Got an idea how to fix 5.0? Read here.

Hl/ - Harshlands13

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Oh my have times changed. b:pleased

And not for the better.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Hl/ - Harshlands wrote: »

And not for the better.

Not for you. BMs went from worthless obscurity to being self-sufficient. The only people who are really complaining about them now were the same people who would exclude them before.

I was lucky, I had friends and a farming party before interval became popular. Most BMs weren't so lucky.

So now the shoe is on the other foot, and you don't like it one bit. lol. That's funny.

Okeano - Harshlands

Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »

whats up? did PWCN nerf aps? b:dirty

No, I'll just post that in every 5 APS thread I see from now on.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

Bellarie - Raging Tide wrote: »

You do realize that Blademasters are the only class in the game that is meant to use Fists and Claws. They get skills that require them to be equipped, and they even get Fist & Claw Mastery. This also means they are the only class that can use their intended class skills with Fists and Claws.

So please, how does this make "absolutely no sense"?

most fist bm's ive squaded with don't use skills other than genie ones. Its just demon spark -> attack. alot of sins are the same way (pve wise at any rate). using class skills on a 5.0 toon is generally a huge loss of dps. same with archers that dont even have -int. just normal attack.

any rate.. archers fyi get an "all weapons" skill tree which realistically speaking means they can use fists/claws which are actually the most logical choice for an archer that has a melee opponent in their face and it would be illogical to try to kite something with insane hp/can't be stun locked. fists/claws take the least amount of str of any melee weapon, and the highest dex... thats practically in line with the basic archer build. in my personal opinion archers were designed with the intention in mind that they use both ranged weapons and fists/claws.

as per 5.0 unbalancing the PvE aspect of the game - sure it may be, but as a barb that used to tank 2 hour + TT runs, its a relief to see bosses drop in just a couple minutes or less rather than 15 minutes +. so what if im not the tank, less repairs for me. but i think people are dead wrong when they say they "arent wanted" or "cant get into" farm run squads.. when I send out tele's i grab any dd that replies and runs still seem to get done relatively quick whether its with 4 sins or a traditional squad.

PvP.. yeah its kinda disheartening to get wtf pwn'd in a few seconds by any 5.0 toon.

Tulipano - Archosaur

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

PSY:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=04269ef833b2e56f
average cost: over 3bil

average mattack: 21.8k
average weapon dmg: 3.2k
attack levels: 89+30+25 = 144 (armor, blessing, sage voodoo)
average mattack sparked: 45.25k
sparks: 3 times every min

sparked time: 36sec
inactive time: 9sec
normal time: 15sec

skills: spirit blast -> aqua imbact (Sage)
sage masteries
-18%chan

average dps unsparked:
one loop:
1.1sec chan -> 0.9sec
2.9sec cast
total: 3.8sec

damage:
170.8k

dps: 44.9k/s

sparked damage: 313.8k
dps: 82.6k/s

in 1min:
damage:3.647k
dps:60.7k/s


SIN:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=81f75908463ef868
average cost..500m-1.2bil

average damage per hit: 14.95k/s
dps (5aps): 74.75k/s

wanna include crits?:
psy: 69.2k/s
sin: 95.7k/s

ofc i hope that u noticed that the sin isnt wearing any armor that gives additional dex points or attack levels...


hmmm....


ps: yes i love calculating stuff :b

lol I love the way you brought this in the thread... and still there will be people trying to hide the reality with stupid arguments.

PsyVic - Sanctuary

simple as it is
the OP problem is all mele classes are over powered then magic classes...
make magic classes better and OP problem solved...
my idea for that is
all rings, belts, necks insteed of basic 3% - chaneling make - 5%
insteed of -6% make it -10%
same with wapons and other stuff
+ u could give us more stuff that give us - channel. coz so far there is only few high lvl gear which gives it. so basicly magic class have to sacrefice dmg or def to get high - chaneling
mele classes have to spend maney to get 5aps true but if magic classes get very similar cost high lvl gear with decent - chaneling no1 will complain.
i think that solve the problem without rly chenging code or anything. all that have to be done is give us more decent items with - chaneling or change the existing ones to give better bonuses

Joshcja - Sanctuary

well speakign of game balance *points to jones blessing and rank sale*

grats a +0 rank caster can 3 spark and kill me in the time it takes to holy path to them

go learn to play?

CandyCorn - Raging Tide

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

well speakign of game balance *points to jones blessing and rank sale*

grats a +0 rank caster can 3 spark and kill me in the time it takes to holy path to them

go learn to play?

And they QQ about stealthing sins..

Traz - Dreamweaver

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

PSY:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=04269ef833b2e56f
average cost: over 3bil

average mattack: 21.8k
average weapon dmg: 3.2k
attack levels: 89+30+25 = 144 (armor, blessing, sage voodoo)
average mattack sparked: 45.25k
sparks: 3 times every min

sparked time: 36sec
inactive time: 9sec
normal time: 15sec

skills: spirit blast -> aqua imbact (Sage)
sage masteries
-18%chan

average dps unsparked:
one loop:
1.1sec chan -> 0.9sec
2.9sec cast
total: 3.8sec

damage:
170.8k

dps: 44.9k/s

sparked damage: 313.8k
dps: 82.6k/s

in 1min:
damage:3.647k
dps:60.7k/s


SIN:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=81f75908463ef868
average cost..500m-1.2bil

average damage per hit: 14.95k/s
dps (5aps): 74.75k/s

wanna include crits?:
psy: 69.2k/s
sin: 95.7k/s

ofc i hope that u noticed that the sin isnt wearing any armor that gives additional dex points or attack levels...


hmmm....


ps: yes i love calculating stuff :b

1.5 billion to 2 billion into my sin and still have troubles with 3-3. 3-1 fully buffed I can handle for the most part but still die plenty. It's not about barely getting 5.0 for 1 billion. Unless you can survive it's worthless. 1.5 billion min to get a good char that can actually tank.

Oh knows there are differences in classes and one does more damage then another, deal with it.

Ayainity - Heavens Tear

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Ever hear of zhen parties? Or fishies? Or whatever? No, I guess you haven't. BMs used to also get lowest pick in the archaic 'sort mats by class' when TT used to be owned and run by venos. Yet BMs didn't complain as much as casters do now. It's the other way around and you hear massive QQ. It's quite funny to be honest.

An end-game BM was one of the worst classes to have before -interval gear. When a BM hit 100, they would reroll a veno so they could make money. Now everyone else rolls a BM or Sin to farm money. Oh my have times changed. b:pleased

You don't know how long I've been around. Why must people go for that card ALL THE TIME?! Bms didn't complain yet your talking about it to me now? Please go away.. lol~

Ayainity - Heavens Tear

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Not for you. BMs went from worthless obscurity to being self-sufficient. The only people who are really complaining about them now were the same people who would exclude them before.

I was lucky, I had friends and a farming party before interval became popular. Most BMs weren't so lucky.

So now the shoe is on the other foot, and you don't like it one bit. lol. That's funny.

Your joking right? I never excluded a class for anything. Never have never will.. I think its people like you who are doing that now.

Laranda - Heavens Tear

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

I figure if the Devs have tested it and found it is indeed OP, then the most likely thing we're going to see is new and better equipment for non-APS builds, which would be an obvious and effective solution.

I'm almost certain this is what's going to happen. I recall a thread that stated the devs asked the chinese player base what they thought if the -int set bonuses were nerfed for lionheart/ashura gear (basically, what I would do). It was hated. Understandable given the gear costs and attachments to the gear they've earned.

The devs have to tread lightly or **** of their core base even more than what we see here. So many "solutions" act as a sledgehammer, exactly what the devs would want to avoid.

Haden - Dreamweaver

Tulipano - Archosaur wrote: »

Nice QQ and IQ out there dude, world is so bad because ppl complain about 5.0 in a game b:cry Not even my granma makes those kind of conclusions.

You're the one here not seeing the reality in front of your face and not accepting game is unbalanced like this, and a fix like increase -chan would make everyone more happier than just your class, you selfish azz

No, I'm not a selfish ***, I dont have 5.0, nor do I want to have 5.0. But every single passing day that goes by I see 3 additional posts replace the 15 that were removed the day before.

I used to support the nerf 5.0 movement, because I do see the imbalance in it, however, it wont be fixed, so stop whining about it and whine about something more important.

If you read what I said which was to reitterate, complain about something more important instead of just beating a dead horse. ITS A GAME, go play it, or leave like I did.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

Ever hear of zhen parties? Or fishies? Or whatever? No, I guess you haven't. BMs used to also get lowest pick in the archaic 'sort mats by class' when TT used to be owned and run by venos. Yet BMs didn't complain as much as casters do now. It's the other way around and you hear massive QQ. It's quite funny to be honest.

An end-game BM was one of the worst classes to have before -interval gear. When a BM hit 100, they would reroll a veno so they could make money. Now everyone else rolls a BM or Sin to farm money. Oh my have times changed. b:pleased

Shrugs, people complained when the shoe was on either foot. What's new..

TigerLily - Lost City

Ayainity - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Your joking right? I never excluded a class for anything. Never have never will.. I think its people like you who are doing that now.

Why does it matter that you never excluded people? You're 1 player among thousands lol. Before interval gear came out back in 2008/2009, it was pretty much impossible for BMs to get squads for 3-1/3-2/3-3 etc. Pve was pretty much dominated by Barb + Cleric + archers as main DD + 1 Veno with herc.

Bms in pvp where nothing but sacrificial stun + HF bishes for other DD-classes. Thanks to int gear they became strong and useful on their own.

Nerfing aps would definitely strike the hardest against BMs, while sins on the other hand would do just fine at 3.33 in both pvp and pve.

Ayainity - Heavens Tear

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Why does it matter that you never excluded people? You're 1 player among thousands lol. Before interval gear came out back in 2008/2009, it was pretty much impossible for BMs to get squads for 3-1/3-2/3-3 etc. Pve was pretty much dominated by Barb + Cleric + archers as main DD + 1 Veno with herc.

Bms in pvp where nothing but sacrificial stun + HF bishes for other DD-classes. Thanks to int gear they became strong and useful on their own.

Nerfing aps would definitely strike the hardest against BMs, while sins on the other hand would do just fine at 3.33 in both pvp and pve.

What I said has to do with me and my squad setups. What OTHERS did back than has nothing to do with me now. This aps chatter is dead to me now. I like the game before asp and I like it now. If they change asp I'll still like it after too. I'll still play my bm/sin as well. Lata.:D~

Synta - Dreamweaver

Hmm, it wouldn't be a 'fix', as such, and certainly wont really affect the unfairness in PvP too much, but would a cooldown on sparking work, stopping perma-spark?

Skippy - Dreamweaver

er.. if you cant win them, join them

thats wut i did xD

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

i remember times, when bms werent too popular in tt

usually squads were made of barb, cleric, veno and archer and -optionally- wizzy (omg, yes wizzies too. 70% of archer DD-power isnt so awfuly bad)


now, if someone puts '=' between 'old days' and 'today', where everyone who isnt APS is excluded from squad (spare 'if you have friends then not' argument), the he gotta be mad

yarly


and btw, if someone was vit, axe bm then wth did he expect anyway?

WnbTank - Archosaur

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

See, this is my point.

You can spend huge amounts of coin, cash, or time on getting 5.0 (and that includes real world money too), and make a 5.0 OP. But you can't do the same with, say, a Wiz. Balance it by making the Mage classes equally OP.

I want to dump huge amounts of time and effort into my Veno and have it be massive OP death. Yeah, you can farm instances with a good Pet *coughHerccough*, but that's really about it. =\ Though I love the class, and will keep mine, but mine is getting restatted to arcane, and probably won't be going into TW ever again.

Actually, R9 wep, you`ll need ~700 gold for it. You can get that, if you buy gold at right times(bad sales), for 500m coins. Now wizzie with R9 will oneshot pretty much anything on PvP, it doesnt matter if those BMs got 5aps, they wont get to you. They are gonna need full R9 and heck, they still get 1shot w/o op refines. That aint OP? And no, you dont even need that OP refines, this 1 wizz had R9 wep +3, w/o shards, unless I missed em, I got hit for bit under 20k.

Before you start about how venos still got disadventage? Nix and run, still kills most squishies. Barbs? We got veno on our server that hits steadily 20k+ on me, non crits, not OP? Disqualifying OP geared ppl, any wizzie can spend 72 gold for R8, 2m for wep, let`s say he bought gold with 100 bucks(106 gold w/o sales) he gets his wep to +5. He will be hitting over 10k on me, same goes for BMs, Archers/Sins dont have that much more m.def. Sure, I`ve said it myself aps are broken on PvE, on PvP every single caster is broken with r8 wep which, thanks to PWE, is the standard weapon any caster is gonna hit you with on PvP, forgetting those R9s running around.

Firefeng - Dreamweaver

You all are overthinking this entirely too much. Simplify: a majority of the 5 APS b*tching derives from the exclusion of caster classes from certain instances, primarily Nirvana and higher TTs. (There's a small cadre of people complaining about PVP, but nothing wipes the floor in mass PVP more than rank casters. My Sin dies almost exclusively to Wizzies/Clerics/Archers in TW; solo PVP is a different matter entirely, but one thing at a time.)

Solution: Sage/Demon caster skills for Veno/Cleric/Psy/Wizzie/Archer (maybe...) ignore a further portion of defense on [?] bosses. Right now, damage is quartered on said bosses. If, however, for certain skills the damage was only halved? Depending on how it's balanced, you might actually apply this bonus to all skills and leave auto-attacking as the only damage that is quartered; I know of many a low-APS Sage Sin who might prefer this, actually, given the benefit of their skills.

So, casters get invited to more PVE outings without also breaking them for PVP. (May make Rebirth too easy, but I'm a sin and I've never seen the inside of one since I was on my BM over a year ago, so I don't remember if the waves of mobs are [?] or not...)

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Firefeng - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You all are overthinking this entirely too much. Simplify: a majority of the 5 APS b*tching derives from the exclusion of caster classes from certain instances, primarily Nirvana and higher TTs. (There's a small cadre of people complaining about PVP, but nothing wipes the floor in mass PVP more than rank casters. My Sin dies almost exclusively to Wizzies/Clerics/Archers in TW; solo PVP is a different matter entirely, but one thing at a time.)

Solution: Sage/Demon caster skills for Veno/Cleric/Psy/Wizzie/Archer (maybe...) ignore a further portion of defense on [?] bosses. Right now, damage is quartered on said bosses. If, however, for certain skills the damage was only halved? Depending on how it's balanced, you might actually apply this bonus to all skills and leave auto-attacking as the only damage that is quartered; I know of many a low-APS Sage Sin who might prefer this, actually, given the benefit of their skills.

So, casters get invited to more PVE outings without also breaking them for PVP. (May make Rebirth too easy, but I'm a sin and I've never seen the inside of one since I was on my BM over a year ago, so I don't remember if the waves of mobs are [?] or not...)

mobs in RB are [?], the bosses are ~lvl95

Synta - Dreamweaver

Firefeng - Dreamweaver wrote: »

(May make Rebirth too easy, but I'm a sin and I've never seen the inside of one since I was on my BM over a year ago, so I don't remember if the waves of mobs are [?] or not...)

Would make it easier due to higher DD, but harder due to more aggro for the wizzies..... So idk, would just be a bit weird =/
Still prefer the idea of a cooldown on sparks b:cute

Xarathox - Dreamweaver

Best solution ever: Don't like 5 aps? Don't squad 5 aps players.

There, your problems are solved. You won't have to worry about who tanks, and you won't be missing the 15min runs since it'll still be taking you an hour or more to get anything done. b:cute

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Xarathox - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Best solution ever: Don't like 5 aps? Don't squad 5 aps players.

There, your problems are solved. You won't have to worry about who tanks, and you won't be missing the 15min runs since it'll still be taking you an hour or more to get anything done. b:cute

best solution for cancer ever: ignore people with cancer

Xarathox - Dreamweaver

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

best solution for cancer ever: ignore people with cancer

5 aps =/= cancer.

From what I've seen, both in game on on the boards, 5 aps is still a minority. The cost of just getting it is pretty steep. Most of the players who do have it spent 1 year or more working towards it. Even a CSer couldn't get it over ****ing night.

Another problem I see on the boards is that everyone assumes that anyone with 5 aps can now magically solo any instance in the game. It takes roughly +10-12 refines on every. ****ing. item for a BM or sin with max interval to even remotely solo the hardest instances. Even then, they damn well better be charmed, stocked up on HP food (lots of it) and have the right genie with the right skills for a specific boss to even pull it off.

Yes, a 5aps BM/sin with +12 everything can now solo 3-2/3-3. That's roughly 6-7bil invested in gear in order to attempt it. That still doesn't mean it's even remotely easy.

TigerLily - Lost City

Only solution is making casters and other ranged classes as effective as 5.0 Sins/BMs inside instances. Give them a freaking +50 blessing and a channeling boost, make instances more aoe based, more bosses with low mag def and high phy def etc. Nerfing is not a solution since its already kinda hard to make coins in-game by farming compared to charging zen.

If i run Nirvana with a non-interval squad where people doesn't have 4/5 aps it takes like 30-35 minutes a run and on average you get 400k. I mean i easily make over 1 mil an hour grinding DQ 91 and selling it to rank9 buyers. Nirvana doesn't even come close to that unless you go with a full int squad that rushes it in 15-20 minutes and doesn't afk in-between the runs.

Most instances aren't even profitable anymore unless you run it with an interval squad, that's the problem if you nerf aps.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

instances arent profitable cause of aps, you know

aps'ers over-loved nv and tts and made mats prices go down*

but anyway, your solution seems not too bad



(*o, and thats why 5 aps is a cancer btw) b:pleased

Ursa - Dreamweaver

oh please, S T F U about 5 aps cost.
I sold 2 lunar rings, pants , top, weapon from my wiz and got a 4 aps BM. Not with a bit of farming, 5 aps.
I farmed r8 for wiz to get his gear back, I have r8 on BM.
And I spend at max 4 hrs/day ingame. At max.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

your wizz is a woman