APS Idiots

Olbaze - Sanctuary
Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
edited August 2011 in Assassin
Since I recently got to 100, got my TT99s and Rank 8, I've had to do a lot of pwcalcs and comparisons between the DPS of things. Obviously, getting Nirvana leggings and a Pan Gu Creator are cost-effective choices, because there is obviously no better alternative.

However, what I started wondering was the weapon. I went back and forth between a ton of options. Though, since the resources I have are definitely finite, I cannot just ignore costs. This brings about the question of cost efficiency. And comparing some options, I've come to the conclusion that majority of the sins and BMs out there are complete idiots.

For example, in a BH Abaddon, I saw an assassin with a +10 2x Garnet Gem Barrier Thorn: Nirvana, but he only had Rank 6. According to his own words, the weapon cost him 500m coins. Not only is that a ridiculous price for that weapon, it's also enough to buy Rank 8 about 4 times over.

Similarly, I see people going around with a low refined Barrier Thorn: Nirvana. That pains my heart, because if you compare a Barrier Thorn: Nirvana with Ocean Supreme Dagger and take into account the costs on both ends, you'll be comparing a +10 Ocean Supreme Dagger to a +0 Barrier Thorn: Nirvana. And obviously, the former wins, by a pretty good amount.

Of course, people might argue that it's "planning for the future". Well, that's also not very cost effective. Because really, if you intend to get a +10 refine on that Barrier Thorn: Nirvana, it would be best to NOT spend that 200m and go turn that into enough profit to go straight to +10.

So, anyone got any idea where all of these people with expensive gear (e.g. G13 Nirv dagger) with pathetic refines come from?
I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
Post edited by Olbaze - Sanctuary on
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Comments

  • doodoobrown
    doodoobrown Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    So, anyone got any idea where all of these people with expensive gear (e.g. G13 Nirv dagger) with pathetic refines come from?

    5 aps

    thats why, people dont concern themselves with their damage output, but rather associate their coolness with an interval number, meanwhile not being able to figure out how a rank 8 assassin with 3.33 aps and a +4 ocean dagger is stealing agro from them
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    So, anyone got any idea where all of these people with expensive gear (e.g. G13 Nirv dagger) with pathetic refines come from?

    Like said above, most just look for aps and don't care about their actually dps. From personal experience I know, that it's actually harder to get squads with 2.86 aps sage with r9 then with 4 aps sparked on demon with tt80 daggers. Ofc, that is just about wc squads.

    It's kinda funny how some everything is hyperfocessed on aps, and dph or survivability is totally factored out. I see a lot of sins that work hard on -int stuff to get to 5 aps, then don't have the refines on armor to actually tank/solo things. Or, such low refines on weap that their old rank8 actually outdamages their new weap.

    The gear of a sin on sanc (approximately), that didn't change for at least 3 months : http://pwcalc.com/2b1623db34c7e242
    and no, I didn't forget to put the shards or refines b:shutup I really wonder how someone could get gear like that with those shards and refines b:surrender
  • Pyrostormz - Raging Tide
    Pyrostormz - Raging Tide Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    as much as people focus on aps to a ridiculous degree, and through dps out the window, isnt it kinda our fault....

    i cant say i have been around that long, but i kinda presume the whole rage startd when sins/bms started claiming we were better strictly because of our aps.

    now you can argue that has come back to bite us, because we are expected to be 5aps, regardless of how much better we can be without it

    again, this is just conjecture on my part, because i have not been around that long, but i would suspect thats its partly out fault ( sins as a class, not anyone particular ) that the aps craze is around, and therefore, why it costs so much to get aps
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  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Pyrostormz - Raging Tide wrote: »
    as much as people focus on aps to a ridiculous degree, and through dps out the window, isnt it kinda our fault....

    i cant say i have been around that long, but i kinda presume the whole rage startd when sins/bms started claiming we were better strictly because of our aps.

    now you can argue that has come back to bite us, because we are expected to be 5aps, regardless of how much better we can be without it

    again, this is just conjecture on my part, because i have not been around that long, but i would suspect thats its partly out fault ( sins as a class, not anyone particular ) that the aps craze is around, and therefore, why it costs so much to get aps

    I wouldn't say so.

    There were a few more details to that.

    Firstly, even if we claim that sins are better because of APS, that does not imply that more APS = better. It's the "community" that did that part.

    Secondly, sins are not the best DDs because they get teh best APS, they are the best DDs because they get the best APS plus the best DPH. In other words, they get the best combination for highest DPS. Not to mention that Archers are nowadays shunned even if they are 5 aps because their actual DPS is worse.

    Heck, you don't even need to know math for it to ring some bells. It's just simple logic and for some reason it seems like majority of all people are ignoring it completely.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • doodoobrown
    doodoobrown Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I really wonder how someone could get gear like that with those shards and refines b:surrender

    well I cant explain the refines, but its cause you can practically use the cash shop to buy gear, getting nirvana gear isnt hard at all anymore, if you dont mind spending 200+ million, which with gold at 1.2+ per is not really that hard for the hardcore spenders...

    one thing money cant buy, outright anyways is genesis stones, G11 gems, sure you can buy them from players, but they are not found in abundance, however, rank, and raptures/uncannies are

    hence why u have a bunch of r9 and nv nabs with flawless shards
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The gear of a sin on sanc (approximately), that didn't change for at least 3 months : http://pwcalc.com/2b1623db34c7e242
    and no, I didn't forget to put the shards or refines b:shutup I really wonder how someone could get gear like that with those shards and refines b:surrender
    Was that perchance Warsoul? She's the only female r9 sin I've seen on Sanctuary.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • goatpig
    goatpig Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Im a sage sin, my overall dmg is higher with the nirvana dags compared to rank8 cause of the exponential APS increase. The refines are at +5 atm and im making it +10 by the end of this orb sale.

    Rank8 is better compared to barrier thorn with a demon spark, with all other gear being the same, but not everyone's a demon
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    goatpig wrote: »
    Im a sage sin, my overall dmg is higher with the nirvana dags compared to rank8 cause of the exponential APS increase. The refines are at +5 atm and im making it +10 by the end of this orb sale.

    Rank8 is better compared to barrier thorn with a demon spark, with all other gear being the same, but not everyone's a demon

    ... I'm a sage?

    And from my point of view, I'd HAVE to compare a +0 Barrier Thorn: Nirvana to a +10 Rank 8 with 2x Garnet Gems, because that's what Barrier Thorn: Nirvana would get me on my current weapon. And that comparison tells me that Barrier Thorn: Nirvana is inferior.

    Of course, if you're comparing them while ignoring the cost, such as having funds where the cost is irrelevant or already owning both, then it's a bit different.

    But that still doesn't change that you see tons of people with Barrier Thorn: Nirvana and their refines are downright pathetic. Because if you can afford Barrier Thorn: Nirvana, you can also afford to turn that into affording a +10 Barrier Thorn: Nirvana. Heck, even if you're a complete failure and only make a 1% profit per day, you'll still have enough for the +10 refine in a month.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • goatpig
    goatpig Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Im ignoring cost, making an average of 15m a day just by afk vending makes the cost a little less daunting. And im in no rush for gear

    Just explaining that theres some logic behind particular situations, but with that being said, sometimes what other people do just downright makes no sense
  • Loupu - Harshlands
    Loupu - Harshlands Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

    For example, in a BH Abaddon, I saw an assassin with a +10 2x Garnet Gem Barrier Thorn: Nirvana, but he only had Rank 6. According to his own words, the weapon cost him 500m coins. Not only is that a ridiculous price for that weapon, it's also enough to buy Rank 8 about 4 times over.

    why in the bloody hell would you want to buy r8 instead of nirv dags

    r8 is an alternative choise until you get nirvana cause noone will take you at nirvana runs with hook n thorns
  • Evict - Heavens Tear
    Evict - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,301 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Loupu - Harshlands wrote: »
    why in the bloody hell would you want to buy r8 instead of nirv dags

    r8 is an alternative choise until you get nirvana cause noone will take you at nirvana runs with hook n thorns

    I can't tell if you're trollan or if you're beyond stupid.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dysk is my tasty chimichanga. <3
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    doodoobrown wrote: »
    well I cant explain the refines, but its cause you can practically use the cash shop to buy gear, getting nirvana gear isnt hard at all anymore, if you dont mind spending 200+ million, which with gold at 1.2+ per is not really that hard for the hardcore spenders...

    one thing money cant buy, outright anyways is genesis stones, G11 gems, sure you can buy them from players, but they are not found in abundance, however, rank, and raptures/uncannies are

    hence why u have a bunch of r9 and nv nabs with flawless shards

    For that gear (just considering purely cashshopped), you will have to buy some stuff ingame unless you are so lucky you get all items you want through packs (like 3 script of fate...). I just think it's insanely stupid to have the attack power to get aggro of a majority of players, but not being able to actually take a hit. A blackwing or 1 hit by tyrants aoe will knock out a sin like that.

    It's actually a common problem. A friend who I "helped" getting to 5 aps during 2x (just doing a lot of runs with her), got all the stuff. When I had to leave, she did another run ... and some of the bosses she couldn't tank (tyrant mainly). At least not without a barb to buff.
    Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Was that perchance Warsoul? She's the only female r9 sin I've seen on Sanctuary.

    Actually I've seen a lot of sins with that kind of gear. It isn't Warsoul. Not gonna give any names, but thing with this person is, the gear didn't evolve over the past 2 orb sales. Begging for aggro when you can't tank is something that I just can't understand. Just like putting in flawless garnets into a rank9 weapon.

    Also, Aglophobia (or something like that) is also a r9 sin. She's not a fail one though.
  • VergilSama - Raging Tide
    VergilSama - Raging Tide Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    why buy gears for a very high price when you can farm all the mats you want by doing runs ^^ ?

    i am plaining on getting to 5 aps by farming all my gears even if that means doing 10+ run for only 1 gear at last i will get them at the end :P

    i know finding squads is hard but thats what factions for :)
  • Traz - Dreamweaver
    Traz - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    VergilSama - Raging Tide wrote: »
    why buy gears for a very high price when you can farm all the mats you want by doing runs ^^ ?

    i am plaining on getting to 5 aps by farming all my gears even if that means doing 10+ run for only 1 gear at last i will get them at the end :P

    i know finding squads is hard but thats what factions for :)

    See you in 8 months b:bye
    BladedZero - Sanctuary
    "Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."

    -And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute
  • Pyrostormz - Raging Tide
    Pyrostormz - Raging Tide Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    See you in 8 months b:bye

    nothing wrong with that at all
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  • VergilSama - Raging Tide
    VergilSama - Raging Tide Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    the people you buy the gears from already farmed the items and created the gears to sell it after that so if you work hard for them you wont need that long time to get the items needed .
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Loupu - Harshlands wrote: »
    why in the bloody hell would you want to buy r8 instead of nirv dags

    r8 is an alternative choise until you get nirvana cause noone will take you at nirvana runs with hook n thorns
    He was talking about the r6 vs. r8 chest piece, you idiot, not the daggers.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    VergilSama - Raging Tide wrote: »
    the people you buy the gears from already farmed the items and created the gears to sell it after that so if you work hard for them you wont need that long time to get the items needed .

    Well, even if you get an extremely lucky 1 Rapture per run and you get that Rapture, you're still looking at 100 runs.

    Though realistically, the boss has a 57% chance to drop a Rapture so you should expect to run 100-176 runs of Nirvana.

    And that's assuming you'll find five people willing to run that many runs with you while agreeing that you get any Raptures while they get to split the rest.

    Oh, and after that, you'd have to do the reverse: You get the cannies, they get the raps. And that'd be even harder to convince, since at worst you can get 7 cannies and no raptures. If we say that the worst case is 2 Cannies, then you're looking at 36-125 runs of Nirvana.

    The total comes to 136 - 301 runs of Nirvana for your gear. And this is assuming that you can convince your party about the drops.

    Instead, if you ran it and got the average of 3 cannies and 1 Rapture per run and split that evenly, you'd be looking at about 560 runs.

    So yeah, it's quite a bit away from the "10+ runs" region. Well, if you get lucky and get all the drops, you might get it done in 100 runs. But good luck convincing 5 people to run 100 runs where the aim is to get a single person a nirvana weapon and leggings. For example, take the 3 cannies 1 Rapture average: Now you're looking at the squad getting paid 0.5 cannies per run, which comes to 50k each per run.

    Oh, and btw, since you said you'll be farming it, that means you need the Nirvana dagger and leggings, because you can't farm the tome.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    And comparing some options, I've come to the conclusion that majority of the sins and BMs out there are complete idiots.
    Yeah... I could have told you that a long time ago. You can't actually expect people to know things like DPH and DPS while playing a class that was build to breed failures can you?
  • Nyxyo - Harshlands
    Nyxyo - Harshlands Posts: 233 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    beside obvious more dmg since you hit 5 times per second and not 3 times...you also get a lot of chi back....and you can use it to purify yourself at some boss...or use additional skills...like subsea that is a skill with 30%more dmg and is aoe....i still have a hard time in pve with my rank9 dagger since it sets me at 4 aps...i really miss being 5 aps for pveb:surrender
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Nyxyo - Harshlands wrote: »
    beside obvious more dmg since you hit 5 times per second and not 3 times...you also get a lot of chi back....and you can use it to purify yourself at some boss...or use additional skills...like subsea that is a skill with 30%more dmg and is aoe....i still have a hard time in pve with my rank9 dagger since it sets me at 4 aps...i really miss being 5 aps for pveb:surrender

    *Face palm* You know, he made this thread complaining about "APS idiots", not asking them to come and post here.
  • Nyxyo - Harshlands
    Nyxyo - Harshlands Posts: 233 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    <this idiot make 450 orbs in Coa in 30 min on a single mobs...how many you make ?
    >also same idiot runs tt-3-3 in 3 ppl team...in 40min or so...
    why don't you come teach me how to pve better?
    ohh wait i forgot you are a useless forum troll...sry my bad...next time you bother to reply tell me why i am wrong don't go insult...are enough zulus that do just that...hmm wait you are zulu? lol sry if so again i guess is your job
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Nyxyo - Harshlands wrote: »
    <this idiot make 450 orbs in Coa in 30 min on a single mobs...how many you make ?
    >also same idiot runs tt-3-3 in 3 ppl team...in 40min or so...
    why don't you come teach me how to pve better?
    WOW! That MUST be due to your highly skilled combination of moves and quick reflexes with timing. Why you btching then:
    Nyxyo - Harshlands wrote: »
    i still have a hard time in pve with my rank9 dagger since it sets me at 4 aps...i really miss being 5 aps for pveb:surrender

    Yeah must be soooo hard to PvE at 4 APS R9 +12. You know, it's not like the class can perma spark at 2.86 APS or anything.
  • Nyxyo - Harshlands
    Nyxyo - Harshlands Posts: 233 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    you obvious didn't read my post also i am sure you didn't put foot in 3-3 only seen videos or drops from there...you can't really see how good is 5 aps until you have it... and insult ppl for no reason any idiot can...wait i think you did it alreadyb:laugh

    only reason i went down to 4 aps with 4 rank9 dagger is because in pvp you never really use demon spark....and i wanted best pk dagger....if wasn't that i would have gotten 5 aps+zerk nirvana dagger....what is your aps sorry you pro "sin" ? 0,2?
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Nyxyo - Harshlands wrote: »
    you obvious didn't read my post also i am sure you didn't put foot in 3-3 only seen videos or drops from there...you can't really see how good is 5 aps until you have it... and insult ppl for no reason any idiot can...wait i think you did it alreadyb:laugh


    Yes, I obviously have no idea what 5 APS is like. It's not like my BM's 5 APS or anything.
    Nyxyo - Harshlands wrote: »
    only reason i went down to 4 aps with 4 rank9 dagger is because in pvp you never really use demon spark....and i wanted best pk dagger....if wasn't that i would have gotten 5 aps+zerk nirvana dagger....what is your aps sorry you pro "sin" ? 0,2?

    You don't know why you were called "APS idiot" like the people who OP was complaining about? Because your brain is too small to see anything other than that 5.0 number in your character sheet. You never sat down and actually compared weapons. So the "only reason" you got R9 was for PvP? You actually think that 5 APS 2nd cast with normal zerk out damages 4 APS R9 in PvE with demon spark? I rest my case, APS idiot.
  • Nyxyo - Harshlands
    Nyxyo - Harshlands Posts: 233 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    oh sry you got bm so you know all about sinsb:chuckle
    as a matter of fact one coa event me and jopex got to do same boss ..solo...for 30 min in different rooms..
    i got 450 orbs and joppex got 480 orbs...that's lets say 20-30 sec advance and we both got dagers +!2 ....he has 5 aps +zerk dager....but yea facts means nothing when you are so pro like you are...what was your sin aps again? ever heard of using chi to spark to purify in tt? how could you...since you never been in a higher tt....but i do see you keep on insults proving again...hmm..what was that?
  • Pyrostormz - Raging Tide
    Pyrostormz - Raging Tide Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Nyxyo - Harshlands wrote: »
    oh sry you got bm so you know all about sinsb:chuckle
    as a matter of fact one coa event me and jopex got to do same boss ..solo...for 30 min in different rooms..
    i got 450 orbs and joppex got 480 orbs...that's lets say 20-30 sec advance and we both got dagers +!2 ....he has 5 aps +zerk dager....but yea facts means nothing when you are so pro like you are...what was your sin aps again? ever heard of using chi to spark to purify in tt? how could you...since you never been in a higher tt....but i do see you keep on insults proving again...hmm..what was that?

    sorry, but when you type like this, i automatically deduct 50 points from your IQ
    its like a virtual southern accent 0.o
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  • thumbs
    thumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Pyrostormz - Raging Tide wrote: »
    sorry, but when you type like this, i automatically deduct 50 points from your IQ
    its like a virtual southern accent 0.o

    Anyone with 50 points probably doesn't bother reading it.
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Pyrostormz - Raging Tide wrote: »
    sorry, but when you type like this, i automatically deduct 50 points from your IQ
    its like a virtual southern accent 0.o
    I seconds this.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Nyxyo - Harshlands
    Nyxyo - Harshlands Posts: 233 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Aizza - Harshlands wrote: »
    I have 5aps but seriously thinking of R9 for the PVP aspect and swapping out armors when needed.

    What do you think Nyxyo? A waste or should I just continue to boost the gear I have? [ current ]

    you could get tigers stone in gear and that is best i think for sins since is all about dmg...you will get a nice increase in dmg and heal also... i made my set full vitality stone and while i am not so sorry because i was able do incredible things thanks to such high vitality i know i wouldn't do it againb:surrender

    also you stats don't seem right u might need reset some strength and vitality and move into dexterity unless you have a special reason

    and next step i think is getting a interval tome and then and only then you can think about next dagger

    about rank 9 dagger what i can say ..it is with out a doubt incredibly OP ...way to OP..
    when i got it first time i spent a lot of time in guild base area and killed anybody that come there...any rank 9 you name it ...nobody had a chance....what is sad is that after few days i lost any pleasure of killing ppl...was not pk anymore was execution....and nobody had a chance to kill me so i simply stopped to pkb:cry...

    i never go again on killing spree as i used to and i only kill when guild ask help or in tw...other then that is pointless

    rank 9 dagger has advanced zerk that combined with such a hi critical that sin have will entitle you to regular 4x dmg hit=1hit almost anyone...is almost reliable

    second recast dagger has normal zerk that doesn't activate so often there for is not best choice for pk in my view

    i think in the end will be a judgment call you also need check prices for it ...sorry i have no idea what is cost difference between the 2 daggersb:surrender

    but prolly should get interval tome first ...since every decent sin on server has it is probably good:D

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