Relative max damage of the different classes

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

The reaction you're getting is similar to the reaction I got when I once pointed out that Perfect World subscribes to the "holy trinity" of modern RPG design, namely that there are really only 3 roles: Tank, Healer, and DPS. Individual characters may blur the lines between these roles depending upon the situation, but the basic gameplay mechanic is that somebody is Tanking, enough are Healing, and the rest are DDing.

If it were true, we wouldn't have purge, interrupts, luring, or fashion.

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Those aren't necessary. As long as you have a tank, DD, and healer, you can kill a boss. You don't need purge, interrupts, and luring. They're good to have but not required.

You don't need dd or healer either.

Cyanea - Lost City wrote: »

In the same way, you do not need DD. The tank can do enough damage to kill the boss.

Sure, is it time efficient? Are you willing to lose that much coins and charm just to solo tank?
It takes 3 roles to be efficient when you have to kill a boss; DDs, tank, healer. A interval fist/claw user assumes all 3 roles and is probably more time efficient than 3 traditional roles combined. Charm cost is nothing compared to what they can profit from high lvl TTs.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I should've known anything but direct numeric comparisons would go over most people's heads. I thought the concept of using best and worst possible cases to establish min and max bounds for adjustment to data was simple enough to grok, but I guess not.

Please post the values given to each class to determine their level of contribution. Once we know these numbers, your data would become more relevant. Until then, comparing scores between different classes means little to nothing unless points are given out equally per mob. I haven't seen anyone list contribution points given per mob kill. Still, that's besides the fact that the points distributed to any specific class are given in this one particular circumstance.

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that -int bm, archers and barbs out DD pretty much every class. Apparently barbs with demon Poison Fang will out DD a fist/claw BM if the gear is identical, but that's not the issue.

The issue is that you're being overly defensive about assumptions based on numbers with no real context.

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Please post the values given to each class to determine their level of contribution. Once we know these numbers, your data would become more relevant. Until then, comparing scores between different classes means little to nothing unless points are given out equally per mob. I haven't seen anyone list contribution points given per mob kill. Still, that's besides the fact that the points distributed to any specific class are given in this one particular circumstance.

I gain 7 contribution per mob from the North Arch Nien Minions, 35 per for the West Arch Nien Minions, and 70 per for the South Arch Nein Minions. 100 per for Burrowing, 150 per for Stalking.

However, it's not at the Minions stage that interval-geared BMs have the biggest advantage, but at the Nien Captains and Nien Beasts themselves. If anything, I'd say either archers or perhaps AOEing wizards/BMs should do best at the first stage. Never really compared scores at that point though to back up my theory.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The popularity of the Nienbeast event gives us a unique opportunity to gauge the relative maximum damage over time of the different classes towards endgame. Each individual is awarded contribution in proportion to their damage. The score sheet handily breaks it down by class too.

So here are the contribution scores for the top 7 ranked members of each class on HT during the 9pm event on the 23rd:

Blademaster	20171	18432	17682	15809	11468	9173	9117
Wizard		4665	4225	4089	3986	3959	3653	3460
Cleric		9693	9677	8321	8100	5158	4068	4015
Archer		9830	9726	9501	8647	8618	6605	5344
Barbarian	8614	4510	4367	3803	3799	3739	3727
Venomancer	7813	7387	5380	5362	4979	4583	4164
Assassin	5994	5648	5305	4547	4021	4003	3715
Psychic		4271	4129	3170	3040	2591	2475	2322

Summary
Average - Normalized - Class
14550 - 100.0% - Blademaster
8324 - 57.2% - Archer
7005 - 48.1% - Cleric
5667 - 38.9% - Venomancer
4748 - 32.6% - Assassin
4651 - 32.0% - Barbarian
4005 - 27.5%- Wizard
3143 - 21.6% - Psychic

If there were any question that the interval system and fist weapons are seriously fubar and overpowered, I think settles it. In a max-damage endgame build, BMs are doing roughly 2x-3x as much DPS as any of the other classes. Possibly even more since there's no way to tell how much the first two factors are mitigating their contribution scores. The numbers were pretty similar for the 4pm nienbeast event as well. Feel free to check them on your server.

Not quite sure how you could be anymore wrong, you need to take into consideration that people party with people, so sometimes you see a veno with 14k points. Also, BMs do 2-3 times more damage then anyone else? So wrong..GTIMIKEE can get 20k+ points when he soloes and he's an archer. This event is the WORST way you can determine true DPS power.

Also, you based your calculations off of just 1 event?

I'm going to have to say that maybe the BM's in your server were the top players out of all those who played... because sins and bm's on Raging Tide server are always fighting with top places, mixed in with other classes as well.... yet from your results all the sins were at the bottom of the scores...... b:bye

*edit* also couldn't help to notice that the newest classes were at the bottom of the list...

SurferGirl - Dreamweaver wrote: »

all in all. INT is 2 op and should be nerfed for a class to hit 5 hits a sec its 2 unrealstic

Naw, they just need to change BM name into "Kenshiro".


Apparently, ppl in DW are spamming expel on the top int people now.

SurferGirl - Dreamweaver wrote: »

all in all. INT is 2 op and should be nerfed for a class to hit 5 hits a sec its 2 unrealstic and in events like nien there is no match for other class's to beat it on our server there is always the 3 bms at the top followed by 2 fist archers as top 5

while casting class's are always last, and if their somewhere in the top its cuz they squad with int geard ppl, but uselly they always solo since they can do better on their own.

And I think mage damage output should be cut by more than half (on top of normal PvP damage reduction) in PvP. When you have wizards that can gush for 4-6k, BIDS for 20k in PvP, mages with over 12k pdef, hitting bosses in GV for over 300k, they are just broken and should be nerfed as well.

As a BM with full -int and +10 claws, end-game wizards are just too deadly and too hard to kill. Distance shrink should also be nerfed... a stun is a stun. And lvl 11 stone barrier is just OP. :P

See, I can do that too. lol

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

And I think mage damage output should be cut by more than half (on top of normal PvP damage reduction) in PvP. When you have wizards that can gush for 4-6k, BIDS for 20k in PvP, mages with over 12k pdef, hitting bosses in GV for over 300k, they are just broken and should be nerfed as well.

As a BM with full -int and +10 claws, end-game wizards are just too deadly and too hard to kill. Distance shrink should also be nerfed... a stun is a stun. And lvl 11 stone barrier is just OP. :P

See, I can do that too. lol

You are ridiculously funny.
300k over 5 seconds cast and very hard to build chi. That's really broken.

When will people realize wizard DPS is horrible. Apparently numbers and facts are not enough for some people. The irony is that the game is a computer program whether you like it or not, which works 100% on math. (I'm not talking about this event btw, I cannot stress how many times I tried to show the math behind the numbers in various threads).

Spike damage means NOTHING DPS-wise. NOTHING. And our DPS is horrible.

Let me tell something to all people who are "shocked" or "disappointed" that wizards are so low on the list. Believing something won't make it true no matter how much you want it. End of story. Wizard DPS is ****. And people don't want to see it.

When I get more contribution points than some high level wizards (95+) by doing fedex quests it should tell something...


And BTW on my server psychics are way above wizards, but that's probably because it's a newer server where wizards and psychics had equal opportunity for stuff, unlike older ones where the wizards had much more time to build their chars before the tideborn expansion... so that's not really fair.

I wasn't talking about noob BM vs uber mage b:chuckle

Heck not even BM vs mage, cause you know, in the event, or TT runs, or whatever, I don't think you're fighting mages, but maybe I'm just stupid right.

Apparently you haven't heard of Will Of The Bodhisatva either, or Alter Marrow Magical, or Holy Path, or Absolute Domain, or... wait maybe that's too much to expect from someone who only has to spark and auto attack right?

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

I wasn't talking about noob BM vs uber mage b:chuckle

Heck not even BM vs mage, cause you know, in the event, or TT runs, or whatever, I don't think you're fighting mages, but maybe I'm just stupid right.

Apparently you haven't heard of Will Of The Bodhisatva either, or Alter Marrow Magical, or Holy Path, or Absolute Domain, or... wait maybe that's too much to expect from someone who only has to spark and auto attack right?

I don't know if you have been on a PvP server or in 100+ TW, but I have. I can tell you, if both BM and mage are 100+ and average refine is at least +7 with event gears, mage can easily one-shot a BM with crit, and kill in two hits if not critting.

Oh and you shouldn't be using marrows in PvP too much. It usually means a death from other classes; PvP is usually group PvP.

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why are you talking about PvP when he's talking about DPS?

Since he commented on Michael's post that was partly about PvP.

angellicdeity wrote: »

The results are skewed because of the fact they were taken on a PvE Server on a biased event.



1) Bosses dont have powerful short range AOE's like most do.
2) Everyone is PK Protected.




If you come onto lost city you'll find that BM's arent neccessarily always on top. Many claw/fist users arent on top. Why? not many people play with their PK-Protections on. So every time they so happen to AOE - thats some nasty hits all melee users will take.



Mage + 3 Spark + Blade Tempest or Ice Dragon Strike will wipe out almost every claw/fist user killing nien bosses.

actually the opposite... I see only claw/fist users for top 20... except God_Evil.

lvl11 skills won't change DPS much. They only add a few constant damage, which is negligible at end-game when your base magic attack is several times that.

Unless you mean the effects from them, like Sage BIDS, but it's only a 15% on average damage increase for 10 secs and uses 2 sparks. And no we can't build chi like fist/claw users.

Furthermore, to clarify the point that the mobs/bosses have higher magic defense than physical defense (which is true), almost always the bosses have been Undined by someone. I never had to Undine them myself (you can say I was a leecher :P).

And frankly, only the last stage really matters in terms of DPS potential. That's where the tens of thousands of contribution points come from.