Ideas for improving the economy in this game
Asheera - Raging Tide
Posts: 830 Arc User
Ok well thinking a bit and based on my previous MMO where the economy wasn't even close to screwed as in this, I came up with the following points:
1) Remove ANY way to convert gold into coins DIRECTLY. Gold > Coin conversion should only be between players. Maybe remove the gold fee when you sell gold since it seems a bit harsh, but keep the coin one.
This includes removing chest of coins and 10 million bank note
Why is it bad, hmm? Because people can inject more coins into the economy and mess up the market simply by charging more money on the game. This is ****, someone could charge 200k dollars (exaggerated but possible and I hope you get the point) and then open tons of chest of coins and packs and inflate the market so much others will have no chance of buying anything again.
I exaggerated of course, but it only proves why it's an idiotic idea to keep those.
2) Remove any way to get stuff you farm or grind for, from the boutique. This includes mostly packs. It's extremely stupid for them to sell stuff you actually farm and what this game was supposed to be played for, from cash shop.
You can still sell your gold to other players and buy the drops after, but at least this way the instances will still be worthwhile to farm for those that need drops or money, instead of their prices deflating so much, while the overall market actually inflates because of (1)
3) Remove Catshops. Seriously I am not kidding. For one they actually inflate the market more than without. Because people would be forced to sell on AH much more items (except on world chat) and AH has a fee for this reason, to help deflate the economy. And I'm not talking about the fee when you put an item for sale only, but the one where you don't get the whole money you sold the item for back, you get a bit less.
Also without Catshops everyone would have the same chance at merchanting (some ppl can't let computer on for catshops atm), and because of this, merchanting will drop A LOT except a few people who are smart enough (if everyone merchants, there would be no more profit at all from it)
This also leads to a better market because those merchants won't control it anymore and be the only ones able to afford some things. It will still be possible to merchant a bit by checking AH regularly, but not to such high effects as now.
Of course along with this suggestion they will have to improve AH searching. It's actually great except it works in chinese, fix it please and trust me it will be sooo much easier to buy and sell the items you need. Even easier than with catshops atm, when you have to check all Arch catshops for items you're interested in.
Also add more categories and more items able to be sold on AH, practically make everything that can be traded able to be sold there.
4) Contrary to what some think, increasing drops in instances would actually not affect the economy unless it's an absurd number, because if you're a farmer you ALSO get more stuff dropped per run. They are worth less, yes, but you get more to sell.
It will just be more difficult to find buyers, and maybe taking more time, but you'll still manage to get relatively same income.
But of course if you remove packs and Nirvana crystal chests I also suggest improve Nirvana drops by a lot because it's a bit ridiculous, but that's for another subject.
I hope someone who can redirect to GMs reads and considers these ideas, I am not talking with zero experience here, if you want to know, I played another f2p with a far better economy than in here, and I was 2nd richest on server. If you don't believe me, oh well too bad I just hope you will realize one day what I said in here is true.
Peace and have a nice day.
1) Remove ANY way to convert gold into coins DIRECTLY. Gold > Coin conversion should only be between players. Maybe remove the gold fee when you sell gold since it seems a bit harsh, but keep the coin one.
This includes removing chest of coins and 10 million bank note
Why is it bad, hmm? Because people can inject more coins into the economy and mess up the market simply by charging more money on the game. This is ****, someone could charge 200k dollars (exaggerated but possible and I hope you get the point) and then open tons of chest of coins and packs and inflate the market so much others will have no chance of buying anything again.
I exaggerated of course, but it only proves why it's an idiotic idea to keep those.
2) Remove any way to get stuff you farm or grind for, from the boutique. This includes mostly packs. It's extremely stupid for them to sell stuff you actually farm and what this game was supposed to be played for, from cash shop.
You can still sell your gold to other players and buy the drops after, but at least this way the instances will still be worthwhile to farm for those that need drops or money, instead of their prices deflating so much, while the overall market actually inflates because of (1)
3) Remove Catshops. Seriously I am not kidding. For one they actually inflate the market more than without. Because people would be forced to sell on AH much more items (except on world chat) and AH has a fee for this reason, to help deflate the economy. And I'm not talking about the fee when you put an item for sale only, but the one where you don't get the whole money you sold the item for back, you get a bit less.
Also without Catshops everyone would have the same chance at merchanting (some ppl can't let computer on for catshops atm), and because of this, merchanting will drop A LOT except a few people who are smart enough (if everyone merchants, there would be no more profit at all from it)
This also leads to a better market because those merchants won't control it anymore and be the only ones able to afford some things. It will still be possible to merchant a bit by checking AH regularly, but not to such high effects as now.
Of course along with this suggestion they will have to improve AH searching. It's actually great except it works in chinese, fix it please and trust me it will be sooo much easier to buy and sell the items you need. Even easier than with catshops atm, when you have to check all Arch catshops for items you're interested in.
Also add more categories and more items able to be sold on AH, practically make everything that can be traded able to be sold there.
4) Contrary to what some think, increasing drops in instances would actually not affect the economy unless it's an absurd number, because if you're a farmer you ALSO get more stuff dropped per run. They are worth less, yes, but you get more to sell.
It will just be more difficult to find buyers, and maybe taking more time, but you'll still manage to get relatively same income.
But of course if you remove packs and Nirvana crystal chests I also suggest improve Nirvana drops by a lot because it's a bit ridiculous, but that's for another subject.
I hope someone who can redirect to GMs reads and considers these ideas, I am not talking with zero experience here, if you want to know, I played another f2p with a far better economy than in here, and I was 2nd richest on server. If you don't believe me, oh well too bad I just hope you will realize one day what I said in here is true.
Peace and have a nice day.
First 103 on Raging Tide 30 Oct 2010
Quit.
Quit.
Post edited by Asheera - Raging Tide on
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expecting Rage/QQers in 3,2,1....[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]<3 by Silvy
Reborn ditzy archer with a serious oreo addiction =3
'...cuz my IQ is just above what is required to function as a human' - tsumaru20 -
*Sigh*
It seems every few weeks someone believes they have the answers to solving the games economy. The only problem is from PWI's prospective there is no problem . You are suggesting removing stuff like packs ? The following is a fact: They will never remove packs from the game . PWI was setup from the beginning to be able to buy power with cash. The business model they have setup depends on it. Also you do know that chest of coins requires a perfect hammer right ?? why would anyone charge tons of money to open chest of coins? sry but this does not make sense as the amount of the hammer is worth more than the box. AH fixing . sure.. they said they were gonna do that a long time ago... right after tideborn get all their skills, clerics get working buffs etc. Cash shop players will always have an advantage in this game. I dont wanna QQ but if you hoping for an equal playing field here where hard work & grinding > cash shop player its not gonna happen.0 -
Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »1) Remove ANY way to convert gold into coins DIRECTLY.
That's one of the things that makes PW unique. You can buy cash shop items without spending an actual dollar. Without having to pay the infaltionary prices of some middle-man who wants to sell it to you for more. Or it gives the cash shopper unique advantages.... healing pots and equipment are sold in other games and are only available to those that actually spend money.2) Remove any way to get stuff you farm or grind for, from the boutique. This includes mostly packs.
Completely agree there. Including it in packs removes the desire or need to actually farm it. But then you'll have the people complaining they don't actually want to work in a game to get something, to actually work hard for it. *shrug*3) Remove Catshops. Seriously I am not kidding. For one they actually inflate the market more than without.
Actually, it also drives prices down considerably. You have more people to choose from buying, and people selling have to remain competitive to sell something. You've got it backwards here. AH prices are often much higher than you would find in a catshop.Also without Catshops everyone would have the same chance at merchanting (some ppl can't let computer on for catshops atm), and because of this, merchanting will drop A LOT except a few people who are smart enough (if everyone merchants, there would be no more profit at all from it)
Would mean less available goods on the market, people won't want to pay AH fees and would end up spamming world chat a lot more as a result, I'm sure.Also add more categories and more items able to be sold on AH, practically make everything that can be traded able to be sold there.
With the exception of very few items, almost everything IS listable.4) Contrary to what some think, increasing drops in instances would actually not affect the economy unless it's an absurd number, because if you're a farmer you ALSO get more stuff dropped per run. They are worth less, yes, but you get more to sell.
Ever hear of a term called Market Saturation? Like tokens now.... they haven't increased in price since packs were taken out. Too many people with tokens trying to sell them has driven the prices way down, for the first time since packs first released, prices haven't increased, and actually prices now are cheaper than the last couple days packs were still in the boutique.It will just be more difficult to find buyers, and maybe taking more time, but you'll still manage to get relatively same income.
More people don't want to spend more time finding buyers. They want it done quickly and easily and focus on killing mobs, or haven't you paid attention to the last thread?But of course if you remove packs and Nirvana crystal chests I also suggest improve Nirvana drops by a lot because it's a bit ridiculous, but that's for another subject.
Yes, make end-game gear much easier to farm. You're kidding, right?I hope someone who can redirect to GMs reads and considers these ideas, I am not talking with zero experience here, if you want to know, I played another f2p with a far better economy than in here, and I was 2nd richest on server. If you don't believe me, oh well too bad I just hope you will realize one day what I said in here is true.
Peace and have a nice day.
So you were 2nd richest on another MMO. If that game was better, why are you still here? No, I'm not being sarcastic, just curious.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »Actually, it also drives prices down considerably. You have more people to choose from buying, and people selling have to remain competitive to sell something. You've got it backwards here. AH prices are often much higher than you would find in a catshop.
+1. A few days after packs came back this past time, ultimate substances were an outrageous 50k+ at the forges. Two days and I crashed the market, no one selling for more than 40k; slowly they went down to 35k or so and stabilized with token prices. The whole time, I never stopped making profit selling smaller numbers of subs in AH for 50-60k.0 -
And this will improve Perfect World Internationals Economy how?
Will these ideas make more people charge zhen? If not im pretty sure the suggestion goes straight into the ignore box.
Before 10 mil notes and Chest of coins, before lucky packs and new sales every week when gold where around 100-150k each it was indeed very player friendly - but PWI did not make a lot of money. Just go look at the companys financial history <.<
Also lol at making AH explode O_O Already takes like 3 hours scrolling to get from last to first page at TT mats and such.0 -
Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »That's one of the things that makes PW unique. You can buy cash shop items without spending an actual dollar. Without having to pay the infaltionary prices of some middle-man who wants to sell it to you for more. Or it gives the cash shopper unique advantages.... healing pots and equipment are sold in other games and are only available to those that actually spend money.
Nono you misunderstood me. Of course trading gold for coins to other players and vice versa should be possible. But this is, trade in the end. Not conversion. What I said was converting gold into coins, it's like "buying" coins in the boutique.
Well Chest of Coins and 10 million notes do this in one way or another. Perfect Hammer can just be read "gives 1 million coins" with all the chests in circulation now.
So you see, it is a direct conversion of gold > coins. Which is terrible.
Actually, it also drives prices down considerably. You have more people to choose from buying, and people selling have to remain competitive to sell something. You've got it backwards here. AH prices are often much higher than you would find in a catshop.
I don't think you realize that once everything is on AH (but not as laggy as now as someone else said of course) there will be a much higher competition than now, because AH is global. It's like, instead of checking all Arch catshops in 10 mins, you check ALL goods sold by other players in a few mins. Buyers will get the optimum price, and the fastest way possible, they are happy. Sellers will have the most competition possible on prices, and this will annoy only those that want to place a catshop "strategically" so that some "desperate" people will buy overpriced instead of a cheaper sale some place else.
And on top of it, no catshops is same as everyone can set up shop when they go offline so nobody is advantaged/disadvantaged anymore.
Would mean less available goods on the market, people won't want to pay AH fees and would end up spamming world chat a lot more as a result, I'm sure.
Nah the fees aren't that bad when you want to sell something. In fact it's negligible, I mean, when you sell something for 10 mil, do you really mind if you get 9+ something mil? I mean seriously, it is "lost" money, but so is if it could have sold for 11 mil. And you never know, it could have sold for 11.
What I do get is, less people will try to actually resell unless something is outrageous cheap. Because you won't get much profit for small gaps of differences in prices, because of the fee. This is a bonus and against merchanting and reselling so I'm all for it (spamming world chat isn't an option either, if you plan on resell you obviously care for every money you got, and teles cost)
With the exception of very few items, almost everything IS listable.
Most is but some important ones aren't. Like many boutique items, Do All Cards, etc
Ever hear of a term called Market Saturation? Like tokens now.... they haven't increased in price since packs were taken out. Too many people with tokens trying to sell them has driven the prices way down, for the first time since packs first released, prices haven't increased, and actually prices now are cheaper than the last couple days packs were still in the boutique.
More people don't want to spend more time finding buyers. They want it done quickly and easily and focus on killing mobs, or haven't you paid attention to the last thread?
Although on RT they did rise you are right. Sorry I admit didn't think too much about this drop rate issue but also notice I did not plan or say in my first post you need to increase the drops for a better economy. Just that increasing won't mess up the market, which isn't completely true as you pointed it out, depends how much increase of course.
Yes, make end-game gear much easier to farm. You're kidding, right?
This is for a different thread, plus I did not do Nirvana yet at all, so I admit in advance I may be wrong.
But from what I heard you get 4-5 crystals per run, so not even 1 for each member. With a 200+ crystal requirement for one single piece. You'll need like 300 runs... THREE HUNDRED RUNS, for one single piece of gear. Plus the recast of stats until you get nice ones, but I didn't count that.
I know it has to be hard to get end game gear, but this is stupid and ridiculous, there are some common sense limits. But oh well if you look at Warsoul requirements this is nothing >.>
About why I did quit, I took a break and when I came back it went downhill, they started selling something like "packs" in here with uber bonuses and on top of it disabled the gold >< coin trade which is utter bs.
Also to improve AH they should also add sorting by price when you get a list. When there will be more items this will be a must.First 103 on Raging Tide 30 Oct 2010
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ha...ha....ha....b:embarrass yea right... improve economy? HA!0
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dont think its that easy ;x pwi would need to remove the packs first to see a change... but that will never happen we all know that, they're a good source of "saving" money instead of buying for example pots at 400% the price they used to be ... b:surrenderWTB> -12% channeling BELT or RING pm me with link or mail me ingame HT server, ty.0
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damn my post got truncated if you read it before re read the last parts please...First 103 on Raging Tide 30 Oct 2010
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Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »Reply in red.
About why I did quit, I took a break and when I came back it went downhill, they started selling something like "packs" in here with uber bonuses and on top of it disabled the gold >< coin trade which is utter bs.
Also to improve AH they should also add sorting by price when you get a list. When there will be more items this will be a must.
2)Sellers already face a lot of competition even with catshops. In the AH, sellers won't lower their price if they find the same thing for a cheaper price. Unless they need the money urgently, they can keep putting their items back at the same price, until somebody buys it. Also, there are a lot of things that can not be sold in the AH.
3)When you sell something for 100 mil, do you care if you lose 5 mil? Yes, you do.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thank you Forsakenx for the picture. b:thanks0 -
Well, I certainly can't speak for other players, but I intended to go the long slow route with all my characters. I recognize a great many players want to advance as quickly as possible so they have different motives in what they want.
That is beside the point.
Can someone please explain how the economy is broken?
I mean in the real world isn't the economy the sum of the existence and health of trade?
Whether Perfect World's economy is good/bad/--insert adjective here--/whatever is not my question.
Because despite all the complaints about the economy being broken or inflated or anything, trade happens.
If trade happens, then the economy is functioning.
If the economy is functioning, then the economy can not be broken.
And I define 'Broken' as non-functioning.
Further, different people have different ideas about what is wrong with the 'economy' based on how it affects them. Their level(s), their class, their server, their PvP or PvE, their playstyle, any of them will have a different view on what they would like.
So before you get started with asking for ideas you need definitions and context. At a bare minimum:- A) Please define the specific economy and structure you are talking about.
- The problem with said structure.
- C) Who it affects, and in what way.
Then when you actually get to your idea, model it with cash flow examples, more than one, showing where money and things come from and where they go.
This can only help. No business, game or otherwise, will be successful if they just run ideas. So crunch those numbers, follow the money trails, and look for those variables. The more work you do the better you can convince me of anything, much less the developers. And the more the developers have to work with, because they will be the ones who are going to have to really work to see if the idea is even possible to implement.
Frankly I think that the idea that there is much of any economy in a game like this is specious. Mobs get their coin and drops from nowhere, the merchants never run out of their goods. What does it matter if a player pours tons of cash into the game, it is just an individual's acceleration of a pre-existing situation that can never and will never be changed.
So good luck with your ideas, but please, please, please, tell me how the economy is broken.
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PS In a truly perfect world their would be no money, everyone would have everything they want or need, and we would all be perfect too, with out avarice or pride to wish to out do our neighbors, or of sincere generosity where we share all we have..
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PPS - all those complaints about how changes will ruin the game for people, and that it will spell doom for PWI, what about all the future new players who will never know things as being otherwise . . .♪ "Once I thought the World was made for me"
♫ "Once I thought experience was Free"
♪ "Never knew you had to pay the Price"
♫ "Then I found you sometimes pay it Twice!"
--The Fraggles of Fraggle Rock0 -
*Sigh*
It seems every few weeks someone believes they have the answers to solving the games economy. The only problem is from PWI's prospective there is no problem . You are suggesting removing stuff like packs ? The following is a fact: They will never remove packs from the game . PWI was setup from the beginning to be able to buy power with cash. The business model they have setup depends on it. Also you do know that chest of coins requires a perfect hammer right ?? why would anyone charge tons of money to open chest of coins? sry but this does not make sense as the amount of the hammer is worth more than the box. AH fixing . sure.. they said they were gonna do that a long time ago... right after tideborn get all their skills, clerics get working buffs etc. Cash shop players will always have an advantage in this game. I dont wanna QQ but if you hoping for an equal playing field here where hard work & grinding > cash shop player its not gonna happen.
QFT. The economy won't change, sadly. My suggestion: find another game.0 -
personally I think your ideas are good, mainly removing big bank note from the trade for best luck. Though I will say one thing good about 1m golden chests. they do help keep the gold prices at a decent rate. if gold doesn't sell for much, fewer people are going to charge rl money to sell in game. Which was the point of the chests. Basically those chests just help insure that gold will sell for 150-200k which I don't think is a bad deal.
But also I hope your not looking forward to any of this being done. it's just not gunna happen.0 -
One thing I would love to see is a revamped auction house. Being able to search for an item by name would be nice. At least they could divide the molds up into groups; I don't want to sift through every flavor of bounty hunter drop looking for a level 22 dagger mold for my sin alt.0
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Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »One thing I would love to see is a revamped auction house. Being able to search for an item by name would be nice. At least they could divide the molds up into groups; I don't want to sift through every flavor of bounty hunter drop looking for a level 22 dagger mold for my sin alt.
Yeah i find it weird that they can divide up every individual peice of fashion, or regular weapons & armor & accesories, or every mined/regular drop materials. But then we get to instance drops & gear & its all clustered together into generic categories spanning 30+ pages.0 -
orangeladey wrote: »Can someone please explain how the economy is broken?
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PS In a truly perfect world their would be no money, everyone would have everything they want or need, and we would all be perfect too, with out avarice or pride to wish to out do our neighbors, or of sincere generosity where we share all we have..
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PPS - all those complaints about how changes will ruin the game for people, and that it will spell doom for PWI, what about all the future new players who will never know things as being otherwise . . .
1. Inflation, look it up
2. SOUNDS LIKE COMMIES
3. This is why in lots of games it's always good to look at what a majority of the older players have to say about the current state of the game; there's always the WE HAD TO GRIND UPHILL BOTH WAYS AND WE LIKED IT types but then there are also the players who are legitimately concerned about the changes. Learn something from your in-game elders, as ridiculous as that sounds.Bladestorm lets you spin around like a carnival ride and do damage. Not using it is almost like having a move called Confetti Rocket Power Leap and saving it for "emergencies"
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Nakhimov the Kingslayer of Kil'Jaeden's <Criminal Scum>
wowprogress.com/guild/us/kil-jaeden/Criminal+Scum0 -
Nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »1. Inflation, look it up
Actually I'm trying to avoid a /FlameOn! here; this is the only MMO I've ever played. However, I've played on two servers, one of which for over a year, and I'm a good friend with a guy who's played WoW and MUDs for 10+ years. As time goes on, coin is massively pumped into the economy (this irrespective of chest of coins/ 10m big note).
Inflation is actually a foregone conclusion for a successful MMO; if your server doesn't have it over the long run, one of two things have happened: 1) either the game died, and the economy is actually "broken," or 2) the GMs/devs for your game are *actual ******n geniuses* and have solved the "contributing infinite money to a system while still keeping [money] relevant to said system" problem.
Given that dichotomy, mediocrity isn't really something to complain about. /Flameon0 -
It's not going to happen. The folks up in the big coorperate offices want cash in their pockets. They're going to suck us all dry. Any attempt to disobey that, being a riot or a rally to stop spending cash in the Boutique would end in "All your servers are belong to us".
We're a branch-off people. We don't matter as much as the China servers. If we do anything about it, they'll pull the plug. We'd all be toast. It's not (f word coming--) fair...but that's life.
And......Someone is always going to use the Cash Shop as a crutch.
Buying a mount, or a pair of wings from the boutique to get around is not using it as a crutch. Buying a (a being ONE = 1) fashion to hide the "ugly armor" is not crutching. (You know, from level 30-59...that stuff.) Purchasing some dragon orbs for some refining help is not crutching.
Spending $400 a month on Hyper Stones, Oracles, and other BS when you're only level 30...is definately crutching.
Someone is always going to NOT want to work hard to get their levels. Someone is always NOT going to play "fair" with us who don't pay anything. Someone is always going to try and do things the easy way, and cut corners, and **** us all in the long run.
These are the people who don't make the game worth playing anymore. These are the people who deserve to be beaten with sticks, or something to that nature. These are the folks who are choaking the economy.
@ Nakhimov-- Thank you. ;30 -
Nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »1. Inflation, look it upInflation ~ /in'fleſ(ə)n/ n. 1 a the act or condition of inflating or being inflated. b an instance of this. 2 Econ. a a general incease in prices and fall in the purchasing value of money. b an increase in available currency regarded as causing this. (The Oxford Encylcopedic English Dictionary, Third Edition, Oxford University Press, 1996)
But the key thing is 2a. The money in PW IS NOT WORTH LESS. Granted there are several in-game exceptions, but it is NOT true for everything, which is the actual case with inflation. As for 2b. that is not ignoring the decrease in value, but being descriptive of the superfluous cash.
The term also must be used in conjunction with the retail markets. Any market analysis of the economic system must not take into account Cat Shop pricing, as the game is not meant to control those. Those values can only be set and controlled by players who vote with their pocket books.
The increase in gold in the game is NOT INFLATION. It is more closely a representation of an increase in the Gross Domestic Product.
I am not entirely certain, but I think the situation in game more closely represents a RECESSION. I know a recession is where prices increase, but money does not. But the similiarity is in how people react. In a recession, people tend to buy less, because the money does not go as far. As far as game changes go, prices are remaining relatively the same, but the so-called 'salary' from grinding or whatever method you use to make coin is going down, so it has a similar effect. I'm not saying it is the same, but the trends are similar.
And Inflation is not necessarily a bad thing either. The US economy, before it tanked had a regulated inflation for several decades. It is why there was Cost of Living adjustments to salaries, that weren't technically raises. Properly controlled and regulated inflation can be good, it's control that is difficult.Nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »2. SOUNDS LIKE COMMIES
Perhaps more like Marxism, the basis of communism. Marx was trying to envision an ideal world without oppression. Marxism is also a proponent that everyone's work is worth equal value, and in many respects based on equality without regard to status. The difference is that Communism tries to force this state with government control, which is where the problems really come in. My statement is also like many religions, who would have all beings treated equally and kindly after all most view the positive afterlife as a perfect thing, and you should treat all others kindly to be worthy of going there. The 'Do unto others' guideline.
But you still missed the point. It isn't about the state of the society. But if you had a 'Perfect World' what would you need money for? You could have everything you wanted/needed, and no one could be jealous because they had everything as well. And of course if the world is perfect, so are the people, so no one would be jealous or greedy or vain, etc.
On this subject I will say no more, and encourage others to not reply to it. I am not promoting Communism, Marxism or any religion.
I am a proponent of not using blanket stereotypes, especially stereotypes that do not apply in all the particulars to the subject at hand.Nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »3. This is why in lots of games it's always good to look at what a majority of the older players have to say about the current state of the game; there's always the WE HAD TO GRIND UPHILL BOTH WAYS AND WE LIKED IT types but then there are also the players who are legitimately concerned about the changes. Learn something from your in-game elders, as ridiculous as that sounds.
I suppose you took a look at my character level and decided I'm new? And you guessed I haven't read the forums?
How insulting. Give me some credit rather than assuming things. Of course I am presuming you are a literate, considerate human being. One who will do research, pay attention to the news, and either are studying at a high school or have graduated into the work force or continued education.
Though your Second comment shed doubt on my presumptions about you. I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt.
I've played this game for years. At least three or four now. That may not make me an 'elder' but I ain't a rube either.
True I did leave for a year, but that was due to real life issues, so the changes were really clear to me when I returned to the game.
Let me tell you what was really different about the game, at least for my young levels.- The genies
- The Tideborn addition
- I inherited the faction I was in.
- Gold Auction prices were about double (Due to Tiger Packs)
And that's about it. Perhaps there are more higher level players, fewer new players, more herbs and mats are not harvested as often, but those are subjective measures.
Money still works the same as always, people charge exorbitant fees in their Cat Shops or at the Auction. But it is still business as usual between players.
So yes I've read the forum.
And I really wish to say that "your in-game elders" are a pack of idiots. Not all of them are. But many forum posts are hardly written well. Not that I'm all that good at writing, but I am highly literate, and many posts are hardly coherent. That while I mostly understand their message, their points are vague or reactionary, and in many occasions, rude, fallacious and inflammatory.
And in reading several thousands of posts, all people say boils down to "Broken" or "Inflation", but not specifying what aspects they are looking at in the financial situation. Which part is broken, by how much? I'm not an economist, but I listen to business news, there are measurements for other measurements in the financial world that do not directly reflect cash flow.
And all the forums here say is "Broken".
Like that tells me anything.
In the forums I do not see people doing real math, but instead these vague cause and effect chains, without sources or references.
I noted the part about identifying variables in my 'please do' list. I actually feel greater confidence in someone who says, this is what I think, here's the numbers, this is what I'm not sure about. Why? Because it show that the person looked at more than just what he want's us to see.
Perhaps the reason you mock my request for clarification is the same thing prolific on the forums. You don't want to do the work. You presumed I hadn't read the forums, and true I've not read them all, but you did not even wish to go to the effort to point me in the direction of threads that ARE specific. You are not alone in this, I don't imagine many people want to do the work to really define how the games financial system functions and how parts of it are 'broken'.
That's probably part of the reason the developers don't take up anybody's ideas, because they DO have that model, and they can tell why many suggestions just aren't feasible. Especially since many suggestions will only strongly benefit the narrow category of class/play style/server style into which that character falls.
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PS. You got one thing right. I'm the type to grind 'up hill both ways'. And literally have done the up hill both ways in the snow. Too bad it was only 1/2" deep on the way home ^_^;
The trick is to live on the hill.
-_-; And nobody comment on this please, it is soooo off topic. -_-;♪ "Once I thought the World was made for me"
♫ "Once I thought experience was Free"
♪ "Never knew you had to pay the Price"
♫ "Then I found you sometimes pay it Twice!"
--The Fraggles of Fraggle Rock0 -
I actually agree with some of the points the OP has said as another rpg I play that has no AH and gold is the currency of the game.There are no personal consignment shops either most sell in all major towns WTS,WTB, WTT or elite areas like town of arrivals.Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.0
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orangeladey wrote: »Can someone please explain how the economy is broken?
IMHO it's not economy itself that's broken. I would rather say that CS vs Gameplay is broken. Usually in such kind of games you start as lvl1 weakling and with progress you gain some power and you become richer with an option to speed things up with real cash injection. Here you simply get poorer and poorer with progress and it comes to the point where even if you grind like a crazy you don't get much of it.
I agree that for example mounts are not really expensive since like 10m for kinda top one is not much. Problem is visible while you want consumables as charms and mostly ... dragon orbs, rep tags, legendary pets etc. Here their special CS design comes into play where things that gives you real advantage are incredibly expensive. That's what's broken ... by design.
Of cours many QQ's about economy are just packs driven and I partially agree with them cause whatever good packs brought you can't say theyre not made majority of players mad and quit. I was ok before packs and tried to go on with them as well but ... game lost the point for me even if I was doing pretty well.
Cheers0 -
Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »Ok well thinking a bit and based on my previous MMO where the economy wasn't even close to screwed as in this, I came up with the following points:
1) Remove ANY way to convert gold into coins DIRECTLY. Gold > Coin conversion should only be between players. Maybe remove the gold fee when you sell gold since it seems a bit harsh, but keep the coin one.
This includes removing chest of coins and 10 million bank note
Why is it bad, hmm? Because people can inject more coins into the economy and mess up the market simply by charging more money on the game. This is ****, someone could charge 200k dollars (exaggerated but possible and I hope you get the point) and then open tons of chest of coins and packs and inflate the market so much others will have no chance of buying anything again.
I exaggerated of course, but it only proves why it's an idiotic idea to keep those.
No one even opens chest of coins anyways, and they will never remove getting 10mil bank notes with best lucks.
2) Remove any way to get stuff you farm or grind for, from the boutique. This includes mostly packs. It's extremely stupid for them to sell stuff you actually farm and what this game was supposed to be played for, from cash shop.
You can still sell your gold to other players and buy the drops after, but at least this way the instances will still be worthwhile to farm for those that need drops or money, instead of their prices deflating so much, while the overall market actually inflates because of (1)
Again, will never happen. Without the packs then gold would lose it's value = cash shoppers aren't as happy.
3) Remove Catshops. Seriously I am not kidding. For one they actually inflate the market more than without. Because people would be forced to sell on AH much more items (except on world chat) and AH has a fee for this reason, to help deflate the economy. And I'm not talking about the fee when you put an item for sale only, but the one where you don't get the whole money you sold the item for back, you get a bit less.
Also without Catshops everyone would have the same chance at merchanting (some ppl can't let computer on for catshops atm), and because of this, merchanting will drop A LOT except a few people who are smart enough (if everyone merchants, there would be no more profit at all from it)
This also leads to a better market because those merchants won't control it anymore and be the only ones able to afford some things. It will still be possible to merchant a bit by checking AH regularly, but not to such high effects as now.
Of course along with this suggestion they will have to improve AH searching. It's actually great except it works in chinese, fix it please and trust me it will be sooo much easier to buy and sell the items you need. Even easier than with catshops atm, when you have to check all Arch catshops for items you're interested in.
Also add more categories and more items able to be sold on AH, practically make everything that can be traded able to be sold there.
Do you like, have something against people that make coins merchanting? And "This also leads to a better market because those merchants won't control it anymore and be the only ones able to afford some things." So your suggesting that we make it so only cash shoppers can afford them? Cat shops are not a problem.
4) Contrary to what some think, increasing drops in instances would actually not affect the economy unless it's an absurd number, because if you're a farmer you ALSO get more stuff dropped per run. They are worth less, yes, but you get more to sell.
It will just be more difficult to find buyers, and maybe taking more time, but you'll still manage to get relatively same income.
Increase supply while lowering demand? Sounds like a terrible idea for people who make money farming IMO
But of course if you remove packs and Nirvana crystal chests I also suggest improve Nirvana drops by a lot because it's a bit ridiculous, but that's for another subject.
I hope someone who can redirect to GMs reads and considers these ideas, I am not talking with zero experience here, if you want to know, I played another f2p with a far better economy than in here, and I was 2nd richest on server. If you don't believe me, oh well too bad I just hope you will realize one day what I said in here is true.
Peace and have a nice day.
/10 chars b:bye[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."0 -
Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »Reply in red.
About why I did quit, I took a break and when I came back it went downhill, they started selling something like "packs" in here with uber bonuses and on top of it disabled the gold >< coin trade which is utter bs.
Also to improve AH they should also add sorting by price when you get a list. When there will be more items this will be a must.
I click quote, this is all I get. I'm not responding to your red text because if you're too lazy to format a post correctly to actually receive a response then I won't bother responding.
*shrug*I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »3. This is why in lots of games it's always good to look at what a majority of the older players have to say about the current state of the game; there's always the WE HAD TO GRIND UPHILL BOTH WAYS AND WE LIKED IT types but then there are also the players who are legitimately concerned about the changes. Learn something from your in-game elders, as ridiculous as that sounds.
^ Is this a semi-serious post from Nak? o.o b:chuckleb:victory
<-- laughing at anyone who opens those Chest of coins...I have soooooo many of those damn things b:angry[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
RoidAbuse is awesome, only he would sell his sperm for gear!!
"Toughest monster? ..... RedsRose b:surrender" - Kantorek
Where is my 1 v 1 Kan? b:mischievous0 -
@Asheera Unfortunately when someone posts something on these forums even as an attempt to help solve the problem all that will ensue is endless threads of people telling you why you are wrong with no attempt to try to help themselves.
Take Michael_Dark's siggy as an example[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »No one even opens chest of coins anyways, and they will never remove getting 10mil bank notes with best lucks.Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »Again, will never happen. Without the packs then gold would lose it's value = cash shoppers aren't as happy.
Think of it like this. There's people who desperately want end-game gear in 1 week. They do not want to farm, they want an easy way out. They will charge a lot more gold, since the supply of mats or whatever would be the same, but gold would lose its value.
Lower gold simply makes boutique more accessible in contrast to the stuff that can't be bought with cash -- and of course, some stuff can't as long as packs do not exist.Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »Cat shops are not a problem.
Cat shops break the affordability. Some prices (and drops) in this game are so ridiculous that it's no wonder some people have to merchant to get it. In the other games, merchanting simply doesn't exist.
And here's the kick: the game is designed around an economy without a select few merchanting and fooling the others. This means, consequently, prices aren't as ridiculous, and drops not as ****, since otherwise no one could afford them.
Games are designed around playerbase. If players have no way to merchant, the game will not have absurd drops or prices. A lot of games have MUCH less complaints about economy regarding this. This is the first MMO that I've seen people complain and put the "QQ" about the economy on par with any other aspect, such as balance or cash shop.
Granted you can't avoid the latter two in a free to play MMO, but the former? This is the first one so **** I've ever seen.
Catshops do break the game, designed around having to use them for the select few. They should be removed and devs should learn from the other ones, if they care.
(I only hope they probably learned that and won't have such things in their newer games, but it's not like I care for PWE anymore... no faith in this company anymore b:surrender)Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »Increase supply while lowering demand? Sounds like a terrible idea for people who make money farming IMO
The very fact that you NEED tons of coins as a result of farming and selling means the GAME DESIGN IS BROKEN, I've outlined above why, but you obviously do not see the problem.
It's not just a single problem, it's the whole interconnections between this and merchanting and whatever else I've outlined above (catshops, etc), that drives the game design in such a horrible direction, making stuff, prices, drops, so insanely ****.0 -
No but they set a minimum standard for gold, because as soon as it gets below 200k people will open chests for profit.
Right now I think many people would be happy if gold was just a bit higher than 200kSo? In the end the lazy people will still charge gold, even more because it has lost its value so they need more to compensate, unless they buy Boutique goods with it (prices will lower).
Think of it like this. There's people who desperately want end-game gear in 1 week. They do not want to farm, they want an easy way out. They will charge a lot more gold, since the supply of mats or whatever would be the same, but gold would lose its value.
Lower gold simply makes boutique more accessible in contrast to the stuff that can't be bought with cash -- and of course, some stuff can't as long as packs do not exist.
I knew several people that didn't start cash shopping until packs came out, and now spend hundreds of dollars on the game. Remove the packs cash shoppers won't be as happy = less money for PWE = never gonna happen.Yes they are. A lot of games decided to not implement them for a very good reason.
Cat shops break the affordability. Some prices (and drops) in this game are so ridiculous that it's no wonder some people have to merchant to get it. In the other games, merchanting simply doesn't exist.
And here's the kick: the game is designed around an economy without a select few merchanting and fooling the others. This means, consequently, prices aren't as ridiculous, and drops not as ****, since otherwise no one could afford them.
Games are designed around playerbase. If players have no way to merchant, the game will not have absurd drops or prices. A lot of games have MUCH less complaints about economy regarding this. This is the first MMO that I've seen people complain and put the "QQ" about the economy on par with any other aspect, such as balance or cash shop.
Granted you can't avoid the latter two in a free to play MMO, but the former? This is the first one so **** I've ever seen.
Catshops do break the game, designed around having to use them for the select few. They should be removed and devs should learn from the other ones, if they care.
(I only hope they probably learned that and won't have such things in their newer games, but it's not like I care for PWE anymore... no faith in this company anymore )
If you remove cat shops from the game all your doing is making it easier to put even more of the coins in cash shoppers hands. Removing cat shops just means "hey, it's even harder to make coins now, so get out the visa!"You are not supposed to make money farming, you are supposed to make mats and your gear.
So remove cat shops, remove farming, then just how ARE people supposed to make coins? We will always need them, the only way it could be avoided if gold didn't cost as high as it did WHICH WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
The bottom line is, packs and high gold prices are HERE TO STAY, it's necessary to learn to adapt, even if it is worse because as has been evidenced over the past year, the devs have no plans to remove packs.
Gold is high and when people are able to charge money and get high refines and endgame gear, you have to do what it takes to keep up to the best of your ability, which in this game pretty much consists of farming and merchanting.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."0 -
Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »Cat shops break the affordability. Some prices (and drops) in this game are so ridiculous that it's no wonder some people have to merchant to get it. In the other games, merchanting simply doesn't exist.
And here's the kick: the game is designed around an economy without a select few merchanting and fooling the others. This means, consequently, prices aren't as ridiculous, and drops not as ****, since otherwise no one could afford them.
Cat shops break affordability? You do realize that most crafting mats are cheaper if you buy them from a cat shop than if you were to purchase them with gold right?
There is also a thing called competition that you seriously seem to be overlooking. Competition drives prices down, not up.
Also, a lot of people that would have an item for sale wouldn't even be able to sell them if they're afk or unable to set up a cat shop, so MORE items are actually available to purchase.
If PW were to implement an AH-only based system, you would be crying about the 3.5% fee they charge you if your item sells. I sold two items for 7m ea. I got 6.65m back from those auctions. You would be whining about 'omg PWI is stealing from me, they took 700k of my monies'. QQmore.Granted you can't avoid the latter two in a free to play MMO, but the former? This is the first one so **** I've ever seen.
Stop whining. Leave. It's just that simple.You are not supposed to make money farming, you are supposed to make mats and your gear.
You're INSANE. And you're making up stories. Where is this ever stated anywhere, in any game... Farmers growing vegetables shouldn't make money, only grow food to eat. Miners should only mine metal not to make money but to build their own utensils and cars themselves.
You are right out of the stone age. Time to shave your unibrow and become civilized?The very fact that you NEED tons of coins as a result of farming and selling means the GAME DESIGN IS BROKEN, I've outlined above why, but you obviously do not see the problem.
It's not just a single problem, it's the whole interconnections between this and merchanting and whatever else I've outlined above (catshops, etc), that drives the game design in such a horrible direction, making stuff, prices, drops, so insanely ****.
I've come to the conclusion you have absolutely no grasp on how things actually work here.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
I find it weird that somehow catshopping is a bad thing, but they were the second richest player in their last game. To be one of the richest, generally means someone needs to be getting screwed over comparatively unless they slaved away on the game a whole lot. And buying cheap and reselling it high would count.
Also, the big complaint people seem to have, is that it is so expensive to get what they want. But look at the time frame they are wanting it. Lunar wasn't even gone through until almost a year into some servers. But the people wanting it and complaining aren't even that far along.
Of course a non-cash shopper shouldn't get lunar claws until after a year of playing. The only reason their quick level choices were added was to get them up there and needing to buy gold because they skipped all that time the rest of us gained coins from constant grinding. So if they are against cash shopping, don't do any BHs. Don't use oracles. And don't use hypers. Level like normal, and money builds up. Buy sensibly, do your runs for your mats, and grind like crazy to get the 90%+ needed for each level outside of quests. By the time a year or more passes, you guys can go into lunar, and do the runs and earn the claws, same as you always could.
But they don't want to wait, they want it soon. Much sooner than anyone who originally was playing gained it. And PWI gave them that, and also a way to make up for not grinding and gaining all that money from AoE grinds, TT runs, and everything else they would have done in a normal year of leveling.
If you don't like it, boycott everything attached to it. Then some of the posts might be worth reading.
EDIT: In case some people miss the point
Complaining CS makes it hard to be competitive, the CS is what made you even think you had a chance to be competitive. Unless you were around early on in the server, you would not be anywhere close to competitive enough to matter. You would be too low leveled for TW or PK, you would take a year+ to make 100, if you made 100. You would not have had an easy of time, and would have likely fallen into the vacuum that appeared at 60-70. We lost many people from the game after 60, when people don't get much xp from quests anymore. So really most of the complaints would still exist, just their topic would be different.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
I'm not gonna seriously bother responding this properly because, like always, Michael thinks this game is real life... and the matter of fact, he's wrong even there, because he thinks money IRL is created through farming/services, not through loans and taxes to and from the federal reserve.
And yeah sure, many games not having cat shops makes the developers insane. A good chunk of them to say the least. To be honest, I wouldn't be really that surprised if some PWE games don't have them, although I personally don't really trust this company anymore.
And yes catshops do break affordability, not in the minor sense, in the "get rich" sense. If no one had 100 million coins, for example, NOTHING WOULD BE SO EXPENSIVE.
How do you get to 100 million coins without catshopping and farming TT mats?
What happens if PWE sees some few high lvl players have 100 million coins? They make prices accordingly and adjustments for that. Which is BAD for everyone else. I'd bet half of the PWI population falls below the average GDP per capita in this game.
Let's put this another way, economics expert. Care to predict what's the GDP per capita of a player in PWI? b:chuckle
Because, frankly, ANY other advice going above that per player is selfish and devoid of any careful analysis. When you say "everyone" can do it, you mean "everyone CAN, but only few WILL, because it would be obsolete otherwise".
There's a reason merchanting is not a productive activity IRL, and does not drive the GDP up. I don't care what YOU think you deserve, as long as the average GPD per capita is low, and prices are high, THE ECONOMY SUCKS.
Think of how much a player with the average GDP can afford. If you think it's too low, thanks for proving my point.
Tip for you: like in a game, the economy IRL is not closed. It grows. Let me tell you something. The economy in the game does not grow by farming TT mats. /end0
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