Archer or Sin?

Borsuc - Raging Tide

1. I rest my case. Of course OP gears are going to get you a lot of kills against poorly geared people (like me). b:bye
2. No, I just don't die that often, because I mostly assist attack with my squad. I'm not going to comment on being "best" skillwise -- that would be arrogant and subjective. But my gear is terrible. Probably best piece I have is tt99+7 weapon. b:surrender
3. Most of the time the archers are focused by someone in squad and I get to assist.
4. Well that was a mistake, should have been "can" not "can't" I apologize. b:shutup And I was meaning "we rarely can take someone in 1-hit", we meaning the squad (and 1-hit = whole squad hits once). I suppose that gives you a perspective how not OP we are but we still manage to push. (well it's not fair to say so, of course, there are a lot of OP people in the faction... but I'm talking about our squad's effect in TW).
5. That's great, give me rank8 weapon and I could. Then again, you need better tactics when you don't overpower the enemy.

Seriously I have nothing against you... but I believe we're in different worlds gear-wise. I can't "kill people" by myself, unlike you -- I need to assist attack. (unless I get some BT one-shots, but again, I'm there to support my squad, not kill as many as possible).

Excuse me for having bad gear and knowing how to have tactics better than "tab-hit-dead" on weaker opponents. I have to use proper tactics because I can't do that.

I'm not implying you don't have tactics or anything -- that would be hypothetical and ignorant. I don't even know you. On the other hand, you were the one to start this off against me :P

EDIT: oh and my K/D may be high but the actual kills I get are pretty low-ish... for a 30min TW maybe 15-25 kills at most. I can't do more with my gear. Besides I'm wondering when was this about me, I'm not even a sin or an archer. (but maybe it shows some light to people who think wizards are OP -- when they mean, their weapons are).

Okeano - Harshlands

In an Archer vs Sin in TW thread... you got Archers telling you Sins suck, you got Sin (who actually did 3-hr long TWs between top 2 factions) telling you Sins suck... take my advice already and go borrow a Sin to TW on? Stop wasting people's time already.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Nah but when someone says wizards are not OP, like me and a few others (yes wizards), we get a different response? Ironically those people always have above-average weapons compared to opponent's armor.

But you know, it doesn't matter to me if sins suck or not. Because you can't measure that. I did mention a few tactics and strategies where sins are good at -- at least some people might take them into consideration when deciding archer or sin for TW and make their own conclusions whether they suck or not. (they have obviously very different roles)

Ok I'm done with this thread. You guys are no doubt experienced but sometimes you may want to try some different tactics, it may work out it's all I'm saying.

Sorry this degenerated the way it did... not even sure when. Certainly wasn't as bad when it first started.

Azzazin - Dreamweaver

'Sins suck in TW'. Not a great statement, really. A better statement would be 'the number of things that a sin can do in TW better than other classes is limited'.

Allow me to elaborate.

When it comes to doing aoes, do not underestimate range. Being able to hit a bunch of people and have time to react when you see somebody headed your way is very important in the often-laggy, blur of activity that constitutes TW. Archers can more safely do aoes, and can wizzies and psychics.

However, to say that a sin cannot do well in TW is nonsense. As with any class, the brains behind the keyboard determines everything. Here are some things sins do really well.

1) Scouting. Sins are so omnipresent nowadays that perhaps you forget where your intel is coming from. Guess who! (Waves).

2) Picking off isolated targets. Not all TW is group pk. As is already well established beyond doubt, sins excel at 1 versus 1 pk. So as a sin, if you wish, you can seek out ppl who are isolated from their group and pick them off.

3) Aoes: The combo mentioned by somebody else is inadequate. The real combo is this:

The TW Aoe combo

Buff up with the normal buffs used for aoeing. Deaden nerves (can't get one hit), tidal protection (50% chance to evade the status effect of the skill... this could save you from a wizard seal), and chill of the deep (adds 30 attack levels to slow your attack speed some; however, we don't care about attack speed when doing an aoe).

Start. (399 chi)

Power dash (199 chi). 8 seconds of really high crit. Why power dash first? In my experience, starting with maze steps first is a bad idea, since it runs out too soon before you can force stealth. And I have never had anybody with reflexes fast enough to tab to me and seal or sleep me before I can then press maze steps. Remember, if you are clicked on another person, when somebody attacks you, you do not automatically reselect to that person.
Maze steps (99 chi). 10seconds of stun resist.
Apothecary item of choice to make you invincible to damage.

-pause-
If you were in a rush and you attacked first, you should now have everybody's attention. In the worst case scenario, a wizard seals you. Stop the combo, and force stealth. Another non-win scenario is if two or 3 people chain absolute domain. However, IF you were the first person to attack these ppl and they are all focused on you, this invincible target, and they use their genies, you have just made them distracted from the rest of your squad. Lets not forget the bm coming in to aoe stun, the wiz in the back getting ready to hit with some aoes, etc, etc, etc.

On the other hand, in the more-likely scenario that the ppl you attacked were already engaged in combo, there is a decent chance that not everybody will notice you right away. In that case, you are free to resume the combo with no impediments.
-resume-

Inner harmony (instant 2 sparks, 299 chi)
Subsea strike (99 chi). Aoe dmg, amps 30% for 8s (15s for demon). If the squad you are with is well coordinated, the bm should hf right about now.
Bramble rage. Genie skill which has a high chance to crit, is amped, and possibly hfed. Well hf would be a luxury, but an amped, crit bramble rage hits like a TRUCK. Used against light armor, heavy armor, or low hp arcane, it is very, very deadly.
Earthen Rift. Aoe dmg 400% of wep. The demon version adds 2m more of range, which means it can hit more ppl.
Force stealth

So lets take a look at what we just did. First of all, we did not die. Second of all, we performed 3 aoes, most of which probably crit, and all of which likely did a lot of damage per hit to all in the area. If people aren't dead, they should be close to dying. Enter your squad.

So what if the cleric expels? Continue the combo anyways, and you have a good chance of killing the others. If it turns out the others die, don't even bother force stealthing, just go after the cleric when expel runs out.

I can say I have used this combo to great effect in many situations.

Incidentally, the problem of bramble can be resolved by using a hp pot when you plan your attack. Or if you are privileged enough to have the lvl 100 skill 'blood frenzy' (a blood-paint on steroids), you can heal yourself by attacking, even if you do take large reflect damage. Incidentally, Okeano, those numbers seem realllly high, I have never seen numbers like that for a reflect on cleric. What is your gear like?



tl:dr

To sum up, sins can do three things pretty well.
1) Scout
2) Pick off isolated ppl.
3) A very hard-hitting aoe combo combining physical and magic dmg, which can be executed from stealth, and has the real possibility of killing both arcanes and heavy armor characters.

That being said, archers are probably still a superior choice. But to say sins 'suck' in TW as a RULE? Absurd.

-Azzazin

Traz - Dreamweaver

ZackXz - Harshlands wrote: »

I'm really stuck inbetween what char to play, I've been archer for a long while while my sin is near 8x, But still I cant decide, I hear sins are OP and I don't feel like being owned by a sin, but I also hear they're boring while I loved archer for a long time I really am stuck in this massive dillema, the fact that almost every archer I know has a sin alt is is rerolling >< Help me decide please guys I really can't choose, Everytime I watch a Transcend vid (My inspiration for Archer) I want to continue being an archer but I'm really stressing over what to go. I would play both but I can't see myself afford to level both chars to 100 then kitting them out differently I'm a pvp person not really pve, I like TW alot and I enjoy playing a class that doesn't drop easy in PvP and Is really fun, any advice?

PvP = archer
PvE = sin

This also is determined by the type of gear you can give it or go out an buy. I got my sin all it needs for 5.0 an it will be solo'ing instances. PvP i'm not overly caring about on a sin, but if I did I would still like to try an sin first.

PS If you could make 25m a day on just solo'ing instances I'm pretty sure you'd turn into a PvE person too. b:laugh

Borsuc - Raging Tide

@Azzazzin: I feel dumb right now after reading your post, for expressing myself so poorly. But I even learned from it

Sage sins in TW > demon ones... it's all about skill spam, and Subsea has 50% amp. (yes the sin I was talking about is sage with all but 2 skills, twin strike and something else I don't remember)

Traz - Dreamweaver

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

@Azzazzin: I feel dumb right now after reading your post, for expressing myself so poorly. But I even learned from it

Sage sins in TW > demon ones... it's all about skill spam, and Subsea has 50% amp. (yes the sin I was talking about is sage with all but 2 skills, twin strike and something else I don't remember)

See this is the problem with just about every post. You even say it SHOULD be better, that doesn't mean it is. Every sage vs. demon and class vs class thread is the same. It doesn't matter if you're sage or demon, archer or sin, if you suck at playing it nothing will be good for you and if you have complete **** gear you'll die just as fast no matter what class/culti you pick.

What EVERYONE keeps talking about are perfect situation of acquiring all the interval gear needed and ASSUMING they all have every demon/sage skill they can get to even make the arguments valid.

To sum it up DECIDE FOR YOURSELF, because everyone on here thinks their opinion is right and personally class vs class and sage vs demon is not a fact based argument it's a total opinion and also based on what gear/skills/playing skills you have.

Rougweee - Dreamweaver

my 1st char on this game was an archer it is nice to play but i think a sin is better ...and it doesn't suck in TW b:laugh

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Nah but when someone says wizards are not OP, like me and a few others (yes wizards), we get a different response? Ironically those people always have above-average weapons compared to opponent's armor.

Heres an idea... ever wonder that their gear is just average... and you're the one thats below average (instead of assuming that you are average).

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

1. I rest my case. Of course OP gears are going to get you a lot of kills against poorly geared people (like me). b:bye

so you think my r8 is op? but here is the thing... there is like a dozen other archer in my guild with r8. which just makes me average.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Heres an idea... ever wonder that their gear is just average... and you're the one thats below average (instead of assuming that you are average).




so you think my r8 is op? but here is the thing... there is like a dozen other archer in my guild with r8. which just makes me average.

Most of my targets are TT90 in armor refined lower (+4 or +5) not +7. Heck I even use attack charms for one-shots. So technically my weapon is above their armor/defenses/refines. Not all of course. That's why we have a squad, we can take even the most OP cash shopper. (we have a +12 everything sin on the server, but bad in skill though)

ZackXz - Harshlands

This entire thread moved from what it was meant to be about to some entirely new topic, Jesus.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

The question you could be asking yourself is what do I like the best to play.It is really up to you to decide on what you want not us.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Most of my targets are TT90 in armor refined lower (+4 or +5) not +7. Heck I even use attack charms for one-shots. So technically my weapon is above their armor/defenses/refines. Not all of course. That's why we have a squad, we can take even the most OP cash shopper. (we have a +12 everything sin on the server, but bad in skill though)

how does that one saying go... oh yea... if there are no tigers in the mountain, the monkeys become the kings. fits this sitution pretty well... LOL.

ZackXz - Harshlands

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

The question you could be asking yourself is what do I like the best to play.It is really up to you to decide on what you want not us.

I agree with you hear and I really enjoy Archer more at the moment, but in other MMORPG's I end up playing one class, spending tons on to get heartbroken when I get owned by another class and end up being bored of my char.