Got an idea how to fix 5.0? Read here.

Ursa - Dreamweaver · February 2011

* her gear back, happy now mr. Grammar ****?

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · February 2011

I bet both him and his female wizzy sit down to.. you know.

Azzazin - Dreamweaver · February 2011

To all of you utter... fools who think that 'QQ, the caster classes should be allowed to have the single target dps of a 5aps sin/bm/barb/whatever'...have you given any thought to how incredible overpowered this would be? I mean, really? OK, its obvious you haven't, lets think about this.

1) To do dps, a 5aps has to get right up close & personal to the thing he/she is attacking. That means you are much more vulnerable to a variety of attacks, whether the thing you are close to is a boss, or an enemy TW squad. Sins and barb have one (1) attack that has range; bms have a couple, and archers have quite a number of them, of course, when using bow. The point is, dps like you want for your casters would be utterly & completely broken in pk and TW. Instant-death for anybody within 30 meters, in the case of a wizard (WHICH, as you will remember, can already 1-hit a lot of people with relative ease anyways).

2) Casters in general have more aoes. As well, their damage is MAGIC (which is a really important thing, cuz if you've forgotten, magic DOESN'T MISS, EVER; not only which, but there are more ways to increase physical defense, but only one buff [cleric's 'magic shell'] which increases magic defense). Not only would increasing the dps of a caster class allow (eg, wizard) to do the best dps from as far away as 30meters, they'd still be the best at area of effect damage as well.

3) In pk, 5.0 is NOT broken. In fact, against a heavily geared, skilled wizard, you will rarely get many chances to hit them in melee range, before they either seal you or teleport away from you, or sleep you, or immoblize or stun you.... and you are suggesting that you want a caster to do the dmg of a 5.0 from anywhere within 30 meters, when its so bloody easy to keep away from a melee opponent? Bloody ridiculous you are.

4) While casters cannot achieve the single-target dps of a melee 5.0, they can still do very decent damage in their own right. I have seen a cleric who has a build which can achieve -94% channeling... and he's sage. Believe you me, his damage is no joking matter. Did he spend millions on his build? Why, yes, he probably did. Is there anything to stop you from doing the same? Well, no, there is not. If you want *good* dps via -channeling, it can be achieved.

In conclusion, we can say there is no bloody way we can make casters do the same single target dps as a 5.0, since it would instantly make all melee classes obsolete in pk and TW. I have a different suggestion for all those who just looove to complain on these forums. You jealous of the 5.0 damage (which really has most of its uses for PVE), then by all means GO ROLL A BM OR A SIN! Nothing stopping you from doing this ANY TIME YOU BLOODY WELL WANT. Oh what... you don't want to put the time or money others had to in order to get your own 5.0 build?

Get outta here.

Azzazin

hahahahahahah1 · February 2011

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

4) While casters cannot achieve the single-target dps of a melee 5.0, they can still do very decent damage in their own right. I have seen a cleric who has a build which can achieve -94% channeling... and he's sage. Believe you me, his damage is no joking matter. Did he spend millions on his build? Why, yes, he probably did. Is there anything to stop you from doing the same? Well, no, there is not. If you want *good* dps via -channeling, it can be achieved.

-94% channel? That is the highest channel i heard of so far in our version of pw, specially of a sage. can you show his gears?

Regenbogen - Lost City · February 2011

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

instances are profitable cause of aps, you know

aps'ers over-loved nv and tts and made mats prices go up after nerfes just because they are the only one who can farm them even if its more easily fr them than before 5aps*

but anyway, your solution seems not too bad

(*o, and thats why 5 aps is a cancer btw) b:pleased

fixed

Ursa - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Azzazin, you don't get the point here.
yeah, in pvp the output dmg of the casters is pretty good. With good gear and refines there isn't much that's imbalance except for effin sins being able to stealth and run away or come near u, stun/5aps to death before you can even press expell or charm ticks. Now, don't be a f king hypocrite here.

Other than that, all DD classes should be able to compete in PvE. Sure, I don't want to do your dmg from 30m since you're melee. I'll give you in PvE a 50% dmg advantage and I'll consider that fair. Don't give me bull**** about how much aps costs, I know, I have a 5 aps bm and that 50% over my r8 wiz would be fair for how much I invested in it.
Now, my BM does about 5-8x more dmg than my wiz. A sin equally geared will do even more. I mean, use your brain, you consider fair having 10x dmg than a magic dd class? I'm sure if your IQ is not under 50 you have the right answer.

Ursa - Dreamweaver · February 2011

hahahahahahah1 wrote: »

-94% channel? That is the highest channel i heard of so far in our version of pw, specially of a sage. can you show his gears?

go play with pwcalc and sage cleric mdef buff nub

*sigh...double post fml

hahahahahahah1 · February 2011

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

go play with pwcalc and sage cleric mdef buff nub

*sigh...double post fml

Listen you f@g that role plays a female, from what I tried a while back you can not get that much -channel with gears alone.

Ursa - Dreamweaver · February 2011

use brain on next try

Azzazin - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Why? Why must all classes be able to do the same damage in PVE? I believe you are missing the point here, what IS the point of having all classes be able to the same things? Think about it, one of the things melee classes have going for them IS the 5aps. Without that, why would you ever roll a melee class, unless you have some obsession with being a barb tank or something?

Different classes have different specialties. I should hardly need to remind you of this, but I will anyways.

Wizards -specialize in nuke damage/aoes, very strong in TW
Psychics -specialize in nuke damage/soulforce related stuff/curses, strong at most things (pk or TW);
Venos -specialize in curses/mix of physical + magic damage; capable of soloing many things; purge essential in TW
Clerics - specialize in healing, has a metal nuke skill; essential in TW and many instances
Archers -specialize in ranged physical attacks, strong in pk and TW
Barbs - specialize in tanking, essential in TW, strong in pk
BMS -specialize in melee range aoes and in single target dps; good in TW, good at pk
Sins -specialize in single target dps, very strong in pk

This is a rough approximation as to how I'd sort the classes based on their strengths. But a closer inspection of this also reveals the various not-so-strong areas for each class. Forrrr example, assassins... *can't* do great aoe damage. Its simply not possible, since there are only 2 aoes in our entire skill set. Every other class has at least 3.

You mention that against assassins, you use expel. I have played cleric in pk before, and I know exactly where you are coming from, you need fast reflexes. Thank goodness for expel, right? Now image for a second that casters could do... even half, no, a quarter of the single target dps that a bm or sin does, say. There will be no way to defend yourself anymore, am I right? Because remember, in your 'caster classes do very high single target dmg too' world, caster classes can still go around one hitting each other as well as dpsing. So there you are, and suddenly 'bam-bam-bam-bam' numbers fly over your head faster than you can read, and you press expel and *oops* dead. Over 25 meters away another caster is laughing at you.

Giving casters anywhere close to the single-target dps of a melee, and pk would be utterly broken. Any for those who'd say 'sins break pk as it is now', yes, sins do well in pvp; they are meant to! But as many have noted, sins are designed to do so well in TW, since it is much more dangerous to be right-up-close to the enemy. It doesn't matter what your dps is if you can't get close enough to hit somebody with it. In your world, anybody within 25-30meters would be able to kill anybody else almost instantly, since damage would be so much stronger than gear. If I want to play a game of who-sees-who first, I would go play a first person shooter, not PWI, thank you very much.

/

Azzazin

Azzazin - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Oh. The cleric in question has a g15 nirvana weapon with... uh, -10 and -3 channeling adds... and then has two stone of savants, so -3*2, so a total of -19% channeling from the weapon. Add to that nirvana g15 leggings, -3% helm, -9% channel belt & neck, -6% channel rings, lunar cape, scroll of tome, -6 channel rank top, -6 channel wrists.... and then sage 'magic shell' and yeah, you get -94% channeling.

Azzazin

Ursa - Dreamweaver · February 2011

why everyone needs same dmg in pve? Again, note, I'M SAYING PvE!!
because of something call balance in how you can produce coins/upgrade gear.
A caster will never be able to keep up with -int refines at the rate a -int can make cash.
this is why ppl are crying over -int, don't play stupid, I know you're not.
Giving casters the dps of a melee in PvP would be utterly stupid, imbalanced and even more r.tarded than -int is now

ElderSig - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Think about it, one of the things melee classes have going for them IS the 5aps. Without that, why would you ever roll a melee class, unless you have some obsession with being a barb tank or something?

Lol what? So I'm guessing every person who rolled a melee character for the year or so before 5 aps (not even counting other version) were all stupid eh?

The problem isn't just 5 aps damage, it's that it allows 1-2 classes to be the main tank, be the main DD, and do it all fairly easily.

When you have classes like bms and barbs (BMs were not originally a high DD class, they were a control/constant aoe class, and barbs.. duh) now do overwhelmingly more damage in PvE than the original DD classes then yes.... there's a problem.

Should casters have the same DPS? **** no.That would be insane, I don't even think Rank 9 should have ever been introduced.

Should a melee class have higher DPS? **** yes. But it shouldn't be to the degree it is now.

Also, you know something is wrong when classes aren't even using their own weapon type because of a broken mechanic.

hahahahahahah1 · February 2011

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Oh. The cleric in question has a g15 nirvana weapon with... uh, -10 and -3 channeling adds... and then has two stone of savants, so -3*2, so a total of -19% channeling from the weapon. Add to that nirvana g15 leggings, -3% helm, -9% channel belt & neck, -6% channel rings, lunar cape, scroll of tome, -6 channel rank top, -6 channel wrists.... and then sage 'magic shell' and yeah, you get -94% channeling.

Azzazin

Ah okay thanks I thought you meant gears alone. I went and looked up the skill since I never played a sage cleric before. I am not sure if that skill actually helps if you spam it. It increase your channel but you waste a similar amount of time to channel and cast it. Also your attack speed in return is not gonna be directly 20% faster cause of cast time. But besides that point ya it does give you a permanent -94% channel.b:thanks

Laranda - Heavens Tear · February 2011

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Why? Why must all classes be able to do the same damage in PVE? I believe you are missing the point here, what IS the point of having all classes be able to the same things? Think about it, one of the things melee classes have going for them IS the 5aps. Without that, why would you ever roll a melee class, unless you have some obsession with being a barb tank or something?

This is just my opinion from trying to sort through all these aps posts.

I think it boils down to two points: Aoe classes can't put their specialty to use in high level pve. Those with the dps specialty far exceeds the damage output of other classes.

I'm doubtful anyone truly wants wizards or any other spellcaster to have the same damage as single target melee. That would be completely overpowered. What they want is for their specialties to be useful in lv100+ dungeons and instances. As a result, they feel that single target damage, in the form of aps, completely eclipses anything they can do or reasonably accomplish.

Good at TW sounds like a nice specialty, but TW isn't all the time. No one wants to feel like their class is useless most of the week.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · February 2011

@Azzazzin

better question is: why there cant be balance in pve - like it somewhat used to be?

@Regenbogen

if you mean 3-3 fix, then prices went up because only few people can farm it (with profit) if there would be no APS at all, then prices would go up too.
but if there would be no APS and no big stock of green mats on server, then TT would be profitable for normal squads again, just like it was long time ago.
so APS dictates final price here too (at least to some extent).

as for nirvana prices: market is great source of info about game i.e. cost of uncanies is low enough to not be proftiable for squads w/o APS. if there would be no aps then cannies would sell for 1m if not more.

prices are set by farmers (in some reasonable range) and noone else.

@hahahahahahah1
casting shell takes 1.5s + time to switch to your char. it is pretty dumb to use it on yourself for channel bonus

Joshcja - Sanctuary · February 2011

...120 mill for a 5 aps archer...15 gold for account stash

really...

Azzazin - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Alrighty, I'm hearing ya. In pve, your uses for aoe damage (TT/nirvana) are not incredibly useful. However, as I believe I have pointed out, fixing one problem (giving casters a lot more single target dps) leads to a an even bigger problem (completely breaking pvp for melee classes).

Off the top of my head, there are a couple of approaches you could take, and bear with me if others have mentioned these before.

1) You lower the damage of 5apsers. Yeahhh thats gonna go over well with the many people spent spent time or $ building their characters. Seeing as this will likely never happen, we don't have to consider this option further.

2) Allow casters to do considerably more single target damage: (a) in pve only, or (b) in pve and pvp. As I believe I've suitably explained, increasing the dps of casters too much in pvp leads to a major imbalance in favor of casters. As far as option (a) goes, this would involve quite a bit of work by the developers, and I simply don't see it ever happening. How much would you nerf pve damage when going from a pve to pvp setting? The simple fact that you would need a nerf suggests some imbalance needing to be fixed.

3) Make an alt that is 5aps, and make coins with it to fund your 'main' or 'preferred' character. A lot of people do this with varied success. Contrary to what you might believe, 5aps isn't super easy to get; there are somewhat significant start-up costs involved. The fact that we see quite a few 5apsers indicates that quite a few people have spent either a lot of time or a lot of $ to get their build.

4) Aquire more -channel gear. Not to be disparaging, but if you really want more damage, then get more -channeling! I believe too many people make gear sets oriented only for defense. As an assassin, every single piece of gear I have gives me interval. Obviously I sacrifice a lot of potential defenses in order to use this build (eg, I can't equip cube necklace/warsong belt/wings of cloudcharger/nirvana wrists/rank 9). As the cleric I mentioned has aptly demonstrated to me, if you take some of the $ you might spend on making a 5aps toon, and spend it on acquiring top notch channeling gear, your damage input will increase quite a lot. Don't forget, in addition to faster skills, you gain chi a lot quicker (incidentally, each skill of a caster class gives quite a bit of chi per hit; to be in a perma double or triple spark, you don't need to reach anywhere close to 5aps). So if doing a lot of damage is what you are after, then focus on actually doing that damage. Get channel gear. -9% channel gear is rare but not impossible to find. A nirvana g15 weapon is pricey, but not any more so than the g15 nirvana daggers I currently have myself.

Azzazin

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · February 2011

you overrate channeling.. gives too little if you take costs/nerfs into account

WnbTank - Archosaur · February 2011

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This is a rough approximation as to how I'd sort the classes based on their strengths. But a closer inspection of this also reveals the various not-so-strong areas for each class. Forrrr example, assassins... *can't* do great aoe damage. Its simply not possible, since there are only 2 aoes in our entire skill set. Every other class has at least 3.

Double spark + Earthern rift from stealth... You were saying?

Ursa - Dreamweaver · February 2011

channel stack will not fix magic dd classes in pve unless is hitting glitch point. But that will break also PvP, so big NO to that "fix". I have no probs dropping LA/HA in TW, gimme more channel and there will be blood, lol.
Another fix would be to introduce a "default" spammable skill (o.2channel /0.5 cast). Let's make it a 79 skill - since up to 95 -int isn't that impressive. This skill should do a certain amount of dmg+mag def debuff that stacks, so basically the longer you use it, the bigger the dmg. Take the stack effect out of pvp and make it deal /8 or /10 dmg, and there u go, a useless skill in PvP, but a huge dps one in PvE. I'm not expecting 5 aps sin/bm dmg in pve, gimme a 3rd of it and I'm ok, gimme 50% of it and I'm gonna be a happy camper.

Moruadh - Heavens Tear · February 2011

Cap it at 3.0 and call it a day?

Ursa - Dreamweaver · February 2011

nope, 3 aps will still do a lot more dmg than casters.

melee classes got a nice boost with -int. TBH, with the gear available now, without aps melee would have been doomed in PvP.
why not give a nice boost to casters in pve too? no one gets any kind of nerf, just good addition to something already existing.
Expanding the class usage would also bring cash to PWI. Now everyone is moving around LA/HA gear on alts. Few have casters they support. Think about the boom of packs and gold charge if PWI would make casters useful again. Refines, defenses, stuff like that.

Regenbogen - Lost City · February 2011

oh come on its not as if PWE didn't know what would happen...

throwing out more and more op **** for "cheap" with packs and sales...
oh btw did you know there aren't any packs in pwcn?
got forbidden because of the gamble factor...

why do nv pants have interval?
where do 1st cast nv dagger get that -0.1int from?

seems like everything is happening as planned just waiting for new changes that make caster more op than interval b:victory

Xarathox - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Or...just nerf aps and -chan and force everyone to hit like pussies.

Regenbogen - Lost City · February 2011

Xarathox - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Or...just nerf aps and -chan and force the barb to tank, the cleric to heal and everyone else to hit like pussies like they should.

fixed

Laranda - Heavens Tear · February 2011

Had a power problem so this post is a bit late.

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Seeing as this will likely never happen, we don't have to consider this option further.

Fair enough. All I'll say is that I feel the devs ultimately have to be the ones to fix the imbalances. It is them who created them in the first place. Players can't really fix mechanics.

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How much would you nerf pve damage when going from a pve to pvp setting? The simple fact that you would need a nerf suggests some imbalance needing to be fixed.

I personally would not change mage damage baring changes that new classes would naturally bring.

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

3) Make an alt that is 5aps, and make coins with it to fund your 'main' or 'preferred' character. A lot of people do this with varied success. Contrary to what you might believe, 5aps isn't super easy to get; there are somewhat significant start-up costs involved. The fact that we see quite a few 5apsers indicates that quite a few people have spent either a lot of time or a lot of $ to get their build.

This is not a real solution. I know a thing or two about alts. If a person doesn't like the aps lifestyle, they won't make it to 5aps for the attempt to be worthwhile. There are exceptions, of course, but something like this generally does not work.

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

4) Aquire more -channel gear. Not to be disparaging, but if you really want more damage, then get more -channeling! I believe too many people make gear sets oriented only for defense. As an assassin, every single piece of gear I have gives me interval. Obviously I sacrifice a lot of potential defenses in order to use this build (eg, I can't equip cube necklace/warsong belt/wings of cloudcharger/nirvana wrists/rank 9).

You don't forfeit all pdef from your ornaments. For mages, it's pdef or no pdef for a slot. You have access to the in-between. Mages do not. As close as it gets is "Reduce Physical damage taken" and that will not get multiplied by any Mage's defensive wards. There are relatively few items that mix channel and reduce damage, and those may have less channeling than a dedicated channel setup.

The defense gained from channel gear is mdef. Mages get alot of it already so diminishing returns is in effect.

Azzazin - Dreamweaver · February 2011

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Double spark + Earthern rift from stealth... You were saying?

Let me expound on that, as you are clearly misinterpreting. I'm not saying that the two aoes we have aren't nice, but one of them does 'ok' dmg, has a 30 second cooldown, thats the subsea strike. The other one, earthen rift, does really good dmg if you have a good wep; it has an 8 second cooldown. However take note: you can use the two aoes and then... wait. No more aoe damage. 8 seconds later, another earthen rift. Then a wait. Most other 'dd' style classes (heck, even barbs) can shoot off one aoe after the other, cuz they have lots to choose from. This becomes most obvious in (a) RB, and (b) TW. And if you want to go comparing aoes... uh, your armageddon, arguably the highest hitting skill in game? Or a demon sunder? (auto-crit). Cuz you are making the assumption I double sparked the earthen rift, lol...

tuvoc777 · February 2011

ok there is nothing wrong with 5 aps. the problem is with barbs they need upgraded aggro skills so they can keep aggro from the DD's this in my opinion would fix alot of problems and make the normal barb vit build the right build for BARBS. i also think they should make fists/claws a BM only weapon type. this though would upset the fist archers/barbs etc. soooo pwi needs to let these ppl send in tickets to get free restat notes and unbinding charms for there aps gear so they can sell it to refund there money.and they could go back to there classes intended weapon/gear.

NonameWiz - Sanctuary · February 2011

Another fix? :O

Too many fixes and nothing has been or will be fixed.

Got an idea how to fix 5.0? Read here.

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