have a much easier time via undine spark BT or sutra + fire skills, yet lack the defensive capability psychics might have.

My personal list would go like this:

1. Sin/Psy (duh)
2. Wizard
3. Venomancer
4. Archer
5. Seeker
6. Mystic
7. Barb
8. BM
9. Cleric

No one has venos anymore... but the fact that they can remove 40/100%+55% Pdef, 35(?)/100% Mres +30% Woodres(demon), 20% HP(sage), + whole sorts of other odds n sodds make them pretty damn amazing in my eyes.

a bit too optimistic hun b:cute
if you count purge as removing def/res then what about spirit blackhole proc?

- chances for 100% debuffs are only 25%
- debuffs don't stack except for tangling mire(35%+20%pdef on a 100str genie)
- 35% magres debuff requires a petskillslot, magres debuffs from genies arn't much useful

nobody will just sit there and let you debuff them...
they will spark to purify, stunlock and maybe finish you with some crazy combo...b:surrender

Amour - Lost City · February 2012

Nobody will let you purge them? Doesn't matter. If they immune to it you immune and ktie and wait till it's off CD. It's pretty much 100% and all of those numbers are buffs from other classes (wb, ep, etc).

My veno purges people all the time, the only ones you'll really have trouble with is sins because of tidal op.

Man - Raging Tide · February 2012

Depends on what your doing, Pvp, Tournament TW.

Psychics are definitely scary, but not as scary as a a wizard with the genie skill "spark" for nuking you down.

In TW it seems like every class has its role and is effective, yet in TW "purge" is king so rank 9 archers take the award due to their relatively rounded defense, aoe skills, and purge procs. A purged enemy is almost as good as a dead enemy. End game you need teamwork and assist attack to effectively kill opponents, or purge!

As a barb we are pretty decent against everything pvp except assassins can win a war of attrition, since they have much better control skills and chi manipulation, they can triple spark 6 times in the space a barb can maybe spark once. In group pvp barbs lack anti control skills and needing to get to melee really hurt their effectiveness.

Regenbogen - Lost City · February 2012

Amour - Lost City wrote: »

Nobody will let you purge them? Doesn't matter. If they immune to it you immune and ktie and wait till it's off CD. It's pretty much 100% and all of those numbers are buffs from other classes (wb, ep, etc).

My veno purges people all the time, the only ones you'll really have trouble with is sins because of tidal op.

sry by debuff i meant not only purge but also soul degen,amp,myriad rainbow...

Ahira - Lost City · February 2012

Amour - Lost City wrote: »

R9 makes everyone OP, but some classes innately do not do as much damage as others. For examples, psychics are hard to kill between stuns, paralyzes, white voodoo, and soul of silence, but often lack the raw damage to kill another full buffed R9 target 1v1 (if the target is playing as it should, ie apothecary pots, mdef charms, control skills etc). At the same time, a wizard might have a much easier time via undine spark BT or sutra + fire skills, yet lack the defensive capability psychics might have.

My personal list would go like this:

1. Sin/Psy (duh)
2. Wizard
3. Venomancer
4. Archer
5. Seeker
6. Mystic
7. Barb
8. BM
9. Cleric

No one has venos anymore... but the fact that they can remove 150-300% Pdef, 60% Mdef, 35% HP, + whole sorts of other odds n sodds make them pretty damn amazing in my eyes.

I think veno's are great in pvp as well but I would still put archers ahead. Yesh clerics are bottom- no argument about that! b:cry

U_Sasuke - Sanctuary · February 2012

Man r9 psychic not that big of a deal for me. If u think r9 psychic are OP, try fighting a +12 JOSD bm or barb. U'll hit them forever and never kill them, atleast a smart bm/barb that know what they are doing. There's MarcsLegacy bm on my server, and +12 r9 wep hit him 1.5k dmg max with undine + EP in magic marrow. I saw him tank A 'r9 +12 psychic in black voodoo 3 spark' like it was another day at beach. Same with barb, you guys realize how hard it is to take down josd/vit stoned +12 barbs r9? you can barely get them to charm tick and then if you try to do something fancy, here comes SS or invoke. r9 pscychis for me are piece of cake atleast in my server, but when i have to fight a good r9 josd/vit stoned +10+ bm or barb....how should i say, ITS ***!

FkinMaltaMan - Sanctuary · February 2012

U_Sasuke - Sanctuary wrote: »

Man r9 psychic not that big of a deal for me. If u think r9 psychic are OP, try fighting a +12 JOSD bm or barb. U'll hit them forever and never kill them, atleast a smart bm/barb that know what they are doing. There's MarcsLegacy bm on my server, and +12 r9 wep hit him 1.5k dmg max with undine + EP in magic marrow. I saw him tank A 'r9 +12 psychic in black voodoo 3 spark' like it was another day at beach. Same with barb, you guys realize how hard it is to take down josd/vit stoned +12 barbs r9? you can barely get them to charm tick and then if you try to do something fancy, here comes SS or invoke. r9 pscychis for me are piece of cake atleast in my server, but when i have to fight a good r9 josd/vit stoned +10+ bm or barb....how should i say, ITS ***!

Depends which class u r playing. For wizards it shouldn't be a big deal if he/she can't play his/her bm really well. with spark (genie skill) blade tempest is a pain in magic marrow. Since wizard has some *** sleep skill and most HA classes wasting their energy very fast these days AD isn't used as often as before since it has a huge cost of important energy.

VoItaire - Harshlands · March 2012

Spell_Caster - Raging Tide wrote: »

I dont think they could do that. First of all, a +12 Psych has around 13-14k hp. Secondly, even triple sparked, Absorb soul cannot crit, and the other mystic spells that can crit, cannot really ignore defense levels. I might be wrong here, but it's worth to test. b:chuckle

It doesn't matter, with enough -channeling a mystic can get off 3 absorb souls in an entire sleep duration.

Traydor_Styx - Raging Tide · March 2012

Spell_Caster - Raging Tide wrote: »

I dont think they could do that. First of all, a +12 Psych has around 13-14k hp. Secondly, even triple sparked, Absorb soul cannot crit, and the other mystic spells that can crit, cannot really ignore defense levels. I might be wrong here, but it's worth to test. b:chuckle

The reason Soul Absorb doesn't crit is due to it deals more damage then the actual crit damage.

I can't really say why that is. Crit is 125% while Absorb Soul deals 150%.

upsides · March 2012

Thanks for all the feedback on this thread guys. I didn't expect my thread to generate this many responses, I'm grateful.

I think trying to section this up into the different scenarios in which R9 creates an influence would be helpful.

-In TW who would be the most fearsome R9?

-1vs1 Pk?

- World Pk?

-Guild vs Guild Pk?

What class would be the most factor in those instances? What class exerts the largest influence?

Nurfed_You - Harshlands · March 2012

after watching a certain lost city sin's full r9+12 JoSD destroy in 1v1 tw gvg and just open pvp. i'd have to say sage chill sins for all of it.

Reninz - Dreamweaver · March 2012

Traydor_Styx - Raging Tide wrote: »

The reason Soul Absorb doesn't crit is due to it deals more damage then the actual crit damage.

I can't really say why that is. Crit is 125% while Absorb Soul deals 150%.

crit is actually 200% , you can check in ur char screen o.o.

Though if ur sin, u can get up to 240% crits (demon), 230% crits (lvl10) or 220% crits (sage)

with wolf emblem

Jesusisback - Raging Tide · March 2012

-edited-

TheDendra - Harshlands · March 2012

upsides wrote: »

What class would be the most factor in those instances? What class exerts the largest influence?

Sage archer with josd, demon psy with josd, sage psy with dots.

Hands down archers n psys are by far the most superior classes in TW. While psys don't have problems with sins, the archer does have high mobility on the ground and range. Overall they're the top dogs in TW, with psys being one of the most versatile, if not the most versatile class in the game.

In rpk sins win because they stealth, wait an hour 'till you get bored n go watch TV and then they decide to attack you.

P.S. Whoever put veno as 3rd on whatever list - very funny, venos get smacked left n right by most classes. They have **** damage and i.e. a psychic will roll them easily.

CritCat - Archosaur · March 2012

-In TW who would be the most fearsome R9?Psychics, Wizards, and Archers.

-1vs1 Pk?Assassins rule 1vs1, no doubt.

- World Pk?Psychics. I've been able to tank 20v1 on mine for a full minute. Along with rolling almost any other class with ease on Lost City.

-Guild vs Guild Pk?Hard to say, WIZARDSPAMULTIMATESERRY'DAY.

SpazzMcAps - Harshlands · March 2012

Ragamufinsin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

as i pk pretty much everyday/everytime i am in game i know for a fact that the most difficult to kill R9 +12 rank between seeker/psy/barb....

seekers have amazing defence lvl which is just totally wrong so pretty much unless u have R9 lvl weapon it wont be easy to kill

psy is another class which u generaly dont wanna mess with as an assassin R9 +12 max soul force and full jades is just OP entirely but alot easier to kill than seekers with the right combo

R9 +12 barbs full jades....killing 1 without an R9 weapon as a sin or at least G15 is totally unheared of simple fact is barb will take 300-600 dmg while doing 3k-30k dmg is too much of a difference http://youtu.be/NtXkF2RO5gw this assassin is easily the best pker on the server with a pretty decent weapon G15 +12 aprox 50 atk lvls 10 k Hp unbuffed and still gets 1 shot by a barb

so from an assassin's point of view i rank R9 +12 barb then R9 +12 seekers then R9 +12 psy hardest to kill

there are however other classes OP R9 +12 but for an assassin with a +10-12 weap is still possible to kill

however what i find funny is that R9 +12 archer will rip thru the 3 upper mentioned classes lol.....so its kind of a power balance really.

EDIT: this is from my personal experience btw there are many (i assume) will disagree but if u decide to disagree plz share ur opinion as it is an entirely opinionated thread so rather than troll i would urge ur opinion

he has a g16 mdef neck and a g15 pdef neckb:shocked

SpazzMcAps - Harshlands · March 2012

TheDendra - Harshlands wrote: »

Sage archer with josd, demon psy with josd, sage psy with dots.

Hands down archers n psys are by far the most superior classes in TW. While psys don't have problems with sins, the archer does have high mobility on the ground and range. Overall they're the top dogs in TW, with psys being one of the most versatile, if not the most versatile class in the game.

In rpk sins win because they stealth, wait an hour 'till you get bored n go watch TV and then they decide to attack you.

P.S. Whoever put veno as 3rd on whatever list - very funny, venos get smacked left n right by most classes. They have **** damage and i.e. a psychic will roll them easily.

unless He's overall knowledge of the class is legit.

The most fearsome R9+12.

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