Relative max damage of the different classes
Comments
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For what it's worth:
Dreamweaver
24th May 2010 9pm Event
370 ParticipantsBM Wizard Cleric Archer Barb Venomancer Assassin Psychic Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total 1 984 19386 496 4729 153 9619 12 11843 696 3397 971 5889 620 12457 627 3568 2 418 16882 823 4706 886 9508 44 11217 74 3325 655 5655 937 6799 497 3400 3 525 14676 383 3908 696 8559 866 10407 319 3215 411 5051 182 4192 378 3339 4 687 8665 543 3527 502 8510 365 8991 209 3084 79 4406 933 3999 561 2978 5 198 8215 845 3520 42 6792 880 8893 772 3051 75 4180 688 3724 243 2871 6 914 7154 33 3362 404 4732 374 8453 949 2986 833 3670 21 3492 195 2846 7 204 6784 387 3348 936 4349 377 7399 89 2875 861 3407 736 3420 810 2791
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On a serious note...
OP, if you were to use these statistics on a science or statistical project, you'd get an F.
You have no controlled factors, just a bunch of randomly generated ones leading to randomly generated results.
Look, it's obvious Barbs do not outdamage Wizards and Psys, and yet your statistics show them doing it. It's obvious that there are far less Psychics than there are BM's, yet your statistics make no mention of it. It's clear that some contribution is earned via patience quests and randomly generated contri, but you make no mention of it.
Why are Psy and Sin scores probably lower? Because these classes haven't been around as long. The longer a class has been around, the more that class has been thoroughly tested and thus the best builds are found. Also, better builds thrive on competition, and with the competition among BM's having a good two years on sin competition, of course the BM competition will be more intense.
Why are Wizards and Psys ranked so low? Because wtf, no one plays them. Wizards are hell to level and thus many people quit before high levels. Psys on the other hand seem to bore a lot of people, since you basically use the same two damn skills your whole life; again, people quit before high levels. Lower levels means lower scores.
If you want a REAL comparison of damage capacity of each class, find a level 80 of each class with only the NPC gear for that class and level, forbid them from doing the quests during the event and ignore the random contri. THAT'S how you track data and get results. Your data lacks any controlled factors, and thus it's inaccurate.
Like I said though, you should've known that the moment you saw Wizards and Psys ranked at the bottom for damage output.I
AGOREY0 -
Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »On a serious note...
Like I said though, you should've known that the moment you saw Wizards and Psys ranked at the bottom for damage output.
Still does not explains the Cleric's contribution and the Barb's unless they are fist users.
Can be explained if they squad with good DDs.
DOes this mean that psychics and wizards are the most anti social class in pwi?Thanks Chillum for the nice Sig.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »On a serious note...
Why are Psy and Sin scores probably lower? Because these classes haven't been around as long.
Why are Wizards and Psys ranked so low? Because wtf, no one plays them. Wizards are hell to level and thus many people quit before high levels. Psys on the other hand seem to bore a lot of people, since you basically use the same two damn skills your whole life; again, people quit before high levels. Lower levels means lower scores.
I do think this was mentioned by the OP at some point in time. And there aren't many definitive conclusions you can draw from the data, but that doesn't stop it from being fun to speculate on.0 -
All things being equal, BMs will always have the most damage output because
a) demon fist mastery (+75% weapon damage to every attack, which on decent fists is quite a bit)
b) the atk/sec cap of 5, which means archers can't get 8.88 like they (theoretically) could if the cap wasn't there. Demon BMs can get a base atk/sec of 4, yet they only need 3.33 to get 5 sparked.
However, this is about the only thing your survey proves, because of the different groups of people who will and won't attend the event.
For example, I'm fairly sure my husband has the best axes on the server (to my knowledge, the only stage2 nirvana axes actually), yet he doesn't attend the event. Why? Because he'll tick his charm in about 10 seconds flat of DDing, and he'd need a cleric to heal him full-time to not spend more money than he'd make. Yes, nirvana axes zerk that often.
Yet, someone else said barbs were placing high in the overall scores with nirvana axes. I'm sure they are, yet no one on HT is doing this even though I know atleast my husband could be.
Other classes we don't have as many of - for example, I've yet to see a highly geared psy - or they simply don't want to come. I know of a wizard who has basically the highest damage output you can get without warsoul weapon, yet he doesn't do the event.
The basic flaw is you're assuming all things are equal for each class. But they're not. If they were, you'd get a much more accurate assessment.
Oh - and my nix's 5k dps in the event would matter a lot more if they were [?] mobs, which is a different aspect of the game (instances) and the main reason venos are considered overpowered.HT clerics at their finest:
hari: can you do mdef debuffs? makes the fight go faster
naughty_x: waste, I do more damage without them
hari: ...you do more damage in 2 seconds than reducing mdef by 35% for 4 casters does in 20 seconds?
naughty_x: is waste, i do more damage
hari: 3-3 BH goes a lot faster with a sin
naughty_x: no, only a difference of like 3 minutes
hari: ...we've been in here a lot longer than 3 minutes already
naughty_x: your opinion0 -
Actually it always is zulus main squad + sins at the top on harshlands
yep they should have made those mobs lvl 150 =D*Faildom*
I don't need a Squad
Level a Venomancer to 90.
Aug 12, 20090 -
Other factors that may contribute to servers high score variation:
Total server population
Total server participation
(more participation and population on the server= lower score per-person)
Whether the servers cooperate and kill 1 boss at a time
The outliers on that cooperation
(those who take advantage of the lower population bosses get higher scores)
Average refines and weapon grades of the different classes
(Several times an archer with +12 claws has outscored the many bms with +10 claws by greater than 8k)
Whether individual clerics try to **** with the scores on specific bosses (Seal of the gods)
(Seal of the gods skews the total score on bosses it's used on in favor of those doing damage on the other bosses who can get to the boss being sealed and dd it as well as having dd'd on others increasing their overall score)Main:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Alts:
Lypiphera 101 Cleric
Incompetance 100 Blademaster
MetalPenguin 101 Seeker
b:dirtySolara_Craft/Disarmonia_Xb:dirty0 -
As a matter of fact, yes, I do consider it a bug, and have stated so here in the past even though my main is a veno. I consider it terribly unfair to the other classes. I'm disappointed the devs apparently don't consider it to be a bug, and apparently the protests here over the last year and half hasn't changed their mind.ShadowsWrath - Heavens Tear wrote: »Using the same logic I would assume you think pets not getting Dmg reduction on [?] bosses is fubar and OPed and should be nurfed ?
We are arguing in circles. I understand what you're saying, you don't have to repeat it. What I'm saying is that I consider your explanation to strain the bounds of probability. Either the high BM contribution is due to (A) all the players who research and plan to maximize their contribution and had high end gear happening to play BMs, or (B) BMs doing more DPS. I consider explanation (B) far more likely.Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »In the data you posted, the BMs at the event likely knew more, due to out-scoring the other classes so handily. You say everyone was at the event, and that they all had high end gear. On our server, there would not be that large a disparity. So either HT has some real clueless people in general, or the BMs pulled away because the other classes who did have the knowledge of what to do, weren't there. It's really simple, but given how you like to editorialize with little data, I can see how it keeps confusing you.
And please, lay off the ad hominems. We are discussing the usefulness of the data and methodology. FWIW, I think you're bringing up good points too. The fist archer bit was good, I had to snip it to cut down the length of my reply. The Sanctuary and DW stats posted seem to have "found" them though.
As a matter of fact, CoA was the first place I ran into an interval fist BM. He was the first and so far only non-veno who was able to steal and hold aggro from my herc in there.Here's an idea, why not just go to a CoA event, and watch how long it takes relatively for one class to kill a mob vs. another class.
I'll be sure to tell my grad school stats profs that. I'm sure they'll be surprised considering I aced their courses. b:chuckleLongknife - Harshlands wrote: »OP, if you were to use these statistics on a science or statistical project, you'd get an F.
Perfect data only happens in high school and intro college stats courses. Real world data is almost never perfect. You do the best you can with imperfect data. Try to identify factors which add randomness, control for it if you can, account for it if you can't. Then you throw it out there for your peers to look over and comment/criticize/improve and hopefully duplicate. Just because the data isn't perfect doesn't make it useless. Every statistical study I've run across has had at least one caveat regarding the reliability of the data or methodology. If your standard for accepting a conclusion is that all factors be accounted for and controlled, then you're going to have to reject most of 20th and 21st century science and research.You have no controlled factors, just a bunch of randomly generated ones leading to randomly generated results.
Last paragraph of my OP: "Assassins and psychics probably scored so low because they're relatively new and there are few of them which are at high level. The low ranking for wizards surprised me. But they're pretty rare too, and their forte is really spike damage. I forgot to record the number of each class which participated this time around. I'll be sure to get that next time."Look, it's obvious Barbs do not outdamage Wizards and Psys, and yet your statistics show them doing it. It's obvious that there are far less Psychics than there are BM's, yet your statistics make no mention of it.
First and third bullets of my OP: "There's a random value added to the final score. But that should even out with a larger sample. Since on average it's the same for everyone, it helps lower scoring classes proportionately more, meaning any imbalance revealed by the rankings is actually worse than the numbers indicate."It's clear that some contribution is earned via patience quests and randomly generated contri, but you make no mention of it.
"You can gain contribution by doing timed and fedex quests. The amounts of these rewards are relatively small (a few hundred points max), so it should be safe to ignore them. The top contributors score thousands or tens of thousands of points, so they have to be getting most of their points from damage."0 -
Wanna know why those datas are wrong? Take for example my server, yesterday. All from top of each class is from a guild called Zulu except sin. They do some good squads yet a sin from other guild with no interval daggers/tome/cape is able to score almost as high as them. That barb from top has alot more points than the other barbs or wiz and ofc he was in squad with the others from top. Some better wizards than that one from first place are only able to score 2nd or more since they are mostly solo.
I can continue with this but I think you got my point. Of course as a fact ppl with highest score are still interval BM's.0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Here are the rankings for Sanctuary on 5/24/10 - 4:00PM
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4301/wizw.png
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3997/veno.png
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/9243/siniv.png
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/695/psyk.png
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/8881/clericg.png
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2119/32231268.png
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/4349/barby.png
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3738/arch.png
Archers hold the top 6 spots
ast... u take the one day im not doing it
me and satsu consistently went over 10k..both sins 0 -
*Another Big Fail Thread*
You have to account for the players' gears, skills, stats and brain. Anyway, I don't even need to collect a bunch of useless statistics to know who can do the highest damage. It's been settled- 5attk/s demon spark bm ranks the top. But higher damage is very subjective.
PS: Asterelle, you're looking at your +10 lunar bow and tons of interval gears, and TheDan, a sage bm with only +7 TT100 fist and 4 attk/s when spark, if my memory serves.0 -
b:cry Only got 25 random points and it bumped me to 4th last night b:cry
I still like the event though b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
RoidAbuse is awesome, only he would sell his sperm for gear!!
"Toughest monster? ..... RedsRose b:surrender" - Kantorek
Where is my 1 v 1 Kan? b:mischievous0 -
_I_eat_fish_ - Sanctuary wrote: »ast... u take the one day im not doing it me and satsu consistently went over 10k..both sins
*sadly plays the world's smallest violin[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Pfft...Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »I'll be sure to tell my grad school stats profs that. I'm sure they'll be surprised considering I aced their courses. b:chuckle
Like as if their opinion matters. This is teh interwebs. Your knowledge and education won't help you here. And while you're at it, please stop it with all the facts and logic too. It's annoying. b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Dreamweaver 25th May 2010 4pm EST Event
BM Wizard Cleric Archer Barb Venomancer Assassin Psychic Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total 1 788 28058 832 4827 900 10162 68 15561 122 10441 127 5443 49 11800 13 3973 2 770 19912 912 4294 476 9326 104 9300 389 4979 791 4475 835 9973 545 3338 3 859 9709 897 4137 739 6996 980 9288 884 4672 980 4355 810 9450 600 3211 4 120 9647 327 4075 782 4171 644 8798 703 4224 67 4251 809 7625 232 3075 5 182 9444 429 3835 667 4024 132 8444 892 3983 818 3952 869 5503 266 2982 6 973 9351 177 3411 663 3804 433 7353 818 3850 634 3804 592 4280 464 2975 7 252 8638 847 3201 909 3786 832 6952 959 3781 68 3658 303 4208 918 2961
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Where I can find statistics of event? tyb:thanks[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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25th May 2010 Dreamweaver 9pm EST Nien Beast Event
BM Wizard Cleric Archer Barb Venomancer Assassin Psychic Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total Random Total 1 320 23214 629 5175 705 7929 840 17828 902 4826 676 11313 348 11843 173 11630 2 679 19268 542 4378 437 7218 260 11113 798 4041 799 6521 808 10858 902 4313 3 779 12236 444 4205 715 5430 900 9809 946 3967 335 5967 824 6715 887 4028 4 89 7777 938 3577 938 4632 727 9056 160 3966 710 5937 141 6685 280 3883 5 374 7600 195 3202 741 4453 859 8689 113 3765 750 5824 637 3976 257 3583 6 625 6885 406 3058 503 4357 110 8456 679 3638 862 5766 928 3967 564 3496 7 634 5174 175 2908 48 4237 613 8230 689 3540 345 5209 796 3876 551 3492
I might stop doing this now as i'm not sure this is really going anywhere.
Regards.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
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_I_eat_fish_ - Sanctuary wrote: »
For the record I DC'd and started 2 mins late >O[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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I should've known anything but direct numeric comparisons would go over most people's heads. I thought the concept of using best and worst possible cases to establish min and max bounds for adjustment to data was simple enough to grok, but I guess not.WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »Like as if their opinion matters. This is teh interwebs. Your knowledge and education won't help you here. And while you're at it, please stop it with all the facts and logic too. It's annoying. b:chuckle
You just join the event when it happens. Once you become part of the public quest, you can see the contribution rankings of the top 20 or so players of each class at any time while the quest is running.Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »Where I can find statistics of event? tyb:thanks
The real surprise so far has been the relatively low contrib for wizards across all three servers which have posted stats. Surely there are some decked out wizards nuking these things for all they're worth. Then I thought, maybe the mobs have higher mdef. I had assumed that their pdef = mdef since that was the fair way to do it. But then I realized if each class is awarded prizes based on contrib score within the class, fairness between classes doesn't really matter. So I checked the database:
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/mob/27720
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/mob/27719
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/mob/27718
Sure enough, 1545 pdef vs. 2650 mdef, which is a pretty substantial difference. Unlike the other objections which have been posted so far, that actually would cast doubt on the "-interval does too much damage" theory. Elemental attacks are having their damage reduced on these mobs to a greater extent than melee, cleric Plume Shot, and veno pets. (Not sure what damage type psychics do.)
The only class adversely affected by this are venos, since they can switch between melee and casting. This defense difference unfairly favors melee fox venos (which mine happens to be). During the next attack I can attend, I'm gonna try running my veno with full melee gear to see how she scores.0 -
Noticed the bit about the mobs having greater mdef; I was able to get substantially higher contributions spamming plume shot continuously [have the sage skilll] than alternating sage whirlwind and plume.
However, on bosses I would assume that at least one wizard would keep the boss constantly undined, so this should help them by way of damage [extra elemental debuff on top of all other debuffs].0 -
I`d actually be curious what are the top scores for a barb, on any server? I myself have gotten 10,2k, on event 1,5h ago actually, yet I believe barbs should be able to get a lot more as my wep is quite horrible. So I`m wondering if anybody can give me a score I can look in awe as I dun think any other barb has gotten past 10k on Archosaur, though there is one quite close, at least on events I have entered.Trolling Sid since So Hot
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yes bms are very over powered, i know somone who has nirvana claws only 8+ that can hit me for over 4k (spark)(with 1 hit). My amor kida sucks atm, cuz im recasting, but i have nirvana top0
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Ok, here i have post my game with 1 psyok, i have play with a Damage Dealer magic
100 point from west minions (1 minions solo, probably other 40 minions shot with other player)
60 point from capitain (i have start to damage from 90-95% of healt)
400 point from Boss (i have start to damage from 98% of healt)
Total = 560 point + 438 random point = 998
position 17 into my ranking list...never gift.
The position 16 of psy ranking list have 1044 point and have rich box
Now, i have used 4 of my MP bar = 24.000 MP.
My skill consume 150 each point = 160 shot.
7% critical = 11 critical
7-8K medium damage, 15-16K critical.
149*7.5+11*15K=1282.5K of damage...(1.2825KK)
Minions have 50K HP, capitain 37KK, boss 118KK.
118+37+40*0.05=157KK
1,2825KK/157KK=0.817% contribution
Now my friend is a barb.
Damage 600-1000 each shot... and have 1500 contribution point
I have make 0.817% of each mob/boss that i have attacked.
Event have 410 partecipant.
Now if i make the canculation also with general mob:
118*5+37*3+2010*0.05=590KK+111KK+100.5KK=801.5KK
My contribution is 0.160% with 1000 contribution point (500 random point)
Now 410 people in event = 1.9549KK each people (0.2439%).
I have make 1.2825KK of damage... and i have only 988 contribution point (with 500 random point)
But i am psy 80, Damage Dealer with 7% crit. Barb, veno, bm, dont is damage dealer
Each level increase damage of 1% approximately.
Now at lv 100, probably i make 1.2825*1.20=1,539KK of damage.
If 1 archer lv 100 make every time critical (*2) and also try to insert infinte fury status (*3), this is 1.539*6=9.234KK
Ok, 9.234/801.5KK=1.1521% (20-26K without 1000 random point = 19-26K to joint the first place of general ranking list).
Finally:
0.160% : 500-600 contribution point = 1.1521% : archer point that have
Archer point that have= 1.1521*500-600 / 0.160 = 3600-4320 and not 19.000-26.000
(my friend barb last day into guild make 3000 contribution point and it is lv 80, i have make 1050 contribution point, 300 random, 300 from time patience, more minions lv 50, capitain to 100% HP, boss to 96% hp and 1 erbs 150 point.... and i have make party with my friend barb)
b:angry
what problem have this event with Psy damage dealer? Have problem also the Wizard damage dealer!
Sure that into server exist lv 100 psy and wizzard, but never see that they win the general ranking list.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
Sure enough, 1545 pdef vs. 2650 mdef, which is a pretty substantial difference. Unlike the other objections which have been posted so far, that actually would cast doubt on the "-interval does too much damage" theory. Elemental attacks are having their damage reduced on these mobs to a greater extent than melee, cleric Plume Shot, and veno pets. (Not sure what damage type psychics do.)
You're study on this matter is a waste of time because there are too many variables that you are not considering. "-interval does too much damage" is not a theory, it's a fact. You just don't want to accept this fact that a class with 5 aps using fists/claws with interval gear can deal a constant damage of 50-60k per second non crits.
- Have you ever heard of a place called Valley of Reciprocity in Rebirth?
- Did you know that the mobs in that instance have a much higher physical defense than magic defense? We are talking about mobs with a difference of 3k+ between phys. and mag. defense, which dwarfs the difference between the mobs you selected in the event for your study.
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/mob/17127
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/mob/17182
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/mob/17109
- Did you know that an archer with Demon Barrage will steal aggro easily with those mobs in RB from practically anyone whether it be a barb with superb aggro skills or a wizards' DB due to the attack interval reduction of Demon Barrage?
I have tested out myself with barrage on the final boss in the nien beast attack event, and I've gotten far less contribution points than I would have with constant sparking and using fists with stacked interval. FYI, archers' blazing arrow buff does add extra magic attack damage to fists/claws. Something to consider if you are to compare fist/claw bms and archers when it comes to mobs with varying defenses.Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »The only class adversely affected by this are venos, since they can switch between melee and casting. This defense difference unfairly favors melee fox venos (which mine happens to be). During the next attack I can attend, I'm gonna try running my veno with full melee gear to see how she scores.
This test run will not help you in disproving that '-interval does too much damage'. Of course using magic attacks on a mob with high magic defense is not as good as using physical attacks, it's LOGIC. You don't even need to test that.Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »The popularity of the Nienbeast event gives us a unique opportunity to gauge the relative maximum damage over time of the different classes towards endgame. Each individual is awarded contribution in proportion to their damage. The score sheet handily breaks it down by class too.
Factors that you are not aware of when comparing class damage using this event
- Some people uses unique builds such as archers, clerics, and venos using a HA build.
- Level of players, and their gear type. On the Sanctuary server, there are actually less than 20 sins and psy participating in the event at certain times, and over halve of then are under level 80. Using this event for your study of class damage is not fair for the new classes. In addition, most don't even have their level 11 skills yet.
- The attack methods they use - as you've seen with venos using nix, hercs, and magic/melee weapons.
- Lag: even an end game player with gears that may seem to give them a huge damage advantage might not do well in this competition because of lag.
- Time spent killing the final Nien Beast: The more time you spend killing the final boss, the more contribution points you get. For a fist/claw bm or archer with 5 aps, even 30 secs can mean a great deal of points. It's logic that the more high level players killing the boss, the less time another has killing it, and will waste time teleporting to the next unkilled nien beast.
- The data you are basing your study on consists of the top 20 scores of each class. It is not enough for anyone to reach a solid conclusion as to which class does the most damage. Not everyone (best of each class in terms of equipments they have) participates in this event. Some do it on a normal basis and have more experience in scoring more points.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »I should've known anything but direct numeric comparisons would go over most people's heads. I thought the concept of using best and worst possible cases to establish min and max bounds for adjustment to data was simple enough to grok, but I guess not.
unfortunately this
I noticed this trend after the first few rounds.
yes melee are somewhat gimped on the mob round (at least it would seem) but to whoever said "we must literally be on top of the mob to do any damage" did u not get a single ranged bm skill? thats what i see bms using during that part. I believe it was the same person that said that bms win cuz theyre smarter. if you so smart why dont u use the ranged skill. I'm a cleric and on one round i couldnt even tab and cast cyclone before the mob was dead all i saw on my info panel was interrupt over and over again.
it is interesting to watch the scores as the event progresses. after the first round all the top people of all the classes have around the same scores which actually leads to the first round being basically even. after the second round with the captains or whatever they are the people who will win have pulled out ahead by a few thousand. after the neins are dead is when the top few have thousands more than anyone. at least this is what I have seen on DW.
I dont know what kinda damage a wiz at about 100 can do but lets say that he is demon and he spams his 3 fastest skills all demon skills (pyro, gush, and stone rain.) lets also say that he averages 50k, 50k, and 75k respectively (these numbers may be a bit high not sure). given the channel and cast and channeling gear he will about 30k dps. someone earlier mentioned a bm hitting them for 4k which would be 16k pve. lets say that demon sparked a bm hits for 12k per hit at 5 atks/sec. that is 48k dps (after you count the time to spark each time). (didnt count spark so much for wiz cuz they only get to cast a couple but 5 aps bms can permaspark).
a trend is a trend whether people believe it or not. did you know the company I work sells a product that uses statistics and trends to determine the content of pharmaceutical products before they go out by a fda approved method? it is used to test to make sure that there is enough active ingredient to do some good but not enough to kill u. this trend here is far simpler than that.
besides solandri, logic on these forums goes over like logic in the US congress[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Sheesh, you people are implacable. I started this topic because whenever I did theoretical calculations for damage showing certain builds (mainly -interval) did a lot more damage than others, some people would say, "But that's just theory. Real gameplay introduces lots of other variables which make the theory inapplicable." Then this event happens and we have a chance to see relative damage contribution in real gameplay. And now the primary complaint is that it's too real and introduces too many variables? You can't have it both ways.Neodaystar - Sanctuary wrote: »You're study on this matter is a waste of time because there are too many variables that you are not considering. "-interval does too much damage" is not a theory, it's a fact. You just don't want to accept this fact that a class with 5 aps using fists/claws with interval gear can deal a constant damage of 50-60k per second non crits.
I know -interval gives huge multipliers for damage. I've done the theoretical calculations. I noticed it way back in early 2009, half a year before packs were introduced. It's what led me to make my veno go heavy - I was curious if the melee damage could be increased to match or surpass spell damage. I've validated the theory on my character with solo kill timings in CoA using a variety of different attack methods.
But every time the topic comes up and I weigh in with the "based on theory, it's way overpowered" crowd, there's a vocal group of naysayers (usually interval fist users) claiming that real gameplay doesn't match the theory. That other classes get lots of other nice bonuses or skills which offset the increased DPS from -interval, and everything is ok and balanced.
Well, this event gives us a way to put their claims to the test.
Which is why the topic is titled "relative max damage" and not "average damage". If one build or attack method is much better than another, it will rise to the top of the rankings for that class.- Some people uses unique builds such as archers, clerics, and venos using a HA build.
- The attack methods they use - as you've seen with venos using nix, hercs, and magic/melee weapons.
The event looks at the top slice of the high end tail of the distribution curve for each class. Given the severe leveling curve post-100, it's fair to say each class has dozens of representatives at or near 100 with similar-class gear (TB classes excepted of course).- Level of players, and their gear type.
Already said as much in my first post. Also pointed out in my first post that if a class has fewer representatives (wizards maybe), the sampled tail of their distribution curve may be bigger than another class', thus skewing their top-7 average down. I had thought the final rankings told you how many people of each class participated, so I could account for this. But apparently it doesn't.On the Sanctuary server, there are actually less than 20 sins and psy participating in the event at certain times, and over halve of then are under level 80. Using this event for your study of class damage is not fair for the new classes. In addition, most don't even have their level 11 skills yet.
Those suffering more from lag within a class will tend to score lower, and thus automatically be removed from the data set. With the number of players participating in this event (300+ the few times I've done it), I think it's a safe assumption that each class will have at least a few if not dozens of high-level well-geared representatives not suffering from oppressive lag.- Lag: even an end game player with gears that may seem to give them a huge damage advantage might not do well in this competition because of lag.
No, logic says that the more high level players are killing the boss, the less time everyone has killing it, including the high level players. The only thing quicker kill times do is give advantage to those who get there first.- Time spent killing the final Nien Beast: The more time you spend killing the final boss, the more contribution points you get. For a fist/claw bm or archer with 5 aps, even 30 secs can mean a great deal of points. It's logic that the more high level players killing the boss, the less time another has killing it, and will waste time teleporting to the next unkilled nien beast.
Given that the event happens in areas where mounts are usable, it's difficult to argue that the first arrivers are biased towards or against any class.
Given that the nienbeasts take several minutes to kill while first arrivers have maybe 15-30 sec of extra damage, it's difficult to argue that their advantage reaches a magnitude approaching the disparity we're seeing in contribution scores.
Which is why I (1) averaged the scores for the top 7, (2) fully intend to collect more data.- The data you are basing your study on consists of the top 20 scores of each class. It is not enough for anyone to reach a solid conclusion as to which class does the most damage. Not everyone (best of each class in terms of equipments they have) participates in this event. Some do it on a normal basis and have more experience in scoring more points.
Look, bottom line is that there are some clear trends emerging from the data. If this were so useless as some are claiming, there would be no trends. It would be indistinguishable from random. The fact that there are trends means the data is conveying useful information.0 -
The reaction you're getting is similar to the reaction I got when I once pointed out that Perfect World subscribes to the "holy trinity" of modern RPG design, namely that there are really only 3 roles: Tank, Healer, and DPS. Individual characters may blur the lines between these roles depending upon the situation, but the basic gameplay mechanic is that somebody is Tanking, enough are Healing, and the rest are DDing.Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Sheesh, you people are implacable. I started this topic because whenever I did theoretical calculations for damage showing certain builds (mainly -interval) did a lot more damage than others, some people would say, "But that's just theory. Real gameplay introduces lots of other variables which make the theory inapplicable." Then this event happens and we have a chance to see relative damage contribution in real gameplay. And now the primary complaint is that it's too real and introduces too many variables? You can't have it both ways.
Now, along comes a 5 APS BM and you've now got a character that not only is able to perform all 3 roles at once, but is also able to DD boatloads and trolley-cars full better than the classes that are supposed to specialize in DPS.
Other than offering them our buffs, the rest of us who don't have 5 APS Demon Spark just aren't competing in their league anymore.
Personally, I'm fine with this, because I figure Claw users had to put up with, "ha ha claws are for noobs, you fail..." for so long, but you can't really expect the majority of the player base to just accept that they are now being so thoroughly out-classed without resorting to at least some messenger-killing and denial.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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