Why can't Archers Use Daggers?

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Why do archers use fists a str based weapon?

Quilue - Sanctuary · March 2010

cuz fists are fast

daggers are slower than fists and its damage is dex based, thus it would seem like daggers would be inferior to fists for bms in every way.

Okeano - Harshlands · March 2010

All I have to say to this topic is...

Na na na na boo boo.

b:avoid

Kyuukyokutai - Lost City · March 2010

They can't use Daggers for the same reason Sins can't use Arbalest or Slingshots.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

cuz fists are fast

daggers are slower than fists and its damage is dex based, thus it would seem like daggers would be inferior to fists for bms in every way.

All the other weapons in a bm's tree are slower then daggers. I would think being a Blademaster would also know how to use a dagger.....And a new tree would be needed of course....

Okeano - Harshlands · March 2010

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

All the other weapons in a bm's tree are slower then daggers. I would think being a Blademaster would also know how to use a dagger.....And a new tree would be needed of course....

Maybe add in some stealth and teleport skills to go with it. Possibly more chi skills too.

Quilue - Sanctuary · March 2010

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

All the other weapons in a bm's tree are slower then daggers. I would think being a Blademaster would also know how to use a dagger.....And a new tree would be needed of course....

but all other weapons in a bm tree hit harder than fists

since daggers are dex based, you would think that it would hit slower than fists but also not hit as hard. if you really really want to go 3dex/level or however it is for daggers and not do a lot of damage with other weapons then go right on ahead i guess.

TerminatorX - Lost City · March 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

but all other weapons in a bm tree hit harder than fists

since daggers are dex based, you would think that it would hit slower than fists but also not hit as hard. if you really really want to go 3dex/level or however it is for daggers and not do a lot of damage with other weapons then go right on ahead i guess.

Best BM DPS comes from Fists, without doubt.

Archers should be able to use daggers, and the reasoning is that they can hit 5 atk/sec just like Fists but don't require excessively pumping Str like Fists. More Dex = Better bow damage.

Olba - Sanctuary · March 2010

TerminatorX - Lost City wrote: »

Best BM DPS comes from Fists, without doubt.

Archers should be able to use daggers, and the reasoning is that they can hit 5 atk/sec just like Fists but don't require excessively pumping Str like Fists. More Dex = Better bow damage.

And what you would see then is most Archers running around with Daggers, since it would be so epic. I mean, really, high atk/s, high crit%, high damage, there's nothing not to like.

It would also make Sage Archers more popular, since the damage reduction on Sage Spark would help when using Daggers.

Also, it would make Assassins only useful for PvP, since Archers could take both close and ranged DPS.

TerminatorX - Lost City · March 2010

Sins are still more effective with daggers than Archers, no? (ignores Blazing Arrow)

DrowElfQueen - Dreamweaver · March 2010

I would love my archer to use daggers. Having a 2nd'ry weapon is very useful to me. I use my bow on ranged mobs and i use fist on melee mobs. IMO, i dont care if i cant use my skills, i know im knocking the **** outta the mob. Using daggers instead would be so lovely. I normally dont pvp, but when i do, i use my fist. The only skill i got going is my dodge/evasion and my lovely hp. For those that know, know my hp b:chuckle Fear the Drow.

GalenNn - Lost City · March 2010

I personally don't think archers should use daggers but i do think that thy should have some kind of secondary weapon with some skills for when thy run out of arrows and such but otherwise i dont

TerminatorX - Lost City · March 2010

Fist + Blazing Arrow

That combo alone rivals BMs, and that's used only as a back-up against mobs with Increased Life/Defense.

Or a Magic Sword...

Linkmas - Sanctuary · March 2010

b:kiss
YES
we should use daggers cuz
+ assassins and archers have the smae build ===> same damage (normal attack)
+ at close range we deal 1/2 dammage but using daggers it is full
+ every class has almost like 3 kinds of wepons only archers ( i know b:shutup )
so why we shouldn t?
or r the other clases afraid of full dammage at close range?
b:victory b:victory

Ussichu - Sanctuary · March 2010

DrowElfQueen - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I would love my archer to use daggers. Having a 2nd'ry weapon is very useful to me. I use my bow on ranged mobs and i use fist on melee mobs. IMO, i dont care if i cant use my skills, i know im knocking the **** outta the mob. Using daggers instead would be so lovely. I normally dont pvp, but when i do, i use my fist. The only skill i got going is my dodge/evasion and my lovely hp. For those that know, know my hp b:chuckle Fear the Drow.

Archers have a non-required weapon skill tree, winged shell, pledge, span and grace XD

Sint - Harshlands · May 2010

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The reason why an archer with daggers is overpowered is because of the fact that its a dex damage modified weapon. You could pwn from afar (like archers can now) with a bow and pwn at close range with higher damage than a hit/claw combo (which is supposedly already over powered as it is). At least with claws/fists, the damage is still modified by strength and not dex.

You may say that claws/fists are overpowered, and they are pretty fearsome, but every archer who stats for lunar claws or TT100 fists is sacrificing about 40 dex off their pure builds. If an archer could use daggers, they also would not have to restat-- they would maintain their high dex for accuracy & evade at close range, too.

Also, there is probably good reason why an assassin isn't given a third spark. If they were given a third one, they could demon spark for top 5 hits/sec with less than awesome end-game gear. Archers, however (and especially demon archers) benefit from the 500% spark and hit interval boosts.

You say that an assassin would still do more dmg with daggers? Not so. It is, in all likelihood similar to claws/fists, and that blazing arrow would be adding damage to your DPS in the form of magic damage. All points being equal, the dagger mastery boosts dagger weapon damage by 60%, dealing physical damage. A sage archer will be dealing 60% weapon damage per hit using blazing arrow while diversifying dmg type. Arguably, a demon archer would only do 50% weapon fire dmg per hit and could not match dmg/hit of an assassin.

So, the simple answer is... archer fists/claws are overpowered, and even more so at end-game with -hit interval modifiers. Daggers are even more overpowered because they have generally higher base dmg and are modified by dex.... putting them in a pure dex archer's hands would be way overpowered.

get full interval gear on an archer and on a sin. with daggers, that would be 5 aps with demon spark. the archer would permaspark. awesome. the sin would permaspark and use their chi hax to add some ultis to the mix. for the record, yeah, they can. now, you have a sin critting 3/4, hitting 5 a sec and using subsea for an additional 30% dmg.

someone complained about broken permaspark bms right?

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm suggesting that a properly equipped sage archer can out DD a BM and an assassin while having perma sage spark. Archers were designed to attack from afar and as much as I enjoy the advantages provided, I think that furthering the DPS gap in favor of an archer for an assassin weapon... is a bit ludicrous. But yea, I am looking at this as a DPS question only.

wrong, check above.

Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »

And what you would see then is most Archers running around with Daggers, since it would be so epic. I mean, really, high atk/s, high crit%, high damage, there's nothing not to like.

It would also make Sage Archers more popular, since the damage reduction on Sage Spark would help when using Daggers.

Also, it would make Assassins only useful for PvP, since Archers could take both close and ranged DPS.

even if they use lionheart orns, asura bracers and boots, nirvana pants, 8jun plate, lunar robe, Love Up And Down/Pan Gu, Creator, and -.1 daggers, sage archers cant reach permaspark with daggers. Demon celestials can, though. You would see MORE demon archers.

Archers have a non-required weapon skill tree, winged shell, pledge, span and grace.

why would you want to cast pledge or wingspan without re-equiping your bow?

and i cant find your fanfic.

Quilue - Sanctuary · May 2010

demon wingspan for a free shield.

yeah with recent looks at top end assassins you cannot say archers would outDD sins with daggers. that's just ridiculous.

Sint - Harshlands · May 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

demon wingspan for a free shield.

yeah with recent looks at top end assassins you cannot say archers would outDD sins with daggers. that's just ridiculous.

what i meant is, if you were going to cast either wingspan or pledge, you'd re-equip your bow to do it. usign a bow raises your skill dmg considerably. (same reason i think using a crossbow to cast skills is better than doing it with your normal bow, provided the weapons are equivalent, since a crossbow does actually have higher average dmg. (weapons in this game all seem to have comparable dps)

speed gear should be percentual, like channeling.

NiightmareXz - Harshlands · May 2010

...

because we're not sins?

jokerxdude · May 2010

Because we would own and put the assassians out their job.

_Leif - Lost City · May 2010

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

what i meant is, if you were going to cast either wingspan or pledge, you'd re-equip your bow to do it. usign a bow raises your skill dmg considerably. (same reason i think using a crossbow to cast skills is better than doing it with your normal bow, provided the weapons are equivalent, since a crossbow does actually have higher average dmg. (weapons in this game all seem to have comparable dps)

speed gear should be percentual, like channeling.

Bows and crossbows actually have the same average damage, crossbows just have the potential for higher spike damage.

And no, speed gear should stay at a fixed interval as opposed to %. The entire point of high interval is too max out the aps of low damage weapons (fists, claws, daggers). If it was a percentage, there would be an inherent advantage to using interval gear with higher damage weapons. For example, using a crossbow (highest potential damage per hit weapon) with high % interval gear could achieve 3.33 aps. Since crossbow damage >>>>>> fist damage, interval archers would be unstoppable with a crossbow.

Legerity - Sanctuary · May 2010

_Leif - Lost City wrote: »

Bows and crossbows actually have the same average damage, crossbows just have the potential for higher spike damage.

And no, speed gear should stay at a fixed interval as opposed to %. The entire point of high interval is too max out the aps of low damage weapons (fists, claws, daggers). If it was a percentage, there would be an inherent advantage to using interval gear with higher damage weapons. For example, using a crossbow (highest potential damage per hit weapon) with high % interval gear could achieve 3.33 aps. Since crossbow damage >>>>>> fist damage, interval archers would be unstoppable with a crossbow.

Re: 3.33aps for crossbow.

Not necessarily true. Crossbows have a base speed of 1.6seconds per shot. Assuming that there would be a direct correlation between -0.05s interval and -5% interval, that would mean you could get roughly -60% interval (extremely stacked -interval). 1.6 seconds minus 60% interval is not even close to 3.33aps even after demon sparked.

_Leif - Lost City · May 2010

My mistake, I should've done the math myself before posting in the archer forums b:surrender.

Still, my point that higher damage weapons would benefit more from high interval gear if it was based on a fix percentage is valid. With a base aps of .625, '-60% interval' would bring you all the way to 1.5 aps (with demon spark). Similar interval gear on a dagger would bring you to 3.125 (which rounds up to 3.33 or down to 3?). The fact that crossbows have on average a 12% damage bonus over daggers at this point is somewhat negligible compared to the fact that they have a range that is 15 times longer.

IE a high interval crossbow archer would be like a 3 aps sin slashing at you from 30 meters away. b:shocked

Quilue - Sanctuary · May 2010

what are you talking about? where is this connection between "all the way to 1.5 attack/s"

to 3 attacks/s?

Telarith - Sanctuary · May 2010

1.6 * .4 * .75 = .48, or 2 a second about.

1.6 * .4 * .7 = .448 or 2.32 a second (if they overhaul it, might as well do away with interval rounding)

So guess it depends how high someone is will to get their str genie with Relentless Courage for over-all end APS of crossbow.

All out genie:

1.6 * .4 * .64 = close to 2.5 a second at max end.

Alyyy - Sanctuary · May 2010

cuz theyre for 1 class only...u got slingshots so hush...we got nothin >.<

which leads to this

b:chucklewhy arent clerics/venos/wizies able to use orbs?(...or heavy armour without nerfin the mag atack...)

so many bad questions so litle time...b:chuckle

b:shockedin the end when(if) u would be able to use them you would be happy for a bit then you would get bored...and anyway usin daggers for archers is stupid...what do u gain from it o.o? yah not much.. fists are enough for that

b:shockedalso...wtf this is still alive

Shulkie - Dreamweaver · May 2010

i know i thought this thread woulda died under its own weight in fail long ago

just give archers ability to use daggers..as long as venos get to use hammers/fists/daggers too and be able to transform to fox - while you are at it give venos the benefit of bloodpaint if in a squad with sin and in fox form (melee phys skills after all)

and that is about as likely to happen as archers getting daggers

Legerity - Sanctuary · May 2010

_Leif - Lost City wrote: »

My mistake, I should've done the math myself before posting in the archer forums b:surrender.

Still, my point that higher damage weapons would benefit more from high interval gear if it was based on a fix percentage is valid. With a base aps of .625, '-60% interval' would bring you all the way to 1.5 aps (with demon spark). Similar interval gear on a dagger would bring you to 3.125 (which rounds up to 3.33 or down to 3?). The fact that crossbows have on average a 12% damage bonus over daggers at this point is somewhat negligible compared to the fact that they have a range that is 15 times longer.

IE a high interval crossbow archer would be like a 3 aps sin slashing at you from 30 meters away. b:shocked

You're still calculating it wrong if I have not mistaken. It takes 1.6 seconds to shoot once. With -60% interval, it will become 1.6*(1-0.6) = 0.64. Due to the mechanics of this property, it becomes 0.65 and with demon spark, that's 0.65*(1-0.25) = 0.49. Again this would be raised to 0.5.

With every single annipack item release that is interval related, exploiting double interval tt99 set bonus and having rank 8 along with nirvana leggings, this along with being demon sparked can only make you shoot slightly less than 2 a second because -0.6 interval (or in this case -60%) is not possible unless you can magically make an extra -0.05 interval item appear (with all that was mentioned above, you're only at -0.55. To get the last -0.05 you'd need 3 interval mods on the crossbow and a 3 interval mod wrist would not work).

An assassin with -60% would be at 0.8*0.4 = 0.32 and rounded at to be at 0.3. A 0.3 cycle is enough to get you to 5aps while sparked. However like I mentioned, the realistic cash shopping interval stack limit is at -0.55s i.e -55%. Regardless, you can still permaspark with 4aps and on top of that your class has some serious chi gaining abilities. I doubt a high interval crossbow archer could outdps a dagger sin.

edit: actually, what's amusing is -55% and -60% for the crossbow archer is 2aps while demon sparked.

Sint - Harshlands · May 2010

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're still calculating it wrong if I have not mistaken. It takes 1.6 seconds to shoot once. With -60% interval, it will become 1.6*(1-0.6) = 0.64. Due to the mechanics of this property, it becomes 0.65 and with demon spark, that's 0.65*(1-0.25) = 0.49. Again this would be raised to 0.5.

With every single annipack item release that is interval related, exploiting double interval tt99 set bonus and having rank 8 along with nirvana leggings, this along with being demon sparked can only make you shoot slightly less than 2 a second because -0.6 interval (or in this case -60%) is not possible unless you can magically make an extra -0.05 interval item appear (with all that was mentioned above, you're only at -0.55. To get the last -0.05 you'd need 3 interval mods on the crossbow and a 3 interval mod wrist would not work).

An assassin with -60% would be at 0.8*0.4 = 0.32 and rounded at to be at 0.3. A 0.3 cycle is enough to get you to 5aps while sparked. However like I mentioned, the realistic cash shopping interval stack limit is at -0.55s i.e -55%. Regardless, you can still permaspark with 4aps and on top of that your class has some serious chi gaining abilities. I doubt a high interval crossbow archer could outdps a dagger sin.

edit: actually, what's amusing is -55% and -60% for the crossbow archer is 2aps while demon sparked.

as a matter of fact, -60% s/hit would make you do 250% of your normal dmg, regardless of what weapon you're using.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · May 2010

A flat % interval decrease would benefit all weapons equally ignoring the rounding issues.

The reason why daggers were not made to be all-class weapons was that it would require additional developer time to create the new animations and it would be hard to justify that cost when there is no immediate monetary benefit to the company. It's easier to use new content to promote the game rather than fix old bugs or balance issues.

Why can't Archers Use Daggers?

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