A more logical solution to 5APS

zizoun

LeFEMME - Lost City wrote: »

What? -chan for mages n others? NO WAY! Better nerfed APS!!! I had a experience with "no time chan" mages n cleric .... n the result u can see here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gYPCpr4Tqk

b:shockedb:shockedb:shockedb:shocked

dude, make some sense please...

You post a video of a private brazilian server with totally no balance on the stats of the items and you think they're gonna do the same here if the channel would be like 5aps?

Maths are there for a reason, if in a second a 5aps char makes 5 attacks of x damage, then mage classes can make that x damage in 1 second balancing the channeling of skills with their dmg.
Is a simple thing that developers can fix, nothing to do with stupid unbalanced things from private servers lol

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote:

There's a reason why casters excel in PvP, because they're long ranged, whereas melees are stuck fighting from a 5-10 meter radius. If you want all classes to balanced, then melees should be balanced so they can attack from 30 meters away too. /faillogic

Faillogic from you too, you have PvP with sins on stealth, 5aps, stunlock and they're not stuck in a 5-10 meter radious. Archers get's benefit for -int gear also and they can use bows (wow bows are for archers, and not claws, amazing) thats an attack from more than 30 meters away.
The only ones who don't get even close are mage classes...

budi66

Ruxal - Harshlands wrote: »

1) Increase the threat/agro generation of Barb skills.
2) Nerf the chi gain of normal physical attacks.
3) Decrease the magic defense/resistance of boss mobs
4) Increase the hp of boss mobs
5) Have a mix of both strong physical and magical attack bosses in all instances
6) In instances where there groups of mobs e.g. parts of fc put a mob capable of detecting stealthed sins. (could as well put this one in here though its not aps related)

This will kill the nonaps people.

LeFEMME - Lost City

zizoun wrote: »

dude, make some sense please...

You post a video of a private brazilian server with totally no balance on the stats of the items and you think they're gonna do the same here if the channel would be like 5aps?

Maths are there for a reason, if in a second a 5aps char makes 5 attacks of x damage, then mage classes can make that x damage in 1 second balancing the channeling of skills with their dmg.
Is a simple thing that developers can fix, nothing to do with stupid unbalanced things from private servers lol

Totally no balance? wohh doesn't it sound like pwi now? I 've just tried to show that if pwe -chan will be a bad thing too.( ....not so drastically like my video)

so better neferd...that's imo.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

I didn't mean to start a flame war b:surrender

But I guess that cannot be undone.

TheDan said the perfect argument for this in terms of PvE, and I can see how fixing only one thing only leads to another thing that needs tweaking.

In case example, my solution would lead to needing to tweak agro mechanisms which would then have to lead to the suggestions Ruxal suggested.

I'm impartial for which side I'm on, as I do not like taking sides in this forever-long debate. But I can assure everyone that I'm just looking for a way to balance DPS throughout the classes. I'm an 83 sin eventually aiming for 5aps myself, but since I am this level at this time, I still have time to choose between sage and demon myself. I'm hoping a solution or some tweak to APS will come with this expansion. To either confirm or not the APS rumors that have spread since then.

Either way, if they don't nerf APS in some shape, way, or form, then I'm probably going demon. Otherwise I would love sage b:dirty


I guess only time will tell. I hoped my suggestion for a solution would have helped. But then again I just created another aps thread. Thank you everyone for posting, and please do try to keep the arguments and trolling at a low. b:thanks

SilversMoon - Heavens Tear

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

These threads are so stupid; asking for balance between different classes should NEVER happen. Just quit trying to balance what shouldn't be balanced. That destroys the uniqueness and point of having different classes. Each class excels in a different category.

There's a reason why casters excel in PvP, because they're long ranged, whereas melees are stuck fighting from a 5-10 meter radius. If you want all classes to balanced, then melees should be balanced so they can attack from 30 meters away too. /faillogic

There's also a reason why melees are supposed to excel in DPS in PvE; so they can be the tanks. I fail to see the logic behind letting robes be "balanced" in the DPS department, and letting them pull aggro from the tanks that should be tanking world bosses, TT bosses, etc. If you ask for balanced DPS, then you better be prepared to be the tanker and survive hits of 5K + on HA, about 10K+ on AA. Aha yeah, that's smart.

So in short, stop moaning about balance that should never happen; casters are better in pvp, melees are better for pve... There's logistical reasons why it should stay that way. Go roll a farming character for PvE, and PvP on a caster character. That's how it was meant to be.

Unless you're trying to say, this game mechanics were fictioned by a god.
Then it is not perfect, and there will always be room for improvement.
So long as ppl are willing to suggest such. That's the idea of proposing a suggestion and supposedly, discussing it.

Constructive civilized comments, that's what it's called.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

@zizoun
Aizen Style: When were you under the impression that claws/fists were not for archers? b:chuckle

Weapons say otherwise
Skills say otherwise
Experience says otherwise
Practice says otherwise

In short: PW says otherwise.

Lets see what nerfing aps would bring to the table

Pros

---

1.) Every person who has a thing against aps is satisfied

Cons

---

1.) Majority APS chars RQ (Majority of your high lvl sins, BMs, archers, Barbs who invested thousands in gear). Given the number of APS chars around, this is like a big loss in playerbase for PW.
2.) Your instance farming capability, as a caster, has no change whatsoever. If any, it only became harder.
3.) TT/nirvana mats are double or triple the current cost. Congrats!!!
4.) Finding tanks is much harder now since you can only look for Barbs. Those other alternate tanks which did it using their perma spark and high DPS are no longer there.
5.) Barbs are even more demanding now since they know you cant get any other class to tank your bosses.
6.) Barb population might increase a little bit given the demand but then again most new players would avoid it given the boring gameplay.

2) Nerf the chi gain of normal physical attacks.
3) Decrease the magic defense/resistance of boss mobs
4) Increase the hp of boss mobs
5) Have a mix of both strong physical and magical attack bosses in all instances

I think PW somewhat tried this with the TT3-x bosses. Look where it got us.

Given the pros and cons, I say leave it as is and find other alternatives.

I would say the same irrespective of whether I had 5.0 aps or not.


Even though I pay attention to it, I never understood the whole aggro holding concept of PW to begin with. I mean whats the point of having all this DPS capability if the supposed tanking class lacks the capability to scale up to it?

TheDan - Sanctuary

zizoun wrote: »

Faillogic from you too, you have PvP with sins on stealth, 5aps, stunlock and they're not stuck in a 5-10 meter radious. Archers get's benefit for -int gear also and they can use bows (wow bows are for archers, and not claws, amazing) thats an attack from more than 30 meters away.
The only ones who don't get even close are mage classes...

Do you even know what you're talking about? Pvp is not limited to 1v1, when you leave SZ, expect to be ganked. Sins are pretty much a non factor in mass pvp. Long range casters or archers get the best aoe dph, capable of taking out entire squads. You see mostly long ranged classes most effective for dd teams in tw. Sins are good solo pvpers, but I don't see them as effective in mass pvp/tw. Archers fall under the category of long range dd, which is non-melee, but casters counter melee the most effectively from magical aoes.

SilversMoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Unless you're trying to say, this game mechanics were fictioned by a god.b:angry
Then it is not perfect, and there will always be room for improvement.
So long as ppl are willing to suggest such. That's the idea of proposing a suggestion and supposedly, discussing it.

Constructive civilized comments, that's what it's called.

No, I'm not suggesting the mechanics were formulated bt a god, just simply stating melees are meant to be unique to casters. Dps and survivability differences were meant to be how it is just based off standard class roles, aka melees tanking.

LeiMai - Raging Tide

Has anyone considered the legal issues that could arise for PWI if they nerf APS? You have to admit, it isn't cheap whether it was pre-rank sale or post-rank sale. People spend their real hard earned money on this game because they want something specific, in this case they want 5APS. Suddenly that 5APS is worthless, wouldn't you be furious if you're one of those heavy heavy cash shoppers? You can't give people something then take it away.

Barbarian aggro skills need a boost. Maybe they need some more -int gears available around end game, maybe through rank armor to compete with the other melee classes.

I can easily see how increasing -chan would hurt PvP/TW. As if arcanes weren't scary enough, now they can do it instantly? How often do you hear about assassins one hitting a large group of people? 5aps doesn't make you any less squishy. If anything it could make you more squishy, as you are wearing gear just for the -int it gives instead of wearing something for better defences.

The problem is the players as much as anything. APS doesn't make you god. Yes, it can give you higher DPS. But you can also be sacrificing DPS just for higher APS. Are you going to tell me you would turn a sin away from your squad for having only 2.86aps because they use R9 daggers? They'll out DPS higher APS people!

Even now, I'm sage and I can out DPS people with higher APS than me. Are you going to go and pick one of them over me for Nirvana because you base everything on APS?

Yes APS is one path to being epic. But there are people who focus so much on APS that it makes them weaker. You need to learn to play your class no matter which it is. And personally, I'd squad a skilled Psychic, Veno, Wizard or Cleric that knows what they are doing over an idiot with 5APS any day.

SilversMoon - Heavens Tear

LeiMai - Raging Tide wrote: »

Has anyone considered the legal issues that could arise for PWI if they nerf APS? You have to admit, it isn't cheap whether it was pre-rank sale or post-rank sale. People spend their real hard earned money on this game because they want something specific, in this case they want 5APS. Suddenly that 5APS is worthless, wouldn't you be furious if you're one of those heavy heavy cash shoppers? You can't give people something then take it away.

Uhh, not exactly. I don't know about Pw, but I know for a fact,
Any public service organization, similar in it's services to this one. When it comes to it's contracts, the terms and rights you "supposedly" read and agree to, when you first register.
They almost always specify that the owners of the service have every right to alter, change, substitute or do what ever the hell they want to it, without taking permission or any legal dilemmas taking place.
They don't really have to lean on these legal lines. But if they ever do, this gives them the absolute right to do so, cuz in the end of the day, it's a legal business.

TigerLily - Lost City

LeiMai - Raging Tide wrote: »

Has anyone considered the legal issues that could arise for PWI if they nerf APS? You have to admit, it isn't cheap whether it was pre-rank sale or post-rank sale. People spend their real hard earned money on this game because they want something specific, in this case they want 5APS. Suddenly that 5APS is worthless, wouldn't you be furious if you're one of those heavy heavy cash shoppers? You can't give people something then take it away.

.

Pretty sure they can do what ever they want since we all signed the Terms of Service.

However nerfing APS would be kinda like nerfing attack levels to lets say +50. Everyone that spent a fortune on R9 to get 80-100+ attack lvls gets screwed and would ask for their money back of course lol. Capping aps at 3.33 or whatever would be the same thing since people charged a fortune to get Love up and Down/cloak/pants etc. Or they spent over a year farming coins for all of it.

Its a god way to **** of old and loyal PWI-players b:surrender.

Traz - Dreamweaver

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Pretty sure they can do what ever they want since we all signed the Terms of Service.

However nerfing APS would be kinda like nerfing attack levels to lets say +50. Everyone that spent a fortune on R9 to get 80-100+ attack lvls gets screwed and would ask for their money back of course lol. Capping aps at 3.33 or whatever would be the same thing since people charged a fortune to get Love up and Down/cloak/pants etc. Or they spent over a year farming coins for all of it.

Its a god way to **** of old and loyal PWI-players b:surrender.

Nerfing APS will still result in APS sticking with APS (in the general mindset of ppl). Nothing is solved when nerfing APS to 3.33. On top of that, they now just pissed off 80% of the users...which will not go well for their business model.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

I think perma-spark is more of a problem then than aps.

3 seconds damage immunity
20% HP gained
25% attack speed increase
500% more weapon attack
self-purify
0 mana cost

Spamable every 12 seconds lol. Something so powerful was never designed to be spammed like that. They should give it a 60s cooldown.

RedsRose - Lost City

^ Agreed 100%. It is not the APS as much as it is the spark b:surrender

Regardless though, PW will do what it wants too, not like they have never pissed off the player base before. b:shutup

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think perma-spark is more of a problem then than aps.

3 seconds damage immunity
20% HP gained
25% attack speed increase
500% more weapon attack
self-purify
0 mana cost

Spamable every 12 seconds lol. Something so powerful was never designed to be spammed like that. They should give it a 60s cooldown.

That's evidently what Nirvana and TT changes aimed at dealing with. The seals alone throw out permaspark for 4 APS (except for sins) and turn 5 APS into 4 APS. However, it changed absolutely nothing as to how much effectiveness APS still had, nor did it stop people from continuously leaving wizards and psychics out of general squads.

So in regards to the OP.. it's another horrible idea that would change nothing.

Changing spark to 60 second cooldown is a good idea for APS but also doesn't take into consideration when one might need to use, say, cloud erupt, to gain another spark quickly, who is not an APS player, or someone who uses chi pots or veno lending hand for sparks. This hurts everyone, not just APS classes.

The best way to deal with it is unfortunately the least moral way as far as PWI is concerned (because it directly will lessen their revenue), which is outright setting a much lower attack rate cap than 5 (between 2 and 3.33). Initially I was gonna go with those who suggested in this thread or another that changing bosses to debuff and dramatically decrease attack rate often would do the trick as well but it would affect every physical hitting class and weapon style instead of just APS fist/claw/dagger users. There's few suggestions that don't include **** over another large swath of people who weren't the intended targets.

Regenbogen - Lost City

bringing it up again...extreme increase to weapon durability loss when sparked...

effectivness on non aps <<<<< effectiveness on aps

some thing like:
1spark - durability loss x2
2spark - durability loss x4
3spark - durability loss x16

b:bye

Yulk_owns - Lost City

Solution? Stop buying -int stuff, play the game normally... Problem solved.

Infact, leave it as it is. I hate genies, and you hate APS. I gave up on removing / nerfing genies because them wimps likes pampering so much. I bet multi-casting will cause the game to be easier... Urgh

Spark and genies are the real issue, even single spark, BMs at LVL40+ can permaspark easily. (2 APS and spark I)

Xarathox - Dreamweaver

Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »

bringing it up again...extreme increase to weapon durability loss when sparked...

effectivness on non aps <<<<< effectiveness on aps

some thing like:
1spark - durability loss x2
2spark - durability loss x4
3spark - durability loss x16

b:bye

What about my sage barb. He has exactly 0.91 max aps with his weapons, and there are times when I need to sage spark to stay alive or deal more damage to a timed boss (3min boss and Snakefist, anyone?). I already have ****ing rediculously high repair bills as it is, so you want barbs like me who aren't aps to have even more coin loss from repairs? **** you.

The best and only solution to the aps problem, is to accept that there is no problem. The fact that you're lazy and selfish is only pissing off everyone who do like having high aps characters to make a lot of things faster and/or easier. Both on them or an entire squad.

CandyCorn - Raging Tide

obvious troll thread is obvious

Quilue - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think perma-spark is more of a problem then than aps.

3 seconds damage immunity
20% HP gained
25% attack speed increase
500% more weapon attack
self-purify
0 mana cost

Spamable every 12 seconds lol. Something so powerful was never designed to be spammed like that. They should give it a 60s cooldown.

stoopid Ast is saying this because Asty-squads can take a TT/Nirv boss to at least 1/2 during a spark. The rest of you can rot in 3-3/Nirv for all Ast cares

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The best way to deal with it is unfortunately the least moral way as far as PWI is concerned (because it directly will lessen their revenue), which is outright setting a much lower attack rate cap than 5 (between 2 and 3.33). Initially I was gonna go with those who suggested in this thread or another that changing bosses to debuff and dramatically decrease attack rate often would do the trick as well but it would affect every physical hitting class and weapon style instead of just APS fist/claw/dagger users. There's few suggestions that don't include **** over another large swath of people who weren't the intended targets.

Capping attack rate render fists completely useless because then people would just auto attack with slower weapons like single blades and spears. Spears can reach 2.0 triple sparked, single blades are slightly faster. Consider what this means for the entire weapon path. All fists are good for is auto attack, capping it to something another weapon can reach makes it obsolete.

TheDan - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think perma-spark is more of a problem then than aps.

3 seconds damage immunity
20% HP gained
25% attack speed increase
500% more weapon attack
self-purify
0 mana cost

Spamable every 12 seconds lol. Something so powerful was never designed to be spammed like that. They should give it a 60s cooldown.

I think the scarier thing to realize for most people is that the bonuses of the heals from triple spark is really nothing compared to how much you can heal yourself from bloodpaint. When you can tank world bosses or Illusion Lord Armageddon un-charmed and don't need a cleric... that's just screaming OP lawl.

Ursa - Dreamweaver

yup.
Being healed for an average of 1200HP/sec, while fighting a boss, just from BP is nothing to laugh at. And I only have a +10 deicide.

Yulk_owns - Lost City

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think perma-spark is more of a problem then than aps.

3 seconds damage immunity
20% HP gained
25% attack speed increase
500% more weapon attack
self-purify
0 mana cost

Spamable every 12 seconds lol. Something so powerful was never designed to be spammed like that. They should give it a 60s cooldown.

^this and players get 4-5 chi per hit, which factors as (3.33-4.0 APS meaning 13-20 chi per second)

Rainesierr - Lost City

well someone recently mentioned bloodpaint. what if bloodpaint was nerfed to 1% or 1.5%? something like that, and keep sage bp to 1% more than normal. or is that another thing that would just make life too much harder for non-aps melees? i mean, it was with the tb expansion (and, coincidentally, bloodpaint) that 5aps became so mainstream. we lived without it before, couldn't we live without (as much of) it again?

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

In simple proportional terms: As APS increases, accuracy decreases. A real life example can be applied to this. Unless you're extremely skilled, the faster you throw.. let's say darts at a dartboard, the lesser the chance of you hitting bullseye, or the general area. 5 throws per second to me = darts all over the wall.

And in the other thread, people suggested using rings that add 50% accuracy, such as Misty Forest Rings, Sign of Frost: Chaos, or the R9 ring, to counter the decrease in accuracy. And as another person said in said thread, a 50% increase on a small amount of accuracy is still a small amount of accuracy.

I think this would work out as a pretty decent balance. Missing hits still gains you chi, meaning permaspark is still there, but it also balances the damage output such that 5aps isn't doing all the damage, lower aps people still hit often, non-aps based people won't be affected much at all, and mage classes wouldn't be affected.

Let me know what you all think.

b:bye

seems logical...

it was funny reading all the excuses as to why 5aps should forever stay that way.
Most was cause they spend money or just cause they wanted to keep it.

Xarathox - Dreamweaver

Rainesierr - Lost City wrote: »

well someone recently mentioned bloodpaint. what if bloodpaint was nerfed to 1% or 1.5%? something like that, and keep sage bp to 1% more than normal. or is that another thing that would just make life too much harder for non-aps melees? i mean, it was with the tb expansion (and, coincidentally, bloodpaint) that 5aps became so mainstream. we lived without it before, couldn't we live without (as much of) it again?

Again, that would gimp sins to the point of being unplayable. My sin at lvl 90, with 1.54 aps unsparked (2.0 sparked) and no BP gets me killed in seconds flat, on normal quest mobs. Reducing BP below 2% would be slightly better than no BP, but I would still have to spend a fortune on charms/pots/food to grind on quest mobs. That would be completely unacceptable.

A LA melee class is utterly useless on its own without BP, or a whole squad to kill something for you while you stand around.

Caster classes have different ways of keeping from taking too much damage (or any at all in some cases).

Archers have the mostly the same options as casters do.

HA Melee classes have higher hp pools and defences to manage damage intake.

Sins have BP. They are LA, which means they are squishy as hell. They're melee, which means they have to take hits just like Barbs and BMs. They do not fare well when BP runs out because they're screwed beyond recognition when that happens.

SilversMoon - Heavens Tear

Rainesierr - Lost City wrote: »

well someone recently mentioned bloodpaint. what if bloodpaint was nerfed to 1% or 1.5%? something like that, and keep sage bp to 1% more than normal. or is that another thing that would just make life too much harder for non-aps melees? i mean, it was with the tb expansion (and, coincidentally, bloodpaint) that 5aps became so mainstream. we lived without it before, couldn't we live without (as much of) it again?

Umm, not quite. Sins are too squishy as a fact, the only reason I survived to make it to 100 is
bp, I am an aps user, but no where near hardcore.
So if bp was weaker, I don't wanna imagine what leveling a mediocre, non charmed sin will be like

Rainesierr - Lost City

SilversMoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Umm, not quite. Sins are too squishy as a fact, the only reason I survived to make it to 100 is
bp, I am an aps user, but no where near hardcore.
So if bp was weaker, I don't wanna imagine what leveling a mediocre, non charmed sin will be like

yeah...i was afraid of that. just tossing ideas out there though. at least its simple, unlike some of the other suggestions i've seen xD (not necessarily in this thread)

SandraPlease - Sanctuary

The 5 aps players and their fans need to stop the QQ. It is out of control. For every one person saying they dont like what the 5 aps craze have done to the game there are ten or more pro 5 aps QQing more and harder.

I also think that you need to think more of what you are saying and your arguments. Yes you might have spent money but so have some of the other classes too. Yes the others can still play and so will the ex-5 aps players be able to do after the nerf (if it ever comes).

Yes the game have always had 5 aps in it but it doesnt seem logical that this is what was intended. Forcing the developers to reprogram most parts of the game in order to deal with 5 aps players making some instances unabled to be completed or extremly time consuming without a 5 aps heavy squad. That is a sign that something is broken.

It also seems strange to reprogram mostly everything in the game (classes and end game instances) in order to keep 5 aps players when it should be easy to just lower the cap for aps.

I hope the developers will keep their promise and lower the cap for aps soon. I am doing fine as it is but i think the game will change for the better once that happens.

CandyCorn - Raging Tide

i don't see how people can not see past this "5ap veil" if you had eyes like me you would see : Hello, I'm to lazy to post and the other 5 ap thread right infront of me so i'm deciding too make a new thread in an attempt to better express my opinion and troll you at the same time. k thxbye

Regenbogen - Lost City

Xarathox - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What about my sage barb. He has exactly 0.91 max aps with his weapons, and there are times when I need to sage spark to stay alive or deal more damage to a timed boss (3min boss and Snakefist, anyone?). I already have ****ing rediculously high repair bills as it is, so you want barbs like me who aren't aps to have even more coin loss from repairs? **** you.

The best and only solution to the aps problem, is to accept that there is no problem. The fact that you're lazy and selfish is only pissing off everyone who do like having high aps characters to make a lot of things faster and/or easier. Both on them or an entire squad.

idk if you are trolling but
you hit probably up to 10times per spark even less if you just use skills...
while 5aps will hit ~50times...

there IS a problem...
it startet when devs made tank-healer partyplay obsolete due to bloodpaint and permasparked/5aps...