Demon Or Sage.. And Why? *For Barbs*

Yulk - Heavens Tear

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

you were the one who derailed this thread to begin with. people on the veno forums have yelled at you for giving inaccurate and wrong info, quit posting it and reread this:


demon archer > sage
demon wiz > sage

in which are my opinion. for yall to go nuts off it makes you have a **** loose.

*cough* inaccurate? lol. As far as I know, LA venoes can gain better dps than the HA veno, better defense and she can spam leech life which will keep her healed. Attack rate increase, with LA build, HA doesn't have that in endgame. Crits. Makes a faster attack, faster crit, overall more damage and defense without sacrifice.

And as far as I know, demon wizards tank fire, earth and water spells much better than demon.

A sage wizard have a better chance of tanking magic attacks THAN the demon wizard, but demon wizards get access to more regen recovery and more physical DEF, and you call them better? More magic defense = better magic tanker. Once again you don't know how to play archer, go back to your BHs, oracles, WQ, CS and / or hyper exp to go with that fail... I mean pwnzor of yours waffle b:chuckle I know I never even reached level 60 yet with any char, but your more ridiculous than an arcane barb. b:laugh

Lycanthar - Sanctuary

lol oh WaffleChan, I had no idea it was "you". Of course I know the low lvl alts are obviously cowardly high lvls, but I never would have never guessed in this case. I suppose everything is clear in hindsight. b:chuckle

I have a funny coincidence that ties in with our post-forum flame war pm convo last night and also with a recent post in this thread. This morning before I left for work I checked out west gate and found Ryamika and some other regi's hanging around ganking on n00bs.

I asked him/her for 1v1 and he dropped me in about 4 seconds, rofl. They're the only archer that's beat me (other than Jizzeled) in a long, long time.

I charged, they stunned > ST > 3 spark > 6k crit + 7k crit near my charm tick. b:sad

<excuses>I was sleepy and used no defensive measures... really wasn't expecting those numbers, lol. Didn't do a gear check before we started, had no time before I had to run out the door. I want another go at it, QQ.</excuses>

P.S. - Like I said to you last night in pm, go get your big bad veno unbanned so I can tear it to pieces. When we fought your char was stacked and mine was average :P b:dirtyb:victory

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

inaccurate? lol. As far as I know, LA venoes can gain better dps than the HA veno

wrong. try again. solandri has done the math numerous times on the veno forum, HA veno's melee attacks out DDs an LA/HA casting. the gap widens considerably the more - interval you stack on them.

can spam leech life which will keep her healed.

leech is not able to be spammed nor does it heal enough to keep you alive. its a % chance to gain hp, it doesnt always work.

better defense

if you knew anything, youd know LA blows. LA at best in TT90 can have ~4-5k def fully buffed. HA veno can have 20k+ hell robes can have 10k +... god.

demon wizards tank fire, earth and water spells much better than demon.

lol...?

A sage wizard have a better chance of tanking magic attacks THAN the demon wizard, but demon wizards get access to more regen recovery and more physical DEF, and you call them better? More magic defense = better magic tanker. Once again you don't know how to play archer, go back to your BHs, oracles, WQ, CS and / or hyper exp to go with that fail... I mean pwnzor of yours waffle

I know I never even reached level 60 yet with any char

lycanthar said on page 9, which shouldve been aimed at yulk

I have a shocking reality for you - you absolutely cannot pass judgement on what culti is better or worse for any class until you get actual hands on experience with players that know these classes and have the skills you're standing on a soapbox advocating.

whereas, ive been to 95+ on a wizard on my-en, 95+ on a venomancer here, and one level away from another third 89+ cult... i may not be all knowing, but i sure as hell know alot more than this guy whos read a few things on ecatomb and pretends like he knows it all.

for the love of god, stop posting.

TigerLily - Lost City

Thought this tread was about barbs o.o

But lol as people saying its balanced. The demon archer is created purely for pvp, there is no balance in that area between sage. Demon has 12-14% more crit and 30% more attack speed when skill procs.
The demon path itself was created for pure pk, while sage is oriented towards pve/farming and TW. There is a reason why the few sage archers still around (most quit) have cash shopped rank 8 or similar, they cant compete in pvp otherwise since they lack crit and attack speed. The extra dmg you get as sage from mastery is not even noticeable unless you go +10 or higher. Just stupid arguing about it.

Its kinda the same for barbs. Demon barb is the most scary predator in the game in my opinion with massive crit and dmg. My 9X nub barb has more crit han my sage archer if his onslaught procs, its rather sad actually. Sage barb is better for challenging pve/farming/TW aspects of the game, they can still do well in pk since they're damn barbs with onslaught and armageddon and crazy hp, but its easier for demon since they have more pvp-oriented skills and so much more crit. Thats the case for all physical classes, Bms to. Dont know a single 99+ sage BM that doesn't regret his choice when it comes to pk.

Casters on the other hand are rather balanced in pvp, both demon and sage is amazing. Demon wizards kicks my ****, sage wizards kicks my **** - hai there 35k crit. Demon does have a few more benefits for solo pk, while sage is better for party-pvp and TW with raw dmg and lvl 11 ice dragon. Veno is also balanced demon/sage in pvp. I do think demon cleric is slightly better for solo pk, but a clerics usefulness in pvp is also about support, so it doesn't really matter.

Diesel - Heavens Tear

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Thought this tread was about barbs o.o

But lol as people saying its balanced. The demon archer is created purely for pvp, there is no balance in that area between sage. Demon has 12-14% more crit and 30% more attack speed when skill procs.
The demon path itself was created for pure pk, while sage is oriented towards pve/farming and TW. There is a reason why the few sage archers still around (most quit) have cash shopped rank 8 or similar, they cant compete in pvp otherwise since they lack crit and attack speed. The extra dmg you get as sage from mastery is not even noticeable unless you go +10 or higher. Just stupid arguing about it.

Its kinda the same for barbs. Demon barb is the most scary predator in the game in my opinion with massive crit and dmg. My 9X nub barb has more crit han my sage archer if his onslaught procs, its rather sad actually. Sage barb is better for challenging pve/farming/TW aspects of the game, they can still do well in pk since they're damn barbs with onslaught and armageddon and crazy hp, but its easier for demon since they have more pvp-oriented skills and so much more crit. Thats the case for all physical classes, Bms to. Dont know a single 99+ sage BM that doesn't regret his choice when it comes to pk.

Casters on the other hand are rather balanced in pvp, both demon and sage is amazing. Demon wizards kicks my ****, sage wizards kicks my **** - hai there 35k crit. Demon does have a few more benefits for solo pk, while sage is better for party-pvp and TW with raw dmg and lvl 11 ice dragon. Veno is also balanced demon/sage in pvp. I do think demon cleric is slightly better for solo pk, but a clerics usefulness in pvp is also about support, so it doesn't really matter.

Thank you for being so informative about sage vs. demon archers even when you went sage and regret it. You're one of the main people on forums that made me go demon on my archer. Now I'm gonna go demon on my barb. :P

_Barricade_ - Dreamweaver

how dose one go about becomeing a sage barb

Cookiecutter - Harshlands

_Barricade_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

how dose one go about becomeing a sage barb

get to level 89+ do the culti quest for sage. VOLA.

GrEEwland - Lost City

go sage... -> in my opinion you shouldn't balance things (demon - makes att stronger and barbs aren't much of a power classes), you should point the good attributes @ barb... i went sage -> spark is working very fine, am doin +50 chi every time i can... have much much HP ... it's in every case far better than demon ... just take gx-s (make your own build or follow eq. req. build) and killllllll... i bet i could kill my own lvl demon barb b:chuckle

Yulk - Heavens Tear

@ poster above

I'm going sage with my barb too, for obvious reasons. Better HP and defense, and I can lower magic attacks. But I won't say demon or sage barb better. Sage barbs enhance the strengths of the barb, but it also takes care of the flaws for normal barb's accuracy. Demons open the path of getting more damage from crits and better accuracy with attack speed. Axes have the worst DPS for normal attacks which demon barbs can do better with normal attacks after boosting crit.

I won't tell people which path to go on any char. Like Wafflefail, she does not have the right to tell people which path to go to. That will discourage people what they really want. If people want to choose sage for a class, let them, if demon, let them. I'm not like wafflefail to tell people, "go sage or you'll get 1 shotted" its not like they will be nerfed.

And no waffle, I don't know all of the game, but I witnessed a lot of things, so b:shutup

Lycanthar - Sanctuary

GrEEwland - Lost City wrote: »

go sage... -> in my opinion you shouldn't balance things (demon - makes att stronger and barbs aren't much of a power classes), you should point the good attributes @ barb... i went sage -> spark is working very fine, am doin +50 chi every time i can... have much much HP ... it's in every case far better than demon ... just take gx-s (make your own build or follow eq. req. build) and killllllll... i bet i could kill my own lvl demon barb b:chuckle

The only thing I fear from a sage barb is invoke the spirit spam. b:chuckle

Feral_Wrath - Lost City

As far as i'm concerned the only thing that makes demon so overpowered is one skill, and its Beastial Onslaught. 35% increase to crit? Seriously? The other crit skills are very nice but this is the one that makes demon completely unbalanced.

I am sage and don't regret it. I don't pvp very often and its best for a catapuller. I wish the two cultivations were a little more balanced though.

Lycanthar - Sanctuary

Feral_Wrath - Lost City wrote: »

As far as i'm concerned the only thing that makes demon so overpowered is one skill, and its Beastial Onslaught. 35% increase to crit? Seriously? The other crit skills are very nice but this is the one that makes demon completely unbalanced.

I am sage and don't regret it. I don't pvp very often and its best for a catapuller. I wish the two cultivations were a little more balanced though.

Self-defeating post. The culti's are balanced if you understand what they were balanced for.

Demon = PVP
Sage = PVE

What would make them more balanced? Giving sage more crit? Taking crit away from demon?

Maybe because sages get more hp, pdef and wep atk, demon's should too. Or maybe sages should get less to be more balanced with demons? Do you see where this is going?

Not much point in having 2 paths if they both lead to the same place.

Sages are good at living. Demon's are good at killing. Where is the problem?

I won't argue that Demon Onslaught isn't broken, it's completely insane. It's an 11/10 on the pwnage scale kind of skill. Like Sage BIDS, for example. Sage barbs don't have any single skill that is that good, but in my opinion you guys have a number of 10/10 skills that demon's don't to make up for it.

SAGE PROS:
-Mighty Swing
-Trueform
-Shapeshifting Intensity
-Strength of Titans
-Axe & Hammer Mastery
-Penetrate Armor
-Swell
-Firestorm
-Alacrity of the Beast
-Surf Impact

DEMON PROS:
-Beastial Onslaught
-Flesh Ream
-Bloodbath
-Poison Fang
-Beast King's Inspiration
-Sunder
-Devour

EQUAL:
-Stomp of the Beast King
-Garotte
-Feral Regeneration
-Slam
-Armageddon
-Frighten
-Roar
-Beastial Rage

I see 10 reasons to go sage and only 7 to go demon. Why do you think most barbs go sage?

Of course there are many more factors and all the evaluations I just made were done as ambiguously as possible, without thinking of pvp/pve considerations. Just abstract comparison. If you disagree with any of it please let me know, but the point I'm trying to make is that sages have more quality skills than demons do.

Maybe the sheer pwnage of Onslaught makes it equal, but it certainly doesn't tilt anything in favour of the demon path imho.

I chose demon against most people's advice for a few reasons. At the time, I was growing bored with pve and wanted to pvp more, but didn't want to invest the time in rerolling a different class. At the time, most people on Sanctuary thought demon barbs were fails so I wanted the challenge, and I don't mind being a black sheep.

Not to mention (and this has been mentioned numerous times before) going demon opens up many more tools and play styles for both pvp and pve than sage does.

pk as sage = lol I have 1,000,000 hp and a nuke button. gg.
pk as demon = lol I have that too and a hundred other things that can kill you.

pve as sage = same old ****, it just gets easier
pve as demon = hybrid tanking/dd style available, for example I keep aggro with dps, not with aggro skills...

GohRaL - Sanctuary

Lycanthar - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sages are good at living. Demon's are good at killing. Where is the problem?

the problem is when someone choose his cultivation and then QQ about the other side that has better skills...b:shedtear


dont follow the mass, use your brain b:sin






and +1 at difference between culti...what would be the point to have 2 then ?

Redmenace - Heavens Tear

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

because i can post wherever i want

Natural Arrogance?

DestroyTokyo - Lost City

Why is there even archer discussion here? Archers are the worst pvp class past 9x even when they hit 10x and have an 8jun.

Skippy - Dreamweaver

every single reply i read brings my moods down even more,,, to start of with, we are not archers, or wizards so stop thad .____.

alrighty il explain from my point of vieuw.

im a sage barb, i PK couse i got nothing else more to do at my lvl, and i have no single regret thad i went sage. my damage is awesome deu to titans and my mastery at sage. and about crits,,, ah well. im not an archer and my crit is 15% atm.

if you ask me,, you cant go wrong

if you are in a pve server it doesnt matter AT all what path you choose, if peaple run out of a charm they will go bleu and buy a new 1 and go white again, in a pvp server haha and not every1 in their is charmed so,,, they cant go bleu. from my point of vieuw a sage barb with a lot of survive index in a pvp server can stand out from demons, besides if ya see a demon barb pumping his crit rate wich onely lasts 8 sec tops for the max critrate,,, stun .___. run.____. solid shield, or what ever defence stragedy you have

and,,, the lack in 50% less dammage,,, ah well,, the 100% weapon dammage mastery and 50% weapon dammage titans and the 40% wood dammage buff really make up for thad 1.
(btw 50% doesnt mean the total dammage is cutted by half ^.~)

and when i tank i mostly tank in human form, i dont need flesh ream but seems like you all say my DPS is low, and WTH is up with you and your 1% extra phys bonus on shapeshifting intesity. couse mine changes to 5% and thad is a lot.

time to make it all clear for ya

money talks<----

if ya get the awesomeO skills for either demon or sage, with the right equipment,, like TT 99, you will just own bigtime,, no questioning bout being sage or demon on thad.

and yes demon spark is stronger then the sage, but i rather deal a constand higher ammount of dammage then being a bit stronger for just 14 sec in my spark.

and we are still melee if they see thad crit rate buff icon appear they will run from ya anyway in PK.

just read all the skills for sage and demon, and choose what you like best.

more crits, or overal higher damage

Feral_Wrath - Lost City

More barbs go sage than demon? I'd have to disagree. b:laugh Sage barbs are the minority in lost city. Sages better "living" abilities are no comparison to the raw killing power of demons at high level play. 10% more HP and like...2 or 3% more physical defense...I think our true form and shapeshifting could have been buffed a little further. Don't get me wrong they aren't BAD, but its not like people fighting you will say WOW this dude is hard to kill he must be SAGE! The difference is minimal at best. A slight increase to magic defense for sage shapeshifting would have been pretty unique and well deserved.

And the "pros" you list are not necessarily cons to the other path. Most of the sage pros you list, the demon versions are just as good, just have different purposes. I also want to say that as good as demon onslaught is, I love the sage version as well! 100% chance to lower evasion by 50% is really sweet. I usually do this before an armageddon, and it makes bloodbath not as essential.

Skippy - Dreamweaver

yep yep, i know what demon barbs can do, just saying its easy to bypass them, and it is for anny class whatsoever

and right now on this server the onely class thad takes me down easely are fist BMs with all interval peaces with +7 - +10 fist/claws hitting 3.00 regular attacks.

the rest is cake and some are troublesome

and like i said,,, money talks, get your stuff 2gether and it doesnt matter what path you have chosen

VICLuka - Heavens Tear

Well Thank you all for the Kind Words, I think im going to go Sage b:thanks
im never going to get the Books i want... so with the books i got.. there better for sage I THINK
b:thanks Thank You All b:thanks

VICLuka - Heavens Tear

o and personally.. Sage Beast Kings is Better ^^b:cute

ZoanoAce - Lost City

rofl xD, hi there OP ^^
You are very much welcome, I speak on behalf of the ones who ACTUALLY helped you, and now they will probably close yet another Sage vs. Demon thread for many more to 'somehow' be created again.
But anywho~ good final choice, Sage path ftw ...and indeed, 1hr Sage BKI with Cleric squad buffs is totally awesome. b:dirtyb:victoryb:pleased

PS: I'm damn proud to be a 'carebear' PvE lovin' Barb on a PvP server, if it's wrong, I don't wanna be right xD

GohRaL - Sanctuary

Is really that hard to activate a skill every 30 minutes ? b:bored lazy



and you SAGES, that always brag about chi, would prefer 1hour duration (cuz ur lazy) instead of more CHI ? this makes me b:chuckle






@Lycantar: i dont get ur division of PRO SKILL for each culti...

IMHO

Stomp of Beast King = DEMON WIN (100% hit chance)

Roar = DEMON WIN (100% dmg reflected)

Alacrity = DEMON WIN (less CD, more spam)

Surf = DEMON WIN (15% less speed Red. but chances to freeze)

Feral Reg. = DEMON WIN (35hp/sec is better than 10mp/sec)



with this count demon has 12PRO skill versus 8PRO skill of sage, with 5skill that can be EQUAL

Lycanthar - Sanctuary

GohRaL - Sanctuary wrote: »

@Lycantar: i dont get ur division of PRO SKILL for each culti...

IMHO

Stomp of Beast King = DEMON WIN (100% hit chance)
Roar = DEMON WIN (100% dmg reflected)
Alacrity = DEMON WIN (less CD, more spam)
Surf = DEMON WIN (15% less speed Red. but chances to freeze)
Feral Reg. = DEMON WIN (35hp/sec is better than 10mp/sec)

with this count demon has 12PRO skill versus 8PRO skill of sage, with 5skill that can be EQUAL

Although I did mention in my post that I tried to compare the skills as objectively as possible without making considerations for pvp vs pve, here are my thoughts. Try to remember, we are discussing demon vs sage path and how the individual skills influence that decision. If the skills are really close to the same power level, then really they are equal for the sake of this conversation and shouldn't affect a player's decision to go one way or the other.


Stomp of the Beast King
-Demon: 100% accurate and +3 seconds to cooldown, pair this with demon bloodbath, is this useful...? Demon barb's don't traditionally have accuracy issues requiring "must hit" skills. Maybe against an archer that's purged you with lunar bow and you're right about to kill them... and mighty swing (the better choice obv) is in cooldown... meh. This is what we call a very situational usefulness. Even given the perfect circumstance, its value is still low.
-Sage: 1 out of every 4 hits should recover 25 chi and its spammable (only 3 second cooldown. This is pretty cool in pve. But is Stomp really a good pve skill to begin with? Again, situational usefulness that is none too impressive to begin with.

Verdict: EQUAL


Roar
-Demon: 100% physical damage reflect for 10 seconds. Yes, this is pretty good in pvp against melee sparks and other nukes (arma/heaven's flame if you see it coming... maybe). It's OK in pve for holding better aggro against large groups of phys mobs. Alas, I return to my above points, both of these points are very situational - let's call them statistically insignificant.
-Sage: 30% magic damage reduction for 10 seconds. Wiz channeling BIDS? Roar. Robe sparks on you? Roar. Stage 9 wave 4 aggro time? Roar. So, we know its good vs strong magic attacks pvp and hurtful magic mobs in pve. Right, pretty obvious... aaaaaand! Situational.

Verdict: EQUAL


Alacrity of the Beast
-Demon: -1 second cooldown. Ok, good in pvp for chasing down kiting classes and stopping them with a bit more regularity. Good for annoying casters with a bit more interrupt. No pve usefulnses that I can think of, really. Lvl 10 Alacrity gets you there, so... pretty unexciting skill overall.
-Sage: +800 damage. This is alright in pvp given that sages already have their base damage stacked high, so a little extra on top is nice. Then again, what sage is pvp'ing in tiger form? In pve, I guess that same extra damage is good for keeping better aggro. Again, boring.

Verdict: EQUAL


Surf Impact
-Demon: 25% chance to freeze for 3 seconds. This would obviously be ok in pvp if not for the low chance to process. 1 out of every 4 hits with an 8 second cooldown means you can reasonably expect to freeze your opponent for 3 seconds out of every 32 seconds. This is very underwhelming.
-Sage: +15% speed reduction (65% total). This is a small boost but its a constant - something sage barbs are known for over all. Demon's get splashy, low chance spike effects. Sages get reliable, constant effects. If the added effects for the two Surf's were greater, I would lean towards the sage version honestly. But seeing as they are both underwhelming, I deemed them insignificant for the sake of this conversation.

Verdict: EQUAL


Feral Regeneration
-Demon: +10 hp regeneration/sec. This is such a small boost you will barely notice it.
-Sage: +10 mp regeneration/sec. This is actually a bit useful in pve for conserving mp charm while meditating. Again, a very small difference. Barb's base mp regen is really, really terrible. I personally would rather have this version.

Verdict: EQUAL


So, there's a better explanation of why I put those skills down as non-factors. I have a feeling there was a lot of bias injected into your analysis, for the sake of informing other people I think it's better to take a more objective view.

b:victory

GohRaL - Sanctuary

I dont know if u have read the big IMHO before the comparison but...



i dont care about objective comparison, i care about PVE and PVP when i look at EVERY SKILL

and i see big difference, both culti have powerfull aspects but there are HUGE difference between em...b:shocked



POWER is different that USEFULNESS



i never said that sage sucks and demon owns, but IMHO demon is more usefull than sage

and ofc im not arguing that any1 can prefer whatever he wants b:cute



and i know im only 77 b:sad

Lycanthar - Sanctuary

GohRaL - Sanctuary wrote: »

I dont know if u have read the big IMHO before the comparison but...



i dont care about objective comparison, i care about PVE and PVP when i look at EVERY SKILL

and i see big difference, both culti have powerfull aspects but there are HUGE difference between em...b:shocked



POWER is different that USEFULNESS



i never said that sage sucks and demon owns, but IMHO demon is more usefull than sage

and ofc im not arguing that any1 can prefer whatever he wants b:cute



and i know im only 77 b:sad

Ah, yes. I see the crux of the problem now.

I apologize, I didn't realize I was arguing with a 77 INACTIVE barb player about 89+ skills and their relevence. My bad. I'll deffer to your expert opinion in future posts.

/GTFO b:angry

GohRaL - Sanctuary

ahahahah...


well after my kind answer your e-peen got irritated ?





dont act like a god just cuz you are 100, it doesnt mean nothing...just that you play longer than me or opposite ur a lifeless noob/ oracler b:bye





you rant on me that i dont know nothing of 89+ skill, but from what i see ecatomb show very precise information on skills effect and uses


I know as anyone that is going to choose between a culti, im informed since i have the chance, i knew high barb with i squad with and had lots of talk

so i dont really have to HIT ON THE LEVEL 11 SKILL BUTTON to know what are the effects


before choosing a cultivation i make some comparison on the info all the elder have post, back that time when i joined and after every changes...btw im inactive since halloween and isnt that different...



if your gonna rant on every1 preference just cuz those differs that yours, than i think you probably should stop to think about you as a god



and to return to the OP, the question was WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE THIS BESIDE THAT ? no1 ask you to do the objective comparison as homework

ZoanoAce - Lost City

First WaffleChan, now GohRaL O.o Lycanthar must have a magnet for the Sanctuary forum trolls. xD

Yulk - Heavens Tear

ZoanoAce - Lost City wrote: »

First WaffleChan, now GohRaL O.o Lycanthar must have a magnet for the Sanctuary forum trolls. xD

Wafflechan is phail, let her troll like an idiot and go "demon is better because they are 1337 and sage is failure" then when she steal arggo even more and dies a lot "OMG I hate PWI, archers really suck QQQQQQQ"

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Wafflechan is phail, let her troll like an idiot and go "demon is better because they are 1337 and sage is failure" then when she steal arggo even more and dies a lot "OMG I hate PWI, archers really suck QQQQQQQ"

you're trolling with this post, dumb ****.

trolls are even more stupid

ZoanoAce - Lost City

Just had to call her out, eh Yulk xD
*On Topic*
Well Lycanthar was 1 of the few who contributed useful info for both Sage and Demon path, and DID NOT emphazize too much on which one is better overall, only to his preference, where I share the same sentiments