BH Issue

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · July 2010

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

It's the player's fault NOT THE SYSTEM'S. They suck because they're stupid or lazy or whatever other reason. You can't blame the education system if you're illiterate when everyone else who went through the same system is perfectly fine. It just means you failed to do it right. Will failing you and making you repeat help fix the problem? Possibly if you decide to put in the effort to learn the 2nd time round but what you're suggesting is equivalent to failing the whole school because 1 person is illiterate. Everyone else doesn't have to suffer (slower leveling in this case) because of 1 person's failures.

And I don't care how much better you think people were way back when because that's still just your opinion. You could be making it up just to prove your point, you may not have met many fail people which could be your luck or possibly you just didn't do enough FB/BH runs back then to meet as many fail people as you do now. I don't know. It doesn't mean anything because it's still just your perspective.

There is nothing you have learnt in 2 years that I couldn't learn in 2 months. This game is that simple. I have never done a rebirth or nirvana but I guarantee you, if you take me through 4-5 successful runs and guide me through them, I will be able to do them just as well.

Without fast leveling, there wouldn't be as many noobs because:

1) When you are doing BH, you don't have to learn how to play. AA classes don't have to fear physical mobs, nobody needs good refines since dungeons are easy and in general, they don't have to learn anything if they are doing BH. If they were questing or grinding, they'd want to maximize their EXP gain. In BH they don't have to do anything but rush since they always get the same amount of EXP minus deaths.

2) The noobs who want to level fast would quit before reaching high levels and find another game.

I still don't want to get BH removed or even nerfed. I enjoy my fast EXP and the people who fail make mediocre players shine.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · July 2010

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Without fast leveling, there wouldn't be as many noobs because:

1) When you are doing BH, you don't have to learn how to play. AA classes don't have to fear physical mobs, nobody needs good refines since dungeons are easy and in general, they don't have to learn anything if they are doing BH. If they were questing or grinding, they'd want to maximize their EXP gain. In BH they don't have to do anything but rush since they always get the same amount of EXP minus deaths.

2) The noobs who want to level fast would quit before reaching high levels and find another game.

I still don't want to get BH removed or even nerfed. I enjoy my fast EXP and the people who fail make mediocre players shine.

are you sure you know what are you talking about?

1) 6x-7x AA dont have to fear phy mobs in bh51? ..

2) before 'bh age', there were many nubs who played game on slow easy-mode which was grinding

i remember that on 70s: it was pretty common to meet veno without amp or that was fail lurer or archer without sta
and many 80s toons didnt have h-lvl/maxed skills like purge or HF cause 'they didnt find those useful'
gosh..

also, that slow lvling was scaring off many good players who arent hardcore mmo-ginders

you dont need to play 10k hours to learn your toon. you just need to do various stuff to learn to adapt to different situations ( solo /squad quests + bh/fb/tt + rb/zhen )

prob is that BH is too rewarding, and ppl resign from doing anything else (mentioned above) and repeat (rush somehow tru) one instance just 3-5 times and get +10lvls

so yeah, BH made more noobs than it was before, but bh > orcales, hypers, another cs, wq or mq

BH exp reward isnt scaled well with quest/grind/rb exp.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · July 2010

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

are you sure you know what are you talking about?

1) 6x-7x AA dont have to fear phy mobs in bh51? ..

2) before 'bh age', there were many nubs who played game on slow easy-mode which was grinding

i remember that on 70s: it was pretty common to meet veno without amp or that was fail lurer or archer without sta
and many 80s toons didnt have h-lvl/maxed skills like purge or HF cause 'they didnt find those useful'
gosh..

also, that slow lvling was scaring off many good players who arent hardcore mmo-ginders

you dont need to play 10k hours to learn your toon. you just need to do various stuff to learn to adapt to different situations ( solo /squad quests + bh/fb/tt + rb/zhen )

prob is that BH is too rewarding, and ppl resign from doing anything else (mentioned above) and repeat (rush somehow tru) one instance just 3-5 times and get +10lvls

so yeah, BH made more noobs than it was before, but bh > orcales, hypers, another cs, wq or mq

BH exp reward isnt scaled well with quest/grind/rb exp.

1) They don't have to fear as much if the tank does their job. If they were solo grinding they should have learned how to survive because usually there is no cleric to rez them (doesn't apply when the AA class is the only cleric in the squad).

Anyway, to your point that people didn't always have purge or HF. Those skills aren't that useful outside boss killing or PvPing.

EmeraldFire - Lost City · July 2010

truekossy wrote: »

See, this is exactly the kind of problem we older players have.

Back before all this hyper leveling BS started, you could join a random squad and EXPECT that you'd have a good cleric, a good BM, a veno that knew how to pull/debuff/pass sparks, good DDers that knew how to control their aggro depending on the situation, a good tank that could actually hold the aggro, etc.

The very fact that you're saying we shouldn't expect to have a good cleric or BM, in and of itself, is part of the problem here My freaking archer was able to tank Wyern by her mid-60s with a single cleric solo healing because the cleric was also an older player who actually knew how to play well and I knew how to use my own skills to stay alive long enough to give her breathing room in case something went wrong.

Yet at the same time, we have BHs where BMs who can use a freaking phys marrow to reduce Wyern's damage to something that tickles get killed there. Where Barbs are deciding to be lazy and not use ream to hold aggro. Where people think bramble is some magical aggro magnet that causes you to generate aggro if you have any mobs in the surrounding area, assuming the venos even know to use bramble to begin with. We have people who think that you can't do a boss like Jewels on-level because they have no clue how to play their classes properly.

Sure, we used to have a few of these back then too... but guess what? They were the rarity, not the norm! I've seen so many level 9X venos that don't even use their fox skills that it's pathetic. I've been in TTs with 10X players telling me it's their first time in a TT ever and that they don't know what to do. I've been in situations where before, the random squads you could find would have been able to swiftly and quickly work together to regain control of the situation, yet now all that happened was that everyone went and got killed. When a level 85 Barb somehow dies to lion boss in 2-1 with BB, leaving a level 75 archer and a 97 archer to survive and it's the 75 archer who winds up successfully tanking because the other one can't out-aggro her, you know there's something wrong. When you're doing wurlord and the 84 veno sends her pet to attack, then has the pet run BACk to the squad, you know there's something wrong. When you're doing Pole with a 95 cleric and a 74 cleric and the 74 one has to cover for the 95 because he's too busy metal maging even though he had agreed to focus on the tank, you know there's something wrong. When you're doing Brig with a 95 sage barb and the level 73 archer steals aggro with an unrefined weapon without even sparking, you know there's something wrong.

Situations like that used to be a rarity! Now they're considered common and stuff you need to be prepared for. If people actually knew their classes, knew their skills, and knew how to play, then this wouldn't happen. If BHs were really so great for teaching anything, then this wouldn't happen. If just reading your skills (which, for some reason, most don't even do anymore) was enough to teach you how and when to use them reflexively, then this wouldn't happen! ... But guess what? It DOES still happen. I don't know about you, I don't know about the others here defending how things are now, and I certainly don't know about all the random idiots I've been dealing with whenever I venture outside the safety of my established friends and faction members.... but I sure as hell see this as a problem that should NOT be there.

AMEN AMEN AMEN

Could not have said this any better!

migalia · July 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Look at all the BH nubs trying to say it's not the fault of the BH system leveling people too fast. It really is. I'm not saying to change it back to the way it was, but not putting the blame where it clearly belongs is sad and funny at the same time.

Not likely at all. Many of the oldest players on the server usually do their BH's together, and we hardly fail at them. We rarely do pick-up parties with strangers, and when we do it's almost always the nub's mistakes that get the party wiped. Most of the older players know where every mob in every FB/BH is from running hundreds if not thousands of FBs, and even though I used BH100 orbs, dailies and hardly quested my levels on my veno, I know how to play one decently enough not to cause squad wipes. I've been playing with other characters with my main long enough to know what a particular class is supposed to do and when. Sure, everyone makes mistakes, but the people who make them consistently without learning are often the people who are new to this game.

Back in the day, we used to run any particular FB shortly after doing our own. Even though many of the parties were only doing fb's at their level or slightly higher, without genies or blessings, fail was far less common. Now you have BHs where parties 15-20 levels higher fail regularly.

I'd have to agree. Many people's alts are better geared than most new people's mains. When I get to the point to where I want to do frost, I'll leech off a freind who can solo it. b:surrender

The thing is, I see lots of fail characters, even up to lvl 100. Fast leveling has pushed them to a higher arbitrary number and give plenty of experience points, not given them more in-game experience.

Before BH, nobody really complained about how difficult it was to level. Most people were comfortable with the pace. Go search the forums yourself. Look back 9 months to a year and a half ago. There are really no complaints. The whole 'speed level' approach was installed by the company to rush people to end game so they have to spend real money to be competitive.

It didn't bother me it took me nearly a year to hit 100. It doesn't bother me that you can do it now in about 3-4 months if you do all your dalies and BHs. It doesn't bother me that you can do it in as little as 4-5 weeks either. I just lol at the results. Yes, people who have been playing for a year can tell when a nub is a nub, even if the squad isn't fail. Not putting blame where it lies is the issue I'm addressing. lol

lol, agreed with this on many areas. i have played the game for about a year. my main is only 82 and that's becasue i choose not to do bh's. i have multiple alts in the 60-70+'s and it's alot easier to run a class properly the 2nd time around. all of this not used to there main so they suck tidbit from earlier on in the thread just don't cut ot. play a main long enough and you learn/understand the roles of every class in a party. just because your alt plays alittle differently you still know there primary role and tend to lean towards learning that role. and yes seeing nubs as nubs and noobs as noobs are very destinct not by just gear but also by how they conduct themselves conversation wise.

edit: i don't mind bh. but they should lower the amount of exp you get from it

Michael_Dark - Lost City · July 2010

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

It's the player's fault NOT THE SYSTEM'S. They suck because they're stupid or lazy or whatever other reason. You can't blame the education system if you're illiterate when everyone else who went through the same system is perfectly fine. It just means you failed to do it right. Will failing you and making you repeat help fix the problem? Possibly if you decide to put in the effort to learn the 2nd time round but what you're suggesting is equivalent to failing the whole school because 1 person is illiterate. Everyone else doesn't have to suffer (slower leveling in this case) because of 1 person's failures.

You don't get it. Why don't you look at the stock valuation over the last 2 years... when did the stock start losing ground? One can say it is partially due to packs, but before packs, BH and Hyper were included in this game, there were more players, more of them who were satisfied and less people who didn't know how to play their class. Almost every player that has been around here for a good amount of time agrees, yet you keep your blinders on and expect your opinion to be valid? It's a joke.

Were you even around before? Or are you just making a BS statement based only on what you see now? Just.... lol. You're speaking out of ignorance.

And I don't care how much better you think people were way back when because that's still just your opinion. You could be making it up just to prove your point, you may not have met many fail people which could be your luck or possibly you just didn't do enough FB/BH runs back then to meet as many fail people as you do now. I don't know. It doesn't mean anything because it's still just your perspective.

Umm... I have 14k rep. I didn't purchase any of it, nor did I use tokens to obtain it. Almost all of it is from FBs, one-man-armies and quests. A small amount from wraith tags dropped from wraith attacks and secret letters. I've run each of the instances hundreds of times. Several hundred for most of them except for perhaps fb79-99. Sorry, another point of yours that falls completely flat in the face of the truth.

There is nothing you have learnt in 2 years that I couldn't learn in 2 months. This game is that simple. I have never done a rebirth or nirvana but I guarantee you, if you take me through 4-5 successful runs and guide me through them, I will be able to do them just as well.

Yes, I'm sure you're great at imitating the actions of others. As for knowing the game, in 2 months? lol, there's a lot of content to 'know'. So if I created my alt, you could run my fb's and get me all my quest mobs without me having to tell you? Can you tell me where my culti mobs are, or where to pick up my tabs? I don't doubt that you could show me how to run a BH. As if there is something difficult with that?

By your own admissions this is an easy game, yet there's so much failure. When the game was much more difficult there was less failure. Gee, wonder how that exactly works.... oh, and there were quite a few more players playing the game then than there are now... or don't you get that with all the giveaways and facebook 'promotions' they've been having lately?

Of course you're just full of ****, because you really haven't seen the before/after and how it has affected the general in-game population, so your opinion isn't even really based on observation and you're just talking out your ****.

b:bye

EmeraldFire - Lost City · July 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Umm... ever do old frost or old lunar? Or how about even old TT?

LMFAO Most of the new people would faint if they had to play those instances the way we actually learned them. Over the last year they have dumbed down every instance in the game and beefed up exp. Along with double drops and exp coming out the yang, add in event packs, and viola *instant 100's event armored out* who you make a point to NEVER party with after the first time you run with them. Everyone has their bad days, hell I had one today in a WS run (the shame the shame), but if it is EVERY instance then they should realize something is TERRIBLY wrong.
Like I said earlier in game, I have set on OHT in those maps for months trying to get my gear from them,I have runs hundreds if , if not thousands of FB's and HH's(TT's for the LC impaired =D ) for armor drops for myself and others. You can definitely tell the people who took the time to learn their character and earned what they have in game the old way.

As far as these arguments go, you Michael I would party with any time of day, you are a hell of a player, but some of these people on this thread , ya they would hit that list of people I would NEVER party with after the first run. LOL And I hate you because you are that good with that BM and that Veno b:cry

Michael_Dark - Lost City · July 2010

EmeraldFire - Lost City wrote: »

As far as these arguments go, you Michael I would party with any time of day, you are a hell of a player, but some of these people on this thread , ya they would hit that list of people I would NEVER party with after the first run. LOL And I hate you because you are that good with that BM and that Veno b:cry

b:shyb:pleasedb:kiss

Asperitas - Lost City · July 2010

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

It's the player's fault NOT THE SYSTEM'S. They suck because they're stupid or lazy or whatever other reason. You can't blame the education system if you're illiterate when everyone else who went through the same system is perfectly fine.

Ghana's literacy rate is 65%. Most of their people are literate. Does this mean their education system is good and that just a lot of their people are stupid? No. Improvements on education systems are still largely part of development plans to improve the living conditions in third world countries, the reason being, the quality of the education system has a direct impact on quality of people produced. A better education serves to educate more and more people, raising knowledge and awareness.

You're assuming the system and the people follow a strict dichotomy, yet that is not the case. The quality of a system has a direct impact on the quality of the people.

In this case, the quality of our levelling system has a direct impact on the quality of the players produced.

I've said many times before. The reward reaped from BH and hyper frost is so great that nobody bothers to do anything else anymore, thus lacking sufficient experience in crucial areas that serve to make up a decent player.

@Lylfo

I don't see why it's overly expecting to suggest the norm to be people who can play their class. Is that too much to ask for? For a barb to be able to tank, for a cleric to be able to heal and purify, for a veno to be able to amp, purge and lure? Many of the failures observed are not incredulous things that most people cannot do, it's the failure of common things that were once norms.

Clearly, when norms and expectations regress, there are problems. Instead of having higher and higher quality players, we're left with each generation being more ignorant than the previous.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · July 2010

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

1) They don't have to fear as much if the tank does their job. If they were solo grinding they should have learned how to survive because usually there is no cleric to rez them (doesn't apply when the AA class is the only cleric in the squad).

bad lures, wandering guards, aggro pulls happens all the time.. if AAs survivality in instances would depends just from tank then game would so much easier..

and dont compare instance to killing quest mobs solo.. seriously, if someone still need to learn to survive on those 40 or 50lvl then he should just spare himself sweat and uninstall game

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Anyway, to your point that people didn't always have purge or HF. Those skills aren't that useful outside boss killing or PvPing.

if DDs dont have aoe-stuns or dmg amplifiers then it give you prettty much info about their squad gameplay knowledge

<- never meet good DD without skills

anyway, imo:

before BH age, game was bad because eso-grind allowed you to skip much content/lessons up to late mid game, which producet many bad players

now, it is even worse since easy BHs teach you some basics up to late game , and then hyper-frost allow you to skip another important lessons

tl;dr before 3xEXP/BH/hyper you could meet same amount of fail ppl on 60-70lvl like you meet now on 90-100lvl. Just their lvl changed

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · July 2010

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

tl;dr before 3xEXP/BH/hyper you could meet same amount of fail ppl on 60-70lvl like you meet now on 90-100lvl. Just their lvl changed

Exactly. The fails are now at end-game. You are supposed to know your job in a squad when you have "completed" the game.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · July 2010

DevilishTaki - Lost City wrote: »

Ok so recently I've been unable to complete a single BH in 5 days. Reason: Power lvlers who don't know how to play their class or just plain idiots. Perfect examples of this:

Yesterday: Joined a BH squad who needed to kill Zimo and BH51. I only needed BH51 but since those squads are hard to come by I figured I'd go and help them with Zimo then join in for the 51. 1st sign of fail: a lvl.66 psy in my squad with a lvl.35 white weapon and a low lvl might ring. I thought to my self "well at least they won't be able to steal agro from the tank". Our tank was a lvl.7x barb and was accompanied by a lvl.8x cleric. Barb runs into 3 mobs and hits 1...cleric heals him which lead to the other two mobs to turn to the cleric and kill her leading too a...party wipe. Needless to say this wasn't the only time this happened. Everyone in that squad died about 3 times. We killed Zimo but then the squad disbanded afterwards. -_-

Today: Had the chance to join a BH 51 squad. 1st sign of fail: lvl.6x veno doesn't know how to lure. gets herself and the squad wiped then leaves. Things proceed smoothly til the cleric just runs blindly along doing front flips in front of the mobs while the rest of us are hugging the wall. This happened 4 times. Our tank got annoyed and left, then the cleric left, and then the rest of the squad disbanded. -_-

Due to squads like these I have been unable to complete a BH in 5 days. With easy ways to lvl (3 BH's a day instead of 1 or none, Hypers, and Oracles) these are making too many "noobs" to to point where its just about impossible to get anything done in a party. Maybe I just have really bad luck finding a squad but does anyone else agree with me?

What I would like to see:
BH's, Hypers, and Oracles to be removed completely.

What's going to happen:
Nothing. Things will continue to be like this and get worse over time as easier ways to lvl be implemented sometime sooner or later.

Anyone remember when being lvl.70 was an accomplishment?

P.S. Looking for a BH51 Squad. -_-

Posts like this remind me of the good ol' days nonsense when people tell me about when the 80s or 90s or 70s or 50s were a better decade, or the 16th century was the best century, completely ignoring or oblivious to the negativity and strife occurred in these eras. I was at endgame before hypers came out, and there were plenty of nubs like this up and down the level spectrum.

Just some common wisdom I've learned merely by playing:

∙ Being level 70 "back then" was no more or less an accomplishment than it is now

∙ There's significantly more players now than before, when I had my first level 70

∙ Being that there's more players, and when you do a random BH squad, you're going to have a higher chance of running into fails.

∙ Because of the aforementioned factors, you make friends with people who know best how to play their class and squad with them.

So a person grinded the hell out of their character, or didn't BH, or hyper -- so what? A player still needs to do about 30-50 (if not more) FF runs on hyper to get to 100 from 80. If they aren't going to get it by that many tries, why would they get it by the much slower methods, without hyper, just merely by killing the same mob or mobs over and over? Apply this to the swath of levels encountered by the OP for BH, or other instances like TT, or RB, or nirvana. The whole game is tied up in repetition, repeating quests, killing the same thing over and over, and the obvious thing is the ones who get it have a better understanding of this game, or games in general, and pick up on things more quickly, and have an easier time doing simple or advanced dungeons. Then there are the rest. Variety is a spice of life, and it's ok to have idiots or nubs who play the game. That's really the only way you know if you're a decent player.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · July 2010

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

∙ There's significantly more players now than before, when I had my first level 70

Not on LC. There were more players before packs... then a lot of rage quitting.... the numbers over the last few months have seemed to increase significantly, but the quest areas for lowbies who can't do bh aren't nearly as busy. Places like Secret Passage aren't swarming with 20-40 people at any given time, but there usually is activity in there at all hours now... not like it used to be though. For a while there, all the quest areas were pretty much barren. Now you'll find a fair number of people at quest locations.

So a person grinded the hell out of their character, or didn't BH, or hyper -- so what? A player still needs to do about 30-50 (if not more) FF runs on hyper to get to 100 from 80. If they aren't going to get it by that many tries, why would they get it by the much slower methods, without hyper, just merely by killing the same mob or mobs over and over?

Umm... before hyper and BH, people played the game to play it. Leveling was mostly just a circumstance of playing the game. Now leveling is the primary aspect. That has completely changed. Don't believe me? Look back a year ago... I did, I looked at 40 or 50 pages of posts... nearly 6 months worth of posts dating back from a year to nearly a year and a half ago specifically looking for people complaining about how hard it was to level. What did I find? Really, nothing. Two troll threads, but most of the people said leveling was easy enough or at a comfortable pace. Also, there was far less QQ about everything, and hardly any posts about failure. It's all here on the forums, feel free to take a half hour or so (about how much time I spent) and see for yourself.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · July 2010

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

There is nothing you have learnt in 2 years that I couldn't learn in 2 months. This game is that simple.

Someone in another section of this forum asked a question... I wrote this from the top of my head...

You've been here 2 months. Did you know all this? This is like... nothing in terms of game knowledge either.

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Brute's Power is a HA lvl 90, Oracle is AA 90, General is LA90 gold sets. You get +10 str HA / +10 mag AA / +10 dex LA for 2 pieces and -3% reduce physical damage for the 4 piece set.

Lionheart is HA 99, Archangel is AA 99, Ashura's is a LA lvl 99 set bonus. They have either -.05 interval for HA/LA and -3% channeling for AA, +15 Vit and +3% crit for the 2, 4 and 6 piece bonuses.

Lunar armor does not have any set bonuses. It is also a grade higher than TT99 armor.

Light of Nirvana is the name for the Lunar Nirvana set. Shadow of Nirvana is the name for the Twilight Temple Nirvana set. Set bonus for all Nirvana is +5 attack levels, +10 defense levels, +3 defense levels for 2, 5 or 6 pieces respectively. They're the same for either TT or Lunar Nirvana.

The unique adds for Nirvana that you are talking about are for weapons only. The armor has specific bonuses that do not change. One of the stats on any piece of armor, str, dex or mag is a variable 6-10. The rest are static.

Oh, don't forget to respond to my last post to you. b:bye

Okeano - Harshlands · July 2010

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

There is nothing you have learnt in 2 years that I couldn't learn in 2 months. This game is that simple. I have never done a rebirth or nirvana but I guarantee you, if you take me through 4-5 successful runs and guide me through them, I will be able to do them just as well.

I HIGHLY doubt that... If there's someone who came up to you and told you everything there is to know about this game, then sure. It's not so much info that you can't take it in in 2 months. But there's a difference between able to learn them and actually come across issues so you do learn things.

Astrohawke - Lost City · July 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Someone in another section of this forum asked a question... I wrote this from the top of my head...

You've been here 2 months. Did you know all this? This is like... nothing in terms of game knowledge either.

Oh, don't forget to respond to my last post to you. b:bye

I wasn't talking about game information. Memorizing stuff like stats on pieces of armor or monster stats or whatever. I was talking about learning how to play the game. Let's say I oracled to 100 and knew nothing about my character or the game. In 2 months, someone takes me along and teaches me what to do in every instance there is in this game and I do those instances 2-3 times, I will be just as good at those instances as someone who has grinded to 100 and done all of those instances hundreds of times. Because you say you know where all the mobs are blah blah blah well so do I from spending 10 levels worth of BHs in that instance. Not hard.

I won't pretend to know every little piece of information there is to know about the game but of the stuff you mentioned, I know most of the stuff I've come across and paid attention to. For instance, I have a 9x sin so I've looked at and could tell you most of the stuff regarding TT90 and TT99 LA. Maybe not so much about the HA because I haven't played a BM or Barb but at the very least I know their names and some of their bonuses.

As for your other post, yes I could run your FBs for you and get you all your quest mobs, where to get your tabs and all that other stuff you mentioned. If I've experienced it myself, I can help you do it all. In fact I'm one of those people who's in the FB_help channel helping with FBs a lot but even just having done it once or twice, I could pretty much tell you everything you needed to know.

But that's all besides the point. What I was talking about was learning to play your character in different parts of the game. As someone said earlier, everything in this game is just repetition. You only need to experience something a few times before you should be able to know wtf you're doing.

Asperitas - Lost City · July 2010

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

But that's all besides the point. What I was talking about was learning to play your character in different parts of the game. As someone said earlier, everything in this game is just repetition. You only need to experience something a few times before you should be able to know wtf you're doing.

A poor BH system with high rewards and low effort means people are not experiencing the things they should. They're all concentrated around BH and Frost, and that's why some of us think the rewards from BH should be nerfed.

WnbTank - Archosaur · July 2010

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

I wasn't talking about game information. Memorizing stuff like stats on pieces of armor or monster stats or whatever. I was talking about learning how to play the game. Let's say I oracled to 100 and knew nothing about my character or the game. In 2 months, someone takes me along and teaches me what to do in every instance there is in this game and I do those instances 2-3 times, I will be just as good at those instances as someone who has grinded to 100 and done all of those instances hundreds of times. Because you say you know where all the mobs are blah blah blah well so do I from spending 10 levels worth of BHs in that instance. Not hard.

Actually I seem to learn something new all the time and hell, I first installed this game over a year ago. And I have run instances "few" times, being fast learner, there is no freaking way you would run em just as well as I if you did em 2-3 times. Sure you learn the basic idea doing it 2-3 times, yet I have done FC so many different ways that it`s not even funny, 2-3 doesn`t quite cut it.

Either I`m actually damn bad or you are just so full of yourself, though playing brainless DD class may be a bit easier than a barb. It`s also quite damn different thing when you need to think what to do when something goes wrong and having reflex for it, no, only idiots spam everything when it`s not needed. I myself am far from perfect, yet I would be nowhere near as good barb as I am if I only had done every instance 2-3 times. Would I know basic stuff? Yes. Would I learn stuff I need to know to be good? Absolutely not.

Ps. Strategies may be easy, adapting on every situation is the key

.

Borsuc - Raging Tide · July 2010

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

means people are not experiencing the things they should.

Like what?

For difficulties:

Grinding < BH
Most TTs < FC
(I said Most with few exceptions like Ancient Evil and TT3-2 and TT3-3, most others are just afk-macroing lmao)

Rebirth? That's for granted, but takes so much time, doing it daily would be cumbersome.

any other content at these levels I'm particularly missing?

Asperitas - Lost City · July 2010

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Like what?

For difficulties:

Grinding < BH
Most TTs < FC
(I said Most with few exceptions like Ancient Evil and TT3-2 and TT3-3, most others are just afk-macroing lmao)

Rebirth? That's for granted, but takes so much time, doing it daily would be cumbersome.

any other content at these levels I'm particularly missing?

Really, BH is harder than grinding? As a BM, all I'm doing is DDing on a mob that's been lured by the veno, and being tanked by the barb. In all honesty, the hardest part is not aggroing mobs when I'm wallhugging.

When I'm grinding, I'm keeping an eye on my hp and mp levels. I'm keeping an eye on how many mobs I have on me. I'm chaining my stuns and switching my weapons.

Read through the thread. People are lacking skills in their own class, let alone in a squad situation. BMs aren't stunning, veno's aren't amping, clerics aren't purifying. Being in the safety of a squad lets you get away with a lot of things. I don't have to stun because the barb can tank it. The clerics can be late on the purifies because barbs have a lot of HP. Veno's aren't amping and purging because we have a group of DDs to speed up the process.

Just sitting in BH every single day from level 40 greatly diminishes your competence as an individual player, leaving your potential to group contribution unrealized, and in worst case scenarios, when ****-ups happen, you have no idea how to handle it.

Borsuc - Raging Tide · July 2010

Well the problem with grinding is that it's solo mostly. Mobs aren't hard for you to require a squad. Thus, you don't learn how to work in a squad. Yes I've encountered plenty of fail people myself, no matter if it's in instances or outside grinding. Grinding makes you learn the basic mechanics of your class and combinations, I agree, but it doesn't make you learn teamwork.

Well when I said BH was more 'difficult' I was talking along the lines of a faster BH done by AOEing mobs, not luring 1 by 1.

Lessein - Sanctuary · July 2010

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Don't think it's Hyper/Oracle/BH noobs really, it's jsut people who can't bother to (try to) learn their class. I've seen ALOT of fail charaters below level 30. I mean archer using swords, or opening combos with skills like lightning strike? Removing fast leveling will not get rid of horrible players, just make it harder for them (everyone) to level. Takes a while to level with BHs IMO. Finding complete BH squads at the right time isn't easy =/

Some people are idiots/jerks and while removing Hypers/Oracles/BHs will get rid of a lot of them, it will also chase decent players away from the game, as they'll hit a wall and get bored of spending 3-5 monthes to gain ~10 levels.

I'm going to have to point out the obvious here. The low levels, who are new to the game are ALWAYS going to make silly mistakes like archers with swords. But the point is that as they leveled (slowly) this would become apparent and they would eventually HAVE to fix it. And 98% of the time this would happen before it became an issue. Because so many people would tell them when they were questing that what they were doing was wrong. And more experienced squads and factions would have time to point them in the right direction.

But now with Oracles, Hypers, BH's - WHATEVER - These issues are spreading into the higher levels. A level 6X veno that can't lure is pathetic. By level 6X even if nobody had explained how to do it to them, they probably would have figured it out for themselves (before fast levelling thingies were introduced). I see so many people complaining that complaining that clerics are hard and that they die all the time. If you have had to level slowly, you LEARN how to not die!

Honestly I completely agree these things have caused people to not know how to play their classes, and are generally too arrogant to want to know how to play properly!

That said - I would not get rid of BH's, I think they are fun, and add allot of good content to the game, plus now there are lots of nice molds around for me to be able to choose what armour & weapons i want without a worry for a 10mil bill or whatever.
I would however reduce the rewards for the BH's

Asperitas - Lost City · July 2010

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well the problem with grinding is that it's solo mostly. Mobs aren't hard for you to require a squad. Thus, you don't learn how to work in a squad. Yes I've encountered plenty of fail people myself, no matter if it's in instances or outside grinding. Grinding makes you learn the basic mechanics of your class and combinations, I agree, but it doesn't make you learn teamwork.

Well when I said BH was more 'difficult' I was talking along the lines of a faster BH done by AOEing mobs, not luring 1 by 1.

Grinding has only become so solo-based nowadays because everybody's doing BH. Like I've said, before all this BH stuff, I've always squadded with people on quests I'm doing. There was a good mixture of solo and squad play involved, even pre-BH.

Even before learning to work in a squad, you need to learn to play your own class. You can't be on a basketball team without knowing how to dribble and shoot. Team chemistry and strategy is only applicable after every player has a certain degree of competency.

Seriously, I've had an 80 BM come ask me what marrows were. Something like that would have already been procured in the infant stages of grinding, where marrows are greatly beneficial. Yet, as people skip through these stages, they forego little things like this, and it takes away from the effectiveness as a squad overall, and leads to catastrophic endings when unexpected things happen.

I'm not saying BH doesn't teach anything at all. I'm sure it enhances teamplay, but solely relying on BH and hyper frost to level can only teach you so much.

Kwandelan - Heavens Tear · July 2010

I completely agree with Michael_Dark & the few others..who've been playing for long time & know what the problem is..

Lemme try to explain what they r trying to say..in my own way:

Assume a child has been taught Maths for the first time..and 3-4 times more...it gets the basic..2+2 = 4, 3+3 = 6, etc etc.
It gets that child good at basics of Maths; BUT.. it becomes a problem when the child decides to be lazy all the time or simply doesnt care abt to learn the better ways of doing things right.. 3x 2 = 6..but when I can simply count 3 fingers on each hand twice, then why bother to do what others want me to do? In the end, Im going to get the same answer!

thing is..BH tho is good for lvlingup but the rewards r incredibly high that people forget how to do things right & what to do in problematic situations. Yeah u can always go to a bh or ff or tt 2-3 times & learn the basics of doing it...but all u learn to do is make use of few "daily-used" skills & yeah..all u endup doing is the game things again & again...form a random squad, enter BH, kill 10 mobs, kill boss & done.
What u dont realise is..in the process..u arent really enjoying the other aspects of the game...
Few people on this thread say b4 BHs people used to solo-grind & it didnt teach teamwork at all..now thats completely wrong..
People used to do quests in squad or Zhen or do Rb Gamma alot more (and in better ways)than they do it nowadays... it isnt a surprise that 90% of current pwi doesnt know what the term Zhenning(in pwi) is & what did such zhen squads used to do...
MMORPGS like PWI r supposed to be enjoyed through lvls & not to be oracled or hypered or BHed all the way to the top "to enjoy PvP aspect of it"

Michael_Dark - Lost City · July 2010

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

I wasn't talking about game information. Memorizing stuff like stats on pieces of armor or monster stats or whatever. I was talking about learning how to play the game. Let's say I oracled to 100 and knew nothing about my character or the game. In 2 months, someone takes me along and teaches me what to do in every instance there is in this game and I do those instances 2-3 times, I will be just as good at those instances as someone who has grinded to 100 and done all of those instances hundreds of times. Because you say you know where all the mobs are blah blah blah well so do I from spending 10 levels worth of BHs in that instance. Not hard.

Umm... you didn't say that. You said you can learn everything in 2 months that I've learned in my time here. It's not just stats, it's knowing the game. Which mobs do you need to kill in fb51 for your quest? What do you need to do to get all your tabs in fb51/69/79? Is there anything special you need to know about fb89 and the culti? How do you get to the secret boss in fb99 SoT?

So you oracle to 100 in two months.... do you know most of the other classes main skills are, know what they look like when they channel, or how to combat or defend against them?

Doing instances over and over don't teach you which skills are useless, which ones are good, and which ones should preceed/follow each other... well you can always read a guide or have someone teach you.

I guess teh blane lies on all the higher level and experienced players who need to teach nub lvl 100's that they shouldn't shard their gear with evasion shards, tell BMs that Tiger Maw and Draw Blood are horrible, tell archers not to use stormrage and if they do to metal debuff it first, and if they don't have lvl 11 quickshot or sharptooth they shouldn't be spamming them, tell clerics not to air-to-ground heavies using plume shot or when they shouldn't rb or bb, tell barbs when they need to bite, roar, or when they need to be in tiger/human form, tell venos when to amp, purge, send sparks or to re-bramble people, tell sins to hold off a bit before the tank can get some hold over aggro instead of watching them die over and over, telling mages not to use water attacks on water mobs (or better yet water immune mobs)... I see so many lvl 100's do some of the most stupid things because hyper frost and BH's didn't make them a better player, it just make them used to doing BHs.

As for your other post, yes I could run your FBs for you and get you all your quest mobs, where to get your tabs and all that other stuff you mentioned. If I've experienced it myself, I can help you do it all. In fact I'm one of those people who's in the FB_help channel helping with FBs a lot but even just having done it once or twice, I could pretty much tell you everything you needed to know.

That's pretty good. Most lvl 100's these days don't know how to run a proper fb. Even a year ago, many people didn't know how, but you're far more likely to meet people now who have no clue.

But that's all besides the point. What I was talking about was learning to play your character in different parts of the game. As someone said earlier, everything in this game is just repetition. You only need to experience something a few times before you should be able to know wtf you're doing.

Everything in this game is repetition. As long as you do most of your normal quests, you'll be fine. It's most of the newer BH and Hyper noobs who do not do their quests that you can clearly see stare blankly when a fail approaches and can do nothing about it because they're used to repetition and when that repetition chain is broken, they rarely have the instinctive reflex to spot what is happening and prevent it. And yes, the game is too easy, but it does take time to develop an instinctive reaction.

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

Just sitting in BH every single day from level 40 greatly diminishes your competence as an individual player, leaving your potential to group contribution unrealized, and in worst case scenarios, when ****-ups happen, you have no idea how to handle it.

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

Even before learning to work in a squad, you need to learn to play your own class. You can't be on a basketball team without knowing how to dribble and shoot. Team chemistry and strategy is only applicable after every player has a certain degree of competency.

I'm not saying BH doesn't teach anything at all. I'm sure it enhances teamplay, but solely relying on BH and hyper frost to level can only teach you so much.

Wow... Bosuc, sound familiar? Isn't that about the exact same thing I said to you a month or two ago? Asperitas, he just doesn't get it and can't understand this point at all.

NightRage - Raging Tide · July 2010

Symptom: High level players don't even know how to run a BH.

Problem: BH got them to that high level so they are bad at their class.

Solution: Don't do BHs.

Asperitas - Lost City · July 2010

Quoting is being stupid at the moment, so I gotta do it like this.

It's not just stats, it's knowing the game. Which mobs do you need to kill in fb51 for your quest? What do you need to do to get all your tabs in fb51/69/79? Is there anything special you need to know about fb89 and the culti? How do you get to the secret boss in fb99 SoT?

So you oracle to 100 in two months.... do you know most of the other classes main skills are, know what they look like when they channel, or how to combat or defend against them?

Doing instances over and over don't teach you which skills are useless, which ones are good, and which ones should preceed/follow each other

+1

Exactly this. Knowing the game is more than just superficial recital of what the skill description says. It's a deeper understanding of the animation times, the channel times, the attributes, the range, circumstances of usage, the list goes on and on.

The same way reading a driver's manual isn't knowing how to drive, reading guides and descriptions isn't knowing the game. To actually "know" the game, and to become a "good" player, you actually have to play the game.

BH and frost are two aspects of the whole game. You can't have possibly played the game and cultivated enough knowledge and understanding from those two alone. And yet, because of the massive exp rewards, people are solely relying on those to gain their levels, creating a huge disparity between their character levels and their player knowledge.

I'm sure everybody's an expert on how to run BHs - which mob to pull, which boss does what etc. In that aspect, that's great, you're awesome. But put these same people into unfamiliar situations, and they have no idea how to adapt. Simple survival skills and just game-sense that should have been acquired in the pre-60's range from questing and grinding are being neglected, and hence people lack the required tools to adapt to situations, to do the necessary things to keep the squad alive, when it really counts.

And lastly, the kicker is, the standard's degraded so far that expecting clerics to be able to time their purifies, BMs to cancel AOEs and spells, barbs to maintain aggro, etc etc, is considered unrealistic and over-expectant.

There are some things people can hold your hand through, but if you want to actually play the game yourself, without being babyfed throughout the whole process, then you need to actually play the game and take the time to learn the things it requires.

truekossy · July 2010

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

And lastly, the kicker is, the standard's degraded so far that expecting clerics to be able to time their purifies, BMs to cancel AOEs and spells, barbs to maintain aggro, etc etc, is considered unrealistic and over-expectant.

And this right here is what most of us who want BH difficulty increased or the reward to be decreased have a problem with. By the time a player hits 100, they shouldn't be making a thread on the forums asking how to play their class (See: SpecialMats) because they're supposed to already know that by heart.

You say doing quests and grinding doesn't teach anything about squad mechanics or how to play and that you'd be doing it solo... you're completely wrong. The only times players really did things solo back then was levels 1-19 when the classes are seperated so you can get to learn the basics. Level 20+? Quest and grind areas would be so swamped you'd have to squad up... and then because you wanted to make the most of your time, you'd have to push yourself to the limits. Especially on a PvP server where at any second, you could be attacked by another player for whatever reason. Doing that over and over countless times, that used to be what homes instinct to the point where a great zhen squad could be in the middle of a major pull, have the cleric get ganked, and STILL manage to recover by beating whoever attacked them and surviving the pulls. The good ones? They'd survive it partially but would either have to drop the pull in the process. It was the average players who would get completely overwhelmed and have to leave entirely and even they would be capable of putting up a better fight than the BH babies and whoracle/frost nubs of today.

Put a squad of randoms together today and have them go zhen (after explaining to them for an hour what it is) and what'd happen? One skilled old player using a character 10+ levels below the zhen party could probably 1-shot the cleric and then take out the rest of the zhen squad without even trying.

BHs teaching things? Yeah right. If they were we wouldn't have some random wiz QQing over a barb leaving squad and how he feels like his "O HAI LET'S MAKE ALL DA MONSTERS VANISH SO WE DUN HAFTA USE ANY EFFORT LOLOLOL!" money was wasted.

LifeHunting - Heavens Tear · July 2010

DevilishTaki - Lost City wrote: »

Ok so recently I've been unable to complete a single BH in 5 days. Reason: Power lvlers who don't know how to play their class or just plain idiots. Perfect examples of this:

Yesterday: Joined a BH squad who needed to kill Zimo and BH51. I only needed BH51 but since those squads are hard to come by I figured I'd go and help them with Zimo then join in for the 51. 1st sign of fail: a lvl.66 psy in my squad with a lvl.35 white weapon and a low lvl might ring. I thought to my self "well at least they won't be able to steal agro from the tank". Our tank was a lvl.7x barb and was accompanied by a lvl.8x cleric. Barb runs into 3 mobs and hits 1...cleric heals him which lead to the other two mobs to turn to the cleric and kill her leading too a...party wipe. Needless to say this wasn't the only time this happened. Everyone in that squad died about 3 times. We killed Zimo but then the squad disbanded afterwards. -_-

Today: Had the chance to join a BH 51 squad. 1st sign of fail: lvl.6x veno doesn't know how to lure. gets herself and the squad wiped then leaves. Things proceed smoothly til the cleric just runs blindly along doing front flips in front of the mobs while the rest of us are hugging the wall. This happened 4 times. Our tank got annoyed and left, then the cleric left, and then the rest of the squad disbanded. -_-

Due to squads like these I have been unable to complete a BH in 5 days. With easy ways to lvl (3 BH's a day instead of 1 or none, Hypers, and Oracles) these are making too many "noobs" to to point where its just about impossible to get anything done in a party. Maybe I just have really bad luck finding a squad but does anyone else agree with me?

What I would like to see:
BH's, Hypers, and Oracles to be removed completely.

What's going to happen:
Nothing. Things will continue to be like this and get worse over time as easier ways to lvl be implemented sometime sooner or later.

Anyone remember when being lvl.70 was an accomplishment?

P.S. Looking for a BH51 Squad. -_-

Damn

If you where on HT i'd run it with ya to see how bad it is. But currently my guy on LC is 32

, so I can't really help.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · July 2010

truekossy wrote: »

BHs teaching things? Yeah right. If they were we wouldn't have some random wiz QQing over a barb leaving squad and how he feels like his "O HAI LET'S MAKE ALL DA MONSTERS VANISH SO WE DUN HAFTA USE ANY EFFORT LOLOLOL!" money was wasted.

OMG he stole 10,000 COINS frome MEEEE!!11!! If he did that every day that would be 3,650,000 in a year!!! b:angry

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