Random:FCC and Venos

Edyn - Dreamweaver · October 2010

HimeJunsei just love your post b:laugh
So honnest and true.
ppl often seem to forget its a game and not a perfect world they can trade for the real one.
Gl to you all

Solandri - Heavens Tear · October 2010

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

For a level 90 Tabby this would be (2060*4/5) 1648, for a same level Dark Wanderer (2779*4/5) 2223. To estimate dps using level 5 bash i would first multiply this average dps times cooldown (8 secs) minus the time required for the skill to land (i believe it's 1.5 secs) and add the equivalent of Bash hitting (200% damage) to finally divide by 8 and obtain dps. Thus (1648*6.5+[2060*2]/8) 1845 for the Tabby and (2223*6.5+[2779*2]/8) 2499 for the Wanderer.

Bash's cooldown happens after the skill fires. So your pet Bashes, normal attacks during 8 sec cooldown, pet starts the 1.5 sec pause before Bashing again, Bash fires, 8 sec cooldown starts, etc. Total cycle time is thus 9.5 sec, not 8 sec. There's also some funniness going on with it. If you sit there with a stopwatch, it'll usually be 10 sec between Bashes, but occasionally you'll get a cycle that takes less time (9 sec I think). I'm not dedicated enough to figure out exactly what's going on there, and Brael did a really long test and came up with an average 9.5 sec, so that's what I use. Your pet's DPS with max level Bash is thus:

[ (pet attack)*(attack speed)*(8 sec of regular attack) + (Bash damage) ] / (9.5 sec total)

Tabby: (2060*.8*8 + 2060*2) / 9.5 = 1821
Wanderer: (2779*.8*8 + 2779*2) / 9.5 = 2457
Herc: (2672*.8*8 + 2672*2) / 9.5 = 2363
Magmite: (3234*.6*8 + 3234*2) / 9.5 = 2315
Scorpion: (3336*.6*8 + 3336*2) / 9.5 = 2388
Marksman: (3162*.5*8 + 3162*2) / 9.5 = 1997

Now, this seems like a lot. We are talking a difference of a whoping 654 damage every second after all. Let's see what it comes down to. For a 10 minute fight it means the kitty would do ([2499*600]-[1845*600]) 392400 less damage which it would need (392400/1845) an extra 212 seconds, or a little over three and a half minutes to make up for. Except a veno pet isn't the only damage dealer. If a pet was responsable for half of the squad's damage (which would be ridiculous) then the difference should go down to about half as well, and if it was a quarter, which let's say for argument's sake is about right for (?) bosses, we are at somewhat less than a minute. A minute out of every ten...

That's pretty much right. It all depends on how valuable the time is to you. The only times I make a big deal about it is on time-critical bosses, and when I was going all-out on TT runs trying to make money for a skill book clip, thinking that anniversary packs and tokens would disappear at the end of September 2009 (hah).

An extra elemental Bash on the Wanderer ([2779*2]-[2223*1.5]/8) adds 278 dps to the Wanderer. The Tabby adds ([2060*2]-[1845+1.5]/8) 169 dps. Now, consider that unlike a Wanderer the kitty can Bash with a herc tanking...

Extra elemental Bashes add damage, but subtract from regular damage (less time for the pet to do regular attacks). The 9.5 sec cycle still remains since you can stack the cooldowns, but the amount of time for regular attacks is reduced. DPS with 2 bashes is then:

Tabby: (2060*.8*6.5 + 2060*2 + 2060*2) / 9.5 = 1995 (+173, 9.5% more)
Wanderer: (2779*.8*6.5 + 2779*2 + 2779*2) / 9.5 = 2691 (+234, 9.5% more)
Magmite: (3234*.6*6.5 + 3234*2 +3234*2) / 9.5 = 2689 (+374, 16.2% more)
Scorpion: (3336*.6*6.5 + 3336*2 + 3336*2) / 9.5 = 2774 (+386, 16.2% more)
Marksman: (3162*.5*6.5 + 3162*2 + 3162*2) / 9.5 = 2413 (+416, 20.8% more)

As you can see, adding a second elemental bash adds a fixed percentage to the pet's DPS, with the percentage depending on the pet's attack rate. The slower the attack rate, the higher the percentage, making slower attacking pets better recipients for extra attack skills.

Another consequence of this is that extremely fast attack pets (i.e. the Phoenix) can actually go into a damage deficit from skills. Say you have a new phoenix and decide to put Bash on it. Bash 1 does 140% of base damage. But it takes away 1.5 sec of regular attacks. Since the phoenix does 1 attack/sec, you're giving up 150% of base damage to gain 140% of base damage. So the phoenix is actually better off using regular attacks than it is using Bash 1. (Bash 2+ becomes worth it if you're so inclined to make a Bash phoenix.)

tweakz · October 2010

Table turning:

Joined a squad for BH 3-3, had 2 clerics. Both said they didn't have and would never get L11 res. -I left squad. Melee DD's are being rejected for Nirvana runs for not having sufficient -int. A Lvl 80 barb was booted from a BH69 squad yesterday for not having survivability to tank the bosses (while a lvl 61 Assassin was taken for weapon token quest).

b:cry -people that only care about leveling and not about being worthy of squad space.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · October 2010

@Solandri, thank you very much for your attention and for taking the time to correct (and more importantly explain) the dps figures.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Bash's cooldown happens after the skill fires. So your pet Bashes, normal attacks during 8 sec cooldown, pet starts the 1.5 sec pause before Bashing again, Bash fires, 8 sec cooldown starts, etc. Total cycle time is thus 9.5 sec, not 8 sec. There's also some funniness going on with it. If you sit there with a stopwatch, it'll usually be 10 sec between Bashes, but occasionally you'll get a cycle that takes less time (9 sec I think). I'm not dedicated enough to figure out exactly what's going on there, and Brael did a really long test and came up with an average 9.5 sec, so that's what I use. Your pet's DPS with max level Bash is thus:

[ (pet attack)*(attack speed)*(8 sec of regular attack) + (Bash damage) ] / (9.5 sec total)

Tabby: (2060*.8*8 + 2060*2) / 9.5 = 1821
Wanderer: (2779*.8*8 + 2779*2) / 9.5 = 2457
Herc: (2672*.8*8 + 2672*2) / 9.5 = 2363
Magmite: (3234*.6*8 + 3234*2) / 9.5 = 2315
Scorpion: (3336*.6*8 + 3336*2) / 9.5 = 2388
Marksman: (3162*.5*8 + 3162*2) / 9.5 = 1997

I should've thought of that and it does seem kind of obvious now that you point it out. Also, simply multiplying attack times attack speed does seem much more simple than my roundabout method of first trying to calculate unskilled dps and using that figure for further calculations, i'll make sure to remember that, as well as consider the cycle 9.5 secs from now on.

That's pretty much right. It all depends on how valuable the time is to you. The only times I make a big deal about it is on time-critical bosses, and when I was going all-out on TT runs trying to make money for a skill book clip, thinking that anniversary packs and tokens would disappear at the end of September 2009 (hah).

I do try to make up for the extra time with caster damage and the extra pet skills. As i've mentioned in some earlier posts i time my attacks so i can spark right after i amp and add Howl and EP to the mix. I also get +176 mag attack from rings (which i think is decent for my level) and use a +2 Grief's Breath with a couple of flawless stones. May not seem like much, but outside of sins and the ocassional well geared DD i'm usually the biggest hitter on squads i usually party with. My hope is this helps bring me close to the damage output of a 6 mag veno using a walker which, as i have mentioned on the thread discussing the axe melee build, i would consider a reasonable expectation for performance

Extra elemental Bashes add damage, but subtract from regular damage (less time for the pet to do regular attacks). The 9.5 sec cycle still remains since you can stack the cooldowns, but the amount of time for regular attacks is reduced. DPS with 2 bashes is then:

Tabby: (2060*.8*6.5 + 2060*2 + 2060*2) / 9.5 = 1995 (+173, 9.5% more)
Wanderer: (2779*.8*6.5 + 2779*2 + 2779*2) / 9.5 = 2691 (+234, 9.5% more)
Magmite: (3234*.6*6.5 + 3234*2 +3234*2) / 9.5 = 2689 (+374, 16.2% more)
Scorpion: (3336*.6*6.5 + 3336*2 + 3336*2) / 9.5 = 2774 (+386, 16.2% more)
Marksman: (3162*.5*6.5 + 3162*2 + 3162*2) / 9.5 = 2413 (+416, 20.8% more)

As you can see, adding a second elemental bash adds a fixed percentage to the pet's DPS, with the percentage depending on the pet's attack rate. The slower the attack rate, the higher the percentage, making slower attacking pets better recipients for extra attack skills.

Another consequence of this is that extremely fast attack pets (i.e. the Phoenix) can actually go into a damage deficit from skills. Say you have a new phoenix and decide to put Bash on it. Bash 1 does 140% of base damage. But it takes away 1.5 sec of regular attacks. Since the phoenix does 1 attack/sec, you're giving up 150% of base damage to gain 140% of base damage. So the phoenix is actually better off using regular attacks than it is using Bash 1. (Bash 2+ becomes worth it if you're so inclined to make a Bash phoenix.)

The effect is quite noticeable and this certainly confirms multi elemental Scorp as the best of all dps. Whether it is practical seems another matter however as i have found pressing Ream (with a lower dps improvement but also a longer cooldown cycle) to be about as much as i can comfortably manage on a boss fight while taking care of other duties (amping, sparking, nuking) and having any sort of idea of what's going on with the squad. I'm usually watching the tank's hp so i know when to apply Threaten for instance. While it may not seem like a much of a factor, i can only imagine what sort of nightmare it must be to keep a couple of extra elemental Bashes going just in time through a long boss fight.

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary · October 2010

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary wrote: »

K, I actually red every post, including the walls and rants(tweakz intended... he does some points, but only for competitive guys). PHEW!

Indeed this Tweakz guy thinks being competitive is more important than have fun in game.

In my experience people who try too hard in games are usually because they've fail in real life(And thus forget to put effort where it does matter and not in a stupid game).

tweakz · October 2010

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary wrote: »

Indeed this Tweakz guy thinks being competitive is more important than have fun in game.

In my experience people who try too hard in games are usually because they've fail in real life(And thus forget to put effort where it does matter and not in a stupid game).

Nice try pathetic troll, but some of use would prefer to spend 10 more minutes enjoying life than wasting it having a cuddly bunny tank for us. -dumbutt!b:kiss

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2010

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary wrote: »

K, I actually red every post, including the walls and rants(tweakz intended... he does some points, but only for competitive guys). PHEW!

I HAVE a herc. And I join fcc's by stating that I do have a herc.

However, after first boss or even before, I pop my Crystal Magmite or Eldergoth Marksman and actually TANK. Ofc, I get "wtf, gtfo, boo, instant kick"or simply 0o. Never stopped me; I play for fun, it's not a competition for me, hence lvl 87 in 2 years of gameplay.

The bosses I found tanking hazardous are the one with freezing bubbles, because in a bubble, only magmite survives and only 80% of time.(yes I said tank, but not really, ofc) Then there is flora, nix, and holeen. Those... only herc can take them, but might be just cause I'm a low lvl n00bz0r.

Also... only pets that are viable even with lag for Adawolf are Kowlin and Eldergoth Marksman(ranged pet). Herc is useless and obsolete for me here. I use Kowlin everytime, cause he has phys AND magic debuff AND awesome speed AND flesh ream.

In a safe bet fcc, I go herc all the way + Kowlin on Wolf boss, 1st boss and Flora.

Great post Hime b:victory

I use the Hercules mostly in FCC for obvious reasons but I also use the kowlin and the ninetail foxy for some particular bosses like Slashy who needs a fast pet that can offer support/debuffs at the same time. Well, honestly I'd love to work on a scorpion and max its skills but I'm currently working on other things. I managed to get my TT90 set and I still need a couple of upgrades + skill upgrades (demon mostly)....

However, as far as other instances are concerned I love not taking the Hercules out unless it's really necessary. Squads become stupid the second they see it. They think the Herc Venomancer should do everything b:sweat I'd only use the Hercules to save the repair of a Barbarian who actually deserves it. Besides, BH repairs are not as big as FCC's.
I stopped doing BHs though. I use FCC if i need exp instead (but the real reason I do FCC is because I freaking love it b:laugh ).

Gotta love doing things that most people don't expect, things that actually work. They need to stop relying on Hercules for every single thing. I love being versatile and flexible

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary · October 2010

tweakz wrote: »

Nice try pathetic troll, but some of use would prefer to spend 10 more minutes enjoying life than wasting it having a cuddly bunny tank for us. -dumbutt!b:kiss

User:tweakz
Join Date:12 Jan

Date:13 Jan
Medal:Stay logged in for at least 12 hours straight.

LMAO b:laugh

sleepcat · October 2010

tweakz wrote: »

Table turning:

Joined a squad for BH 3-3, had 2 clerics. Both said they didn't have and would never get L11 res.

Maybe they're so pro at healing that they never had to res anyone in their squad before? Just a thought. :O

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2010

I hate going off topic but....

Level11 Revive doesn't benefit the Cleric at all and it's expensive so I completely understand that some people refuse to buy it and prefer to spend those coins on refines and shards for their own benefit. It's not like a Hercules which does benefit the Venomancer a lot.
Lvl10 Revive is still very good and the squad members will lose little exp compared to the Cleric and you know some Clerics can't afford buying Guardian Scroll all the time. It's like with the teleport stone. You say 10k is nothing but if you use it everyday it eats your money little by little.

Anyway, let's get back on topic now.

Silest - Sanctuary · October 2010

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary wrote: »

User:tweakz
Join Date:12 Jan

Date:13 Jan
Medal:Stay logged in for at least 12 hours straight.

LMAO b:laugh

Uhmm..I'm pretty sure most everyone has that from the their first day playing..

Edit: I just think if I get in one more fail FCC squad, I will mentally kill lots of people on sanc..one by one. Really..it's turning me into an EVIL player.

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary · October 2010

tweakz wrote: »

It appears fun to you is pissing others off, pathetic troll.

It appears fun to you is pissing others off, pathetic troll.

nuff said.

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary · October 2010

HimeJunsei just love your post
So honnest and true.
ppl often seem to forget its a game and not a perfect world they can trade for the real one.
Gl to you all

Thanks Edyn!:)

Gotta love doing things that most people don't expect, things that actually work. They need to stop relying on Hercules for every single thing. I love being versatile and flexible

Yeah, Desdi, like I say to every veno I hear complaining about its class: be happy you're a veno, the others most likely struggle to the end of the day. I may not be lvl 100 but I enjoy my playing time.

tweakz wrote: »

Nice try pathetic troll, but some of use would prefer to spend 10 more minutes enjoying life than wasting it having a cuddly bunny tank for us. -dumbutt!b:kiss

Again... need I requote you?

Little Tweaks, you're the troll. You're using your brain all wrong. You can troll God for existing or not (makes sense? no? Tweakz can troll that).

Anyway... what do you think of the OP 1st post?
Got a real honest true answer? Or just flaming?

P.S. I bet you'd have a heart attack if I'd pop a magmite in yourFCC team. Hehehe. Now really... please troll some more.. I know you can't stop. Number of posts said it all.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · October 2010

tweakz wrote: »

Nice try pathetic troll, but some of use would prefer to spend 10 more minutes enjoying life than wasting it having a cuddly bunny tank for us. -dumbutt!b:kiss

LOL, you actually thought that was me? b:laugh

And seriously man, if time playing doesn't count as enjoying life to you, then what the hell are you doing even logging on? b:chuckle

Silest - Sanctuary · October 2010

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary wrote: »

HimeJunsei just love your post
So honnest and true.
ppl often seem to forget its a game and not a perfect world they can trade for the real one.
Gl to you all

Thanks Edyn!:)

Gotta love doing things that most people don't expect, things that actually work. They need to stop relying on Hercules for every single thing. I love being versatile and flexible

Yeah, Desdi, like I say to every veno I hear complaining about its class: be happy you're a veno, the others most likely struggle to the end of the day. I may not be lvl 100 but I enjoy my playing time.
[/COLOR]

Oh god, more off topic(because it's fun), but yeah I played on my 65psy a few days ago and.....after 5 fights, I went back to veno ~_~.

Alphae - Lost City · October 2010

Silest - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh god, more off topic(because it's fun), but yeah I played on my 65psy a few days ago and.....after 5 fights, I went back to veno ~_~.

I have so much trouble on alts because I love veno so much .-. My favorite alts are probably psy and wizard. I absolutely can't stand melee classes, I can barely bear to play an archer. But I love veno.

Oscars_SOUL - Lost City · October 2010

my barb is lv96 in lost city and i want more veno in fcc and less sin.
not herc veno i tank all the time if the pet out agro me well that is fine lol still i love
giving hand my own veno is 85 herc less love it cos i am purely fox unique gamepley
cos of HA and AA.

if ur on lost city and 90 veno and i aint on a frost pm me i wont boot u as long as u spark me _Ghoul_ is my barb and 2 hell with that fail mentallity of Tweaks lol u dont need herc 2 join my frost party b:pleased

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I hate going off topic but....

Level11 Revive doesn't benefit the Cleric at all and it's expensive so I completely understand that some people refuse to buy it and prefer to spend those coins on refines and shards for their own benefit. It's not like a Hercules which does benefit the Venomancer a lot.
Lvl10 Revive is still very good and the squad members will lose little exp compared to the Cleric and you know some Clerics can't afford buying Guardian Scroll all the time. It's like with the teleport stone. You say 10k is nothing but if you use it everyday it eats your money little by little.

Anyway, let's get back on topic now.

This , some people need to understand that not all things are supposed to be done in a *certain* way b:thanks

tweakz · October 2010

Oh, I'd love being the cleric with L10 res in a 2 cleric squad for BH3-3 with another cleric that has L11 res. I'm sure they'd love to hear that I'll never get L11 res. I'm sure I'll get just as many Nirvana opportunities as well. What do you mean Herc's benefit veno? Veno's aren't the ones that get repair bills saved! by them! Excuse me, gotta stick my head up my butt so I can fit in around here. b:chuckle

Malego - Heavens Tear · October 2010

I certainly don't mind an unherced veno in a frost I'm in. I've never complained before and I'm not about to start. Pass sparks, amp bosses and purge holeen doing damage along the way. That's all I expect out of venos becuase barbs are made to tank, venos are not.

Solandri - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I hate going off topic but....

Level11 Revive doesn't benefit the Cleric at all and it's expensive so I completely understand that some people refuse to buy it and prefer to spend those coins on refines and shards for their own benefit. It's not like a Hercules which does benefit the Venomancer a lot.

That way of looking at it is very short-sighted. It's a classic Prisoner's Dilemma scenario. That's where if you do a one-dimensional analysis looking only at how a decision affects you but not others ("Am I better off with Revive 11 but short 20 mil, or without it but with 20 mil?"), you come up with one "best answer". But the solution space is actually two-dimensional, sloped in one direction along one axis (the axis of self-benefit), but in another direction along the other axis (the axis of benefit to others). The slope of the second axis is steeper, and so when you do a two-dimensional analysis, you come up with a different "best answer."

That is, if you consider the simplified case of 2 clerics who always play together, if each cleric only considers their individual situation, their conclusion will be that they are best off not buying Revive 11. But if both of them don't buy it, they end up at the worst possible outcome (both lose exp with every death). If they both do the thing counter to their self-interest and buy it, they arrive at the best possible outcome (neither loses exp unless both die, and if both die they are they are still better off since only the cleric who goes to town loses as much exp as the Revive 10 case while the second cleric loses no exp). And this is not even considering the secondary benefit of having your friends level faster due to not losing exp.

I don't really care about losing exp so I'm not going to criticize any individual cleric for not buying Revive 11. But if they flat-out refuse to buy it, it tells me that they make decisions based primarily on how it affects themselves, not on how it affects others. I will prefer the Revive 11 cleric for that reason alone. If we get into a screwed up fight, the cleric who refuses to buy Revive 10 is more likely to cut and run. Individually, the best decision for each person is to run to save themselves, leaving the others to die. But if everyone does that, everyone dies. Whereas if everyone puts the welfare of their group ahead of their own and sticks around to fight, they have a better chance of winning.

Desdi - Sanctuary · October 2010

Well, I was mostly referring to people who doesn't have much money to begin with (that's why I said "some"). Those who can afford them should buy them if they don't solo most of the time because I do know that lvl11 has a big advantage (-channeling or long range often comes handy). I guess I didn't make my point clear enough b:chuckle I simply get angry when some people think everybody can afford or have or can charge zen and obtain loads of coins.

Thank you once again for posting a very insightful comment Solandri

EDIT: I just want to mention that I'm not the kind of person who would run for their life. I always try to do my best in squads and protect the cleric at all costs (or whoever needs to be protected)

tweakz · October 2010

Malego - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Pass sparks, amp bosses and purge holeen doing damage along the way. That's all I expect out of venos becuase barbs are made to tank, venos are not.

I suppose you tanked Manta VIP and can hold aggro against 5aps BMs or against me with multiple mobs. To tank just because your class gets more HP per vit is short sighted, and reminds me of the complaints I read from others like a high level wiz getting kicked when invited to tank fb59. Herc has 70% reflect melee, Lv10 or sage Bramble is only 60%. Herc tanking frees up Cleric to DD, and you to use Human form (More DD). Since most venos do pathetic dps, you wont be missing much by having Herc tank. Herc on boss [?] in FF gets no dmg reduction, while other tanks should be on adds. Don't be surprised by people dropping out of your squad when you demand to be the tank. I've done it to a few Barbs that insisted on wasting time and putting the squad at risk.

***

In addition to what Solandri says above, I'd much more be inclined to put my toon's life in peril to save a cleric with L11 res than one with L1, and I'd be much more forgiving to a cleric that cut and ran to save their life if they had L11 res. When doing Nirvana soon after the change was made to make it harder: that L11 res came in handy! If it weren't for it: we would have gave up and fallen behind other farmers. I'm sure the cleric that had it there has gotten more back from it than they put in already.

Malego - Heavens Tear · October 2010

I don't insist to tank. I just don't insist the veno have a herc. If they don't, its fine with me I'll gladly do the tanking. I find it fun and I think I'm pretty good at boss tanking, check the TT topic.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary · October 2010

I have a lvl 9 revive and it is staying like that for sometime sure there maybe other with demon or sage revive but what other skills do they have at lvl 11.It is best to keep others alive without reviving them.What is the lose of 10% of your hp as you can get that back in no time and if you PK or TW you may lose it anyway.

I got other skill to think about as a Cleric to keep squads alive and myself as well as my attack skills.

To tweaks What lvl 11 res are we talking about Demon or Sage?

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary · October 2010

tweakz wrote: »

I suppose you tanked Manta VIP and can hold aggro against 5aps BMs or against me with multiple mobs. To tank just because your class gets more HP per vit is short sighted,

Barbs have a set of skills that other classes doesen't have.
And LOL your Herc can keep agro from 5 aps BMs?,Your Herc can swim to tank Mantavip?

I've seen Barb tank mantavip,not yet Swimming Hercs lmao.

Oh btw,if a Herc'ed Veno get killed in TT/Nirvana/Whatever his Herc can't get agro back without Roar,we barbs can,your herc can't keep agro from Archer mobs,we barbs can,your Herc will never have 30k+ Hp like some us,we barbs can,and your fatty thing is now useless in any TT3-x squad,Hercs are simply obsolete at 90+ any decently equipped Barb is better,you fail b:bye

Silest - Sanctuary · October 2010

Died for a cleric before in bh79.. ya know..the roaming archer mob that picks people off as they port in. I didn't have time to summon my pet(it doesn't take long for one of those to kill a cleric), so I launched skills at it.

I'm neutral on this lvl11 res thing.

lol...yall just reply to tweakz for lulz it seems.

tweakz · October 2010

BerserkBeast - Sanctuary wrote: »

Barbs have a set of skills that other classes doesen't have.
And LOL your Herc can keep agro from 5 aps BMs?,Your Herc can swim to tank Mantavip?

I've seen Barb tank mantavip,not yet Swimming Hercs lmao.

Oh btw,if a Herc'ed Veno get killed in TT/Nirvana/Whatever his Herc can't get agro back without Roar,we barbs can,your herc can't keep agro from Archer mobs,we barbs can,your Herc will never have 30k+ Hp like some us,we barbs can,and your fatty thing is now useless in any TT3-x squad,Hercs are simply obsolete at 90+ any decently equipped Barb is better,you fail b:bye

Barbs are obsolete, you fail. b:bye b:kiss

MANray_ - Sanctuary · October 2010

tweakz wrote: »

Barbs are obsolete, you fail. b:bye b:kiss

Nevermind Tweakz, he's absolutely clueless... We just keep him around as a cautionary tale...

HimeJunsei - Sanctuary · October 2010

Barbs tank, wizzies dps, clerics heal and tweakz hijack threads with lvl 11 trolling skill.

Those are the main PWI classes folks.

And to be on topic.. sort of... I just got res by the lvl 11 rev... and I love it. Also... Sage Veno skills are stupidly expensive whether the skills are useful or useless. How can sage Blazing Scarab cost 6 mills? In what life will a Veno use that skill other than to get more chi, before going sage? Maybe just for kicks, as last spell to get, only to say: *I got all sage skills*.

Random:FCC and Venos

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