Why can't Archers Use Daggers?

Legerity - Sanctuary

Channman - Lost City wrote: »

knockback arrow doesnt knockback players -_-

Incarnata never said anything about knockback working on players.

What she meant was "Oh and Venos won't be using pets on me? Of course they are! That's why I am using Knockback Arrow. To. Knock. The. Pets. Back."

Need it drawn out anymore?

Homaru - Harshlands

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

Need it drawn out anymore?

Yes please.

Channman - Lost City

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

Incarnata never said anything about knockback working on players.

What she meant was "Oh and Venos won't be using pets on me? Of course they are! That's why I am using Knockback Arrow. To. Knock. The. Pets. Back."

Need it drawn out anymore?

shut up b:angry saying that in the first place would have been better cause im not the only one who didnt know that -_-

Mahdust - Harshlands

Holy **** there's a surprising amount of flame in this thread. x-X

If I was an archer i'd love to have a set of daggers for DDing on bosses and such, so I would be able to spark more and not waste arrows/shots.

__Hysteria__ - Harshlands

lmao at ur sig Mah

DrkLordZ - Sanctuary

spoons, this thread dont belond in archer forum, move it to suggestion box.

lymphocyte

archers are ranged attackers. daggers would be pointless.

Asperitas - Lost City

lymphocyte wrote: »

archers are ranged attackers. daggers would be pointless.

No.

123456789ten

truekossy

lymphocyte wrote: »

archers are ranged attackers. daggers would be pointless.

Snipers are ranged attackers. Knowing hand-to-hand or any other form of basic self-defense would be pointless.

nator

try swords, your saying when the mob comes up close to atk it right, seen a couple of archers using those.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

There is no point in an archer using daggers, as they already have a close-range alternative with claws and fists. A high level dagger/fist archer is one of the best DPS characters in the game. At levels 95+, you can do far more many times damage with them than you can with a bow. Of course, you'll still have a bow because you'll want to be able to use the vast majority of your skills.

Varscona - Sanctuary

if there's no point then there's no harm in archers being able to use daggers is there? just like how archers are still allowed to use axes, swords, magic swords, whatever else in the game right? ijs.

forget dps, this would simply be the most convenient melee weapon ever.

Sanctam - Dreamweaver

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There is no point in an archer using daggers, as they already have a better close-range alternative with claws and fists. A high level dagger/fist archer is one of the best DPS characters in the game. At levels 95+, you can do far more many times damage with them than you can with a bow. Of course, you'll still have a bow because you'll want to be able to use the vast majority of your skills.

I don't understand why claws or fists would be better. I mean, wouldn't a dex-based melee weapon simlilar to claws or fists be better? This way we get full damage on bows + full damage on melee, without having to tradeoff dex for str like with fists.

Not arguing with you, as you obviously have more experience than me in this respect. Just wondering why you would think fists are more desirable.

TigerLily - Lost City

Sanctam - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I don't understand why claws or fists would be better. I mean, wouldn't a dex-based melee weapon simlilar to claws or fists be better? This way we get full damage on bows + full damage on melee, without having to tradeoff dex for str like with fists.

Not arguing with you, as you obviously have more experience than me in this respect. Just wondering why you would think fists are more desirable.

Cuz 95+ lunar claws or lvl HH100 fists are broken endgame if you stack interval. You hit so damn fast no bow will come close to that attack speed. Its the weapon itself and how interval works once u start stacking it that makes it so desirable. Im no pro on dps but do the math: with full set of interval gear you can hit about 5 /sec with hh100fist/Lunar claws. With bow maybe at best 1 /sec. That is if you have interval cloak + tome + rank8 armor etc.

Basically a Bm weapon thats completely fks up our build makes us do more dmg endgame - and we dont even have fist mastery b:chuckle

Alltho you cant use any archer skills with fists of course.

Sanctam - Dreamweaver

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Cuz 95+ lunar claws or lvl HH100 fists are broken endgame if you stack interval. You hit so damn fast no bow will come close to that attack speed. Its the weapon itself and how interval works once u start stacking it that makes it so desirable. Im no pro on dps but do the math: with full set of interval gear you can hit about 5 /sec with hh100fist/Lunar claws. With bow maybe at best 1 /sec. That is if you have interval cloak + tome + rank8 armor etc.

Basically a Bm weapon thats completely fks up our build makes us do more dmg endgame - and we dont even have fist mastery b:chuckle

Alltho you cant use any archer skills with fists of course.

Ahh, so its the weapon itself? Well then, I will simply hope that new daggers come out with -int (if archers ever get to use them) ^^.

Quilue - Sanctuary

the funny thing is that...apparently you can reach 3.33 attacks/s with daggers while wearing 8jun chest...sooo demon sparked that would be 5 attacks/s i'm assuming

you can use wings of grace, winged shell, wingspan, spark, and condor while wearing any weapon. it's kind of funny dueling lower level bms with me wielding fists that way.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Sanctam - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ahh, so its the weapon itself? Well then, I will simply hope that new daggers come out with -int (if archers ever get to use them) ^^.

I don't think they'll do this... I think they've learned their lesson.

5 Attacks/second with daggers would be nice because of the dex modifier, but yea... that won't happen.

-.1 interval daggers on an archer would be so phenomenally overpowered... no one would build an assassin if an archer had this advantage. You see, this question is just silly.

Quilue - Sanctuary

HA you would think so...that they wouldn't reduce a spike-oriented perma-spark class to auto hitting fist bm-style...but i see from pwdatabase that the 8jun chest for sins indeed has -0.1s interval

and others have seen that it is possible to get -interval on Nirvana daggers from the Nirvana forges.

TigerLily - Lost City

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I don't think they'll do this... I think they've learned their lesson.

5 Attacks/second with daggers would be nice because of the dex modifier, but yea... that won't happen.

-.1 interval daggers on an archer would be so phenomenally overpowered... no one would build an assassin if an archer had this advantage. You see, this question is just silly.

Why would it be so "phenomenally overpowered"?

Assassins uses the same daggers + are dexbuild and they also have dagger devotion giving (im guessing at lvl 11) 75-90% more weapon attack. They have far more crit than archers after using wolf emblem. Assassins can also get a highly refined lunar bow at lvl 95, which im guessing most of the richer ones or alts, like mine, will do. Does that mean assassins are overpowered?

I guess the only aspect of "phenomenally overpowered" i can see is the versatility archers would gain with access to daggers. Could switch to bow for using metal on heavy armor + Sharptooth than back to daggers on robe/la. But our metal skills sucks anyway since they have fixed metal dmg and not %-in weapon dmg.

We would also never come close to the dmg assassin does with daggers, not just cuz of the mastery but sins daggers skills have some pretty ridiculous dmg mods. Combined with chill of the depth and triple spark some are kinda 1 shoots on many robe users. Skills you cant use as archer of course.

I think giving archers access to daggers might make them slightly more balanced endgame b:surrender.

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

As i read these thread i found people want dagger available for archer because they don't have to change build for it. (like fist archer)

But i think the biggest obstacle here is, dagger and soul sphere was model related to tideborn.
Just see the model they has, em . . . i think tideborn model was more smoother than other 3 race.
b:surrender (help don't attack me)

So maybe the developer currently working for it, so all old model can wear those new weapon.
I guess just be patient. b:cry

Drsok - Harshlands

i dont c what much a diffrence that i would make if archer used daggers
when u had daggers on all u can do as an archer is wing shell and and attack that dosnt use a wep
they say that assasin dosnt need a bow which is true because they have stelth which makes it where u cant c or attack them arches have nothing like that in our skills all this would do is even the playing field for archers and assasins
and in pve is the only time i c and assasin use a bow beacuse they stealth alot in pvp

i think archers should be able to use daggers

and if u notice most of the people that dissagree are assasins because they dont want the archer to be like them even though they try to be like us

Moranine - Lost City

We are called Archers not Daggers, go DIAF.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Why would it be so "phenomenally overpowered"?

Assassins uses the same daggers + are dexbuild and they also have dagger devotion giving (im guessing at lvl 11) 75-90% more weapon attack. They have far more crit than archers after using wolf emblem. Assassins can also get a highly refined lunar bow at lvl 95, which im guessing most of the richer ones or alts, like mine, will do. Does that mean assassins are overpowered?

I guess the only aspect of "phenomenally overpowered" i can see is the versatility archers would gain with access to daggers. Could switch to bow for using metal on heavy armor + Sharptooth than back to daggers on robe/la. But our metal skills sucks anyway since they have fixed metal dmg and not %-in weapon dmg.

We would also never come close to the dmg assassin does with daggers, not just cuz of the mastery but sins daggers skills have some pretty ridiculous dmg mods. Combined with chill of the depth and triple spark some are kinda 1 shoots on many robe users. Skills you cant use as archer of course.

I think giving archers access to daggers might make them slightly more balanced endgame b:surrender.

The reason why an archer with daggers is overpowered is because of the fact that its a dex damage modified weapon. You could pwn from afar (like archers can now) with a bow and pwn at close range with higher damage than a hit/claw combo (which is supposedly already over powered as it is). At least with claws/fists, the damage is still modified by strength and not dex.

You may say that claws/fists are overpowered, and they are pretty fearsome, but every archer who stats for lunar claws or TT100 fists is sacrificing about 40 dex off their pure builds. If an archer could use daggers, they also would not have to restat-- they would maintain their high dex for accuracy & evade at close range, too.

Also, there is probably good reason why an assassin isn't given a third spark. If they were given a third one, they could demon spark for top 5 hits/sec with less than awesome end-game gear. Archers, however (and especially demon archers) benefit from the 500% spark and hit interval boosts.

You say that an assassin would still do more dmg with daggers? Not so. It is, in all likelihood similar to claws/fists, and that blazing arrow would be adding damage to your DPS in the form of magic damage. All points being equal, the dagger mastery boosts dagger weapon damage by 60%, dealing physical damage. A sage archer will be dealing 60% weapon damage per hit using blazing arrow while diversifying dmg type. Arguably, a demon archer would only do 50% weapon fire dmg per hit and could not match dmg/hit of an assassin.

So, the simple answer is... archer fists/claws are overpowered, and even more so at end-game with -hit interval modifiers. Daggers are even more overpowered because they have generally higher base dmg and are modified by dex.... putting them in a pure dex archer's hands would be way overpowered.

Quilue - Sanctuary

despite my ranged damage coming from dex, which i got 400+ of, i hit 500-700 on heavy chars (LAWL same as i hit on buffed wizards?) with normal attack, do you reasonably think i'll take out daggers when some heavy reaches me at melee range? i'd probably hit like 300 at max. even though a fist bm has less strength than you have dex, they're going to hit much harder because you're wearing light armor and they're wearing heavy armor. also, they have a lot more stuns than you do, they have weapons that berserk, they have harder hitting skills, while you just have normal attacks (switch to bow for stun perhaps? lol)

anyways i don't see how you can do anything with daggers unless you triple spark, in which case one wonders how you've been fighting a heavy and not using sparks at all, and how you're keeping the heavy stunned long enough without getting stunned/sealed in return.

As for third spark, i thought some sins in LC already have it. and i believe they need rank8 to hit 5/s.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Dreamweaver is home to a level 100 Sin, Ri$en, who sports rank 8 armor (note the $ in his name b:chuckle). He is at 5 hits/sec.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

despite my ranged damage coming from dex, which i got 400+ of, i hit 500-700 on heavy chars (LAWL same as i hit on buffed wizards?) with normal attack, do you reasonably think i'll take out daggers when some heavy reaches me at melee range? i'd probably hit like 300 at max. even though a fist bm has less strength than you have dex, they're going to hit much harder because you're wearing light armor and they're wearing heavy armor. also, they have a lot more stuns than you do, they have weapons that berserk, they have harder hitting skills, while you just have normal attacks (switch to bow for stun perhaps? lol)

anyways i don't see how you can do anything with daggers unless you triple spark, in which case one wonders how you've been fighting a heavy and not using sparks at all, and how you're keeping the heavy stunned long enough without getting stunned/sealed in return.

As for third spark, i thought some sins in LC already have it. and i believe they need rank8 to hit 5/s.

I'm just arguing against archers having daggers purely for DPS reasons, not specifically to PvP.

Quilue - Sanctuary

what is your definition of "overpowered" then? if it's not applicable in PvP, are you simply arguing that any class that deals the highest DPS is "overpowered"?

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

what is your definition of "overpowered" then? if it's not applicable in PvP, are you simply arguing that any class that deals the highest DPS is "overpowered"?

I'm suggesting that a properly equipped sage archer can out DD a BM and an assassin while having perma sage spark. Archers were designed to attack from afar and as much as I enjoy the advantages provided, I think that furthering the DPS gap in favor of an archer for an assassin weapon... is a bit ludicrous. But yea, I am looking at this as a DPS question only.

Quilue - Sanctuary

last time i checked, assassins have temporary crit buffs that grants higher crit damage 1/2 of the time, so i think that bit is a tossup.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

last time i checked, assassins have temporary crit buffs that grants higher crit damage 1/2 of the time, so i think that bit is a tossup.

Truth be told, I know archers better than I know assassins. If they do have insane crit buffs, then it'd help close the gap.