sage or demon?

Crescendia - Harshlands wrote: »

Demon thicket procs alot with me o.O feels like it's more then 25% chance even though the description says 25% lol

Although I've yet to learn it (have the book, but slow getting to 99), I'm fairly certain it's actually a 25% chance per thicket plant, which comes out to be a 69% chance if all mobs are hit by all four hits. So it is actually roughly the same % as demon nova, if I'm interpreting that correctly. What I need to test when I hit 99 is what % it actually amps for...

This is how I look at it...

In the end, even though you can be a healer, it shouldn't be the only reason you go sage. Mystic is a DD, and a cleric support class at best. You aren't a cleric, you aren't meant to be a cleric so why gimp your DD for more defenses and more chance to do single purify if ur not a main healer? Endgame, there will be clerics around, I see plenty of them. Some people even roll clerics to be a decent farmer. Think of all the endgame things tjhat are available in this game. And think of how many of them would prefer a cleric over a mystic. If the only argument you can come up with is FC, then who cares? nobody would rather have a mystic rezzer in a glitch FC then a cleric that can give u 0% xp loss.

Mystic is best used as a DD and that's why I went demon, you have better dps, better survivability, decent defenses and great support plants to help out a group who might have challenges with gear or defenses. Pretty tired of people seeing a mystic as only a cleric when endgame, clrics are better at it then a mystic.

Okay I'd like to talk about the poster above me

I have yet to find wood mastery, I believe it's in the forge book clip, so that one is a little harder to get. And crits are crits, how many times have you lost to a crit than someone doing 5% more lol....

10% p def whoop tee doo, Id personally would want to have a chance to avoid heavens flame or stun like a sin, only magic class with tidal protection? Yes please

Absorb souls chi is out of the question... Vengeance yeah sure but, sparking is overrated end game.... The chi you get can be as easily achieved some other way, And demon already has the straight up damage output added, when in tandem with mist it deals even more

Mp usage lol. Be joking, saving less than 200 mp when summoning a pet. Great you healed it for the same cost of demon summon, real accomplishment

If you use cragg correctly, the extra three seconds doesn't matter, his skills will be in cooldown, which is when he shines, so he just gets 3 more melee hits... Which IMO isn't that much helpful for what I use cragg for

Demon gale has higher chance to freeze, slow doesn't matter if they still run, they won't run at all when frozen.

Don't point out all the positives of one side. b:laugh

Baby_pho - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i never said chosing demon path was bad. i simply said those are the reasons why i would chose sage. and i also said it depends on your playing style.


20% more evasion for 15 secs, is it really better than 10% more def for 30 mins?

and there are other ways to geting crits than going demon and going demon only gives u 2% extra its not that much more. my mystic will have about 17% of crit with her end game gear(she's pure mag with 5 vit base). (again depends on people's playing style and gear what they chose).

and yeah the mana would matter if u keep summoning them and leaching from them which is what i plan to use in pvp. i know its not that much more but i wanted to put it out there.

as for crag if you dont use him for dd what do you use him for? tank for 20 secs? 3 seconds in an rb can make a squad wipe.

demon gale has a chance of imobilize yes but it is 35%.

and i was pointing out the good in sage because i said those are the reasons why I chose sage path. i wasnt trying to compare demon vs. sage skill. that is why i was pointing out the good in sage. i did also mention some positives about demon but it wasnt that great for me to chose over sage. the op is asking for sage or demon and there was many demon mystics pointing out what is great about demon mystic. i am simply pointing out what is great about sage. again its all about prefference and your gaming style and what you plan to do with your mystic.

Yes because its STATUS EVASION, not dodge rate -.-, Tidal protection, which is what this buff does, makes you dodge heaven's flame debuff or a stun. 10% p def isn't going to save you.

2% is about the drop rate of anni packs. Technically with our same build, I'm getting an extra Best luck and scroll of tome.

Seriously? LOL you ask what i use him for?... I just specifically said HIS SKILLS ARE WHERE HE SHINES which is AOEING. What did you misinterpret? I was clearly saying that cragg will not get to use an extra skill in 3 seconds due to the cooldowns of those skills.

Mystics are a class of chance, higher chance means more pwn? take it or leave it.

I'm not saying your reasons are bad, but you only said two demon skills were good.

no one mentioned the 25% purify on break in the clouds combined with its insanely fast channel and casting?


anyway im not impressed by demon nor sage mystics. it seems like they dont have much cuz mose of there skills dont even have sage/demon effects like the plants.


EXTREMLY underpowered class honestly.

I am an 85 mystic going sage. a couple of things i would like to point out.

Many of these skills give chi in sage. this means faster sparks which means higher damage more frequently.
sage verdant shell gives 100% physical defense bonus demon gives a brief evasion boost...how very useful..

sage res gives you 95% exp loss reduction. demon gives you 100% hp back. some things to notice here. the description says only hp yet my level 10 also returns the MP back so im going to assume demon version would res you full hp and mp. great. if you arent charmed. I have heard from numerous sources that the charms tick is actually faster than the res return.

sage bramble tornado. chance to cast without chi. makes keeping those sparks rolling slightly easier. demon adds a meter to the knock back. mystics have like the smallest attack range next to flat melee. one meter isn't going to help much more. lay your character on the ground. you gained less than that length.

sage falling petals you regen about half the MP back used to cast it. useful for when you are in a brawl cuz you can keep that mp pool just a bit longer. demon gives you a longer time with it on you. 4 mins not 1 right? thats great if you have a decent trip across sin infested lands like say TW.

gale force. thats a tricky one. see sage slows them so they dont run far (biggest complaint about our fastest casting aoe) demon has a higher chance of making em stand there anyway. I personally find myself sometimes using gale force as a means to shake off an extra mob when im getting overpowered grinding. personally i perfer sages bonus in this case

cragglord. sage extra 3 seconds. thats like giving you and extra 1-2 skill hits in. demon has chance to only require 1 spark. thats awesome for the 25% of the time it works. but im not one to rely on luck so ill take my 3 seconds of bonus damage.


heres one of the larger arguments for all you healing fans

sage break in the clouds. 25% chance to puri vs demons comforting mist 35% chance.
ok.
break in the clouds 1 target 280 mana channel/cast .5sec cooldown 1 sec 25% puri chance
comforting mist for any of your party near you 1000 mana 3.5sec chan 1 sec cast 6 sec cooldown 35% chance puri.

odds are if you are playing a back row class like caster the only squad members near you are the other casters. unless its aoe debuffs using a costly aoe heal and hoping for the best is less effective then throwing a petals on the tank who is likely the one needing it.

finally to sum up the whole sage pve or healing demon pvp or DD. kinda noticing more chi gain and a higher wood mastery in sage. so i hit harder naturally and spark more often...

Just a note on the chi.... As a sage veno, I understand the value of chi entirely. I routinely do as well as or better than +10 R9 venos just using my weak +7 sinrabansho because I keep my chi up to triple spark a lot more than my rivals. In that context, however, there are several reasons that this is not quite as useful for a mystic:

1. In terms of non-long-term-dd, Break in the Clouds for a demon mystic gives you far more chi in the long run than the sage chi skill does, even if you (for some reason I cannot quite grasp) do not have a Cloud Eruption genie. Consider for a moment--a normal case of Break gives 10 chi. 20% of the time it will give 25 extra. So, in the minute that it takes for the sage chi skill to proc, if you use a few breaks for whatever reason, you'll likely get just as much chi from it as a sage does from their skill, and the cast time of break is such that casting it a few times it's a huge feat.

This means that a demon will get as much or more chi in any situation such as tigers where the boss aoes occasionally, and it gives far more in situations where there is a lot of healing. I will admit that in long term pure DD, sage gets more chi from NV, and I feel slighted that demon NV isn't what demon venomous is.

2. So, supposing one has the extra chi, what to do with it? Veno can bramble hood, feral concentration, and sage veno has 900% spark, all of which are good, though the former two more in pvp than pve, and vice versa for the latter. Sage veno also get a chance to save chi on 2 spark skills. Mystics, on the other hand, have a wide assortment of PvP-relative chi using skills such as Nature's Barrier, Lucky Break, Gale Force, Bramble Tornado, and Thicket.

However, it is demon mystics who get more chi in this situation, as it is more feasible to spam break than NV in pvp, whilst sage mystics get generally more chi in long term pve-dding situations. In these, the extra chi is not as useful--aside from cragg and triple spark, maybe Thicket, chi-using skills play much less of a role in dding. And the sage triple spark, which makes up for this on venos, is somewhat weak here--the damage reduction is much more suitable for pvp than pve, and the general damage isn't any better. Thus, though a sage can make more chi in pve, they have less uses for it than a demon who makes more chi in pvp does for chi in pvp.

the description says only hp yet my level 10 also returns the MP back so im going to assume demon version would res you full hp and mp. great. if you arent charmed. I have heard from numerous sources that the charms tick is actually faster than the res return.]/quote]

I can tell you that's false already. Even Lv 10's 50% restore does not tick my charm when I get up, so I have no reason whatsoever to imagine that Lv 11 would do worse than that, given that the principle should be the same. Honestly I personally see sage version as useless because exp won't matter that much by 99 since you're already so close to 100, and I don't solo heal things anyway, but I can see its appeal for others.

Im a bit confused about the spell, Thicket. Is it AoE or is it not?

Yes, it is an aoe. However, it's a relatively short ranged one; basically, each of the plants does an aoe of some range when summoned. Thus, it acts like an aoe most pointedly when you hit a large pull because the mobs are all grouped close together and so likely to be in range of one or more of the aoes. Also it should be noted that using it on really big bosses doesn't work for this same reason. Using it on Holeen in Frost, for example, makes the plants spawn too far away from his actual hitbox to do damage because of the way each plant does an aoe. However, aoe or not, it's an entirely reasonable thing to use on any Lv [?] boss who isn't this large, because the thicket plants are technically pets and so the damage is not mitigated by Lv [?].


Another specific skill note is that demon gale force and bramble tornado are much more useful in pvp, especially together. Sage Gale Force in pvp is often just the added damage, because much pvp takes place in the air, and slow is meaningless in the air. Demon's effect, however, still works in the air, and for added bonus points, if you catch a flying enemy with it mid drop, they're as good as stunned.

In combination with this, the knockback increase on demon bramble is significant because that's an assured extra little bit of time to get off gale force to immobilize them before they reach you. I won't say sage is bad, but... 25% chance to save 30 chi isn't a hugely significant factor. If it was a skill that could save a whole spark or something, I'd give it a lot more consideration, though.


These are my personal opinions, however. For what I've been told is a balanced guide that is not biased by these opinions, I will now shamelessly plug my guide's section on this. I did my best to present both sides, and what might be found appealing about them to people trying to decide without offering any of the full arguments that formed my own decision.

If they died in tiger form, that might explain why. I don't know if it reses with half of max HP or half of current hp--if it was half of normal max and they died in tiger form, then they'd come back with half of regular. I'll make a study on this both before and after I learn Lv 11. I can tell you for sure that the Lv 10 does not tick my own charm when I res.

Kaitica - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Okay I'd like to talk about the poster above me

I have yet to find wood mastery, I believe it's in the forge book clip, so that one is a little harder to get. And crits are crits, how many times have you lost to a crit than someone doing 5% more lol....

10% p def whoop tee doo, Id personally would want to have a chance to avoid heavens flame or stun like a sin, only magic class with tidal protection? Yes please

Absorb souls chi is out of the question... Vengeance yeah sure but, sparking is overrated end game.... The chi you get can be as easily achieved some other way, And demon already has the straight up damage output added, when in tandem with mist it deals even more

Mp usage lol. Be joking, saving less than 200 mp when summoning a pet. Great you healed it for the same cost of demon summon, real accomplishment

If you use cragg correctly, the extra three seconds doesn't matter, his skills will be in cooldown, which is when he shines, so he just gets 3 more melee hits... Which IMO isn't that much helpful for what I use cragg for

Demon gale has higher chance to freeze, slow doesn't matter if they still run, they won't run at all when frozen.

Don't point out all the positives of one side. b:laugh

its not a war hun ^^ bi nice lolb:cute

A note about demon verdant shell: it isn't evasion as in "chance to have opponent miss." It's evasion like a sin's focused mind; it gives a 20% chance to take only one damage from any attack for 15 seconds. Not a game-changing skill, but maybe enough to tip the scales for someone.

I personally am torn between sage and demon still; the two are pretty equal in my eyes right now, and a handful of the skills I would use to make my decision are good either culti. The sage chi skill is amazing while the demon one sucks, but demon has a lot of pros as well.

For me, it goes like this:

Spark -- Sage. 200% more damage plus damage reduce. I love -chan, but...
Chi skill -- Sage
Nature's Vengeance -- torn. Chi is good, even if just a chance; extra damage is nice, even if reduced due to defenses
Swirling mist -- demon. Added damage on a DoT is meh, wood damage increased is
Absorb soul -- pretty even, probably demon because 10 chi is not much.
Gale force -- demon, easily.
Bramble -- demon, as the 1m helps more against melees. You aren't gonna be knocking back distance fighters anyways.
Thicket -- demon. I love the chance to amp, for myself and squad.
BitC -- sage for healing, demon for anything else. Purify is good, albeit unreliable, chi is always useful.
Falling Petals -- demon, hands down.
Resurrect -- demon, but that's preferential there.
Comforting mist -- I don't use this skill much, but demon I guess. Mana at later levels isn't too tough due to yuanxiao.
Three first pets -- depends on what you like, I prefer demon for chi.
Crag -- sage. Three more seconds of damage.
Energy Leech -- sage. Antistun~
Verdant shell -- demon for the evasion (NOT evasion on char screen, evasion like focused mind)
Mastery -- on the fence. Not all your skills are wood, not all your skills can crit. Still deciding here.
Rapid Growth -- I like the reliability of demon's, but technically sage's saves more time.


It may seem like most of my choices are demon, which they are, but I'm still undecided. Some of the major skills I want are better as sage, and some I am still on the fence with.

Just my correction for the shell and my opinion on the skills.

Kaitica - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That in a quick nutshell, they're both pretty equal

Sage gets more chi, 95% exp res, purify Break in the clouds, less mana useage, stronger thicket, more wood damage mastery, more physical defense.

Demon gets more spike damage, more channel, 100% hp res, purify aoe heal, more chi from Break in the clouds, more damage output with spam skill, aoe amp, chance to negate status, more immbol chance w/ gale, and falling petals is 5 minutes.

Ends up with preference, I like demon

Sage and Demon get Purify? Like the cleric type Purify? Also what do you mean by Demon gets AoE heals? pls be specific I am a nub and im also looking to find out whats best sage or demon.

MrMelvin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes both sage and demon get purify, Sage break in the clouds turns into a 25% chance to purify and demon comforting mist turns into an 35% chance to AoE purify along with healing.

Comforting Mist is your AoE heal skill regardless if you are sage or demon. Sage and demon version of skills just add a bonus once you've learnt the skill.

If you want to decide for yourself regarding sage & demon for skills you should look here just select the Mystic section, click a skill and at the bottom you can use a sage or demon button to see what effects each skill will give you. I find its best to decide this way as everyone who goes sage will say sage is best, and everyone who goes demon will say demon is best. Find out which you think is best.

Thanks a lot your post was really helpful!!

Amplifies damage.

Demon thicket = Area of effect amp

thumbs wrote: »

What would Demon Thicket be good for? It's not reliable for aoe grinding if you need to kill most mobs in a limited amount of hits. With 30s cooldown and 25% chance; it wouldn't be great for RB.

Caster Nirvana, using when the BM's HF missed, using in any squad when HF is in cooldown or there is no bm, RB when mobs are left over after the Cragg rampage, Soloing TT's.

A variety of things, get creative.

thumbs wrote: »

What would Demon Thicket be good for? It's not reliable for aoe grinding if you need to kill most mobs in a limited amount of hits. With 30s cooldown and 25% chance; it wouldn't be great for RB.

Well, as Marista has already said, the proc chance is actually higher than what is listed, and I think it might actually be more useful than sage in RB especially when there is no bm present because well, you'll be hitting a lot of mobs, more get procced, leading to those dying faster and making the pull much easier. Also sage would hard have any effect due to the PvP dmg reduction and the opponent's own mdef and really, I don't think the extra dmg is all that needed for PvE or will make that big an impact anyway.

Khiren - Lost City wrote: »

A note about demon verdant shell: it isn't evasion as in "chance to have opponent miss." It's evasion like a sin's focused mind; it gives a 20% chance to take only one damage from any attack for 15 seconds. Not a game-changing skill, but maybe enough to tip the scales for someone.

Actually it works like Tidal Protection where it gives Status Evasion(chance to dodge debuffs), and not like the Focused Mind buffs that they gave some plant summons.