APS Idiots

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

@Empu: Ever since I +10 (now +11)'d my r9 dags, I have never equipped my Vana dags ever again, unless it was to gain chi. In other words, it has not been my main DD weapon ever since I +10'd the r9 dags. Even at +3, r9 dags sparked did about the same damage as my +10 g13 vana dags sparked.

Now that I have r9, my G13 +10 2 G11 Garnet'd Barrier Thorn - Nirvana is a weapon I use to gain chi if all chi skills are one cooldown, or I am lazy to the point where I don't feel like using chi skills. >.>

Traz - Dreamweaver

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

@Empu: Ever since I +10 (now +11)'d my r9 dags, I have never equipped my Vana dags ever again, unless it was to gain chi. In other words, it has not been my main DD weapon ever since I +10'd the r9 dags. Even at +3, r9 dags sparked did about the same damage as my +10 g13 vana dags sparked.

Now that I have r9, my G13 +10 2 G11 Garnet'd Barrier Thorn - Nirvana is a weapon I use to gain chi if all chi skills are one cooldown, or I am lazy to the point where I don't feel like using chi skills. >.>

If I had garnet gems and +10 I'd feel the same way, but my G13s are +12 with drakeflames and have been for about 4-5 months. PvE wise I'm good to go just using those. I know your daggers were +10 at the time you made the FC video, but my runs go 35 minutes with these daggers too.

The other part of this would be, and correct me if I'm wrong, G13s +12 and 2 drakes cost the same as r9 +0 with no shards (due to that pesky ring). If you're going to get the ring either way that's fine (I have mine).

My Nirvana runs with 4-5 people, including my wife that's also +12 G13, go just as fast as yours and you had 2 r9 sins. That's a big cost to each of us just to get back to +10 and have the same speed of runs. Now we did do more amping and power dashing back and forth for the both of us and the other two +10s in our squad so maybe it was a matter of working that stuff in, but being 4.0 instead of 5.0 will make that more difficult for your squads. I know you just got them at the time so maybe you needed time to see when was good to amp etc to keep a constant 3 spark the whole way through. I know I had a hard time staying chi'd up when we killed bosses that fast and I am 5.0.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If I had garnet gems and +10 I'd feel the same way, but my G13s are +12 with drakeflames and have been for about 4-5 months. PvE wise I'm good to go just using those. I know your daggers were +10 at the time you made the FC video, but my runs go 35 minutes with these daggers too.

The other part of this would be, and correct me if I'm wrong, G13s +12 and 2 drakes cost the same as r9 +0 with no shards (due to that pesky ring). If you're going to get the ring either way that's fine (I have mine).

My Nirvana runs with 4-5 people, including my wife that's also +12 G13, go just as fast as yours and you had 2 r9 sins. That's a big cost to each of us just to get back to +10 and have the same speed of runs. Now we did do more amping and power dashing back and forth for the both of us and the other two +10s in our squad so maybe it was a matter of working that stuff in, but being 4.0 instead of 5.0 will make that more difficult for your squads. I know you just got them at the time so maybe you needed time to see when was good to amp etc to keep a constant 3 spark the whole way through. I know I had a hard time staying chi'd up when we killed bosses that fast and I am 5.0.

Staying chi'd up is pretty easy with the way I was doing it in the video.

But of course, if I had +12 g12 garnet'd g13 daggers, I wouldn't have gotten r9. But even then, the r9 ring adds a LOT to your damage. I have a faction mate that has the same weapon as you, albeit most of his gear is +10 - +12, and he's a beast. He didn't go r9 dags because of the insane amount of hp he had (14k unbuffed), and because he didn't want to +12 a new dagger. He did get the ring though. Not to mention being 4.0 base allows him to switch out his ornaments to even stronger items, like cube neck/warsong/r9 belt.

I wish I had 14k hp unbuffed

Traz - Dreamweaver

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Staying chi'd up is pretty easy with the way I was doing it in the video.

But of course, if I had +12 g12 garnet'd g13 daggers, I wouldn't have gotten r9. But even then, the r9 ring adds a LOT to your damage. I have a faction mate that has the same weapon as you, albeit most of his gear is +10 - +12, and he's a beast. He didn't go r9 dags because of the insane amount of hp he had (14k unbuffed), and because he didn't want to +12 a new dagger. He did get the ring though. Not to mention being 4.0 base allows him to switch out his ornaments to even stronger items, like cube neck/warsong/r9 belt.

I wish I had 14k hp unbuffed

I have nearly 13k hp unbuffed, and I like the fact I can switch out to my cube neck for TT runs and still be 5.0. Like I said before, max damage isn't always the end all be all to a build. I still want to get r9/G15 for TWs because that still has a very important roll in my sins gameplay. I just need 2 double drops to be bothered to save up about 1.2bil coins.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

4.0 vs 5.0 = 25%
3.33 vs 4.0 = 20.1%
2.86 vs 3.33 = 16.4%
2.5 vs 2.86 = 14.4%

Aps has exponential gain meaning you get more benefit going from a high aps to an even higher aps than you would going from low aps to high aps. Demons have a natural aps advantage, making G13 Barriers somewhat plausable because even though rank 8 out dph's them by 40% at 0 refines but only 8% at level 10 they get the aps boost to make it worth it.

But I keep seeing Sage Sin's go G13 (Sage sins that plan on going Rank 9, or have no plans on ever going G15). If the sage sin has everything but the tome they are 2.5 with Rank 8 or 3.33 with G13. This is a difference of 33% dps from aps, but the dph difference covers the aps difference until +5 or +6 refines, all for about 250 mil cheaper. You could almost get a -int tome for that price.


To top it off... Yesterday I was WCing for 2 randoms for a nirvana squad: 2 aps DD's, pm your class/aps/weapon link pls. I get a BM "I'm 4 or 5.0. Not sure, I need to switch"... okay. And then I get a 3.33 sin. They join the squad, I ask them what weapon they use and they link me Hook and Thorns. I check their armor and they're got the rank 8 plate, don't you have the rank 8 weapon? "Yah, but I'm only 2.86 with it." So? It out dps H&Ts by a toooooon. So I ask them to use their Rank 8 daggers, they equip, and its only +2. *sigh*. The squad asks me to kick them. Then another person sees that our 4.0 BM only has Deicides +1, the squad rages, and I'm asked to kick him too. Both people kicked rage at me for "wasting their time" and I respond that I asked for a weapons link for a reason, but it was the entire squads choice to kick them. I then had to find 2 more DDs.

Empu - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

@Empu: Ever since I +10 (now +11)'d my r9 dags, I have never equipped my Vana dags ever again, unless it was to gain chi. In other words, it has not been my main DD weapon ever since I +10'd the r9 dags. Even at +3, r9 dags sparked did about the same damage as my +10 g13 vana dags sparked.

Now that I have r9, my G13 +10 2 G11 Garnet'd Barrier Thorn - Nirvana is a weapon I use to gain chi if all chi skills are one cooldown, or I am lazy to the point where I don't feel like using chi skills. >.>

b:thanks Ty, started to wonder if I was some miracle player not to have problems with chi at my mere 2.86 aps. As usual, it's more players that never used r9 that think g13 vana is just as good. b:laugh Or I'm just to excited at the sight off 150K+ crits in vana. Now that I got sage subsea, I still want to beat my 197k at last boss.

I'd wonder in what extend 14k hp would be bad with GoF. When buffed, I got around 11k hp, and GoF doesn't really hurt me. The way higher damage on normal hit also makes up for the hp loss. But well, I never felt the use of that kind of hp pve wise so will never shard with vit stones. Pvp wise, there will always be enough ppl that can 1shot you, unless you're full r9.

Just a random comment, but why on earth drakeflame and +12 a g13 vana weap?!

Nyxyo - Harshlands

when gof activate the dmg dealt will give you back the hp lost...is not such a big deal...but don't go hit catapult barbar using invoke that's suicide lol i just sleep them or stun or paralise until invoke goes lol

also i think ppl don't get the benefit chi from 5 aps because they never had 5 aps...is really hard to deny that chi bonus once you have it specially in serious tt runs...go see behemont in 3-3 he purge sometimes 5 times in 10 second and is really cool to be able to spark to give time to cleric to rebuf and heal and block incoming dmg....same goes for emporor or armageddon...really nasty boss....they will stun you or seal or ice you and you waste all spark few times in raw and you really need that heal bp give you when you spark...
when i had 5 aps with hitman legend i was just fine but on 4 aps rank9 sometimes i have to use pots to stay alive....sutra or ig or dew...is fine really but what i am saying is that you cant deny the chi bonus from 5 aps..unless you never really tanked 3-x tt or harpy wraith or other nasty bossb:surrender

Traz - Dreamweaver

Nyxyo - Harshlands wrote: »

when gof activate the dmg dealt will give you back the hp lost...is not such a big deal...but don't go hit catapult barbar using invoke that's suicide lol i just sleep them or stun or paralise until invoke goes lol

also i think ppl don't get the benefit chi from 5 aps because they never had 5 aps...is really hard to deny that chi bonus once you have it specially in serious tt runs...go see behemont in 3-3 he purge sometimes 5 times in 10 second and is really cool to be able to spark to give time to cleric to rebuf and heal and block incoming dmg....same goes for emporor or armageddon...really nasty boss....they will stun you or seal or ice you and you waste all spark few times in raw and you really need that heal bp give you when you spark...
when i had 5 aps with hitman legend i was just fine but on 4 aps rank9 sometimes i have to use pots to stay alive....sutra or ig or dew...is fine really but what i am saying is that you cant deny the chi bonus from 5 aps..unless you never really tanked 3-x tt or harpy wraith or other nasty bossb:surrender

This is what I've been trying to explain that most "but r9 does so much more damage and 4.0 is still permasparked" people can never put the math to in their damage calculations.

Massad - Harshlands

Since all the high lvl sins are here I got a question. I just got off of work and had this thought. Now I haven't slept in a long while, its 4 in the morning and this is probably a bad idea I just don't know it yet....


What would happen if a sin decides to go sage but still tries to outfit with all the same aps gear as a demon sin (or in some cases better gear depending on the player). I know its impossible for a sage to get 5 aps. But wouldn't that keep them at 4 aps still with the bonus of a sage sin?

Has anyone actually tried to do a build like that? If so how did it turn out, if not how do you think it would turn out?

Like I said random thought... and probably a bad one but I am still curious about it myself...


The last time i had one of these ideas I didn't ask anyone and I ended up making an 11k hp (unbuffed) archer (don't ask how that came about)... Before I blow that kinda time and money again I would like some insight b:chuckle

Empu - Sanctuary

Nyxyo - Harshlands wrote: »

when gof activate the dmg dealt will give you back the hp lost...is not such a big deal...but don't go hit catapult barbar using invoke that's suicide lol i just sleep them or stun or paralise until invoke goes lol

also i think ppl don't get the benefit chi from 5 aps because they never had 5 aps...is really hard to deny that chi bonus once you have it specially in serious tt runs...go see behemont in 3-3 he purge sometimes 5 times in 10 second and is really cool to be able to spark to give time to cleric to rebuf and heal and block incoming dmg....same goes for emporor or armageddon...really nasty boss....they will stun you or seal or ice you and you waste all spark few times in raw and you really need that heal bp give you when you spark...
when i had 5 aps with hitman legend i was just fine but on 4 aps rank9 sometimes i have to use pots to stay alive....sutra or ig or dew...is fine really but what i am saying is that you cant deny the chi bonus from 5 aps..unless you never really tanked 3-x tt or harpy wraith or other nasty bossb:surrender

I have rank 9 daggers myself, I tank all 3-x bosses, solo them besides arma-spoon-dude, tank/solo wb I can find alive. I never had 5 aps on sin though, unless you count my crappy -30% req fists. On a class without the huge arsenal of chi skills I could understand your point, but on sin... I have to admit I put more faith in Skai's words then in yours. Also ingame, I never ever heard of someone with rank 9 daggers that swaps them for some vana ones for chi/pot reasons. I guess there's also the difference in playing of a sage or demon sin (I just spark every 15 sec to keep the damage reduction up, so sparks are never wasted. Chi skills will always alow me to keep it up even with barely any attacks cause of sleeps/stuns that miss a lot with sage tidal anyway).

Nyxyo - Harshlands

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I have rank 9 daggers myself, I tank all 3-x bosses, solo them besides arma-spoon-dude, tank/solo wb I can find alive. I never had 5 aps on sin though, unless you count my crappy -30% req fists. On a class without the huge arsenal of chi skills I could understand your point, but on sin... I have to admit I put more faith in Skai's words then in yours. Also ingame, I never ever heard of someone with rank 9 daggers that swaps them for some vana ones for chi/pot reasons. I guess there's also the difference in playing of a sage or demon sin (I just spark every 15 sec to keep the damage reduction up, so sparks are never wasted. Chi skills will always alow me to keep it up even with barely any attacks cause of sleeps/stuns that miss a lot with sage tidal anyway).

i love when we can disagree with out insults unlike other ppl for whom insults have argumentative valueb:chuckleb:laugh

thing is you being sage get 1% more bp that's 50% more heal and that is HUGE also 25% def in spark...you can TANK much easier and demon can KILL much faster...

also i never said i cant do it on 4 aps...i can do it...we learn new way, we adjust ..just said 5 aps sometimes seems easier ....lets add maybe...for demon?

but is a free country do what you like or how some ppl say whatever floats your boatb:victory

Okeano - Harshlands

Nyxyo - Harshlands wrote: »

also i never said i cant do it on 4 aps...i can do it

Yeah I wonder why. Maybe because you are actually doing more damage at 4 with R9, which you still don't seem to understand.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Nyxyo - Harshlands wrote: »

but is a free country do what you like or how some ppl say whatever floats your boatb:victory

Amen brother~

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Massad - Harshlands wrote: »

What would happen if a sin decides to go sage but still tries to outfit with all the same aps gear as a demon sin (or in some cases better gear depending on the player). I know its impossible for a sage to get 5 aps. But wouldn't that keep them at 4 aps still with the bonus of a sage sin?

Has anyone actually tried to do a build like that? If so how did it turn out, if not how do you think it would turn out?

Um... Sage sins and Demon sins go for the exact same gear. The whole "Sage = DPH, Demon = DPS" is a myth of the past.

I do know that there are 4.0 Sage sins, some on my own server.

And what do you mean by "how did it turn out"? Isn't that obvious? It'll be a 4.0 aps Sage sin. Less DPS than a Demon but higher survivability. Though, if you went 4.0 Sage with full DoTs, you'd end up with pretty much the same DPS as a Demon who did not shard DoTs. Well, if there was no Jones Blessing involved, it'd be a difference of <1%. If you include Jones Blessing, the Demon will have ~5% more DPS.

Traz - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um... Sage sins and Demon sins go for the exact same gear. The whole "Sage = DPH, Demon = DPS" is a myth of the past.

I do know that there are 4.0 Sage sins, some on my own server.

And what do you mean by "how did it turn out"? Isn't that obvious? It'll be a 4.0 aps Sage sin. Less DPS than a Demon but higher survivability. Though, if you went 4.0 Sage with full DoTs, you'd end up with pretty much the same DPS as a Demon who did not shard DoTs. Well, if there was no Jones Blessing involved, it'd be a difference of <1%. If you include Jones Blessing, the Demon will have ~5% more DPS.

That's what I'm doing with my sage buffer sin. I figure DoT makes up for the 1 APS difference and the sage spark will make up for not using citrine gems or vit stones. I think i'm going G15 for it though. 3.33 with SS -int and DoT shard probably will do more damage then most 5.0 G13 sins, and I'll have sage bp / sage spark for much better survivability. See I can play devil's advocate, I blame wanting sage bp so bad and getting me to think about it so much. But at least the sage sins can't complain I have no idea what I'm talking about. b:avoid

pwcalc.com/1ae90c4b7b462666

b:cute

Massad - Harshlands

Time to catch some flack... I have decided I will go sage sin for this toon. Seeing as how at last count there are only 12 (sage sins)I think on the harshlands server, I will be one of the few to dare to be different. Messing around on the calculator looking at stat possibities and ecatomb trying to figure out the skills.

What pushed me into this was actually listening to another sin trash talk sages and claiming how much demon was superior... Then one of the few sages on the server ran up said sage was better and sparked. That started a long back and forth of fights, pvp, duels, and chatter in which all but one fight, the sage won. Now I am not saying I will get his same results but only the future will tell.... And if I don't like it there is always the conversion at 100 b:victory

Woundedknee - Heavens Tear

I said to myself 6 months ago i would never roll a sin, however, as you can plainly see i gave into temptaion. This was partly due to the fact my archer was 'no longer needed' in the end game instances...nirvy and the higher end tt's.

I was already at an advantage gear wise with having made most of it for my archer so with the addition of an account stone i had it made...........

and then we come to lvl 100 and the choice in daggers....

For this i did something ive never done in this game and hope never to do again, i followed the APS 'hype' and spent within the region of 220mil coins on stage 1 nirvy daggers but the more and more i look into it, it seems r8 daggers would of suited my needs just fine. I do have only an average refine on my daggers atm but within time i will get them to +10 so perhaps i will not regret my choice in the end.

It realy does pain me to see you people bashing each other over making different choices on build/weps w/e. If we were all the same the world would be a very boreing place indeed.b:bye

Traz - Dreamweaver

Woundedknee - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I said to myself 6 months ago i would never roll a sin, however, as you can plainly see i gave into temptaion. This was partly due to the fact my archer was 'no longer needed' in the end game instances...nirvy and the higher end tt's.

I was already at an advantage gear wise with having made most of it for my archer so with the addition of an account stone i had it made...........

and then we come to lvl 100 and the choice in daggers....

For this i did something ive never done in this game and hope never to do again, i followed the APS 'hype' and spent within the region of 220mil coins on stage 1 nirvy daggers but the more and more i look into it, it seems r8 daggers would of suited my needs just fine. I do have only an average refine on my daggers atm but within time i will get them to +10 so perhaps i will not regret my choice in the end.

It realy does pain me to see you people bashing each other over making different choices on build/weps w/e. If we were all the same the world would be a very boreing place indeed.b:bye

I find 2 things wrong with this observation.

1. You "spent" instead of farmed
2. You can upgrade to G15 and really start having fun before you refine it to +10

TigerLily - Lost City

Assassin forum is slowly turning into archer forum. Loads of nerdy math calculations, rage rage my char can pk yours, DPS v. DPH drama, people with a stick up their ***, PvE story of my life and of course the insults and personal attacks. I like it b:cute

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Woundedknee - Heavens Tear wrote: »

For this i did something ive never done in this game and hope never to do again, i followed the APS 'hype' and spent within the region of 220mil coins on stage 1 nirvy daggers but the more and more i look into it, it seems r8 daggers would of suited my needs just fine. I do have only an average refine on my daggers atm but within time i will get them to +10 so perhaps i will not regret my choice in the end.

Well yes, that's kinda the point I'm making. Assasins have enough DPS to overcome at least a -0.1 disadvantage in interval just with their higher DPH and crit% in comparison to BMs.

And really, if you already have DPS greater than the second place holder, the only reason to increase is convenience and/or ego.

And then there's the whole money issue. I don't have +10 refines and hell yes I'd rather take a +10 R8 dagger and +10 on my G13 helmet over having that -0.1 interval on Barrier Thorn: Nirvana, especially since that'd also tremendously lower my DPS.

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Assassin forum is slowly turning into archer forum. Loads of nerdy math calculations, rage rage my char can pk yours, DPS v. DPH drama, people with a stick up their ***, PvE story of my life and of course the insults and personal attacks. I like it b:cute

I think I might be responsible for the math part. I used to play an archer and I got a thing for math.

Nepanthe - Raging Tide

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Similarly, I see people going around with a low refined Barrier Thorn: Nirvana. That pains my heart, because if you compare a Barrier Thorn: Nirvana with Ocean Supreme Dagger and take into account the costs on both ends, you'll be comparing a +10 Ocean Supreme Dagger to a +0 Barrier Thorn: Nirvana. And obviously, the former wins, by a pretty good amount.

Of course, people might argue that it's "planning for the future". Well, that's also not very cost effective. Because really, if you intend to get a +10 refine on that Barrier Thorn: Nirvana, it would be best to NOT spend that 200m and go turn that into enough profit to go straight to +10

I have to disagree because with rank 8/9 you have to buy it. Either through rep or small 8 rep badges either way you're going to end up spending 72 gold for r8 or 108 for r9 just the rep part. You can get Full nirvana spending money on only repairing your gear. You talk about buying nirvana for 200mil, but you can get nirvana free, maybe not faster, but more cost efficient. Especially on x2 weekends and such. Nirvana keys > buying rep

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Nepanthe - Raging Tide wrote: »

I have to disagree because with rank 8/9 you have to buy it. Either through rep or small 8 rep badges either way you're going to end up spending 72 gold for r8 or 108 for r9 just the rep part. You can get Full nirvana spending money on only repairing your gear. You talk about buying nirvana for 200mil, but you can get nirvana free, maybe not faster, but more cost efficient. Especially on x2 weekends and such. Nirvana keys > buying rep

... And you always have the option of selling those Raptures and Uncannies you have.

And that's the point I was trying to make. I have seen people with weapons that would buy Rank 8 a few times over and yet they run around in Rank 4 or Rank 6 armors.

And last time I checked, you can't farm yourself a +10 refine and 2 Garnet Gems. And yes, I have seen people with those and not have Rank items.

Or have a Tome and not have Rank 8. That, too, isn't farmable.

And no, it's not "free". That's like saying "Gold is free", because you can just buy it with cash.