A more logical solution to 5APS

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2011

and putting aggro reset on every Nirv boss doesn't help the tanks do their job. There is a problem in PvE, sure, but a lot of these problems should be fixed by modifying PvE only. The bosses shouldn't be so ridiculously difficult, but should be interesting to fight to encourage more class-inclusion in squads. Remember when "Twilight 007" quote was a HUGE DEAL because it reset Dimentora's aggro? You have 3-x bosses doing **** without warning and in quick succession. It's not how this game was at all. The bosses themselves need to be different but slower paced and less random, only then can we speak of anything that could lower APS' DD potential. Otherwise you'd just have a lot of wiped squads at the 3-x bosses

tank-healer parties are not obsolete. That's a gross exaggeration. I used to run WBs with one of the best geared sins on my server, and even he needed a barb to share aggro on certain WBs or he couldn't tank it in BB, let alone solo any of that **** without a cleric.

on Armageddon, yes that sin was often the last one standing when all of us wiped and the boss buffed and he survived long enough to kill the boss, but he also had +10-12 gear, and for the majority of the time he had to be in BB (often w/ 2nd cleric healing/purifying the BBing cleric). The last few seconds he lived on immunities and pills but at no time did we ever think a sin could just waltz up to Arma and solo that **** with Blood Paint. That's crazy thinking is what that is. Let's put it this way, most bosses that you can charm tank you can solo with Blood Paint. That is all.

Sparc - Harshlands · February 2011

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Being surprised from the comments that came with my suggestion as a solution to all this "5aps is overpowered" deal, I decided to make a thread about it to catch people's eyes (mainly the GMs that will pass it on to the devs?).

Please note, this indeed another thread relating to 5aps; please try not to troll too much in here.

As I've stated in the most recent of 5 APS solution threads, my solution I suggested to "fix" 5 APS, rather than to nerf it down to a lower cap, is to implement a simple check on a person's APS, and based on the amount, the accuracy will be nerfed to a certain extent, based on the weapon.

In simple proportional terms: As APS increases, accuracy decreases. A real life example can be applied to this. Unless you're extremely skilled, the faster you throw.. let's say darts at a dartboard, the lesser the chance of you hitting bullseye, or the general area. 5 throws per second to me = darts all over the wall.

I.E. Fists and claws would have a slower rate of decrease in accuracy with respect to APS, while daggers, which are mainly dex-based, will have a higher rate of decreases in accuracy.

This should be implemented so that with 5 APS on either claws, fists, or daggers, the accuracy would be relatively in the same range, regardless of dex. I'm saying this because strength boosts fists/claws' damage output while dexterity increases daggers'.

And in the other thread, people suggested using rings that add 50% accuracy, such as Misty Forest Rings, Sign of Frost: Chaos, or the R9 ring, to counter the decrease in accuracy. And as another person said in said thread, a 50% increase on a small amount of accuracy is still a small amount of accuracy.

I think this would work out as a pretty decent balance. Missing hits still gains you chi, meaning permaspark is still there, but it also balances the damage output such that 5aps isn't doing all the damage, lower aps people still hit often, non-aps based people won't be affected much at all, and mage classes wouldn't be affected.

Let me know what you all think.

b:bye

What you're talking about is much more complex. It would be simple for the developers to go in and change the APS cap from 5 to whatever. You're talking about changing too many things!

Sparc - Harshlands · February 2011

Kaste - Sanctuary wrote: »

Then think about all of them who got it for hundreds of dollars. What are they going to say?

Honestly, who cares. I am one of the many who side with thinking this 5.0 APS "HYPE" was NOT part of what the devs had in mind. Therefore that would make it an exploit. Exploiting the game is also bannable, so therefore it doesn't matter if you got it by in game grinding or if you cash shopped $10,000; if after looking into the matter it is deemed an exploit, there are a few options. Ban em all or change the limitation (or both). If after the issue is 'looked into' they deem it to be acceptable, then so be it. However that is not really for us PLAYERS to decide. Sure we can have an opinion, or "take a side" (personally I'm against the APS cap being 5.0) but in the end nothing we have to say or think matters. It's all up to the people that make and run the game to decide!

Alderamin - Dreamweaver · February 2011

the problem, is that they do not invite the classes in magic nirvana, right?

indecent proposal XD

require, to have a complete team of all classes, xd

b:chuckle

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · February 2011

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

stoopid Ast is saying this because Asty-squads can take a TT/Nirv boss to at least 1/2 during a spark. The rest of you can rot in 3-3/Nirv for all Ast cares

If you throw in some coordinated debuffs and have a group of highly refined casters lay down some sparked ultis they are capable of very high burst damage as well. It's only sustained dps where casters fall far behind.

Demon spark is clearly designed for a high burst of damage but 5.0 permaspark has turned it into sustained damage.

anwynd · February 2011

I kind of like the OPs suggestion and alot of others in this but before anything happens like lowering the aps cap or anything else the bosses tht were suppose to "fix" the problem should be changed bck to normal. All the aps people QQing about not wnting change think about this if the devs dont do something to properly correct there "mistake" the game will die and all tht money you spent wont be worth ****. So instead of QQing tht it should stay the way it is we should all stop being greedy and find methods tht would balance but not totally **** over certian classes. With any change theres allways gonna be moaning and groaning about it nothing can change tht like everyone says you cant satisfy everyone. But thts still not an excuse to let this aps perma sparking **** to go on. Yes it has helped lower mat prices and other stuff related but at what cost if this is not properly corrected the game will die and those lower mat prices wont mean a dam thing. Id rather have higher mat prices in exchange for the game living longer. srry for writing this much just had to get some **** off my chest and also before anyone says im one of the caster or none aps QQers ive got 2 5aps toons so what ever changes will affect me to.

Sparc - Harshlands · February 2011

anwynd wrote: »

I kind of like the OPs suggestion and alot of others in this but before anything happens like lowering the aps cap or anything else the bosses tht were suppose to "fix" the problem should be changed bck to normal. All the aps people QQing about not wnting change think about this if the devs dont do something to properly correct there "mistake" the game will die and all tht money you spent wont be worth ****. So instead of QQing tht it should stay the way it is we should all stop being greedy and find methods tht would balance but not totally **** over certian classes. With any change theres allways gonna be moaning and groaning about it nothing can change tht like everyone says you cant satisfy everyone. But thts still not an excuse to let this aps perma sparking **** to go on. Yes it has helped lower mat prices and other stuff related but at what cost if this is not properly corrected the game will die and those lower mat prices wont mean a dam thing. Id rather have higher mat prices in exchange for the game living longer. srry for writing this much just had to get some **** off my chest and also before anyone says im one of the caster or none aps QQers ive got 2 5aps toons so what ever changes will affect me to.

Yea I think other people would be really ignorant if they didn't realize that this current "APS HYPE" is going to TOTALLY RUIN the game regardless if they have a 5.0 APS char themselves or not...

Empu - Sanctuary · February 2011

I think there is only 1 way to really solve the aps problem. I've seen a lot of suggestions to bring balance back (like accuracy going down as aps goes up like OP suggests, seen same kind of thing with damage going down as aps goes up, make mag classes hit harder, etc). I think none of those suggestions will bring anywhere, simply cause it will outbalance another aspect of the game. What would happen in pvp if aps would lower your accuracy? What would happen if you up wizzies attack?

I only see 1 solution, and that is to get to the heart of the problem : -interval. That is how insane aps is obtained, cause it adds exponentially. APS is based on -0.05 gaps between the hits. If they change that to get a function like channeling, with -0.05 interval becoming +5% aps (and have it stack like -channel, so 3 times 5% is aps x 1.15, and not aps x 1.05^3). De facto it will drasticly lower max aps attainable and limit the damage gap between casters and melees, but I see 3 other adventages over solutions like 30sec cd on spark and nerfing aps to 3max.
- 5% will equally favor any phys att weap, so archers will have better damage with bow then with fists (as it's supposed to be imo), and might bring sword and pole bms back.
- ppl who got a lot of aps will still have an extra adventage over their investment.
- it won't be as easily by passed as limiting to 3 aps, which would only favor sins above anyone else (3 aps with demon chill and still perma spark with skills).

I can't remember who initially lauched this idea, but it's the best I've seen till now (was brought up a long time ago in some post on bm forums I'm not going to look up). But ofc, there is always something to say for those who worked hard or paid a lot to be op. The damage is done, can't turn it back without making those guys mad (and they would be right to be really mad). Nevertheless, the aps-mania is taking epic proportions, when ppl kick a sage sin with +10 r8 daggers (2.86 aps) for some demon sin with TT80 hook and thorn (probably 3.33 aps) :P

anwynd · February 2011

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think there is only 1 way to really solve the aps problem. I've seen a lot of suggestions to bring balance back (like accuracy going down as aps goes up like OP suggests, seen same kind of thing with damage going down as aps goes up, make mag classes hit harder, etc). I think none of those suggestions will bring anywhere, simply cause it will outbalance another aspect of the game. What would happen in pvp if aps would lower your accuracy? What would happen if you up wizzies attack?

I only see 1 solution, and that is to get to the heart of the problem : -interval. That is how insane aps is obtained, cause it adds exponentially. APS is based on -0.05 gaps between the hits. If they change that to get a function like channeling, with -0.05 interval becoming +5% aps (and have it stack like -channel, so 3 times 5% is aps x 1.15, and not aps x 1.05^3). De facto it will drasticly lower max aps attainable and limit the damage gap between casters and melees, but I see 3 other adventages over solutions like 30sec cd on spark and nerfing aps to 3max.
- 5% will equally favor any phys att weap, so archers will have better damage with bow then with fists (as it's supposed to be imo), and might bring sword and pole bms back.
- ppl who got a lot of aps will still have an extra adventage over their investment.
- it won't be as easily by passed as limiting to 3 aps, which would only favor sins above anyone else (3 aps with demon chill and still perma spark with skills).

I can't remember who initially lauched this idea, but it's the best I've seen till now (was brought up a long time ago in some post on bm forums I'm not going to look up). But ofc, there is always something to say for those who worked hard or paid a lot to be op. The damage is done, can't turn it back without making those guys mad (and they would be right to be really mad). Nevertheless, the aps-mania is taking epic proportions, when ppl kick a sage sin with +10 r8 daggers (2.86 aps) for some demon sin with TT80 hook and thorn (probably 3.33 aps) :P

What i think should be done if the accuracy idea is implemented is tht the accuracy only goes down when atking mobs and only mobs if you atk a player i think your accuracy shouldnt change otherwise if the accuracy idea did work in pvp it would **** alot of classes.

About changing aps to how chan is imo a brilliant and fair solution you still get your money's worth sense your aps will still be better then most but sense i suck at math and how changing it to how chan is and how it affects aps ill leave tht to the smart peoples and try to understand the math they postb:faint.

Sazzora - Harshlands · February 2011

How about combining some of these ideas without individually nerfing them so much?

like:

- Cap aps at 4.0
- Lower chi gain from using fists/daggers with 1/hit (from 5 to 4 or whatever it is now?)
- Bloodpaint from 2% to ~1.5-1.8% (and/or make it like 1% or something for other classes than sins)
- Put a 20-30sec cd on demon/sage spark (don't really like this one tho)

would make high aps chars a bit less op in pve without **** them to much imo.

Or just cap aps at 3.33.
QQ about money invested in your aps char? Meh you've probably farmed back all those money already so who cares and it's not like other classes invested to on their chars and now feels completely useless.

Aquilez - Sanctuary · February 2011

dunno if someone sugested this, but wouldnt making spark cooldown 25-30 seconds fix it too?

Lady_Seolfor - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Just give wizzies a heaven's flame like spell, or some party defensive
buffs. Something that really makes a difference

And let some bosses buff themself with extremly high defenses, so it becomes desirable to bring a veno for debuffing/purging.

Clerics are good enough as it is i think. They can heal and ressurrect, reduce damage taken with Blue Ball, pretty useful to take along.

Barbs.. uhm.. if we give them better tanking skill, they would only complain about repair costs. Perhaps some barb rank gear that pulls
aggro by itself.

They are also quite capable of getting high aps too, so those who feel useless as tanks, can always go DD.

It is much better to give something to players, rather then take away.

Elviron - Dreamweaver · February 2011

OK Question time

Say APS is nerfed and everything, how would it solve the current problems?

1.) Will Magic DDs be more preferred in random TTs/nirvana/BH/etc? (People get squads with friends/factionmates already so class isnt an issue there). How many people are comfortable with random instance squads? IMO they always had the same problem pre-aps world.

2.) Will this solve the lack of barbs issue for random squads? Many of the APS tanks may not be able to tank anymore so that option is going to out. Now with the rise in barbs, the demand for barbs in squad has also increased to a greater degree. Wouldnt this lead us back to the same situation we have now or for that matter a bigger issue?

As I ask again, given the fact that most people stick to friends/faction driven squads, will nerfing APS really solve the current lack of barbs for random squads? From my point of view, it will only make worse since it would reducing the number of alternate tanks.

Whats your take on this?

LeFEMME - Lost City · February 2011

So, I'm going tell you how to finish with this drama!! xD

1 - BP restricted to Sin - So, BP working only in SINS....
2 - Pees are allow to hit 5/aps, but only in mobs - so, BLOCK auto-attack on PvPs ..

b:cuteb:cuteb:cute

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver · February 2011

LeFEMME - Lost City wrote: »

So, I'm going tell you how to finish with this drama!! xD

1 - BP restricted to Sin - So, BP working only in SINS....
2 - Pees are allow to hit 5/aps, but only in mobs - so, BLOCK auto-attack on PvPs ..

b:cuteb:cuteb:cute

ew comic sans

Xarathox - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »

idk if you are trolling but
you hit probably up to 10times per spark even less if you just use skills...
while 5aps will hit ~50times...

there IS a problem...
it startet when devs made tank-healer partyplay obsolete due to bloodpaint and permasparked/5aps...

No I'm not trolling. I'm just getting tired of morons like you who suggest **** ideas, and ***** and moan about how aps is so game breaking that it's stopping you from being lazy as hell.

Lazy **** people are retardedly lazy. So **** all of you whiney *******.

Yulk_owns - Lost City · February 2011

Why don't you guys get it through your heads that APS is USELESS without spark? I bet them noobs would have fun with repair bills if they don't get chi from normal attacks and spark burst removed (all of them)

@ Sazzora lol at that, nerfing fists/claws/dagger's chi gain? Why not just nerf chi gain from normal attack on all classes and gear to no chi for normal attack? Makes a lot more sense

Xarathox - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Yulk_owns - Lost City wrote: »

Why don't you guys get it through your heads that APS is USELESS without spark? I bet them noobs would have fun with repair bills if they don't get chi from normal attacks and spark burst removed (all of them)

@ Sazzora lol at that, nerfing fists/claws/dagger's chi gain? Why not just nerf chi gain from normal attack on all classes and gear to no chi for normal attack? Makes a lot more sense

Then skills like Flesh Ream, a Barbs essential skill at taking aggro, becomes absolutely useless.

SilverCleric - Lost City · February 2011

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

OK Question time

Say APS is nerfed and everything, how would it solve the current problems?

1.) Will Magic DDs be more preferred in random TTs/nirvana/BH/etc? (People get squads with friends/factionmates already so class isnt an issue there). How many people are comfortable with random instance squads? IMO they always had the same problem pre-aps world.

2.) Will this solve the lack of barbs issue for random squads? Many of the APS tanks may not be able to tank anymore so that option is going to out. Now with the rise in barbs, the demand for barbs in squad has also increased to a greater degree. Wouldnt this lead us back to the same situation we have now or for that matter a bigger issue?

As I ask again, given the fact that most people stick to friends/faction driven squads, will nerfing APS really solve the current lack of barbs for random squads? From my point of view, it will only make worse since it would reducing the number of alternate tanks.

Whats your take on this?

Yes, friends/factions will be helpful and all but its not a great reason why 5aps should stay, since sometimes your faction won't be able to help you since they might be busy helping other faction members or afk and etc. And some people might not have enough friends or not have any friends to help them with BH/TT/Narvna... so they are forced to join a random squad and the person might be rejected for a 5aps class or something. So you can't always rely on friends and faction for everything.

So in your case its bad ether way....

Yulk_owns - Lost City · February 2011

Xarathox - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Then skills like Flesh Ream, a Barbs essential skill at taking aggro, becomes absolutely useless.

Lol, you can get chi from surf impact and frighten and alacrity you know.... I never really gained chi from normal attacks on my barbs anyway.

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2011

SilverCleric - Lost City wrote: »

Yes, friends/factions will be helpful and all but its not a great reason why 5aps should stay, since sometimes your faction won't be able to help you since they might be busy helping other faction members or afk and etc. And some people might not have enough friends or not have any friends to help them with BH/TT/Narvna... so they are forced to join a random squad and the person might be rejected for a 5aps class or something. So you can't always rely on friends and faction for everything.

So in your case its bad ether way....

Oh look! Another pre-endgame complainer who thinks he knows what he's talking about!

Yes, friends/factions will be helpful and all AND it's a great reason why 5aps should stay! A high DD would not care so much about helping a faction mate who does not output a lot of DD, but when you have them nerfed due to say, some APS nerf, people would be much less inclined to help you because having a good non-caster DD would be that much more important. Don't you get it? 3-x TT squads can take a wizard or veno friend because perma-spark tanks can take the bosses out quickly anyways. Should this be nerfed, casters would be a much larger burden on the squad, thus squads would get even more exclusive.

Market for Nirvana is heavily based in APS. There is a demand for first cast daggers and second cast leggings PRECISELY because it lets people reach 5.0. With a nerf on APS, where is your demand for Nirvana? Who would put up a catshop buying crystals? You seem to believe that non-APS DDs can finally farm Nirvana with APS nerfed, but I'm predicting otherwise. FEW, FEWER casters than now would farm Nirvana because demand for it would go down the drain. Unc prices on Sanctuary has already dipped twice this week. You know why? Who would want to buy crystals when they can buy cheap rank? Cheap rank8 weapons that have only about 100 weapon damage less than Nirvana Second Cast at +10 refine?? Cheap rank9 that almost costs the same especially with cheaper gold from lack of packs?? Remember that Rank9 vs Nirvana cost calculation I made? Where R9 excluding the belt was less than 100m more than Nirvana second cast? Anyone? That was assuming gold was at 850k. Now it's at 700k, GG.

YamiNoSora - Dreamweaver · March 2011

Will someone PLEASE explain what 5aps is??? I'm so tired of people using acronyms...I have to deal with too many in real life as it is.

honeyh2710 · March 2011

YamiNoSora - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Will someone PLEASE explain what 5aps is??? I'm so tired of people using acronyms...I have to deal with too many in real life as it is.

5 attacks per secondb:bye

SashaGray - Heavens Tear · March 2011

YamiNoSora - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Will someone PLEASE explain what 5aps is??? I'm so tired of people using acronyms...I have to deal with too many in real life as it is.

the saddest part is since you are level 61 you dont have lvl 11 res, so this topic lost exp, QQ

elbeano · March 2011

i dont see why people QQ about mag classes being weaker, ive been on some runs with high aps DD where the wizard gets aggro cos he hits so hard o.o and honestly those with 5.0 aps either payed for it or worked their asses off grinding to earn it, taking it away cos some noobs who want to feel better about themslelves when they get aggro would be stupid. with the rank sale alot more people hit much harder than they used to, if people gonna cry about 5 aps, why not cry about r9 instead. 5 aps isnt too helpful in pk whereas a r9 person can 1 shot most normal players >.> really i think people make too big of a deal about it. no matter what you say theres always gonna be people who are OP. deal with it or QQ in the corner where its not bothereing everyone else so we can get on with our lives

_Skai_ - Raging Tide · March 2011

:O my post is still here.

I'm starting to like APS now.

LordGrimmjow - Dreamweaver · March 2011

if you ask me i see a way for the dev. to fix this very fast and easy
i like to say iam aps bm my self.. so ppl know

i think aps should be caped it a 4 if you ask me....
and yes barbs should have better aggro skills
and about caster if you make channel better or magic damage bigger caster would rule PvP to much.. already more then it is now... rank 8 caster can 1shot lvl 100 bm's and sin...i tryed that in last TW

what i think they should about caster is make the magic damage vs. PvE maybe like 20% higher
also make the chi gain when useing skills higher(on PvE only).. if caster would gain more chi when caster on a PvE they could spark more and get closer to 5aps on mobs/boss.. and this way more would take caster in squad for TT3-x and Nirvana... but nerfing aps with like 30sec's cooldown or less chi i dont think is a good idea.. i think they would OP the caster vs. PvE only.. it would balence it a bit more

theheck0 · July 2011

I will be not playing till the next expansion (we are on genesis atm) if they say they will fix ALL unbalance (not just aps) then I return to playing I know you dont care but IJS b:pleased and this doesn't hurt to me there's a lot of mmorpg's there If I got to leave this I will with no problem b:bye

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · July 2011

^ Nice necro.

They won't "fix" it, so probably best to find another game as the threat of quitting doesn't concern them.

Hideori - Lost City · July 2011

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

In simple proportional terms: As APS increases, accuracy decreases. A real life example can be applied to this. Unless you're extremely skilled, the faster you throw.. let's say darts at a dartboard, the lesser the chance of you hitting bullseye, or the general area. 5 throws per second to me = darts all over the wall.

if you looking for logic, then nobody in rl can hit 5 aps (2-3 hits per second is limit in rl). but believe me karate, muaythai, box etc fighters have perfect accuracy. perfect no mater how much aps they do.

I would say 5aps is too much of fantasy. no way human could hit so fast. so I would like to remove 5aps, but in that case melee classes would be joke. anyway everything is joke since OP fishes showed up. this game cannot be worse than it is now.

A more logical solution to 5APS

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