Archer or Sin?

tearvalerin wrote: »

ignore poorsuc, he regularly just complains about how hard things are, and how much his mage sucks in TW, wahwahwahwah bawwwww. he has no idea how to tw, michael kind of shows this every time he makes a post.

Jealous much that I make more sense than you do?

And wasn't Okeano actually complaining that sins suck in TW? Or does that only apply to me complaining because, omg, I shattered your crappy gamestyle that a grandma does with no coordination? b:bye

Which is you, since you rely on personal attacks, you must have some issues. You are jealous because you have to resort to that kinda thing since you cannot properly argument (like most trolls). Maybe you're in the wrong thread...

ZackXz - Harshlands wrote: »

Thread is meant to be about which class I should go from the things I stated so far Im close to going Archer, mainly because you argue about sin TW so much that I think they do suck in TW I'd rather just pick sh*t out and blast it to pieces rather than ninja all over the place to get 5 kills per TW.

Sins have very limited uses in TW, as many people pointed out. If you plan to TW a lot I'd go archer, because you can still achieve high dps as an archer, even if it's not as high as a sin. If you plan on mainly farming and solo-PKing, then sin would probably be better.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Do you realize what you are saying? Or is logic something you can't comprehend?

For a TW to be 'challenging' and not a steamroll, your faction's total kill-to-death ratio should not go over 1 by too much -- 2 at best. Now, cata barbs, BMs and clerics usually don't score many kills (unless metal mages and w/e), leaving the extra killing to the squishies.

Wtf?? Dude, you can die more than the other team and still win. The winner is whoever takes out the other crystal first, not whoever has the best KPD. So yeah, if you've got an entire squad who can only get kills every 90 seconds, then hell, good luck defending your crystal. You're not gonna be able to slow the cata squad much on their march into your base, either.
And the focus is winning, not making it challenging. Either way, I don't see what any of your points have to do with a kill every 90 seconds being acceptable in TW. You're trying to argue that it's justified for the sin to only get one kill every 90 seconds because the sin isn't dying himself, and thus his KPD is positive. No, it's not ok, because while the sin is focusing on getting a great KPD, your crystal is friggin' dying. Often the DDs should be ready to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the team.

No I haven't played a sin but yes I'm in a faction with sins. Without bothering you with details, because you won't believe them anyway, this sin tells me "lol I kill maybe 7 people before I die" or "I **** through cleric's plume shell after headhunt". (tt99 & some nirvana geared cleric)

Well there's your problem: you're quoting sins.

I dunno if you've noticed, but 90% of the sin community is arrogant d-bags who would gladly exaggerate their skill. I honestly don't think we have a single cata cleric who's died to a sin.

And what did I just tell you not to go alone -- if you pop out alone and expect to get a kill amongst enemies only, you are going to get ***** no doubt. That's like a wizard going in front leeroy style..

Are you mad??? You've got 6 squishy people all surrounding the same target? ONE AOE. ONE. That's all it takes. Maybe they'll manage that one target all together, but all six of them go down in the process. Again, if you had a squad of anything else, you could take down that target and then continue to harrass. Sins are all-in and then they die, sometimes not even managing to kill their target.

There's a reason the squishies are the sole damage dealers in TW: because of range. Range gives them the offense AND defense neccesary to damage everything within a 30 meter radius and to retreat when things get too hot. If you try to attack a cata squad with 5aps BMs, sure their damage output is top-notch and they can stunlock the cata squad completely, but they're gonna get the **** AOEed out of them. That's when Earth Vector drops, that's when BIDS drops, that's when BIDS drops again and that's when the BMs drop. Same principle with sins, except they're 10x squishier than BMs.

And that's why BMs are mainly AOE stunners and debuffers in TW. Sins don't have AOE stun, and thus they can't even do that. They're pretty damn useless in TW.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

??? Dead people in TW get a 30 sec seal upon releasing/revived, I'd say that's a pretty strong advantage you get. Cata barbs can't survive alone, you know. If your DDs (and sins) manage to kill all but their cata barbs, something tells me the barbs are going to be screwed.

1 kill but no death = outnumbering. I don't think I need to elaborate more than that.

Same target? b:question

I stopped reading there.



But ok let me say this in a different way. Sins don't suck in TW. What suck, though, is ranged DDs who tab-target and attack and think they wtfpwn by doing it randomly. No, without assist attacks and coordination and multiple-target disabling you are going to suck no matter your class. Unless, of course, you are OP or you are steamrolling them.

Assist attack = for ranged DDs. Not for sins. Sins need to disable people at the same time, not stun the same person 6 times at the same time.

Have you ever had sins pop out near the cleric, but then just as you are about to tab-target and hit it, you get stunned by another sin yourself? Or is it because of your mentality that they aren't even employed to do that -- being an underpopulated class in TW and all? No wonder you don't see it if people have your simple "tactics".

if borsuc were a dog... he'll be the type whose bark is worse than his bite. someone with with over 4x post as his pvp kills.

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Have you ever about to wtfpwn a wiz then BAM another Wiz seals you then BAM a HF lands on you while Archer dropped BoA and a Wiz dropped BIDS? What timing right!?

Seriously. I'm SURE you know a lot more about Sins in TW from hearing stories than Sins that actually TW'ed. Like I said, gtfo already and go TW on a Sin then record it and show us how OP Sin is in TW.

Yeah I do that all the time -- only problem is the enemy BMs won't be sealed. A worthy sacrifice for the sin, some prefer to go for BM cause... he will AOE stun, where sin is on only one target.

Like I said if everyone decides to kill you, you will get ****ed, like any class, maybe except barbs. But that doesn't mean it's good for the opponent, even if you die in the process. All that focus means they wasted a lot of potential time on only one target. Unless you go alone, of course.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

if borsuc were a dog... he'll be the type whose bark is worse than his bite. someone with with over 4x post as his pvp kills.

It's ok, I'm a carebear, I never PK. But I think we were talking about TW. I don't think anyone here seriously thinks assassins suck in PK, right?

And of course I'm not pro enough to camp lowbies. Never said I was.
I wish I could have your pro 2-year-old-kid arguments though.

By that logic, BMs suck in TW because they go and AOE stun and support instead of killing.
Cata barbs suck because they don't get any kills, and clerics are worthless.
Oh and sins suck because without the ironguard combo they don't get AOE kills. Nevermind the fact that all these people are needed for a stupid ranged DD to even pull his **** off. (well not all, but you get the point)

Yes BM AOE stuns but you see him coming, you can seal him even with Bodhisatva on or just plain focus fire (assist attack) and drop him before he does it.

That's where sin's disabling come in: make sure BM does not get focus fired.

And of course, there's the killing part of sins. Not great, but not worthless.

I was only talking about a K/D ratio in terms of it being > 1 in most cases for a sin. Obviously if you manage to pull of an AOE with a ranged class, it'll be higher. I never denied ranged DDs having best K/D ratio I even said so specifically.

This whole thing started with "sins suck in TW" that's the thing I'm arguing against why do people bring up stuff completely non relevant?

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yes BM AOE stuns but you see him coming, you can seal him even with Bodhisatva on or just plain focus fire (assist attack) and drop him before he does it.

That's where sin's disabling come in: make sure BM does not get focus fired.

And of course, there's the killing part of sins. Not great, but not worthless.

I was only talking about a K/D ratio in terms of it being > 1 in most cases for a sin. Obviously if you manage to pull of an AOE with a ranged class, it'll be higher. I never denied ranged DDs having best K/D ratio I even said so specifically.

This whole thing started with "sins suck in TW" that's the thing I'm arguing against why do people bring up stuff completely non relevant?

You've never been to a god damn TW, have you?

I don't even know what you're trying to argue anymore. "Making sure the BM does not get focused down" is not a job, nor is it a wise idea to waste effort on trying to stop the BM before he AOEs. Yeah, if you see him running along the way and you're not preoccupied, shoot him. Don't drop everything you're doing and order your squad to kill him though. For this reason, giving him a personal bodyguard in the form of a sin seems...what the hell? I mean, this plan isn't even practical. How the hell are the sins supposed to know/find ALL the people that are gonna notice the BM and shoot him down? That plan is COMPLETELY unrealistic; it'd require sins with a super range of sight and cat-like reflexes.

Second, the issue is there's not a single thing a sin can do in TW that another class can't do better. Sins seem overpowered to many, yes, but their limit and main weakness in game is that they can only take out one opponent and one opponent ONLY. Stealth, kill, Stealth, kill. That's all they can do.


So if sins don't suck at TW, tell me what job they can do better than every other class. BMs stun because they have AOE stun and a good handful of support AOES. Barbs pull cata because they're the best candidates. Venos purge because they're the only ones who can (regularly) purge. Clerics heal because they're the best healers. Wizzies deal damage because they have the highest magic damage. Archers are very VERY vital to TW because they've got high DPH and they're the best candidates to take out the wizzies; they're the physical damage version of a wizzie. Psys can also be put into this plan as a DD alongside wizzies or as a support, buffing up their cata or debuffing the other team's cata squad. As a DD they can 6 second stun OR immobilize, which can be incredibly useful for helping a team focus down a target, or as a support they can debuff the enemy cata's charm and soulburn it's cleric.
Now tell me, what do sins do better than ANYONE else TW-wise? TW they lose their stealth advantage (unless they want horribad kills per minute), they lack the AOEs neccesary to take on/stop multiple targets and range is more important than ever, which they don't have. What's worse, they have DPS over DPH, and DPS is the type of damage that gives everyone the chance to Expel/Absolute Domain. They have nothing. NOTHING.


So again, tell us what a sin specializes in TW-wise, and this time, before posting something, please ask yourself if an Archer/Wizzie/Psy/Veno wouldn't be able to do that job better. Good luck.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

I thought I already said I was talking about "pushes". Or do you just run like a headless chicken in TW or leeroy style?

Now I'll be brief since this thread has kinda degenerated at this point, it's not even about archers vs sins more like why sins suck or not in TW... but anyway, I'll answer your question.

What are sins good at? Stunning enemies without seeing it coming when you are focused on something else.

In your example? Yes, if you see a BM coming, and you see nothing else, what are you going to do? Stay still and wait for sin to stun so you can seal the sin? Or seal the BM?

What if you get stunned while trying to disable/seal the BM by the sin? I'd call that mission accomplished -- not only you have been stunned, you have to use AD or some survival skill or you're ****ed.

Can you depend on your mates? Oh wait, they've just been stunned by other sins too and have to fend off for themselves -- all this time, when you focus on the sins and possibly BM, enemy wizards and archers can get a shot at your precious DDs since, you know, you basically ignore them -- either them or the sins.

So in short, what are sins good at? Disabling people without seeing them coming. Heck the whole point of sins is that you don't see them coming. And they have an enormous arsenal of control skills -- even on anti-stun targets they have a 4 sec seal with 8 sec cooldown. I'd argue they can also stealth nuke people (i.e without seeing them coming, similar to a sutra or instant channel wiz nuke) with ironguard but you won't believe it even though we do it all the time.

Ok three things:


1) WHO is going to seal the BM? The only class (among the main DDs) with a really nice seal skill is Wizard.

2) HOW is the sin going to stop the wizard? I dunno if you've noticed, but the casting time on Force of Will means that sin either needs to be psychic or he needs god-like reflexes.

3) WHY and HOW would the your DDs focus down the DDs who just got stunned by the sins? They're just as unaware about when the sin will strike as the enemies themselves, so they're not gonna catch on super quick. Yeah you could tell them in advance in vent that sins will stun the opposing DDs now, but I sincerely doubt something like this is what should be announced in vent; there's much more important **** to be announced.
Second, didn't your BM just stun the cata squad? THEN ATTACK THE CATA SQUAD, WHAT THE HELL!?! Why on earth would you focus on stunned DDs standing on the back line when the BM just successfully stunned/debuffed the group up front? The entire purpose of the BM was to give your DDs a shot to do what they do best. Since the BM's targets are likely stunned AND debuffed, and since there's SEVERAL of them all in AOE range, they're a much better choice than the sin's lone targets that are way in the back and don't have a single debuff on them. The plan you're suggesting defeats the ENTIRE purpose of having a BM, though the BM is far more effective than the sin!



And I don't even get the entire purpose of your post, because last post I made I was questioning how useful defending the BM even is.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

It's ok, I'm a carebear, I never PK. But I think we were talking about TW. I don't think anyone here seriously thinks assassins suck in PK, right?

And of course I'm not pro enough to camp lowbies. Never said I was.
I wish I could have your pro 2-year-old-kid arguments though.

i guess no one told you that tw kills also counts toward your pk kills. with a kill count of 250ish... its clearly obvious that you never really twed. i don't really pk either... but i still have about 10x your pk kills... cause 90% of them are tw kills.

edit: i tw in an offensive type of squad. and i can guarantee that i killed (count) more sins... then sins kill (count) me. there is maybe half a dozen sins that can reliably kill me on the server... all others is just going to make a poor attempt at a kill before getting dropped by my guild-mates. even from that half a dozen sins that can kill me... they generally all get dropped before i even release. furthermore its not out of the realm of possibility for me to crit 10k+ from afar on the same sins that can reliably drop me... and in a tw sins don't survive a 10k crit.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Lol sins are such a joke in TW that last weekend vs. Radiance I didn't see a single one. They probably took them all out of the TW for uselessness, as only the best geared sins can contribute enough to be worth their slot in a maxed 80 vs 80 TW.

I think i saw one... then my arrow saw one... then the floor saw one... then it was never seen again.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yeah, probably against noob factions where you 1-shot people all the time instead of them 1-shotting you. Sorry to break it to you but I mostly fight with people above my gear, I get frequently 1-shot by rank 8 archers, and that's plenty to get usually 5 kills per death, I think.


The only amount of "decent" TWs I had where opposing faction wasn't a steamroll (and thus me barely getting a few kills) is like 3. Funny thing, I focus on sealing people first and assist attacking with my squad -- maybe a foreign concept to you, because we rarely can't take someone down in 1 hit. I don't get many kills but I don't give a **** since only PK kids focus on that. I could drop random BT on the weakest targets that are probably best suited for archers to take down but that would waste 2 sparks when my squad needs me. My focus is to win TW and push them back not to get the most kills.

Short: yes of course I know where my "kills" came from (like I care), where else would they come from? Events? Tournament? I barely get 1-2 kills at best on those. (remember it's kills, not damage or assist kill).

That comment was extreme childish and presumptuous, But I forgive you because you're from Trolling Tides and you are ignorant of guild dynamics on HT. Anyone who knows the situation on HT wouldn't make a **** comment like that.

Edit: Oh you edited. Guess I'll add the rest of your quote too.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yeah, probably against noob factions where you 1-shot people all the time instead of them 1-shotting you. Sorry to break it to you but I mostly fight with people above my gear, I get frequently 1-shot by rank 8 archers, and that's plenty to get usually 5 kills per death, I think.

The only amount of "decent" TWs I had where opposing faction wasn't a steamroll (and thus me barely getting a few kills) is like 3. Funny thing, I focus on sealing people first and assist attacking with my squad -- maybe a foreign concept to you, because we rarely can't take someone down in 1 hit. I don't get many kills but I don't give a **** since only PK kids focus on that. I could drop random BT on the weakest targets that are probably best suited for archers to take down but that would waste 2 sparks when my squad needs me. My focus is to win TW and push them back not to get the most kills.

Short: yes of course I know where my "kills" came from (like I care), where else would they come from? Events? Tournament? I barely get 1-2 kills at best on those. (remember it's kills, not damage or assist kill).

1. 1-shot by rank 8 archers? you mean rank 8 archers like me.
2. 5 k/d ratio will put you somewhere in the top 5 wizards of any server (even if you farm kills). so are you suggesting that you are one of the 5 best wizards that RT has to offer. if that so... oh god RT is pathetic.
3. a 5 k/d ratio wiz that gets frequently 1 shotted by r8 archers... lol... nice job farming for that k/d.
4. you "focus on sealing people first" but "rarely can't take someone down in 1 hit". if you can take them down in 1 hit... what the point of sealing them?
5. while you focus on pushing them back... i'll focus on killing them.