Bash versus Roar on Herc

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Reflect doesn't make a difference because both the Bash herc and the Roar herc get it.

Reflect does make a difference, because it does generate the primary source of threat.

I don't know how I can make it any clearer. Let me quote myself:

The Bash herc's aggro capacity is: normal_damage + reflect + bash_damage + bash_threat
The Roar herc's aggro capacity is: normal_damage + reflect

We're trying to compare the difference in the aggro-holding ability of these two hypothetical hercs. Both of them do normal_damage, so normal_damage does not make any difference. Both of them have reflect, so reflect does not make any difference. The only factors which make a difference in their aggro-holding ability are bash_damage and bash_threat, because one herc has them and the other doesn't.

When you're comparing how tall two people are, if both of them are standing on a 1 meter table (reflect damage), it does not change the difference in their height.

Roar will absolutely re-take aggro when it is used. Bash will not. Threat will be generated from the boss as it's being hit by the herc and taking reflect damage.

Bash will eventually retake aggro with it's initial damage + threat, but the reflect damage will not affect threat until the herc gains aggro.

Am I wrong in this much?

This is correct. But the situations when they occur are very different. At the damage levels where the Roar herc will have just lost barely aggro and need to retake it, the Bash herc would never have lost aggro in the first place.

If you place a rock on the taller person's head, it will rest there comfortably. If you place the rock at the same height but over the shorter person's head, it will fall and probably crack his skull.

When the overall dps of the DD squad exceeds what even the Herc with Bash will allow for, the time it takes the herc to regain aggro is longer. It will also take longer for reflect threat to build up because the reflect threat won't build up until *after* the herc regains aggro.

Please explain how I am wrong here....

Because you're thinking only of the resulting situation, and not considering what led up to that situation. If you use my numbers, for the situation you've described to occur to the Bash herc, the DDer would had to have been doing ~4.5k DPS against the Bash herc.

If the DDer were doing ~4.5k DPS against the Roar herc, not only would the Roar herc have lost aggro, it would have used Roar to regain aggro, and lost it again long before Roar's cooldown is up. Basically, if you use the numbers I figured:

Max damage of each DDer with a Roar herc: ~3k DPS
Point where DDer steals aggro from a Roar herc: ~3.5k DPS
Max damage of each DDer with a Bash herc: ~4k DPS
Point where DDer steals aggro from a Bash herc: ~4.5k DPS

Do you see what I'm saying? If the DDer can maintain 4k DPS, he would be constantly stealing aggro from the Roar herc. Yet with the DDer doing the same DPS, the Bash herc never loses aggro.

By the time you crank up the DDer to 4.5k DPS and he starts to steal aggro from the Bash herc, it's pretty much a lost cause for the Roar herc. The Roar herc can momentarily get aggro back with Roar, but the DDer so out-strips its ability to generate aggro that it quickly loses aggro again.

Maybe you're thinking of barb Roar, which as best as I can tell generates a huge amount of aggro, maybe about 50k damage worth. Pet Roar is not like that. It only generates a paltry 5k-6k damage worth of aggro. Any high level DDer will be able to surpass that with just one or two hits. So long after the DPS level where the Roar herc is unable to keep aggro and thus becomes useless as a tank, the Bash herc is still able to keep aggro.

You would also need to factor (which I think would be pretty difficult considering it's a very situational occurrence) the time a DD party would need to stop DD and wait for the herc to retain aggro before they can commence attacking. The herc with Roar would immediately steal aggro and from that point would be generating reflect threat. With Bash, the threat slowly increases until aggro is retaken. At that point reflect threat starts adding in while the party must still wait a bit even after having waited for Bash to regain aggro.

Correct?

As I've explained several times, the Roar herc losing aggro and the Bash herc losing aggro are not equivalent situations. It happens at a much lower DD damage level for the Roar herc. At 3.5k DPS, the Roar herc would be losing aggro necessitating the DDers pause slightly while it gets aggro back. But at 3.5k DPS, the Bash herc never loses aggro.

At 4.5k DPS where the Bash herc starts to lose aggro, the Roar herc would be so overwhelmed that if the DDers were maintaining 4.5k DPS you're pretty much looking at a party wipe.

And that works fine in theory, but the time to revive a pet, summon another one, then stow it and resummon herc, then rebuff it, send to attack... but you might not have time to do all this before a boss cycles through every target and wipes out.

That's why I said if a secondary tank has taken over. Typically, in the time it takes me to revive, resummon, and rebuff my herc, the boss can wipe out pretty much the whole party. So the only way you're going to escape that situation with either a Roar or Bash herc is if a secondary tank is able to hold or kite the boss til I have the herc revived and resummoned. And if they're able to do that, then they can do it for an extra 5 seconds while I bring out the other pet to Roar.

So would it be possible for a herc (without blessing of the pack) to tank a wb like soul hunter using ranged attacks? Ive seen a veno soloing him with an eldergoth warrior

what about magic attacks vs. bash?

where is stated that bash is special aggro skill, it keeps aggro because of higher hit (well pets dont need to outdmage you anyway) and other magic skills are excactly same skill description as bash. Taking wood attack skill would make herc also keep aggro better on earth bosses? I havent tested it myself, maybe someone has.Do bash hold aggro better than magic attack ones.

Also what about Shriek for herc? Yes its useless 99% times, but when u kill bosses with aoe or channeling hard hitters like wurlord, it helps alot to solo them.

Ana_I - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also what about Shriek for herc? Yes its useless 99% times, but when u kill bosses with aoe or channeling hard hitters like wurlord, it helps alot to solo them.

I was thinking about that but I didnt test it yet on herc because... I had a magmite in the past with this skill and I used often at drum for example. When I clicked this skill (not on auto), sometimes pet still took his time to finish his last hit or another. Sometimes was doing shriek after boss casted his spell. My guess is that shriek would be better to control on herc since pet react faster (0.8 atk speed) than magmite.

Why is this still being discussed?
Bash > Roar

If you don't agree with the people who say bash is better, then use roar on your herc :P

Mystic-Night - Heavens Tear wrote: »

^wrong. attack speed increases for my nix even if my nix misses stun.

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This is where he was back on page three. And I must say Mystic that avatar doesn't seem to do you justice just lacks something.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

if you are lvl 101 with a +11 weapon and don't know how control your damages yet, what power leveling service have you been using?

I have seen archers have problems dealing with aggro when they switched from some random weapon to a blinding radiance.

I can imagine people having similar problems when they get a +11 weapon.

well good that most bosses are already known time when they channel, specially tough ones like wurlord.But if genies can interrupt, i really see no point in using 1 herc skill spot on shriek.But as i know nothing about Genies, what skills does that? I know genie is getting way off topic already (not that shriek was not, but i feel this as topic to ones not believing bash is best)

the problem of what skill give to herc was between bash and flesh ream, not bash and roar xD
bash vs roar was an old noob question. Anyway, the best aggro/dd skill for herc is bash, for 8seconds cooldown and 200% of his atk when maxed.