BH Issue

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Dear OP:

I looked at your signature and that answered everything. I recommend you look at your signature too, and then you'll realise how dumb it was of you to make this thread.

Enjoy the game.

ROFLb:chuckle I see what you mean

The irony is, anything I have to input in this thread has already been said, and you've conveniently ignored it. This is probably related to the "immunity to logic" you talk about.

After all, logic would dictate that if your random squads suck, stop going with random squads. If you can't be bothered to make a few friends in your level range to do runs with, then it's your own fault when you join a random squad and it happens to suck.

And if you've not been able to grasp that yet despite how many times I've seen it posted in this thread, you're dumber then we all give you credit for and you are probably the fail person causing the fails.

DevilishTaki - Lost City wrote: »

Lest see, yes random squads do suck and that can easily be remedied by *gasp* not going with random squads. However as I said before sometimes I can only play for a little bit at a time and so I can either stack them and wait for my own squad to be ready but the problem there is that you can only carry up to 4 BH's at a time. So I have to decide "perhaps I should wing it and hopefully get it done" or just let that BH go to waste.

And yes...I am so dumb for sacrificing myself to try and prevent party wipes or tank the rest of the boss to prevent a party wipe when our tank dies. I CLEARLY am the one at fault for party wipes. >_>

Why don't you just do yourself a favor and refrain from posting to cause more useless flame wars.

can I cook you for dinner? I want to make a fish sandwhich

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

Harder and challenging content forces a process of self-selection. People who suck too much and can't improve remove themself in search of a better game. People who are able to adapt become better players. You're left with a knowledgable player base. Give them mindless levels and you just have a bunch of drones who know when to activate hyper the ongoing prices of oracles.

This sounds like PWI before packs (when a high level,in general, went hand in hand with being a skilled player and the few who complained about how hard leveling was were told to suck t up) and after packs (when anyone with some $$ to spare can be a high level, maxed out, idiot who has no clue about even the basics of the game).

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Yes, there are far more stupid people leveling higher... as well as smart people who just haven't learned how to play their class. I guess this game should just give you a quick tutorial and then give you lvl 100 because you really don't need to learn how to play at all huh?

Your points don't even make any sense. Most of the content in this game is squad based and instance runs. How exactly would removing BH help people become better? Great so people have to grind from 1-100. What exactly does that teach me about squad based roles? While grinding all I do it kill mobs continuosly. As a barb I don't need to learn how to hold aggro, as a DD I don't need to know how to control aggro.

BH isn't the problem at all. Oracles...yes because if they oracle to 100 all they've done is killed 1 mob continuosly and haven't learnt anything about their class. BH gives people practise and helps them learn. It doesn't level them too fast to learn their class because over the course of level 40 when you start BH to 100, you do hundreds of them. If you haven't learnt what needs to be learnt after 10 or 20, it wouldn't matter if the game made you do 2000 more. You'd still be fail because you just haven't put in the effort to learn.

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

Where is the teamwork involved in BH? Pulling a mob here and there and wallhugging to the boss? This is why you see BMs autoattacking with axes on a boss. This is why you see barbs who ask "what's flesh ream?". This is why you see clerics ask "What's purify?". This is why you see veno's ask "What is amp and purge? Lending hand? Sure, how can I help you?" Basic things that should have been already ingrained into people's minds through trying to maximize their questing and grinding effectiveness have been so long forgotten that it's almost a norm to run with incompetent squads. Before all this levelling jazz, it was a frequent event to squad up with a bunch of other people at quest areas. In order to achieve a common goal of effective questing, people knew what maximized kills, what to stay away from, and what to do in case a member f*cks up. BH is one aspect of the game, however it has eliminated so many others. Zhenning. Rebirth. There are so many things people used to pick up for themselves on the way up to 100, but that's been long forgotten in an era of triple BH, world quest, crazy stone, marriage quest, oracles and hyper frost.

+1

BH makes failures because BH will only teach you so much. It does not teach teamwork. If it taught teamwork I wouldn't end up in BHs where barbs don't know what flesh ream is, where venos don't amp, where archers think STA is ****, where BMs haven't even learned HF, where clerics left IH at level 7 and purify at level 1. (And no I make none of these stories up.)

A cleric at 8x not having a maxed out IH was unheard of before BH came along. The people who couldn't play their classes would quit because they couldn't get squads because they didn't bother to learn.

BH doesn't take teamwork and very few squads bother to think it does. My 78 veno? She's made to tank with her Herc, lure, amp and give chi - even when there is another veno in the squad. That is not teamwork. Far from it. BH doesn't take teamwork because it's easy to complete and is effective power levelling from 40 - 80. Nobody does Gamma any more because it's easier and takes less teamwork to do BH.

BH is the easy-level-mode option that doesn't require a squad to work together, particularly randomly formed ones. It's funny people sit here and try and argue that BH has not given us some of the worst, poorly-formed squads in the game, when I hate to tell you it has. The quality of some BH squads?

If they RB'd, they'd fail round one and all end up 1k'd before they even saw any waves from round two.

You guys do realize you will never get through to the newer players that they aren't as good as they believe, right?

Few people actually work under the belief that they aren't average, or above average. It doesn't matter how crappy they play, no one really believes they are. So when things work in ways they are used to seeing, that is average or better. They do not have any comparison to understand they are actually bad. And if you throw out some of the knowledge an average person of before would know, they rationalize it away as they aren't nerds who slave away on the comp, or that it is only the great players who would know that.

Then you have factions, which do not help attitude-wise as well.

To give a point, I heard about a BH69 where everyone was trying to blame the BM tanking, and I listened in on the reasoning since I knew the BM. He was asking for purifies, and not getting them. Cleric said they didn't have split second reaction, but that was BS. You don't need that to heal/purify someone in BH69, just basic competence. Get the timing down, and Purify whether needed or not so it goes off right after AoE does. Simple, and effective. Instead they would be 5-7 secs behind, and tank dies. The cleric used barb's being able to survive as an excuse for why it wasn't their fault, but the fact is it was because they were not a good cleric.

And BHs give no cause for that cleric to ever bother learning timing. Just get a barb, and whenever they feel like doing Purify will work, because the higher health allows their incompetence to still make it through. But since that cleric was liked, everyone in faction reassured them, and said how good a cleric they were.

Bottom line: No matter how good the arguement that BHs breed incompetence is, it will not ever work. Because every bad player reading it is thinking one thing; "they must be talking about someone else, because it isn't me."

Just get a barb, and whenever they feel like doing Purify will work

Aha! So it's the barb's fault!


I still don't get how you learn team based play from questing, solo grinding or doing justice till 100.
Lol I remember we had a 101 bm in squad in RB for his 1st time. This happened pre bh/hype... We explained to him what to do & he did fine. If the person not a total imbecile if you ask to do smth they will be fine. In the 1st case, taking away bhs/hyp etc won't really help.

How about..
my barb: can you purify me and heal?
cleric: yea sure i know i must
~me dead~
my barb: why you didn't purify?
cleric: i didn't know when..
barb: when u ll see red icon near buffs on me, ok?
cleric: ok no problem
~cleric and me dead~
barb: why you wasn't heal yourself?
cleric: cause i was healing you..
barb: use pots and heal yourself sometimes and stay out of range aoe attack.
cleric: ok
~me dead~
barb: ...
cleric: hey i couldn't heal you cause boss could hit me aoe!

I don't think that's a case of BH spoiling smb, it's just an idiot...
Besides you don't really need puri that much till 51 (though most squads want bb on wyvern) & 69. Yet you already expect them to know all about it & be pro.

When I was playing my very 1st char cleric. The 1st time I was asked for puri was in my fb 69. I never needed to use it before that...

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Umm...seriously. If anything, grinding and questing is more apt to people just hitting their macro, killing mobs, and healing inbetween. It doesn't take much skill to that at all.

Grinding and questing teaches you how to survive on your own without aid. This is the first step in learning your class. If you don't know how to survive on your own, you shouldn't squad with people and put them at risk (which is exactly what you do.)

BH teaches you how to work in a group for a particular instance. Sense would say that after a few BH runs, people should know what they're doing. And yet, they don't. Venos still don't seem to realise they have Metabolic Boost, Nature's Grace AND Soul Transfusion and they're still dying. Barbarians still don't know that FR is the skill you need to level if you're going to tank. Archers still think STA is ****. BH may be teaching some people how to squad up but it sure as hell isn't teaching them the right thing. When a cleric thinks they don't have to level up Ironheart, has a level 2 revive and didn't bother to learn purify, you can't sit here and tell me BH has taught them anything useful.

BHs go wrong because nobody is bothering to learn how to survive on their own without aid. They don't learn their basic skills and basic skill combos because OMFG questing and grinding is apparently so hard. This means when things **** up in a BH, they have no idea what to do in order to survive, themselves, nevermind save squad members.

Airyll you are missing the point entirely. Whether or not these people know what their skills do and how they're supposed to use their characters has nothing to do with BH and everything to do with the person behind the character.

I have played none of those characters and I know exactly what those attacks do and how and when to use them because I observe what good people I have partied with have been doing. If there were no BHs and I'm just grinding non-stop, I would have even less interaction with other classes and no clue at all.

The BHs that do go wrong are more from people who are TOO used to solo grinding. Why would the barb bother to use flesh ream while soloing. Why would the DD bother to control aggro when they're the only one attacking. It's stuff like this that causes party wipes in BHs because people think they can do everything by themselves and do whatever it is they do while grinding.

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Look at all the BH nubs trying to say it's not the fault of the BH system leveling people too fast. It really is. I'm not saying to change it back to the way it was, but not putting the blame where it clearly belongs is sad and funny at the same time.

<snip>

Back in the day, we used to run any particular FB shortly after doing our own. Even though many of the parties were only doing fb's at their level or slightly higher, without genies or blessings, fail was far less common. Now you have BHs where parties 15-20 levels higher fail regularly.

<snip>


The thing is, I see lots of fail characters, even up to lvl 100. Fast leveling has pushed them to a higher arbitrary number and give plenty of experience points, not given them more in-game experience.
<snip>

Before BH, nobody really complained about how difficult it was to level. Most people were comfortable with the pace. Go search the forums yourself. Look back 9 months to a year and a half ago. There are really no complaints. The whole 'speed level' approach was installed by the company to rush people to end game so they have to spend real money to be competitive.

It didn't bother me it took me nearly a year to hit 100. It doesn't bother me that you can do it now in about 3-4 months if you do all your dalies and BHs. It doesn't bother me that you can do it in as little as 4-5 weeks either. I just lol at the results. Yes, people who have been playing for a year can tell when a nub is a nub, even if the squad isn't fail. Not putting blame where it lies is the issue I'm addressing. lol

+1

Well said.

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

This discussion is going nowhere because people are arguing that you need to remove BH so people can be better at their characters and not fail so much in BH lol.

This discussion is going nowhere because you think this is what we're saying.

Let's put it really simply so your little narrowminded self might be able to understand:

We don't want BH removed. We won't miss it if it disappeared tomorrow, sure, but that doesn't mean we want it gone. What we want is to have the system revised because as it stands it is far too much EXP for such an easy job - an easy job that people are failing at because no BH doesn't teach you abso-freaking-lutely everything you need to know about your character and yes a little grinding outside of BH on these things called "quests" would teach you a little bit more.

BHs fail because nobody bothers to learn how to survive on their own, meaning when they end up with aggro in a BH they sit there spamming the wrong skills crying "WTF DO I DO?!?!?!?!?" and nobody else knows WTF to do either. FB squads before BH would fail, yes, but they would never fail so badly and hardly any of the players back then were of the same standard of sheer stupidity and incompetence that people are now.

Read again: BH teaches you very little besides how to run one dungeon over on repeat with hardly any teamwork. They regularly fail and **** up because players of today's standard are more failures then players of a year ago.

BH needs to be made more difficult with the same rewards, so maybe people would have to learn how to use teamwork rather then just idly pottering along one aside the other and mostly working alone, or the rewards need to be decreased.

Get it yet? Where does that say "Take BH out right now"? Oh wait. It doesn't.

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

Pulling mobs and wall-hugging is only part of the BH. The other part is fighting the boss. That's when barbs learn how to hold aggro, DDs learn how to control aggro, clerics learn how to heal and purify, venos learn how to amp and give the barb chi etc. You don't learn any of these things from grinding on mobs even if you do squad for quests. And to be honest, if people learnt how to pull mobs and wall hug properly, there wouldn't be deaths leading up to the boss in a BH.

And what exactly is this harsh journey needed to understand your character lol. If I can learn wtf these skills do just by reading the description and watching some people use them in a squad, you sure as hell don't need to grind from 1-100 to learn how to use them.

This discussion is going nowhere because people are arguing that you need to remove BH so people can be better at their characters and not fail so much in BH lol.

You can read the skills, you can watch people use them. But when the time comes, will you be able to pull it off in a split second? When a horde of mobs comes, will the first thought that crosses your mind be to stun? Or to toss chi to the cleric so they can pull up a BB? Or to seal any mobs attacking the cleric? Nobody doubts your literacy. But it's only through experience you have these things ingrained into your mind, so that it takes no more than a split second to do the right thing - you've done it so many times it's almost instinct.

Basically, Airyll's summed up what I'm trying to convey. No doubt BH teaches you some aspects of the game. I'm sure it reinforces cooperation and cohesiveness, but the reward is so much it overshadows other aspects of the game. The reward, is in fact so ridiculously high nobody does anything else beside BH and hyper frost.

And the problem with this, is that you lose out on all the other parts that you're supposed to be experiencing - parts that all come together to make a good player.

TL;DR
BH/hyper frost rewards are so high that nobody does anything else anymore, therefore missing out on those experiences, ultimately leading to lowered quality of players.

PS: Yes oracles were available, but they were never abundant, which is really the problem.