What's with the reliance on charms?

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · March 2010

So the other day my friend invites me to join a HH2-3 squad. I had never done 2-3 before, but I figured it couldn't be too bad, and we had 2 level 90 clerics so should be able to do anything. To be honest, it was insanely easy. The only boss where both clerics healed was General Wurlord, the rest of the bosses we had one cleric use RB and the other heal. (skipped ancient evil of course) everything went smooth and to be honest the only difficulty was staying awake. Bosses seemed to hit as hard as their 2-2 versions, just had more HP and took longer.

So today we I end up in a 2-3 squad with some random people. Level 90 cleric, myself, level 90 sin, lvl 90 psy, lvl 89 mage, lvl 85 veno. When we add the last person the veno asks if we should get another cleric for wurlord. Then our cleric says we only need one and that she is "pro", now I've never tried 2-3 wurlord with only 1 cleric but I'm fairly confident I can do it. I'm usually able to cancel the magic attack everytime. After the cleric says she is "pro" she then says "Tank is charmed right?" So I tell her that I did not have a charm, and it was like I just announced christmas was cancelled. Our psychic immediately leaves squad, and shortly thereafter the cleric and lvl 90 sin leave accusing me of being a "fail barb" because, tanking HH uncharmed makes you fail.

My question is, how often would you expect a tank to be charmed and for what instances? I have almost never used a charm in PvE before. I did one FC run where someone gave me a free charm, but I didn't need it. On the all of 2 gamma runs I did, I equipped a bronze charm for double wave. I've been doing frost since level 78 and have never used a charm in there, except for the aforementioned time when someone gave one to me, but I've always been able to do TT, FC, and the majority of RB gamma without a charm simply with good gear for my level, apothecary items, and a good genie. Yet I see it constantly being expected for a tank to be charmed.

Sorry for the tl;dr b:thanks

Unrelated note: I had someone tell me that a cleric also had to have a MP charm at all times, I don't know about other servers but on Raging tide, tokens are 12k each, for 36k you can get 50 event MP pots, dunno why a cleric would need a MP charm.

Cenminator - Dreamweaver · March 2010

actually just did a 2-3 with random squad 8x barb uncharmed and 8x cleric rest was 2 sins wizard and me. had no problems on any of the bosses, other then the extremely crappy drops, 2 apes tails and one lion edge is terrible, stopped after antenna boss.

CJseven - Raging Tide · March 2010

Cenminator - Dreamweaver wrote: »

actually just did a 2-3 with random squad 8x barb uncharmed and 8x cleric rest was 2 sins wizard and me. had no problems on any of the bosses, other then the extremely crappy drops, 2 apes tails and one lion edge is terrible, stopped after antenna boss.

wrong avatarb:surrender was the bm not the veno

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · March 2010

Yea I remember doing 2-2 with you before.

+7 frost fists are hard to keep aggro from b:worried

sins make it so much easier, constant rib strike b:dirty

And yea, those drops suck. Last one I did we got 1 forshura's, no drops from feng (his suck anyways) no drops from ape, and 1 antenna.

GohanX - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Just cuz ur not charmed? Well obviously THEY ARE FAIL because they cant do HH without a charm

CJseven - Raging Tide · March 2010

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yea I remember doing 2-2 with you before.

+7 frost fists are hard to keep aggro from b:worried

sins make it so much easier, constant rib strike b:dirty

And yea, those drops suck. Last one I did we got 1 forshura's, no drops from feng (his suck anyways) no drops from ape, and 1 antenna.

ribstrike throws off the timing on your cancels though, not a bad thing if you have good cpu and no lag, but i have **** cpu and lots of lag so have to time it instead of watch for it

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · March 2010

My CPU isn't really good but I don't usually have lag tanking bosses. Tanking a bunch of mobs though, like in frost, is the only time where lag is a factor. And I don't time my cancels based off of alacrity's cooldown, I went ahead and maxed it so if for some reason I miss a cancel and have to use earthquake, I can get back in the pattern for the next one.

Delia - Harshlands · March 2010

Well, I saw this in world chat, and I agree with you. Yes, it makes things harder on the cleric, but I often prefer my tanks to not wear charms, so if their HP goes below 50% nobody's angry. And I'd rather heal your HP with a cheap ironheart than an expensive charm.

Certainly drum boss would be hard without a charm or a second cleric, since the cleric has to blue bubble, and once you're in blue bubble you can't really control anything, and you're healing less than spamming ironheart would. So you'd need some source of self healing without a second cleric. But as long as you have apoc items / event pots / genie skills and can keep up, you should be fine.

And no, I wouldn't expect clerics to be charmed with current gold prices.

Lightaine - Dreamweaver · March 2010

You are fail barb for calling it HH, that is all.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · March 2010

You got that lunar wep yet?

Man - Raging Tide · March 2010

That boss magic attack can easily hit you for 11k.

I would never ever recommend doing him w/ no charm b/c its just **** if he ever does hit you with his magic attack.

You either need a strong cleric, tank with large hp pool. Or weak cleric BB, and a wiz healing you. Otherwise you just need to spam pots, have good tanking genie skills.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · March 2010

Did him with no charm before, I was able to cancel his magic attack everytime. Maxed alacrity, and I have earthquake on my HH genie incase I miss with alacrity.

I'm thinking about maybe bringing some of the reduce magic damage by 33% charms you can make at the apothecary next time, just incase.

But, meh, he wasn't hard at all. I just got into the right pattern of canceling his attack and from that point on it was just the usual flesh ream, flesh ream, alacrity, flesh ream, flesh ream, alacrity.

Tojop - Dreamweaver · March 2010

First off, I agree with Lightaine - "HH" is fail. Second, you should never use a charm in TT. An uncharmed barb is like a well behaved child; you just don't need to watch it or pay attention to it. Ever. Just let him do his own thing, he's fine. Go get a glass of wine or something.

More on topic: I've done a ton of 2-3 runs with Splife and Finkz on DW (barb and wiz, respectively), and we never did it with two clerics, Splife rarely charmed. Our squad was 5 person: perfect squad with no bm. Finkz would heal during Wurlord while I BBed, then spot heal for Ape while I BBed. We never killed Astral or Belial.

These runs ran an hour, tops, at a time when antenna was a cool 2m, arm was 1m, and ape tail was easily 300k. Usually the archer got "screwed" with 2 tails (read: 600k an hour) or the like. Other people say, "My two cents." This is my $2.50.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · March 2010

I don't plan on using charms for HH, ever, I was just wondering if people actually expect a barb to use one.

tweakz · March 2010

Because advice and guides that support using cash shop items and disposables instead of investments seam to get stickied. I play charmless and because I do: I can afford proper gear to not need the charm. Of course some would spend that extra coin on fashion instead if they could. b:chuckle

ShadowX - Raging Tide · March 2010

It's actually better to go uncharmed, especially with wiz heal.

You won't die, but the magic spike+wrong wiz heal timing will give u unnecessary ticks.

Ryoku_ - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

I don't plan on using charms for HH, ever, I was just wondering if people actually expect a barb to use one.

Off Topic : sigh could you please stop calling it HH i bet you dont even know what HH stands for its called TT for a reason wanna know why? cause its Twilight Temple

On Topic : Most people if your going in a random group would prefer to have a barb charmed for 1 main reason "Oracle/Hyper Noobs" i mean i can make a barb hyper it up and not know what the hell i am doing. no pots but spamming fleshream or something makes a clerics job easier.

EthikaII - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

After the cleric says she is "pro" she then says "Tank is charmed right?" So I tell her that I did not have a charm, and it was like I just announced christmas was cancelled. Our psychic immediately leaves squad, and shortly thereafter the cleric and lvl 90 sin leave accusing me of being a "fail barb" because, tanking HH uncharmed makes you fail.

Nub guess she's not so pro

Ha, I'v done wurlord 1 cleric and barb is normaly charmed but her being Fail/nub is becuase she opened her mouth that she was so great in every way before knowing the situation.If your not charmed its best to have 2 clerics.
and no a cleric doesn't have to be mp /HP charm at any time, granted it would be nice to have a mp charm the times before hitting lvl 75 (finaly event mp herb)

the only charm my cleric would have ever rly had on her would be from the tb quest if i had not had a lvling partner how was overly kind. now that he doesn't play anymore after the 400k on this hp charm is gone ill be relying on my good ol heals and event pots

Side note: i wish these idiots like this would read forum just so they know what others think of them b:shocked

tuskimitsu · March 2010

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

So today we I end up in a 2-3 squad with some random people. Level 90 cleric, myself, level 90 sin, lvl 90 psy, lvl 89 mage, lvl 85 veno. When we add the last person the veno asks if we should get another cleric for wurlord. Then our cleric says we only need one and that she is "pro", now I've never tried 2-3 wurlord with only 1 cleric but I'm fairly confident I can do it. I'm usually able to cancel the magic attack everytime. After the cleric says she is "pro" she then says "Tank is charmed right?" So I tell her that I did not have a charm, and it was like I just announced christmas was cancelled. Our psychic immediately leaves squad, and shortly thereafter the cleric and lvl 90 sin leave accusing me of being a "fail barb" because, tanking HH uncharmed makes you fail.

I always do the Wurlord in 2-3 with one cleric. The barb I squad with does well with alac. He carries a genie with earthquake with him and he has no charm all the time, unless he does the TW the same day haha. You say there was psychic in squad? Aiya! That psychic lazy?

A psychic is nice support/dd to have killing Wurlord. I always stop Wurlord's spells for the barb with my landslide skill as a psychic, so he can spam ream because I have crazy archer friend who likes to demon spark all time like a crazy man and have aggro war with barb like a crazy xD. Landslide has the 8 second cooldown, same as alac lvl 10 no? Also, the empowered vigor, (mines lvl 8 because I am very cheap and lazy. forgive me QQ) heals boost the healing of the cleric to barb. I wished they would've stayed with you. Well kudos to you for knowing what you're doing!

Back to topic:

On other side. Some people, even knowing what's doable or not don't like to take risks and would like their tank charmed or stand in BB of a secondary cleric, thinking it will always save them. I think it's a waste of man power considering they could attack the boss or set up a red bubble. Though that red bubble will kind of **** with everyone's timing on class specific skill, like landslinde for psy / alac for barb / sin's cancle skill that throw dagger i think? / bm fist skill shadow kick and whatever is out there for ex. (not taking into account the cooldown of specific skill, but they can help out a lil ya know?) Though, there are quite a bit of players out there that know how to adjust to that b:laugh

^ Only thinking about Wurlord atm.

Neodaystar - Sanctuary · March 2010

Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »

First off, I agree with Lightaine - "HH" is fail.
These runs ran an hour, tops, at a time when antenna was a cool 2m, arm was 1m, and ape tail was easily 300k. Usually the archer got "screwed" with 2 tails (read: 600k an hour) or the like. Other people say, "My two cents." This is my $2.50.

<.< this is why I don't do TTs with random people anymore and those people world chatting for an archer for AE...

- well back to the main topic - you don't need to be charmed for TTs. I've done 2-3 with just a cleric and uncharmed barb for wulord, if you really need the extra hp gain - just use hp foods/pots and genie heal. In fact, you can do astral without a barb to tank and have just one cleric bb. Anything a herc can tank, pretty much any class with 5k+ unbuffed hp can tank.

Airyll - Dreamweaver · March 2010

This is one of the noobish stigmas that has circulated along with "Only a barb can tank anything, period" and "If a cleric happens to DD in between IHs they're trying to kill you on purpose."

The only people who fail, are the people who seriously believe these things to be true.

Personally, while I know many good barb friends who are charmed, my best barbs are the ones who are uncharmed 90% of the time, and have a charm just for kicks every now and then because, say, they PK.

LifeHunting - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Since I usually fight major mobs for PvE, i like to keep myself charmed b:surrender

But other then that (and the occasional me having to tank), I don't really need a charm

Aya__ - Heavens Tear · March 2010

hp charm for tank = kind of insurance policy, but isnt really needed (not sure about rb here tho)
but sometimes i prefer uncharmed tank because im so used to qq after every charm tick that even with ppl who accept it as a part of game i cringe every time i see hp bar fill up half a second before stream hits b:surrender

as for clerics wearing mp charm - im LAZY. see? i said that. aloud. i do carry event food and pots and elixirs too, so few times i lost charm in the middle of instance noone noticed any difference, but i was very unhappy with having to actually monitor my mp bar (normally i try to pop a pot before my charm ticks, 'try' being key word here b:chuckle)

Foxx_trott - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Charms are as said above an insurance policy for the clerics, in case they goof and are slow to heal you when you most need it. But by reading your posts, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders, and I'd let you tank for me anytime. If we were on the same server that is, lol.

Don't sweat the silly stuff some idiots say. If they didn't want to go with you w/o a charm they have the right to bow out if they didn't like it. But not to give you hell about it. This is why I normally only like to group with guildies, or good friends. PUG's just suxxors.

Garrand - Heavens Tear · March 2010

OP is right, u don't need a charm for 2-3.

but... if things go wrong on belial without a charm u are in serious trouble.

the only instances that really need charms are RB and tt 3-3.

unless u are a pure magic defense barb with at least 20k hp u will always need a charm for RB. don't consider going on one unless u are, as u will not make it past wave 3. the barb generally has to go off on their own to round up 20-30+ mobs at a time, and when they all hit u for magic damage u are going to need some form of healing (pots and genie skills are not enough). saying that there are some barbs who can do rb uncharmed but they are 100+ and have amazing gear.

tt 3-3 is another example. this instance has several bosses that cause issues for a healing cleric. steelation can sleep the cleric in which case u go 15 seconds or more with no heals and he hits fairly hard over time. other bosses in there like twilight emperor have powerful aoes and stuns which means ur cleric will have to aoe heal at times and leave u for a few seconds (this happens regularly so invoking is not always an option).

in these instances a charm is a must sadly. even the normal mobs in 3-3 especially can hit fairly hard. rb and 3-3 are also pretty unpredictable so even a squad with great skills and teamwork can get in trouble. having a charm gives u a last defense that will save u in these places.

Trayous - Sanctuary · March 2010

LMAO of that cleric .. wait maybe she didint mean Professional but instead meant she charges for you know what and the charm was the only way you could handle her b:laugh

giniuz · March 2010

This is easy:

You need charm for TT 2.3, 3.3 and RB delta, period!

Everyone else who say something else is fail.

Saying you did TT 2-3 without doing Belial => Fail !
It s like saying I ve won a TW without entering enemy's base, TT2.3 without belial is just not TT2.3

Saying you can do it because you did it once with a pro team => Fail !
You won't do it with pro team everytime except if you have reallyyyy nice friends to be there for you everytime you want.

Saying that you don't need charm because sometimes you can do it without => Fail !
If you care for your pt members, you don't gamble on the party's safety, even with 80% success rate, you HAVE TO always carry a charm, at least in inventory if things got messed up.
You can always fail one interrupt because of lag or whatever reason, IT CAN HAPPEN.
And if it does, the charm of your team members is gonna suffer lots of dammages in the best case, and the party will die in the worst case.

Most of the time in 2.3, RB, I realize that without charm it would have been the same (only a few ticks and in no critical moment) BUT sometimes things can messed up, interrupt failing, blue bubble interrupted, random aggro,... we can never be sure at 100% that nothing uncalled for will happen in these instances.

TT 2.3,3.3 with only 1 cleric? EPIC FAIL, with random aggro boss like belial and charlie, if ep is one shotted twice, pt is dead. You have to call 2nd cleric for these boss, even low lvl to be able to rez the main cleric while the barb tortlen(evoque?)

The job of a barb(with the cleric) is to keep his pt safe in 100% of the case, if you don't, you fail, if you gamble, you fail.
Seeing so many ppl bragging about doing these without charm.. for sure I would never pt on with ppl thinking that way.

Just my 2 cents..

--
Ginius dark WB 97
PW MS : Wodan (pvp non oracle server)

SinCityChick - Dreamweaver · March 2010

giniuz wrote: »

This is easy:

You need charm for TT 2.3, 3.3 and RB delta, period!

Everyone else who say something else is fail.

(snip)

Wow...that's not flaming everyone in this thread at ALL...If you are gonna do that, at least do it on your main...Then people can see who you REALLY are, and if you have ever gotten anywhere near doing it yourself. As of right now, for all we know, you could be a level 1 noob with no clue who Belial even is, and are just parroting some long-forsaken idiom that someone told you.

Ginius dark WB 97
PW MS : Wodan (pvp non oracle server)

And btw, post in your own forums...or post on your main...pick one.

Edit: Darn avatar acting up again >.>

Airyll - Dreamweaver · March 2010

giniuz wrote: »

Flaming everybody and everything that has been said in this thread by anyone => fail!

Need anybody say anything more?

Charms are, as has been said a couple of times, an insurance policy, but if a tank needs a charm to stay alive he cannot be trusted as a tank.

A good tank can tank most things without a charm - and this makes him an even better tank with a charm.

A tank who needs a charm to survive is a tank I don't want to squad with, because these are the tanks who seriously fail when something does go wrong.

BTW, as has also been said, go post on your forums.

giniuz · March 2010

Sorry to disappoint you but I don't have main/alts/anything on PWI ^^
I've just been reading this forum for several months because there are lots of good information

I come from a server where oracles does not exists, so most of the ppl who reached hight level did it through hardship, teamwork, thinking and so on.
I know lots of ppl in pwi did the same, I m not arguing about who's better

But when I see so many ppl saying that charmed barb are failed, that if you're pro you don't wear charm, that if you've done something once with a pro pt you can do it all time, that selfish barbs don't want to waste a bit of gold in order to keep his pt safe and think that gambling is the best solution, yes I think I am allowed to say that this is wrong

Wow...that's not flaming everyone in this thread at ALL

ofc I did it on purpose to catch the attention

But then I explain why and if you want to discuss my arguments, please do it.

[As of right now, for all we know, you could be a level 1 noob with no clue who Belial even is, and are just parroting some long-forsaken idiom that someone told you]
You re right on this point, so you can still ask for me:
Name : Ginius
Guild : Heroes
Server : Wodan (PW MS)
Race: Werebeast (barbarian)
Path : Demon
Level : 97 (atm, soon 98)

And for my points, even if you don't believe me, Belial has a random aggro ^^, and I ve done countless TT(HH) 2.3 to get my GX, so believe me I know this guy

As for 3.3, when I have to lure out the 3 first boss, I can tell you I'm glad I got a hiero, same for Charlie, same for the last boss when interrupt fail and EP is one shotted.
And for RB, well it's the main instance to lvl up, so I do almost a daily run when I m not out.

I can definitely understand you don't believe my ID (you can still ask for me in pw ms ^^), but the arguments I gave are nonetheless valid.
I don't want to see young barbs thinking they can do that without charm and being at the origin of a fail party.
I'm not really a carebear, more pvp oriented but I still hate when barb are failing because of the bad reputation it can give (same for barb asking for money).

I didn't want to be mean, I just think that most of the comments in that thread can mislead ppl to think wrong things

A tank who needs a charm to survive is a tank I don't want to squad with, because these are the tanks who seriously fail when something does go wrong.

I agree, if you read what I ve said, is that this insurance policy is mandatory for the safety of the pt.
Ofc you can jsut stay alive, tortlen and don't take aggro back when it messed up, but your job as a tank is not only to stay alive but to keep everyone else alive.

I didn't think it was so weird

And I don' t disagree with everyone, I agree with Garrand who said pretty much the same (2 first sentences) ^^

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · March 2010

Ryoku_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Off Topic : sigh could you please stop calling it HH i bet you dont even know what HH stands for its called TT for a reason wanna know why? cause its Twilight Temple

On Topic : Most people if your going in a random group would prefer to have a barb charmed for 1 main reason "Oracle/Hyper Noobs" i mean i can make a barb hyper it up and not know what the hell i am doing. no pots but spamming fleshream or something makes a clerics job easier.

I played PW-MY for 6 months before coming here, I know what HH stands for.

What's with the reliance on charms?

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