Relative max damage of the different classes

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Comments

  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The reaction you're getting is similar to the reaction I got when I once pointed out that Perfect World subscribes to the "holy trinity" of modern RPG design, namely that there are really only 3 roles: Tank, Healer, and DPS. Individual characters may blur the lines between these roles depending upon the situation, but the basic gameplay mechanic is that somebody is Tanking, enough are Healing, and the rest are DDing.

    If it were true, we wouldn't have purge, interrupts, luring, or fashion.
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  • RoidAbuse - Sanctuary
    RoidAbuse - Sanctuary Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    If it were true, we wouldn't have purge, interrupts, luring, or fashion.

    Those aren't necessary. As long as you have a tank, DD, and healer, you can kill a boss. You don't need purge, interrupts, and luring. They're good to have but not required.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Making "non-trash-talkers" show their true color. RAGE ON! b:laugh
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Those aren't necessary. As long as you have a tank, DD, and healer, you can kill a boss. You don't need purge, interrupts, and luring. They're good to have but not required.

    You don't need dd or healer either.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • RoidAbuse - Sanctuary
    RoidAbuse - Sanctuary Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    You don't need dd or healer either.

    Of course not but is it time efficient or worth it to go that way? Sure a barb can charm tank and DD but you usually lose more than you gain with the traditional tank build. The only way it is efficient is if the player is a fist/claw user with high interval who can perm spark but then that goes back to what Warren was saying.
    Or a veno but I don't think a veno can even compare to fist/claw interval users in term of DD capability and time efficiency.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Making "non-trash-talkers" show their true color. RAGE ON! b:laugh
  • RoidAbuse - Sanctuary
    RoidAbuse - Sanctuary Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    In the same way, you do not need DD. The tank can do enough damage to kill the boss.

    Sure, is it time efficient? Are you willing to lose that much coins and charm just to solo tank?
    It takes 3 roles to be efficient when you have to kill a boss; DDs, tank, healer. A interval fist/claw user assumes all 3 roles and is probably more time efficient than 3 traditional roles combined. Charm cost is nothing compared to what they can profit from high lvl TTs.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Making "non-trash-talkers" show their true color. RAGE ON! b:laugh
  • Rillien - Heavens Tear
    Rillien - Heavens Tear Posts: 569 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The reaction you're getting is similar to the reaction I got

    b:laugh Looks like you're getting it all over again.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I should've known anything but direct numeric comparisons would go over most people's heads. I thought the concept of using best and worst possible cases to establish min and max bounds for adjustment to data was simple enough to grok, but I guess not.

    Please post the values given to each class to determine their level of contribution. Once we know these numbers, your data would become more relevant. Until then, comparing scores between different classes means little to nothing unless points are given out equally per mob. I haven't seen anyone list contribution points given per mob kill. Still, that's besides the fact that the points distributed to any specific class are given in this one particular circumstance.

    I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that -int bm, archers and barbs out DD pretty much every class. Apparently barbs with demon Poison Fang will out DD a fist/claw BM if the gear is identical, but that's not the issue.

    The issue is that you're being overly defensive about assumptions based on numbers with no real context.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Aubree - Dreamweaver
    Aubree - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,868 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The OP I think is right. I consistently come in as #2 cleric as long as I squad with my hubby, who has 5aps. Because I share his contributions, if I go solo I come in around ummm last lol The scores are directly related to dps.

    Now what I wonder is... If everyone solod it..... what would the contributions between each cllass look like. My guess would be a greater contribution gap between the -int people and others.
  • Brigid - Harshlands
    Brigid - Harshlands Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Please post the values given to each class to determine their level of contribution. Once we know these numbers, your data would become more relevant. Until then, comparing scores between different classes means little to nothing unless points are given out equally per mob. I haven't seen anyone list contribution points given per mob kill. Still, that's besides the fact that the points distributed to any specific class are given in this one particular circumstance.

    I gain 7 contribution per mob from the North Arch Nien Minions, 35 per for the West Arch Nien Minions, and 70 per for the South Arch Nein Minions. 100 per for Burrowing, 150 per for Stalking.

    However, it's not at the Minions stage that interval-geared BMs have the biggest advantage, but at the Nien Captains and Nien Beasts themselves. If anything, I'd say either archers or perhaps AOEing wizards/BMs should do best at the first stage. Never really compared scores at that point though to back up my theory.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I gain 7 contribution per mob from the North Arch Nien Minions, 35 per for the West Arch Nien Minions, and 70 per for the South Arch Nein Minions. 100 per for Burrowing, 150 per for Stalking.

    However, it's not at the Minions stage that interval-geared BMs have the biggest advantage, but at the Nien Captains and Nien Beasts themselves. If anything, I'd say either archers or perhaps AOEing wizards/BMs should do best at the first stage. Never really compared scores at that point though to back up my theory.

    I get 79 ea at south arch. As for where the biggest advantage is, that doesn't matter. Reread my post. If I'm getting 79 contribution points per mob and you are only getting 70, is the same ratio/score being applied to the bosses as well? If the answer is yes, that would lead to further imbalance of the calculated stats when trying to compare relative damage output of various classes as the OP is trying to do.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Mystic-Night - Heavens Tear
    Mystic-Night - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The popularity of the Nienbeast event gives us a unique opportunity to gauge the relative maximum damage over time of the different classes towards endgame. Each individual is awarded contribution in proportion to their damage. The score sheet handily breaks it down by class too.

    So here are the contribution scores for the top 7 ranked members of each class on HT during the 9pm event on the 23rd:
    Blademaster	20171	18432	17682	15809	11468	9173	9117
    Wizard		4665	4225	4089	3986	3959	3653	3460
    Cleric		9693	9677	8321	8100	5158	4068	4015
    Archer		9830	9726	9501	8647	8618	6605	5344
    Barbarian	8614	4510	4367	3803	3799	3739	3727
    Venomancer	7813	7387	5380	5362	4979	4583	4164
    Assassin	5994	5648	5305	4547	4021	4003	3715
    Psychic		4271	4129	3170	3040	2591	2475	2322
    

    Summary
    Average - Normalized - Class
    14550 - 100.0% - Blademaster
    8324 - 57.2% - Archer
    7005 - 48.1% - Cleric
    5667 - 38.9% - Venomancer
    4748 - 32.6% - Assassin
    4651 - 32.0% - Barbarian
    4005 - 27.5%- Wizard
    3143 - 21.6% - Psychic

    If there were any question that the interval system and fist weapons are seriously fubar and overpowered, I think settles it. In a max-damage endgame build, BMs are doing roughly 2x-3x as much DPS as any of the other classes. Possibly even more since there's no way to tell how much the first two factors are mitigating their contribution scores. The numbers were pretty similar for the 4pm nienbeast event as well. Feel free to check them on your server.

    Not quite sure how you could be anymore wrong, you need to take into consideration that people party with people, so sometimes you see a veno with 14k points. Also, BMs do 2-3 times more damage then anyone else? So wrong..GTIMIKEE can get 20k+ points when he soloes and he's an archer. This event is the WORST way you can determine true DPS power.

    Also, you based your calculations off of just 1 event?
  • Brigid - Harshlands
    Brigid - Harshlands Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I get 79 ea at south arch. As for where the biggest advantage is, that doesn't matter. Reread my post. If I'm getting 79 contribution points per mob and you are only getting 70, is the same ratio/score being applied to the bosses as well? If the answer is yes, that would lead to further imbalance of the calculated stats when trying to compare relative damage output of various classes as the OP is trying to do.
    Agreed. The second part of my post was basically just me going off on a slightly related tangent, and had very little to do with the debate at hand.
  • Xx_Kaoru_xX - Raging Tide
    Xx_Kaoru_xX - Raging Tide Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I'm going to have to say that maybe the BM's in your server were the top players out of all those who played... because sins and bm's on Raging Tide server are always fighting with top places, mixed in with other classes as well.... yet from your results all the sins were at the bottom of the scores...... b:bye

    *edit* also couldn't help to notice that the newest classes were at the bottom of the list... :o
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  • SurferGirl - Dreamweaver
    SurferGirl - Dreamweaver Posts: 415 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    all in all. INT is 2 op and should be nerfed for a class to hit 5 hits a sec its 2 unrealstic and in events like nien there is no match for other class's to beat it on our server there is always the 3 bms at the top followed by 2 fist archers as top 5

    while casting class's are always last, and if their somewhere in the top its cuz they squad with int geard ppl, but uselly they always solo since they can do better on their own.
  • volst
    volst Posts: 180
    edited May 2010
    all in all. INT is 2 op and should be nerfed for a class to hit 5 hits a sec its 2 unrealstic

    Naw, they just need to change BM name into "Kenshiro".


    Apparently, ppl in DW are spamming expel on the top int people now.
  • SurferGirl - Dreamweaver
    SurferGirl - Dreamweaver Posts: 415 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    volst wrote: »
    Naw, they just need to change BM name into "Kenshiro".


    Apparently, ppl in DW are spamming expel on the top int people now.

    not just them. i got expeled 4 times in the last event, frankly i rather use my genie for cloud eruption for constant sage spark
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    all in all. INT is 2 op and should be nerfed for a class to hit 5 hits a sec its 2 unrealstic and in events like nien there is no match for other class's to beat it on our server there is always the 3 bms at the top followed by 2 fist archers as top 5

    while casting class's are always last, and if their somewhere in the top its cuz they squad with int geard ppl, but uselly they always solo since they can do better on their own.

    And I think mage damage output should be cut by more than half (on top of normal PvP damage reduction) in PvP. When you have wizards that can gush for 4-6k, BIDS for 20k in PvP, mages with over 12k pdef, hitting bosses in GV for over 300k, they are just broken and should be nerfed as well.

    As a BM with full -int and +10 claws, end-game wizards are just too deadly and too hard to kill. Distance shrink should also be nerfed... a stun is a stun. And lvl 11 stone barrier is just OP. :P

    See, I can do that too. lol
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • oyamajio
    oyamajio Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    And I think mage damage output should be cut by more than half (on top of normal PvP damage reduction) in PvP. When you have wizards that can gush for 4-6k, BIDS for 20k in PvP, mages with over 12k pdef, hitting bosses in GV for over 300k, they are just broken and should be nerfed as well.

    As a BM with full -int and +10 claws, end-game wizards are just too deadly and too hard to kill. Distance shrink should also be nerfed... a stun is a stun. And lvl 11 stone barrier is just OP. :P

    See, I can do that too. lol

    Ok this is the first time you got my vote. It's pretty summarizing everything. b:bye
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    And I think mage damage output should be cut by more than half (on top of normal PvP damage reduction) in PvP. When you have wizards that can gush for 4-6k, BIDS for 20k in PvP, mages with over 12k pdef, hitting bosses in GV for over 300k, they are just broken and should be nerfed as well.

    As a BM with full -int and +10 claws, end-game wizards are just too deadly and too hard to kill. Distance shrink should also be nerfed... a stun is a stun. And lvl 11 stone barrier is just OP. :P

    See, I can do that too. lol
    You are ridiculously funny.
    300k over 5 seconds cast and very hard to build chi. That's really broken.

    When will people realize wizard DPS is horrible. Apparently numbers and facts are not enough for some people. The irony is that the game is a computer program whether you like it or not, which works 100% on math. (I'm not talking about this event btw, I cannot stress how many times I tried to show the math behind the numbers in various threads).

    Spike damage means NOTHING DPS-wise. NOTHING. And our DPS is horrible.

    Let me tell something to all people who are "shocked" or "disappointed" that wizards are so low on the list. Believing something won't make it true no matter how much you want it. End of story. Wizard DPS is ****. And people don't want to see it.

    When I get more contribution points than some high level wizards (95+) by doing fedex quests it should tell something...


    And BTW on my server psychics are way above wizards, but that's probably because it's a newer server where wizards and psychics had equal opportunity for stuff, unlike older ones where the wizards had much more time to build their chars before the tideborn expansion... so that's not really fair.
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    You are ridiculously funny.
    300k over 5 seconds cast and very hard to build chi. That's really broken.

    When will people realize wizard DPS is horrible. Apparently numbers and facts are not enough for some people. The irony is that the game is a computer program whether you like it or not, which works 100% on math. (I'm not talking about this event btw, I cannot stress how many times I tried to show the math behind the numbers in various threads).

    Spike damage means NOTHING DPS-wise. NOTHING. And our DPS is horrible.

    Let me tell something to all people who are "shocked" or "disappointed" that wizards are so low on the list. Believing something won't make it true no matter how much you want it. End of story. Wizard DPS is ****. And people don't want to see it.

    When I get more contribution points than some high level wizards (95+) by doing fedex quests it should tell something...


    And BTW on my server psychics are way above wizards, but that's probably because it's a newer server where wizards and psychics had equal opportunity for stuff, unlike older ones where the wizards had much more time to build their chars before the tideborn expansion... so that's not really fair.

    Let's see. BM and mage are facing each other. Mage starts with Gush and then throws a Pyrogram. Dead BM there.
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I wasn't talking about noob BM vs uber mage b:chuckle

    Heck not even BM vs mage, cause you know, in the event, or TT runs, or whatever, I don't think you're fighting mages, but maybe I'm just stupid right.

    Apparently you haven't heard of Will Of The Bodhisatva either, or Alter Marrow Magical, or Holy Path, or Absolute Domain, or... wait maybe that's too much to expect from someone who only has to spark and auto attack right?
  • Mumintroll - Heavens Tear
    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,393 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Ok fakts now.
    I cannot beat fist BM or normal BM without vacuity potion, because of stunt.
    On another hand with vacuity potion is BM piece of cake.
    Our DPS is totally useless.
    This game is so unbalanced in many ways not just at this event. That's reason why I stopped using real money.b:angry
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I wasn't talking about noob BM vs uber mage b:chuckle

    Heck not even BM vs mage, cause you know, in the event, or TT runs, or whatever, I don't think you're fighting mages, but maybe I'm just stupid right.

    Apparently you haven't heard of Will Of The Bodhisatva either, or Alter Marrow Magical, or Holy Path, or Absolute Domain, or... wait maybe that's too much to expect from someone who only has to spark and auto attack right?

    I don't know if you have been on a PvP server or in 100+ TW, but I have. I can tell you, if both BM and mage are 100+ and average refine is at least +7 with event gears, mage can easily one-shot a BM with crit, and kill in two hits if not critting.

    Oh and you shouldn't be using marrows in PvP too much. It usually means a death from other classes; PvP is usually group PvP.
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • RoidAbuse - Sanctuary
    RoidAbuse - Sanctuary Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I don't know if you have been on a PvP server or in 100+ TW, but I have. I can tell you, if both BM and mage are 100+ and average refine is at least +7 with event gears, mage can easily one-shot a BM with crit, and kill in two hits if not critting.

    Oh and you shouldn't be using marrows in PvP too much. It usually means a death from other classes; PvP is usually group PvP.

    Why are you talking about PvP when he's talking about DPS?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Making "non-trash-talkers" show their true color. RAGE ON! b:laugh
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Why are you talking about PvP when he's talking about DPS?

    Since he commented on Michael's post that was partly about PvP.
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The results are skewed because of the fact they were taken on a PvE Server on a biased event.



    1) Bosses dont have powerful short range AOE's like most do.
    2) Everyone is PK Protected.




    If you come onto lost city you'll find that BM's arent neccessarily always on top. Many claw/fist users arent on top. Why? not many people play with their PK-Protections on. So every time they so happen to AOE - thats some nasty hits all melee users will take.



    Mage + 3 Spark + Blade Tempest or Ice Dragon Strike will wipe out almost every claw/fist user killing nien bosses.
  • FoxyGurlly - Lost City
    FoxyGurlly - Lost City Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The results are skewed because of the fact they were taken on a PvE Server on a biased event.



    1) Bosses dont have powerful short range AOE's like most do.
    2) Everyone is PK Protected.




    If you come onto lost city you'll find that BM's arent neccessarily always on top. Many claw/fist users arent on top. Why? not many people play with their PK-Protections on. So every time they so happen to AOE - thats some nasty hits all melee users will take.



    Mage + 3 Spark + Blade Tempest or Ice Dragon Strike will wipe out almost every claw/fist user killing nien bosses.
    actually the opposite... I see only claw/fist users for top 20... except God_Evil.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    You are ridiculously funny.
    300k over 5 seconds cast and very hard to build chi. That's really broken.

    When will people realize wizard DPS is horrible. Apparently numbers and facts are not enough for some people. The irony is that the game is a computer program whether you like it or not, which works 100% on math. (I'm not talking about this event btw, I cannot stress how many times I tried to show the math behind the numbers in various threads).

    Spike damage means NOTHING DPS-wise. NOTHING. And our DPS is horrible.

    Let me tell something to all people who are "shocked" or "disappointed" that wizards are so low on the list. Believing something won't make it true no matter how much you want it. End of story. Wizard DPS is ****. And people don't want to see it.

    When I get more contribution points than some high level wizards (95+) by doing fedex quests it should tell something...


    And BTW on my server psychics are way above wizards, but that's probably because it's a newer server where wizards and psychics had equal opportunity for stuff, unlike older ones where the wizards had much more time to build their chars before the tideborn expansion... so that's not really fair.


    OMG you are one extremely dull butter knife.

    I guess obvious sarcasm isn't obvious without a /sarcasm

    /sarcasm

    (deja vu)

    edit: Hit 100, get your important lvl11 skills and then come back to me and tell me mage isn't broken. I'll still lol at you though.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    lvl11 skills won't change DPS much. They only add a few constant damage, which is negligible at end-game when your base magic attack is several times that.

    Unless you mean the effects from them, like Sage BIDS, but it's only a 15% on average damage increase for 10 secs and uses 2 sparks. And no we can't build chi like fist/claw users.

    Furthermore, to clarify the point that the mobs/bosses have higher magic defense than physical defense (which is true), almost always the bosses have been Undined by someone. I never had to Undine them myself (you can say I was a leecher :P).

    And frankly, only the last stage really matters in terms of DPS potential. That's where the tens of thousands of contribution points come from.