BH Issue

135

Comments

  • Astrohawke - Lost City
    Astrohawke - Lost City Posts: 199 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    This discussion is going nowhere because you think this is what we're saying.

    Let's put it really simply so your little narrowminded self might be able to understand:

    We don't want BH removed. We won't miss it if it disappeared tomorrow, sure, but that doesn't mean we want it gone. What we want is to have the system revised because as it stands it is far too much EXP for such an easy job - an easy job that people are failing at because no BH doesn't teach you abso-freaking-lutely everything you need to know about your character and yes a little grinding outside of BH on these things called "quests" would teach you a little bit more.

    BHs fail because nobody bothers to learn how to survive on their own, meaning when they end up with aggro in a BH they sit there spamming the wrong skills crying "WTF DO I DO?!?!?!?!?" and nobody else knows WTF to do either. FB squads before BH would fail, yes, but they would never fail so badly and hardly any of the players back then were of the same standard of sheer stupidity and incompetence that people are now.

    Read again: BH teaches you very little besides how to run one dungeon over on repeat with hardly any teamwork. They regularly fail and **** up because players of today's standard are more failures then players of a year ago.

    BH needs to be made more difficult with the same rewards, so maybe people would have to learn how to use teamwork rather then just idly pottering along one aside the other and mostly working alone, or the rewards need to be decreased.

    Get it yet? Where does that say "Take BH out right now"? Oh wait. It doesn't.

    No you're assuming that people don't do anything except BHs and I'm sure some people do but again, that's the person's fault not the system. I still find time to do my quests because they give rep and god knows rep is expensive. The 2-3 quests you get every level can also give 10-20% exp after grinding out all the mobs so it's something to do after daily BHs are finished.

    And you're not the only one arguing against BH in this thread. Some people are saying remove BH even if you're not. Others are saying reduce exp. If I'm reading right, you're saying make it harder. So it's kinda hard to respond to everything so no need to get snappy.

    Then again, what does making it harder even mean? More mobs? Tougher boss? it doesn't change anything because the same strategies still apply. Only difference is it will take longer to complete.

    Finally I have to ask you guys this. You want BH to be changed in whatever way (remove, reduce exp, make harder etc etc) so that people will try other things. But what does trying others things achieve? Because endgame is just PvP and to get better at that you just need to PvP more and learn by experience. Grinding and all that "other stuff" are all just means to an end. And please don't say grinding lets you understand all your character skills and how to play and all that **** because PvE and PvP gameplay are completely different.I understand my skills just fine by reading them.
  • Asperitas - Lost City
    Asperitas - Lost City Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »
    No you're assuming that people don't do anything except BHs and I'm sure some people do but again, that's the person's fault not the system. I still find time to do my quests because they give rep and god knows rep is expensive. The 2-3 quests you get every level can also give 10-20% exp after grinding out all the mobs so it's something to do after daily BHs are finished.

    And you're not the only one arguing against BH in this thread. Some people are saying remove BH even if you're not. Others are saying reduce exp. If I'm reading right, you're saying make it harder. So it's kinda hard to respond to everything so no need to get snappy.

    Then again, what does making it harder even mean? More mobs? Tougher boss? it doesn't change anything because the same strategies still apply. Only difference is it will take longer to complete.

    Finally I have to ask you guys this. You want BH to be changed in whatever way (remove, reduce exp, make harder etc etc) so that people will try other things. But what does trying others things achieve? Because endgame is just PvP and to get better at that you just need to PvP more and learn by experience. Grinding and all that "other stuff" are all just means to an end. And please don't say grinding lets you understand all your character skills and how to play and all that **** because PvE and PvP gameplay are completely different.I understand my skills just fine by reading them.

    I'll try it this way.

    Too much exp with too little effort encourages everybody to drop what they're doing and do BH. This is not people being greedy. This is what rational people do.

    Everybody drops grinding, questing, rebirth, zhenning, which means they lose experience in those areas, key areas to develop individual skills and talents. Don't tell me you can play basketball without knowing how to dribble or shoot the ball. Playing on a team builds chemistry and teamwork, but you're useless without honing your own skills first.

    People BH/hyper up to 100, but they have neglected key aspects of the game (rebirth, simple questing, grinding), and everything they know is instance based. Pull this mob, kill this mob, pull the boss, purify when he debuffs -> everything they know is textbook BH stuff. Put them into something like rebirth and they're like OMG.

    Solution:

    Reduce exp rewards from BH. This will cause people to level slower, therefore needing to supplement any remaining gaps with things such as zhenning, rebirth, and grinding. This puts back the old elements into the game, encourages people to perfect their individual understanding of their character, and ultimately creates a better playerbase.

    Reading a skill isn't enough to judge its practicality. You might think it would, but as sadly demonstrated in the hundreds of squads I've been it, it doesn't. There must have been a million times where I'm AOEing the bishops in frost, and the barb comes in and does that move where it knocks everything back. Or when I'm handling a mob and suddenly a wizard seals it. Or another BM dragons over my dragon. The amount of stupidity that's cultivating in the game is at ridiculous levels, and giving them an easier means to hit higher levels doesn't help make them into better players.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Astrohawke - Lost City
    Astrohawke - Lost City Posts: 199 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »
    I'll try it this way.

    Too much exp with too little effort encourages everybody to drop what they're doing and do BH. This is not people being greedy. This is what rational people do.

    Everybody drops grinding, questing, rebirth, zhenning, which means they lose experience in those areas, key areas to develop individual skills and talents. Don't tell me you can play basketball without knowing how to dribble or shoot the ball. Playing on a team builds chemistry and teamwork, but you're useless without honing your own skills first.

    People BH/hyper up to 100, but they have neglected key aspects of the game (rebirth, simple questing, grinding), and everything they know is instance based. Pull this mob, kill this mob, pull the boss, purify when he debuffs -> everything they know is textbook BH stuff. Put them into something like rebirth and they're like OMG.

    Like I said, all the ways of leveling are just a means to an end. Endgame is PvP and you get better at it by PvPing more not by doing more BHs. I can do all the zhenning, questing, grinding or rebirth I want but come level 100, I won't be needing any of that anymore.

    One thing I never understood is why people don't do rebirth. It gives better exp than BH. A lot better yet it's impossible to find squads for. It's hard but like any instance, once you've done it a few times and figured out a strategy, it's no harder than doing a successful frost run. At some point, people stopped doing rebirth and the newer generation just never got introduced to it.
  • Asperitas - Lost City
    Asperitas - Lost City Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »
    Like I said, all the ways of leveling are just a means to an end. Endgame is PvP and you get better at it by PvPing more not by doing more BHs. I can do all the zhenning, questing, grinding or rebirth I want but come level 100, I won't be needing any of that anymore.

    One thing I never understood is why people don't do rebirth. It gives better exp than BH. A lot better yet it's impossible to find squads for. It's hard but like any instance, once you've done it a few times and figured out a strategy, it's no harder than doing a successful frost run. At some point, people stopped doing rebirth and the newer generation just never got introduced to it.

    Being proficient at PVE, that is the knowledge and experience gained through questing, grinding, zhenning, rebirth, TT, frost, BH, helps you achieve end-game goals, be it in PVP or PVE. You can't PVP without good gear, and gear is largely obtained through PVE.

    My guess for rebirth is, for the amount of exp you get for the effort you put in, it doesn't match up to BH, which is mindless running and pulling with buckets of exp as rewards.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »
    Your points don't even make any sense.

    /facepalm

    I guess I should end each sarcastic paragraph with a /sarcasm even when it was obviously a sarcastic reply to stupid opinion. b:surrender
    BH isn't the problem at all. Oracles...yes because if they oracle to 100 all they've done is killed 1 mob continuosly and haven't learnt anything about their class. BH gives people practise and helps them learn. It doesn't level them too fast to learn their class because over the course of level 40 when you start BH to 100, you do hundreds of them. If you haven't learnt what needs to be learnt after 10 or 20, it wouldn't matter if the game made you do 2000 more. You'd still be fail because you just haven't put in the effort to learn.

    You just don't get it. BH doesn't teach you much except how to face repetitiveness. If you haven't learned how to run a BH in 2 or 3 runs then you have problems. It doesn't teach you which skills are appropriate to use, if anything it gives the horrible player more room to be horrible. BH teaches you how to kill a couple of mobs, then kill a boss. It's not much better than using oracles. You can't be a team player if you suck at your individual role. A good cleric and tank can pretty much mask the inabilites of a horrible player. Many more of these people speed level to 100 and we see them all the time.

    Sure you may not agree with it, but if you can't see the problem it means you're most likely part of it. b:bye

    Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »
    ]I understand my skills just fine by reading them.

    edit: You proved my last point. You understand your skills just by reading them? lmao
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Lylfo - Dreamweaver
    Lylfo - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »
    Like I said, all the ways of leveling are just a means to an end. Endgame is PvP and you get better at it by PvPing more not by doing more BHs. I can do all the zhenning, questing, grinding or rebirth I want but come level 100, I won't be needing any of that anymore.

    One thing I never understood is why people don't do rebirth. It gives better exp than BH. A lot better yet it's impossible to find squads for. It's hard but like any instance, once you've done it a few times and figured out a strategy, it's no harder than doing a successful frost run. At some point, people stopped doing rebirth and the newer generation just never got introduced to it.

    You need charms(people are poorer these days, with higher gold price), some squads wants exp-ed people, and you'll need very specific class(you can have 2 clerics in your bh squad, or even 5 clerics there, but you cannot have more than 1 in rebirth squad. You might wait 2-3 hours to get the last barb/DD needed in RB.) and after all that, you'll still have a bigger chance to fail in RB where as in BH, you can simply restart, RB does not offer you that luxury. Also, RB's time is kinda set, you'll have to spend a few hours on it, but BH, you can do 1 BH, do the entire chain, it is up to you. No such thing with RB, you'll have to complete it to make it worth your time. That's that i think. anything else you wana add?;)

    About oldies bashing BH, please do not bash BH. Just because you are seeing more higher level noobs, it does not mean that BH is responsible for all that.You might say, "I like lvl 80 noobs in TW more than lvl 100 noobs", but right now, I would actually aim for higher level than gears because higher levels enable you to do more things to farm for stuff(yea, I said that, lvl 100 offers another game content). Also about the argument of staying at lower levels long enough so that you can find friends to level and farm with, it does not really work now. Sorry, but if anyone is farming at a lower level, that is jsut doing it inefficiently. If 2x is good for anything, it should be making TT mats easily/cheaply available to everyone else. Right now, hypering to lvl 100 is a completely acceptable way to level even if it'll produce more higher level noobs. People can still work on their characters when they get there, don't think it is always good to have your weapon/gears made for the next 5 levels or so.

    That being said, I agree that level does not mean much in this game at the moment.

    Also, all the people doing BH on alts complaining about how fail the lower levels are, please do make an effort to tell them what is the right way to things. Venoes not debuffing, purging, passing spark? Tell them politely. Clerics not purifying? Tell them politely what to do. I mean if you jsut sit here complaining about how fail these people are, I am sure that they won't magically be better the next time they do BH.

    And Airyll, passing spark is your job when you are herc-tanking? Really? ....
    Thanks Chillum for the nice Sig.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Asheera - Raging Tide
    Asheera - Raging Tide Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Sure you may not agree with it, but if you can't see the problem it means you're most likely part of it. b:bye
    Me thinks Michael_Dark is actually one of those noobs who learn slow and blame everyone else or call them noobs if they are faster simply because he finds it unbelievable.

    You need a year to level to 100 to understand how to play this easy game... oh wait I forgot it's your first MMO and you already find it hard and needing a year to understand and master it.

    I played other games one of which was "new" with no info on boss strats, and they were 100 times harder than this in tactics. I discovered most of the tactics by myself of course, after like 200 wipes (not kidding) and wasting 12+ hours in one instance. On that hard boss which everyone was failing I failed only once in all 200 tries, because of the special tactics you needed. Oh but I guess what you find hard is "lots of hp, do your basic roles, with the only challenge being not getting bored and **** up before boss dies"

    Sorry I feel for you if you need so much time learning this easy game, probably you're one of those that needs to learn all your combos by rote also and can't make your own b:surrender


    Also I got once lol'd at for calling Nirvana or FC bosses with real "tactics" and harder than TT in that aspect. They said, in TT at least you can die, Nirvana is a breeze. Yes overall TT is harder because bosses hit hard and have terrible AoEs. But again, TT is just the basics of all MMOs nothing really special in it (except Armaggeddon) so for me it's the most simplistic approach close to just "Tank and spank". Whereas Nirvana has a few special tactics even if they are on easy mode compared to the other MMOs I played.

    Pretty much shows for me how in lack of real tactics some people on these forums are. But yeah you should feel proud you master a game like PWI
    First 103 on Raging Tide 30 Oct 2010
    Quit.
  • Asperitas - Lost City
    Asperitas - Lost City Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

    Also, all the people doing BH on alts complaining about how fail the lower levels are, please do make an effort to tell them what is the right way to things. Venoes not debuffing, purging, passing spark? Tell them politely. Clerics not purifying? Tell them politely what to do. I mean if you jsut sit here complaining about how fail these people are, I am sure that they won't magically be better the next time they do BH.

    And Airyll, passing spark is your job when you are herc-tanking? Really? ....

    There's only so many times you can deliver a lecture before your voice grows hoarse and your mind grows wary of these noobs who repeat mistakes over and over again. Things that should have been learned at level 30 are being learned at level 60. Mistakes that should have been corrected at level 50 are being repeated at level 80. The way the game is right now, you might as well just go play a private server. Start off at level 100 with +12 gears, and just go PVP. There's not much difference here. It's so obviously blatant faster, easier levelling breeds noobs. On a server I currently play, people have no idea how to stunlock, archers are tanking at close range while dealing half damage, people have no idea what drop-kiting is, it's ridiculous. THe same thing is happening here. People have no idea how to play their class, and the usual consequences that subsequently follows is being overridden by hyper frost and BH, the two things that require no brains whatsoever.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Also, all the people doing BH on alts complaining about how fail the lower levels are, please do make an effort to tell them what is the right way to things. Venoes not debuffing, purging, passing spark? Tell them politely. Clerics not purifying? Tell them politely what to do. I mean if you jsut sit here complaining about how fail these people are, I am sure that they won't magically be better the next time they do BH.

    How many times have you politely told someone how they could do something better? 90% of the time you get responses like 'I know exactly what I'm doing ****' or 'don't tell me how to play my class, I'm not telling you how to play yours', etc..

    And it's kinda sad when you see people not doing the things they should when they're 9x and higher. They should have learned most of that much earlier, but doing BH in pick-up parties doesn't really teach you much, and if a BH party fails, that's pretty horrible because you're all 10-20 levels higher than the instance.

    You shouldn't have to have higher level players constantly teaching you what to do. People need to stop feeling obligated to having higher levels do everything for them.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Me thinks Michael_Dark is actually one of those noobs who learn slow and blame everyone else or call them noobs if they are faster simply because he finds it unbelievable.

    lolubutthurt?

    Did you not see where I said I didn't have a problem with how fast people level? I just lol at how idiotic they are. Like you for instance. You think that you're pro as long as you can hit 100 as fast as you can.

    I played other games one of which was "new" with no info on boss strats, and they were 100 times harder than this in tactics. I discovered most of the tactics by myself of course, after like 200 wipes (not kidding) and wasting 12+ hours in one instance. On that hard boss which everyone was failing I failed only once in all 200 tries, because of the special tactics you needed. Oh but I guess what you find hard is "lots of hp, do your basic roles, with the only challenge being not getting bored and **** up before boss dies"

    lol what? That doesn't even make sense.

    This is PWI not some other game. Just like the last poster, I'm sure you understand all the skills because you can read them. lol Too bad you're not on LC, then you could prove me wrong. Guess why that's easy for nubs to act like they're so pro because they don't actually have to back it up. lol

    I find nothing hard in this game. And yeah, I'm a nub... that's why whenever there is a Delta Culti party that will most likely fail, I'm asked to help because I'm probably the best rebirth BM in my faction...
    Sorry I feel for you if you need so much time learning this easy game, probably you're one of those that needs to learn all your combos by rote also and can't make your own b:surrender

    /headspin
    Also I got once lol'd at for calling Nirvana or FC bosses with real "tactics" and harder than TT in that aspect.

    Nirvana was difficult... for like the first few days when it came out... when we actually had to figure out what to do because nobody had done it before. The only difficulty was learning what they did. A week later it's a cakewalk.

    Sorry Illusion Lord is not difficult. With bloodpaint I can solo it. A little more than 3 minutes in, you'll need to spark or absolute domain... exactly 3 minutes after he talks the second time, he'll try to one shot again. Even Emperor is more difficult than Illusion Lord.

    Pretty much shows for me how in lack of real tactics some people on these forums are. But yeah you should feel proud you master a game like PWI

    You're just an idiot and butthurt because I pointed it out to you. Like I said you're on a nub server and you're only as good as the people around you, so yeah, that speaks volumes.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Airyll - Dreamweaver
    Airyll - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,882 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Also, all the people doing BH on alts complaining about how fail the lower levels are, please do make an effort to tell them what is the right way to things. Venoes not debuffing, purging, passing spark? Tell them politely. Clerics not purifying? Tell them politely what to do. I mean if you jsut sit here complaining about how fail these people are, I am sure that they won't magically be better the next time they do BH.

    And Airyll, passing spark is your job when you are herc-tanking? Really? ....

    This has already been responded to, but I'll just add to it as well because it is important that this is heard. You can only tell somebody so many times. In regards to your last comment directed at me: yes. I have soloed BH59 from 70-77 because my experiences in BH in 51 were godawful and just as terrible.

    From 77-78 I tried to get back into squadding with people to try and get out there, make my veno some new friends and maybe see if it was any less of a fail then 51 had been. I've been sadly mistaken. EVERY squad I have been in has voted me to tank regardless of their being a perfectly suited barb, BM or anything else to tank. If I question the motion, I am booted. There's problem one. EVERY squad I have been in, if there has been more then one veno, leaves me to do ALL the veno chores. I have been in so many BH squads at this point where other venos will not amp, purge, lure or pass chi it's painful to think about. I am not kidding, I am not joking. Every. Single. Squad.

    According to your suggestion, I should tell every single one of these **** fools who can't play their characters - the venos in particular - nicely what to do. And you know what? For the first ten squads, I tried.

    "Please help me amp. We have three venos in this squad, we could get a consta-amp going if you guys helped out."
    "Guys, I'd appreciate if you could lure some of the mobs. It's getting tiring doing all the luring and tanking in this squad."
    "Guys there's a 79 barb in this squad who could hold aggro better than my Herc could and let you all deal damage faster, why are you making me tank this?"

    And so on, and so forth. Did any of these people get better? No. Did any of them listen? No, not really. Do I regret trying to squad in BH again? Most definitely, it stinks so full of failure that it hurts and this is experience talking after numerous squads with many, many people. Most of them sucked, or thought they could get away with being lazy because I actually knew how to play my class and tried hard to work with the others as a team.

    My point? You can't teach people who will not listen. After so many attempts at being nice, polite, asking if people needed help learning something (which is an issue in itself because 7x venomancers should know how to ****ing lure) and trying so hard to have patience with a bunch of lazy or incompetent (or both) asshats in squads, I have long given up. If people **** up, I will not help them. If a veno fails at luring hardcore? S/he can carry on failing hardcore because I'll be damned if I take over for somebody who couldn't be bothered to learn. Etc. etc.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Lylfo - Dreamweaver
    Lylfo - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »
    There's only so many times you can deliver a lecture before your voice grows hoarse and your mind grows wary of these noobs who repeat mistakes over and over again. Things that should have been learned at level 30 are being learned at level 60. Mistakes that should have been corrected at level 50 are being repeated at level 80. The way the game is right now, you might as well just go play a private server. Start off at level 100 with +12 gears, and just go PVP. There's not much difference here. It's so obviously blatant faster, easier levelling breeds noobs. On a server I currently play, people have no idea how to stunlock, archers are tanking at close range while dealing half damage, people have no idea what drop-kiting is, it's ridiculous. THe same thing is happening here. People have no idea how to play their class, and the usual consequences that subsequently follows is being overridden by hyper frost and BH, the two things that require no brains whatsoever.

    If everyone comes up and tell me that "You are doing it wrong", or "You should do it like this", I would have looked at my own character and see what I am doing "wrong". I mean, if everyone does it, the person(or noob) would either have to
    a. quit
    b. adapt
    c. remain told by everyone at that level how he/she is doing it wrong. trust me, you cannot really get very far if you fail to purify as a cleric or fail barb tanking.

    Also, some of your expectations are too high. A cleric purifying a BM tank in polearm. That requires both good BM and good cleric, and maybe even good squad members with genie skills to cancel the channeling. Don't set such a high standard for a random squad... its kinda dumb to do so. Instead, don't use a BM tank if the cleric cannot purify in time.

    Yes I get that there are noobs that just don't listen. When it comes to that, blacklist them, find a replacement for them and do your stuff. If you allow them to leech off the party, and stay useless, they will still be useless at higher levels....

    not defending the noobs that won't listen, but at least I am sure that there are noobs who will listen and calling them noob won't bring them any closer to be pros.
    Thanks Chillum for the nice Sig.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    My point? You can't teach people who will not listen. After so many attempts at being nice, polite, asking if people needed help learning something (which is an issue in itself because 7x venomancers should know how to ****ing lure) and trying so hard to have patience with a bunch of lazy or incompetent (or both) asshats in squads, I have long given up. If people **** up, I will not help them. If a veno fails at luring hardcore? S/he can carry on failing hardcore because I'll be damned if I take over for somebody who couldn't be bothered to learn. Etc. etc.

    It's really sad... I see people with venos as their main do worse than mine who leveled up with mostly Crazy Stones, Oracles, Orbs of Lonliness, Observation and Brainpower Orbs.

    How hard is it to foxform>amp>human>armor break>dd>fox>purge if necessary>amp rinse and repeat...

    Many venos don't even know how to lure properly, but you can send pet, stow, use pet tame, or even earthflame to lure.

    There is even some lvl 100 veno on these forums that never leveled up amp or purge and doesn't use foxform at all. I mean really. b:surrender
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • VlLKASS - Sanctuary
    VlLKASS - Sanctuary Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    If you haven't learned how to run a BH in 2 or 3 runs then you have problems.
    If you haven't learned how solo play from questing at lvls1-40 pre bh, so that you need more then you have problems.
    You learn more skills on the way, but if you need so much more practise to get accustomed to them... b:embarrass ...



    In about 90% cases after or pre whipe when I explain to a squad member what they were doing or about to do wrong they corrected themselves. The other 10% I was lazy, they were morrons or cause I did it on purpose & wanted to see them fail. Ppl actually listen if you try... If you too pro or cool to help & then QQ about a whipe that's your prob.

    Nirvana was difficult... for like the first few days when it came out... when we actually had to figure out what to do because nobody had done it before. The only difficulty was learning what they did. A week later it's a cakewalk.
    /facepalm he wasn't talking about the difficulty of nirvana vs TT. The TTs is just the basics hitting & taking hits without doing anything else while the boss is dead.
    In nirvana, even though easy as hell to tank you, actually need to move around, kill mobs, run around to npcs to avoid getting 1 hit by the Queen & etc. While after a few runs or somebody to teach you, it is easy; it's still different strategy wise than the usual TT.
    Bah w/e at least read what he writes, before you start posting stories about how you so pro & can solo TT that nobody cares about or has anything to do with the point he was making.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Lylfo - Dreamweaver
    Lylfo - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    This has already been responded to, but I'll just add to it as well because it is important that this is heard. You can only tell somebody so many times. In regards to your last comment directed at me: yes. I have soloed BH59 from 70-77 because my experiences in BH in 51 were godawful and just as terrible.

    From 77-78 I tried to get back into squadding with people to try and get out there, make my veno some new friends and maybe see if it was any less of a fail then 51 had been. I've been sadly mistaken. EVERY squad I have been in has voted me to tank regardless of their being a perfectly suited barb, BM or anything else to tank. If I question the motion, I am booted. There's problem one. EVERY squad I have been in, if there has been more then one veno, leaves me to do ALL the veno chores. I have been in so many BH squads at this point where other venos will not amp, purge, lure or pass chi it's painful to think about. I am not kidding, I am not joking. Every. Single. Squad.

    According to your suggestion, I should tell every single one of these **** fools who can't play their characters - the venos in particular - nicely what to do. And you know what? For the first ten squads, I tried.

    "Please help me amp. We have three venos in this squad, we could get a consta-amp going if you guys helped out."
    "Guys, I'd appreciate if you could lure some of the mobs. It's getting tiring doing all the luring and tanking in this squad."
    "Guys there's a 79 barb in this squad who could hold aggro better than my Herc could and let you all deal damage faster, why are you making me tank this?"

    And so on, and so forth. Did any of these people get better? No. Did any of them listen? No, not really. Do I regret trying to squad in BH again? Most definitely, it stinks so full of failure that it hurts and this is experience talking after numerous squads with many, many people. Most of them sucked, or thought they could get away with being lazy because I actually knew how to play my class and tried hard to work with the others as a team.

    My point? You can't teach people who will not listen. After so many attempts at being nice, polite, asking if people needed help learning something (which is an issue in itself because 7x venomancers should know how to ****ing lure) and trying so hard to have patience with a bunch of lazy or incompetent (or both) asshats in squads, I have long given up. If people **** up, I will not help them. If a veno fails at luring hardcore? S/he can carry on failing hardcore because I'll be damned if I take over for somebody who couldn't be bothered to learn. Etc. etc.

    Sigh, venoes tanking using herc still need to pass chi? ....thats my only point about you btw, other things are acceptable, not exactly the best way to do it, but I would not blame you for anything that goes wrong(like pulling, other people not listening after you tried telling them, etc)
    Thanks Chillum for the nice Sig.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Lylfo - Dreamweaver
    Lylfo - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    How many times have you politely told someone how they could do something better? 90% of the time you get responses like 'I know exactly what I'm doing ****' or 'don't tell me how to play my class, I'm not telling you how to play yours', etc..

    And it's kinda sad when you see people not doing the things they should when they're 9x and higher. They should have learned most of that much earlier, but doing BH in pick-up parties doesn't really teach you much, and if a BH party fails, that's pretty horrible because you're all 10-20 levels higher than the instance.

    You shouldn't have to have higher level players constantly teaching you what to do. People need to stop feeling obligated to having higher levels do everything for them.

    Sorry, maybe you should work on your communication skills. Most of the time, when I tell someone how to do something, they listen quite well. b:bye

    Yes you shouldn't need higher level people to teach you, but if the way works, why bother relearning everything again? We do not derive scientific formulas from scratch in schools, we learn how to derive them and what is the concept behind it. You can definitely apply that to this game.
    Thanks Chillum for the nice Sig.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »
    If you haven't learned how solo play from questing at lvls1-40 pre bh, so that you need more then you have problems.

    Actually, that's not quite true, you don't get all of your skils until you hit 59, and while the introduction of having to play in squads, initially, is a good thing, it usually just masks a players bad habits which continue until someone has to correct them, many times it's very late game when these problems are noticed by more experienced players.

    You learn more skills on the way, but if you need so much more practise to get accustomed to them... b:embarrass ...

    One of the things that playing longer affords the older players is instictive reaction. Instead of thinking what skill or what someone needs to do, no voluntary thought is needed and more situations become more reflexive instinct than processed thought.

    Sure, you can download CounterStrike and play for a week and know your weapons and moves, but that won't make you the most fantastic twitch gamer ever.

    In about 90% cases after or pre whipe when I explain to a squad member what they were doing or about to do wrong they corrected themselves. The other 10% I was lazy, they were morrons or cause I did it on purpose & wanted to see them fail. Ppl actually listen if you try... If you too pro or cool to help & then QQ about a whipe that's your prob.

    Most people get set in their ways, and if you try to tell them something, even politely, they either ignore it or get upset. Rarely do they actually listen to advice.

    /facepalm he wasn't talking about the difficulty of nirvana vs TT. The TTs is just the basics hitting & taking hits without doing anything else while the boss is dead.
    In nirvana, even though easy as hell to tank you, actually need to move around, kill mobs, run around to npcs to avoid getting 1 hit by the Queen & etc. While after a few runs or somebody to teach you, it is easy; it's still different strategy wise than the usual TT.
    Bah w/e at least read what he writes, before you start posting stories about how you so pro & can solo TT that nobody cares about or has anything to do with the point he was making.

    Whatever... Tactics in 3-3 aren't really any more difficult than they are in Nirvana, just different and Nirvana is just more like FC. The only difficulty is running chests at the last boss. I guess you're so quick to argue that you don't realize what I was actually trying to say.

    Because running is so difficult? Sorry screaming ***** and running boss aren't hard, and there isn't any 'tactics' required to do them. I guess you don't understand what tactics are.

    Illusion Lord isn't more difficult than Emperor. All Illusion Lord does is try to randomly one-shot someone every 3 minutes and self-buffs if he is successful. Emperor stuns, random aggros, physical AoEs and AoE earth DOTs. If your placement is wrong for Emperor, he'll kill the EPs while random aggroing the ranged classes. Idiot.

    Emperor + Minister + Steelation > Screaming ***** + Chest boss in time spent and tactics required. With Emperor, Minister and Steelation positioning is somewhat important. In Nirvana you just need to move a bit every now and then. b:bye
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Asheera - Raging Tide
    Asheera - Raging Tide Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    @Michael_Dark: lol typical noob replies as I figured, not to mention the first insults came from you if you look back (calling me idiot or noob etc)

    I don't insult people unless they insult me and you do the job well, all I can say this proves how insecure you are of your own abilities, calling others noobs etc.

    Your reply made me see that you're one of those butthurt noobs who think they're superior because of gear and mastering a game like PWI. Even the reply for Illusion Lord made me LOL proves my point. You say it's easy because you can solo, rofl. I said arma is at least the only special tactic in TT you have to do, but again, you proved what I told you, that you find hard things that hit hard and require lots of healing / good gear, instead of tactics like going immune every 3 min or you get one shot.

    Oh and positioning at Emperor is so freaking difficult you're right on spot, I mean you do position once at start, then stay there for the whole fight. Freaking Hard man.


    About running around, that's a very hard part indeed (no sarcasm), but when you have low time limits not like in this game. Consider that 4 people randomly must run to a random spot in 10 seconds, running there takes 8 secs. THAT'S real hard, not cakewalk like in this game where you have such a huge margin of error possible and still succeed.


    As I said keep thinking you're a great player and mocking others, should it ever happen for you to play a real tactical MMO remember my words when you'll be probably considered a fail and laughed at.
    First 103 on Raging Tide 30 Oct 2010
    Quit.
  • Airyll - Dreamweaver
    Airyll - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,882 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Sigh, venoes tanking using herc still need to pass chi? ....thats my only point about you btw, other things are acceptable, not exactly the best way to do it, but I would not blame you for anything that goes wrong(like pulling, other people not listening after you tried telling them, etc)

    Being made to amp while tanking with Herc I don't have an issue with. I do that when I solo anyway, albeit it sometimes takes a bit of timing and skill on my part because I sometimes get lag in instances - which makes keeping everything in order is a little more difficult for me. Similarly, being made to purge wouldn't be an issue.

    However, being made to tank, amp/purge, pass chi and use Ironwood to debuff because every single other veno is sitting there spamming Noxious or Venemous? That's not right and it's a huge sign of fail. And I suppose when you're made to be both chi support, debuffer and tanker, you get really sick and tired of being the lurer as well really fast, especially when there's another person (or two) in the squad to do it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Also, some of your expectations are too high. A cleric purifying a BM tank in polearm. That requires both good BM and good cleric, and maybe even good squad members with genie skills to cancel the channeling. Don't set such a high standard for a random squad... its kinda dumb to do so. Instead, don't use a BM tank if the cleric cannot purify in time.

    See, this is exactly the kind of problem we older players have.

    Back before all this hyper leveling BS started, you could join a random squad and EXPECT that you'd have a good cleric, a good BM, a veno that knew how to pull/debuff/pass sparks, good DDers that knew how to control their aggro depending on the situation, a good tank that could actually hold the aggro, etc.

    The very fact that you're saying we shouldn't expect to have a good cleric or BM, in and of itself, is part of the problem here My freaking archer was able to tank Wyern by her mid-60s with a single cleric solo healing because the cleric was also an older player who actually knew how to play well and I knew how to use my own skills to stay alive long enough to give her breathing room in case something went wrong.

    Yet at the same time, we have BHs where BMs who can use a freaking phys marrow to reduce Wyern's damage to something that tickles get killed there. Where Barbs are deciding to be lazy and not use ream to hold aggro. Where people think bramble is some magical aggro magnet that causes you to generate aggro if you have any mobs in the surrounding area, assuming the venos even know to use bramble to begin with. We have people who think that you can't do a boss like Jewels on-level because they have no clue how to play their classes properly.


    Sure, we used to have a few of these back then too... but guess what? They were the rarity, not the norm! I've seen so many level 9X venos that don't even use their fox skills that it's pathetic. I've been in TTs with 10X players telling me it's their first time in a TT ever and that they don't know what to do. I've been in situations where before, the random squads you could find would have been able to swiftly and quickly work together to regain control of the situation, yet now all that happened was that everyone went and got killed. When a level 85 Barb somehow dies to lion boss in 2-1 with BB, leaving a level 75 archer and a 97 archer to survive and it's the 75 archer who winds up successfully tanking because the other one can't out-aggro her, you know there's something wrong. When you're doing wurlord and the 84 veno sends her pet to attack, then has the pet run BACk to the squad, you know there's something wrong. When you're doing Pole with a 95 cleric and a 74 cleric and the 74 one has to cover for the 95 because he's too busy metal maging even though he had agreed to focus on the tank, you know there's something wrong. When you're doing Brig with a 95 sage barb and the level 73 archer steals aggro with an unrefined weapon without even sparking, you know there's something wrong.

    Situations like that used to be a rarity! Now they're considered common and stuff you need to be prepared for. If people actually knew their classes, knew their skills, and knew how to play, then this wouldn't happen. If BHs were really so great for teaching anything, then this wouldn't happen. If just reading your skills (which, for some reason, most don't even do anymore) was enough to teach you how and when to use them reflexively, then this wouldn't happen! ... But guess what? It DOES still happen. I don't know about you, I don't know about the others here defending how things are now, and I certainly don't know about all the random idiots I've been dealing with whenever I venture outside the safety of my established friends and faction members.... but I sure as hell see this as a problem that should NOT be there.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »
    About running around, that's a very hard part indeed (no sarcasm), but when you have low time limits not like in this game. Consider that 4 people randomly must run to a random spot in 10 seconds, running there takes 8 secs. THAT'S real hard, not cakewalk like in this game where you have such a huge margin of error possible and still succeed.

    Oh, yeah, hitting holy path is like.... so hard. And you're telling me I don't know how to play the game? Go away ffs. You don't recognize the problem because you're part of it. b:bye
    Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »
    more nub qq rant

    Read below:
    truekossy wrote: »
    Situations like that used to be a rarity! Now they're considered common and stuff you need to be prepared for. If people actually knew their classes, knew their skills, and knew how to play, then this wouldn't happen. If BHs were really so great for teaching anything, then this wouldn't happen. If just reading your skills (which, for some reason, most don't even do anymore) was enough to teach you how and when to use them reflexively, then this wouldn't happen! ... But guess what? It DOES still happen. I don't know about you, I don't know about the others here defending how things are now, and I certainly don't know about all the random idiots I've been dealing with whenever I venture outside the safety of my established friends and faction members.... but I sure as hell see this as a problem that should NOT be there.

    Hallelujah!

    /thread
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Asheera - Raging Tide
    Asheera - Raging Tide Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Oh, yeah, hitting holy path is like.... so hard.
    lol that game had no speed bonuses except rogue's with 5 min CD

    They could make it so that you need Holy Path or it's impossible in this one XD


    This is how an easy boss looks like in the other game, and compare with an easy boss in here:

    Hard hits on tank, small space in the room (like half of Runewolf one). Spawning "whirlwind" AoEs on tank that deal 4k / sec (with normal gear for that instance, that's 3 seconds to death for the tank, 2 for DDs). So tank must move from them as well as DDs.

    These whirlwinds happen like once every 20 seconds. Then he has instant kill AoE (like runewolf) but MUCH FASTER. He starts channeling it, and in 1 second after this it deals first hit which is a one shot, but he fires of 3 more in the next 3 seconds anyway. Range wasn't as ridiculous as runewolf, but still kinda large.

    Then, he sometimes buffs up in 2 second channel. This buff means he one shots everyone no exception. Buff lasts for like 20 sec, during which the tank needs to KITE. Also, he will use the instant kill AoE and whirlwind during this sometimes as well, and with the small space it makes it a bit easy to wipe if not careful.

    No, there was no purge in that game either. Also when he buffs up he slows down everyone in the party for 20 sec too, tank MUST be cleansed fast or he'll die.

    As if it wasn't enough, he will summon an add that dies kinda hard (like an elite instance mob). This add freezes one person randomly except tank and drains MP until the add is dead, can't cleanse it. Freeze means unable to do anything, so not moving either, couple this with the movements you need on this boss and it becomes deadly, especially if you do it the pro way with 1 cleric and he gets frozen (remember, tank gets slowed when boss buffs up. No cleric, no purify)


    Obviously you get a message when he does each of those (not to mention the game had a casting bar for mobs too to see better) so you're not toast.


    Is any PWI boss like that? No. And that was an easy one b:bye
    First 103 on Raging Tide 30 Oct 2010
    Quit.
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »
    *snip*

    And comparing a boss on some other game to PWI when we're talking about how poor player skill has become lately has what relevance again?

    Oh right, none. b:bye
  • Asheera - Raging Tide
    Asheera - Raging Tide Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    It doesn't, I replied about my opinion why some people suck before, then got called noob by Michael_Dark because, in his mind, I have to waste a year to learn this game like he did, because... it was my first MMO ever right?

    Sorry dude, when I started playing this game, I knew how aggro works, I knew how spells and AoEs and stuff work... skills a bit different but that's like nothing to learn.

    I didn't even need 1 year to learn about how MMOs work in my first one. So I was just saying, stop calling others who you don't even know noobs (especially when they didn't insult you... I didn't until he did) when you're one fail who needs all this time to learn and you try to apply it on others because you suck.

    And so called "pro"s don't call others noobs all the time like you do unless you're insecure of your own "proness" ijs


    EDIT: Also pulling is "easy mode" in this game too with venos/genies. Try pulling without and be careful of patrols, that's a nice challenge too. Especially when some mobs are DEADLY not like most in here.


    And the OP was talking about fail bh51, one fail was a cleric running into mobs... how is that a bad effect of fast leveling because of BH? Even if it was his first 51 run (I doubt he didn't do FB at 60+ though...) not noticing other members in squad and what they do is just plain stupid. Some people are natural "noobs" like that, you can't help it.

    If you fail at BHs it means the BHs are too damn hard for those ppl, yes I agree they suck but how is the BH the cause of their problems if they fail at it when they run?! (aka that should TRAIN them for it)
    First 103 on Raging Tide 30 Oct 2010
    Quit.
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Common scenario in BHs: "Oh since we suck too much to do this right, I'm gonna call my level 100+ friend to solo it while we all sit back, relax, and get to leech off them for free EXP far superior to any alternatives that are currently in-game"

    How does that train you to get any better at your class again? Especially when what you're already doing is so ridiculously easy that you shouldn't have had problems with it to begin with?
  • RoidAbuse - Sanctuary
    RoidAbuse - Sanctuary Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    truekossy wrote: »
    Common scenario in BHs: "Oh since we suck too much to do this right, I'm gonna call my level 100+ friend to solo it while we all sit back, relax, and get to leech off them for free EXP far superior to any alternatives that are currently in-game"

    That's what I do. b:pleased
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Making "non-trash-talkers" show their true color. RAGE ON! b:laugh
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »
    /deleted irrelevant information

    Is any PWI boss like that? No. And that was an easy one b:bye

    Umm... ever do old frost or old lunar? Or how about even old TT? Yes, you're so pro cause you've played 100 MMOs since you were born with a mouse in your hand. Good job. Go take your squad and kill Harpy Wraith... hell even go for Crystal Terror you can tank it on just bloodpaint, you're just pro... yeah, you learned more about this game in 4 months than I have been on the whole time. lol Typical nub attitude.

    It's all been nerfed. You're playing in easy mode now but people are having more difficulty doing easier things. Your points are meaningless.

    edit: So you're saying this game is so easy compared to your uber hard game that you came from. Why then are there so many more worse players here since BH and Hyper has been introduced? Of course if it's so easy here, why are people having such a hard time doing the most menial things? And if it's so easy compared to the game you came from, why are you here... aren't you bored of not having any real challenge? Care to contradict yourself more? You are a certifiable idiot.

    b:bye
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Mrvate - Heavens Tear
    Mrvate - Heavens Tear Posts: 406 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    truekossy wrote: »
    Common scenario in BHs: "Oh since we suck too much to do this right, I'm gonna call my level 100+ friend to solo it while we all sit back, relax, and get to leech off them for free EXP far superior to any alternatives that are currently in-game"

    How does that train you to get any better at your class again? Especially when what you're already doing is so ridiculously easy that you shouldn't have had problems with it to begin with?

    ^ though I do think bh's are a problem, (not that they should be removed but have a highly reduced reward) I think what this person mentions is more truth. I mean I don't think I ever even found a bh29 squad for my alt, I either joined a high lvl solo'ing it. or had a friend do it for me. bh39 I did a couple times with a real squad (you know tank, cleric, veno) but also had it solo'd by high lvl's mostly. Getting to bh51 and I've still found squads with high lvl's doing the instance for people.

    I go out grinding on mobs, and I join a squad. and mostly its some random lvl 100 killing all the mobs for the person. Either its a friend, faction mate, or the guys main. Which is why when lowbies ask me to help them with quests (other then bosses, or fb's) I tell them no. If you can't do your own quests, you're doing something wrong. Now go figure out how to do it properly, and you'll be fine.

    Just something I thought I'd add ^^
  • Lylfo - Dreamweaver
    Lylfo - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Being made to amp while tanking with Herc I don't have an issue with. I do that when I solo anyway, albeit it sometimes takes a bit of timing and skill on my part because I sometimes get lag in instances - which makes keeping everything in order is a little more difficult for me. Similarly, being made to purge wouldn't be an issue.

    However, being made to tank, amp/purge, pass chi and use Ironwood to debuff because every single other veno is sitting there spamming Noxious or Venemous? That's not right and it's a huge sign of fail. And I suppose when you're made to be both chi support, debuffer and tanker, you get really sick and tired of being the lurer as well really fast, especially when there's another person (or two) in the squad to do it.

    3rd time airyll, when you are herc tanking, please do not pass chi. Its like you want others to spark and pull aggro off your herc..., dumb in every single way.

    @truekossy How long did it take you playing your archer before knowing how to do wywern, know how to do this and that? How many times did you try before getting the hang of it? How long does it take if the current generation fail before asking for some high level to bail them out?

    During your time, if you cannot do wywern, no one can. Because you are most likely one of the higher level people. Right now, why resort to relearning everything again? I'm sure any properly geared archer can still do wywern, but I cannot guarantee whether they can successfully do it or not, because it depends on the players themselves.

    High expectations is a good thing, but if you expect high standards to be the norm(random squads to be good), then what do you expect from people who are really good??
    I'm quite sure you did your wywern run thingy with a trusted cleric. Would you go into such a hard boss without someone you trust?

    I mean be realistic, if you see the standard this low now, there is no reason to insist on higher standard characters when you do lowbie BHs. Why do you keep QQ-ing instead of helping them to be a good barb/cleric/veno/archer/wiz/bm/sin/psychic?
    Thanks Chillum for the nice Sig.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Astrohawke - Lost City
    Astrohawke - Lost City Posts: 199 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Why then are there so many more worse players here since BH and Hyper has been introduced? Of course if it's so easy here, why are people having such a hard time doing the most menial things?

    It's the player's fault NOT THE SYSTEM'S. They suck because they're stupid or lazy or whatever other reason. You can't blame the education system if you're illiterate when everyone else who went through the same system is perfectly fine. It just means you failed to do it right. Will failing you and making you repeat help fix the problem? Possibly if you decide to put in the effort to learn the 2nd time round but what you're suggesting is equivalent to failing the whole school because 1 person is illiterate. Everyone else doesn't have to suffer (slower leveling in this case) because of 1 person's failures.

    And I don't care how much better you think people were way back when because that's still just your opinion. You could be making it up just to prove your point, you may not have met many fail people which could be your luck or possibly you just didn't do enough FB/BH runs back then to meet as many fail people as you do now. I don't know. It doesn't mean anything because it's still just your perspective.

    There is nothing you have learnt in 2 years that I couldn't learn in 2 months. This game is that simple. I have never done a rebirth or nirvana but I guarantee you, if you take me through 4-5 successful runs and guide me through them, I will be able to do them just as well.

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