Demon Or Sage.. And Why? *For Barbs*

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

you were the one who derailed this thread to begin with. people on the veno forums have yelled at you for giving inaccurate and wrong info, quit posting it and reread this:


demon archer > sage
demon wiz > sage

in which are my opinion. for yall to go nuts off it makes you have a **** loose.

*cough* inaccurate? lol. As far as I know, LA venoes can gain better dps than the HA veno, better defense and she can spam leech life which will keep her healed. Attack rate increase, with LA build, HA doesn't have that in endgame. Crits. Makes a faster attack, faster crit, overall more damage and defense without sacrifice.

And as far as I know, demon wizards tank fire, earth and water spells much better than demon.

A sage wizard have a better chance of tanking magic attacks THAN the demon wizard, but demon wizards get access to more regen recovery and more physical DEF, and you call them better? More magic defense = better magic tanker. Once again you don't know how to play archer, go back to your BHs, oracles, WQ, CS and / or hyper exp to go with that fail... I mean pwnzor of yours waffle b:chuckle I know I never even reached level 60 yet with any char, but your more ridiculous than an arcane barb. b:laugh

inaccurate? lol. As far as I know, LA venoes can gain better dps than the HA veno

wrong. try again. solandri has done the math numerous times on the veno forum, HA veno's melee attacks out DDs an LA/HA casting. the gap widens considerably the more - interval you stack on them.

can spam leech life which will keep her healed.

leech is not able to be spammed nor does it heal enough to keep you alive. its a % chance to gain hp, it doesnt always work.

better defense

if you knew anything, youd know LA blows. LA at best in TT90 can have ~4-5k def fully buffed. HA veno can have 20k+ hell robes can have 10k +... god.

demon wizards tank fire, earth and water spells much better than demon.

lol...?

A sage wizard have a better chance of tanking magic attacks THAN the demon wizard, but demon wizards get access to more regen recovery and more physical DEF, and you call them better? More magic defense = better magic tanker. Once again you don't know how to play archer, go back to your BHs, oracles, WQ, CS and / or hyper exp to go with that fail... I mean pwnzor of yours waffle

I know I never even reached level 60 yet with any char

lycanthar said on page 9, which shouldve been aimed at yulk

I have a shocking reality for you - you absolutely cannot pass judgement on what culti is better or worse for any class until you get actual hands on experience with players that know these classes and have the skills you're standing on a soapbox advocating.

whereas, ive been to 95+ on a wizard on my-en, 95+ on a venomancer here, and one level away from another third 89+ cult... i may not be all knowing, but i sure as hell know alot more than this guy whos read a few things on ecatomb and pretends like he knows it all.

for the love of god, stop posting.

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Thought this tread was about barbs o.o

But lol as people saying its balanced. The demon archer is created purely for pvp, there is no balance in that area between sage. Demon has 12-14% more crit and 30% more attack speed when skill procs.
The demon path itself was created for pure pk, while sage is oriented towards pve/farming and TW. There is a reason why the few sage archers still around (most quit) have cash shopped rank 8 or similar, they cant compete in pvp otherwise since they lack crit and attack speed. The extra dmg you get as sage from mastery is not even noticeable unless you go +10 or higher. Just stupid arguing about it.

Its kinda the same for barbs. Demon barb is the most scary predator in the game in my opinion with massive crit and dmg. My 9X nub barb has more crit han my sage archer if his onslaught procs, its rather sad actually. Sage barb is better for challenging pve/farming/TW aspects of the game, they can still do well in pk since they're damn barbs with onslaught and armageddon and crazy hp, but its easier for demon since they have more pvp-oriented skills and so much more crit. Thats the case for all physical classes, Bms to. Dont know a single 99+ sage BM that doesn't regret his choice when it comes to pk.

Casters on the other hand are rather balanced in pvp, both demon and sage is amazing. Demon wizards kicks my ****, sage wizards kicks my **** - hai there 35k crit. Demon does have a few more benefits for solo pk, while sage is better for party-pvp and TW with raw dmg and lvl 11 ice dragon. Veno is also balanced demon/sage in pvp. I do think demon cleric is slightly better for solo pk, but a clerics usefulness in pvp is also about support, so it doesn't really matter.

Thank you for being so informative about sage vs. demon archers even when you went sage and regret it. You're one of the main people on forums that made me go demon on my archer. Now I'm gonna go demon on my barb. :P

_Barricade_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

how dose one go about becomeing a sage barb

get to level 89+ do the culti quest for sage. VOLA.

@ poster above

I'm going sage with my barb too, for obvious reasons. Better HP and defense, and I can lower magic attacks. But I won't say demon or sage barb better. Sage barbs enhance the strengths of the barb, but it also takes care of the flaws for normal barb's accuracy. Demons open the path of getting more damage from crits and better accuracy with attack speed. Axes have the worst DPS for normal attacks which demon barbs can do better with normal attacks after boosting crit.

I won't tell people which path to go on any char. Like Wafflefail, she does not have the right to tell people which path to go to. That will discourage people what they really want. If people want to choose sage for a class, let them, if demon, let them. I'm not like wafflefail to tell people, "go sage or you'll get 1 shotted" its not like they will be nerfed.

And no waffle, I don't know all of the game, but I witnessed a lot of things, so b:shutup

As far as i'm concerned the only thing that makes demon so overpowered is one skill, and its Beastial Onslaught. 35% increase to crit? Seriously? The other crit skills are very nice but this is the one that makes demon completely unbalanced.

I am sage and don't regret it. I don't pvp very often and its best for a catapuller. I wish the two cultivations were a little more balanced though.

Lycanthar - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sages are good at living. Demon's are good at killing. Where is the problem?

the problem is when someone choose his cultivation and then QQ about the other side that has better skills...b:shedtear


dont follow the mass, use your brain b:sin






and +1 at difference between culti...what would be the point to have 2 then ?

Why is there even archer discussion here? Archers are the worst pvp class past 9x even when they hit 10x and have an 8jun.

More barbs go sage than demon? I'd have to disagree. b:laugh Sage barbs are the minority in lost city. Sages better "living" abilities are no comparison to the raw killing power of demons at high level play. 10% more HP and like...2 or 3% more physical defense...I think our true form and shapeshifting could have been buffed a little further. Don't get me wrong they aren't BAD, but its not like people fighting you will say WOW this dude is hard to kill he must be SAGE! The difference is minimal at best. A slight increase to magic defense for sage shapeshifting would have been pretty unique and well deserved.

And the "pros" you list are not necessarily cons to the other path. Most of the sage pros you list, the demon versions are just as good, just have different purposes. I also want to say that as good as demon onslaught is, I love the sage version as well! 100% chance to lower evasion by 50% is really sweet. I usually do this before an armageddon, and it makes bloodbath not as essential.

rofl xD, hi there OP ^^
You are very much welcome, I speak on behalf of the ones who ACTUALLY helped you, and now they will probably close yet another Sage vs. Demon thread for many more to 'somehow' be created again.
But anywho~ good final choice, Sage path ftw ...and indeed, 1hr Sage BKI with Cleric squad buffs is totally awesome. b:dirtyb:victoryb:pleased

PS: I'm damn proud to be a 'carebear' PvE lovin' Barb on a PvP server, if it's wrong, I don't wanna be right xD

GohRaL - Sanctuary wrote: »

@Lycantar: i dont get ur division of PRO SKILL for each culti...

IMHO

Stomp of Beast King = DEMON WIN (100% hit chance)
Roar = DEMON WIN (100% dmg reflected)
Alacrity = DEMON WIN (less CD, more spam)
Surf = DEMON WIN (15% less speed Red. but chances to freeze)
Feral Reg. = DEMON WIN (35hp/sec is better than 10mp/sec)

with this count demon has 12PRO skill versus 8PRO skill of sage, with 5skill that can be EQUAL

Although I did mention in my post that I tried to compare the skills as objectively as possible without making considerations for pvp vs pve, here are my thoughts. Try to remember, we are discussing demon vs sage path and how the individual skills influence that decision. If the skills are really close to the same power level, then really they are equal for the sake of this conversation and shouldn't affect a player's decision to go one way or the other.


Stomp of the Beast King
-Demon: 100% accurate and +3 seconds to cooldown, pair this with demon bloodbath, is this useful...? Demon barb's don't traditionally have accuracy issues requiring "must hit" skills. Maybe against an archer that's purged you with lunar bow and you're right about to kill them... and mighty swing (the better choice obv) is in cooldown... meh. This is what we call a very situational usefulness. Even given the perfect circumstance, its value is still low.
-Sage: 1 out of every 4 hits should recover 25 chi and its spammable (only 3 second cooldown. This is pretty cool in pve. But is Stomp really a good pve skill to begin with? Again, situational usefulness that is none too impressive to begin with.

Verdict: EQUAL


Roar
-Demon: 100% physical damage reflect for 10 seconds. Yes, this is pretty good in pvp against melee sparks and other nukes (arma/heaven's flame if you see it coming... maybe). It's OK in pve for holding better aggro against large groups of phys mobs. Alas, I return to my above points, both of these points are very situational - let's call them statistically insignificant.
-Sage: 30% magic damage reduction for 10 seconds. Wiz channeling BIDS? Roar. Robe sparks on you? Roar. Stage 9 wave 4 aggro time? Roar. So, we know its good vs strong magic attacks pvp and hurtful magic mobs in pve. Right, pretty obvious... aaaaaand! Situational.

Verdict: EQUAL


Alacrity of the Beast
-Demon: -1 second cooldown. Ok, good in pvp for chasing down kiting classes and stopping them with a bit more regularity. Good for annoying casters with a bit more interrupt. No pve usefulnses that I can think of, really. Lvl 10 Alacrity gets you there, so... pretty unexciting skill overall.
-Sage: +800 damage. This is alright in pvp given that sages already have their base damage stacked high, so a little extra on top is nice. Then again, what sage is pvp'ing in tiger form? In pve, I guess that same extra damage is good for keeping better aggro. Again, boring.

Verdict: EQUAL


Surf Impact
-Demon: 25% chance to freeze for 3 seconds. This would obviously be ok in pvp if not for the low chance to process. 1 out of every 4 hits with an 8 second cooldown means you can reasonably expect to freeze your opponent for 3 seconds out of every 32 seconds. This is very underwhelming.
-Sage: +15% speed reduction (65% total). This is a small boost but its a constant - something sage barbs are known for over all. Demon's get splashy, low chance spike effects. Sages get reliable, constant effects. If the added effects for the two Surf's were greater, I would lean towards the sage version honestly. But seeing as they are both underwhelming, I deemed them insignificant for the sake of this conversation.

Verdict: EQUAL


Feral Regeneration
-Demon: +10 hp regeneration/sec. This is such a small boost you will barely notice it.
-Sage: +10 mp regeneration/sec. This is actually a bit useful in pve for conserving mp charm while meditating. Again, a very small difference. Barb's base mp regen is really, really terrible. I personally would rather have this version.

Verdict: EQUAL


So, there's a better explanation of why I put those skills down as non-factors. I have a feeling there was a lot of bias injected into your analysis, for the sake of informing other people I think it's better to take a more objective view.

b:victory

GohRaL - Sanctuary wrote: »

I dont know if u have read the big IMHO before the comparison but...



i dont care about objective comparison, i care about PVE and PVP when i look at EVERY SKILL

and i see big difference, both culti have powerfull aspects but there are HUGE difference between em...b:shocked



POWER is different that USEFULNESS



i never said that sage sucks and demon owns, but IMHO demon is more usefull than sage

and ofc im not arguing that any1 can prefer whatever he wants b:cute



and i know im only 77 b:sad

Ah, yes. I see the crux of the problem now.

I apologize, I didn't realize I was arguing with a 77 INACTIVE barb player about 89+ skills and their relevence. My bad. I'll deffer to your expert opinion in future posts.

/GTFO b:angry

First WaffleChan, now GohRaL O.o Lycanthar must have a magnet for the Sanctuary forum trolls. xD

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Wafflechan is phail, let her troll like an idiot and go "demon is better because they are 1337 and sage is failure" then when she steal arggo even more and dies a lot "OMG I hate PWI, archers really suck QQQQQQQ"

you're trolling with this post, dumb ****.

trolls are even more stupid