Bash versus Roar on Herc

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

There is a place for pounce and Roar on a herc, it all depends on what role your character plays.

If you are the "second veno" most of the time, meaning, most of the time you are not the highest level veno in the party, than it makes sense to have pounce, or roar on your herc. The highest level herc will be tanking the boss, which makes your herc the backup, and adds pick-up pet. Roar can insure if the main tank gets killed, that your herc will regain aggro before a party whipe. Similar way, if there are adds or roaming mobs, having pounce or roar on the herc makes it easier to keep squishes safe, and prevent party wipes if something happens.

So bash being better than pounce or roar is true if your herc is the main tank, in order circumstances, having pounce or roar could be a far better decision. If you are a HA veno that always fights in fox form, even having pierce on the herc could be better than bash, since it would increase both the herc's damage and the venos damage.

It all comes down to playing styles.

JoyfulPets - Raging Tide

Dioica - Sanctuary wrote: »

Personally, I am not convinced that Bash is better than Pounce for anything that matters.

Bash has an eight second cooldown so if you are grinding on easy monsters you can pull aggro on seven of them in a minute. But easy monsters are easy, and if you bought a herc only for easy monsters, I am jealous of your pocketbook and I do not want to talk with you.

b:chuckle

So... when I researched this pounce vs. bash issue, I saw people claiming that pounce is worthless on bosses, that because bosses can not be stunned. But when a herc attacks a boss he still gets that white "quicked attack" icon, and I like ignoring people when I can see their claims were false.

Another suggestion has been that since bash has higher overall DPS than Pounce that bash holds aggro better than Pounce. Bash gives damage equivalent to 7.5 extra herc attacks in a minute where Pounce gives 3-ish extra herc attacks in a minute. But I do not know how long bash takes and it could easily also be preventing herc attacks which would otherwise have happened.

Of course, bash also generates aggro beyond pure DPS. But, so does Pounce. I feel also that its attack rate increase when opening combat factors significantly in a monster's aggro calculations.

I have seen people complaining that hercs with pounce have problems with monsters that use ranged attacks, but hercs with bash also have problems holding aggro against them.

Meanwhile, pounce works great when luring, since it usually interrupts the attack which would otherwise hit me, which saves me a lot of healing potions and sometimes keeps me alive.

I imagine that in some cases bash might be superior to pounce but I would not discard a legendary skill for an ordinary skill based on the opinion of people that show their ignorance about how that legendary skill works.

BRAVO!!!! I have a herc and will never replace its pounce. It works perfectly fine and i have no problems tanking bosses. b:pleasedb:pleased

Chobsi - Heavens Tear

[Dioica - Sanctuary;6776861]Personally, I am not convinced that Bash is better than Pounce for anything that matters.

Look at Solandri's comparison, he put a link in the thread.

Bash has an eight second cooldown so if you are grinding on easy monsters you can pull aggro on seven of them in a minute. But easy monsters are easy, and if you bought a herc only for easy monsters, I am jealous of your pocketbook and I do not want to talk with you.

And Pounce has a longer cooldown so?...

Another suggestion has been that since bash has higher overall DPS than Pounce that bash holds aggro better than Pounce. Bash gives damage equivalent to 7.5 extra herc attacks in a minute where Pounce gives 3-ish extra herc attacks in a minute. But I do not know how long bash takes and it could easily also be preventing herc attacks which would otherwise have happened.

It would have to prevent 4.5 herc attacks to make pounce worth it, which it doesn't.

I have seen people complaining that hercs with pounce have problems with monsters that use ranged attacks, but hercs with bash also have problems holding aggro against them.

I cant confirm on this but I've heard that if you stun a mob that kites it will start to run again which can make issues in BH79, OHT Grinding, Eden, etc.

Meanwhile, pounce works great when luring, since it usually interrupts the attack which would otherwise hit me, which saves me a lot of healing potions and sometimes keeps me alive.

Metabollic Boost?

I imagine that in some cases bash might be superior to pounce but I would not discard a legendary skill for an ordinary skill based on the opinion of people that show their ignorance about how that legendary skill works.

People know how it works, but since you only have one spot, unless you wanna take away buffs. You have to take off pounce to make your herc much more efficient.

Aniella - Harshlands

put in flash ream it do dg + take dgover time. its pk skills..but if y read under the skills..you can see that it do somthing else.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There is a place for pounce and Roar on a herc, it all depends on what role your character plays.

If you are the "second veno" most of the time, meaning, most of the time you are not the highest level veno in the party, than it makes sense to have pounce, or roar on your herc. The highest level herc will be tanking the boss, which makes your herc the backup, and adds pick-up pet. Roar can insure if the main tank gets killed, that your herc will regain aggro before a party whipe. Similar way, if there are adds or roaming mobs, having pounce or roar on the herc makes it easier to keep squishes safe, and prevent party wipes if something happens.

So bash being better than pounce or roar is true if your herc is the main tank, in order circumstances, having pounce or roar could be a far better decision. If you are a HA veno that always fights in fox form, even having pierce on the herc could be better than bash, since it would increase both the herc's damage and the venos damage.

It all comes down to playing styles.

severely nerfing your own ablitities and the usefulness of a $200 dollar pet, for the occasional *oh ****!* situation, is probably not a great idea. if you want a back up, *oh ****!* pet, its a lot more economical to use the armored bear, which has close to the same attack as a herc, good defenses, and also comes with pounce. and is about 79 mil coins cheaper.

besides if the higher level veno's herc goes down, its pretty likely the lower veno's herc will drop as well.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

ROAR please.

Bash may hold aggro better and actually do decent damage, but it will not always steal aggro back. In the case of an archer or fist bm stealing aggro off a ? boss, roar *will* steal back aggro. Bash probably will not.

If you really only do solo TT runs, bash is fine. If you do a lot of squad stuff where you are tanking, roar is a must.

I've squadded with many dozens of different venos with hercs with Pounce, Bash, Flesh Ream, *insert rare or strange skill*... I prefer and feel safest knowing that a herc in my party has roar.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

oh yes by all means, nerf your pet so that DD's that down know how to control their damage and steal aggro on TT bosses feel safe, and have another reason to blame you when they act stupid and die, that's a great idea.

bash is a hate generating skill, if DD's that lack control steal aggro, then they should stop DDing for a bash cycle or 2 (which is about the same as 1 roar cycle) if they dont know how to control their damage by now (which for a decent fist BM is at least 80+) then they deserve to die, if you want a barb run with a barb, a herc is not a barb, and if you pull agro off a bashing herc, you will be doing it after every roar too.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

oh yes by all means, nerf your pet so that DD's that down know how to control their damage and steal aggro on TT bosses feel safe, and have another reason to blame you when they act stupid and die, that's a great idea.

bash is a hate generating skill, if DD's that lack control steal aggro, then they should stop DDing for a bash cycle or 2 (which is about the same as 1 roar cycle) if they dont know how to control their damage by now (which for a decent fist BM is at least 80+) then they deserve to die, if you want a barb run with a barb, a herc is not a barb, and if you pull agro off a bashing herc, you will be doing it after every roar too.

lol. Stick to running solo tt then. Or only bring nubs. That'll solve the problem of your pet not being able to hold aggro. Guess you don't find yourself partied with a squad of people using highly refined weapons all that often do you?

As if the damage bash would generate over the reflect from a ? mob... lol you're a silly veno.

kenlee

lol at roar.
why should i let herc tank in a squad when its well known that others will steal agro? not that herc wont be let to tank that many bosses at 9x-100 but also every DD steal agro in FB/BH/whatever (except TT). if im in a full squad w/o cleric and barb or bm as tank that is not really a good squad... i'd better go solo. if you want to unleash your DD power you let barb tank not pets in BH. thats what ppl with comon sense will do it

fb79 is tankable by anyone (especially with range) except styg, which kinda need someone with better pdef. classes with range can tank some bosses in fb89 and because of a more random agro from bosses, pet wont tank those bosses in a squad. forget about fb99, lunar, higher lvl TT and what not since pets cant barely tank anything there.

there is no reason to gimp your damage and agro (long cooldown of roar) with such skill that you wont use it much. long cooldown and not generating agro doesnt help in grind at all

michael , more ppl tested roar and its really situational, overall its a **** skill

Michael_Dark - Lost City

kenlee wrote: »

lol at roar.
why should i let herc tank in a squad when its well known that others will steal agro? not that herc wont be let to tank that many bosses at 9x-100 but also every DD steal agro in FB/BH/whatever (except TT). if im in a full squad w/o cleric and barb or bm as tank that is not really a good squad... i'd better go solo. if you want to unleash your DD power you let barb tank not pets in BH. thats what ppl with comon sense will do it

About that...

If you're going to solo stuff all the time, bash is fine.

If you're going to be in party all the time, bash is useless. The only time you should be worried about losing aggro is in TT, any other instance, it doesn't really matter.

And you expect to be the lazy veno expecting DD squad to manage their aggro while you're taking? lol

We'd call you fail for not being able to steal aggro back and not invite you to runs that matter.

kenlee

1-x, 2-x, 3-x... nobody stole agro from me in TT. once herc is on boss and has a few seconds ahead wont lose agro unless pet die.
now with tagling mire and extreme poison my pet does up to 20k damage with bash when i go alone, that helps me alot yea. you agree with solo

now in squad, pet hit roar. someone else steal agro over pet, what do you do now, wait for roar cooldown and hope that pet gain agro again? kinda hard to regain agro again from styg unless you are barb. same with ethereal abomination or phlebo that likes to switch targets. but again, most ppl in my faction let barb tank everything 9x. i help ppl in TT to get their mats and again, it never happened to lose agro to any class.

what the hell it has to do with lazy venos? maybe you as a bm want to tank it?! instead of calling others fail you should tank them by yoursel. a pet is a pet, wth you rely so much on a pet tanking? a veno is more useful debuffing instead of pushing heal button over and over again. end game bosses cant be tanked by herc, what do you then? if veno was the ultimate tank then barb was useless but you and others expect venos to do all the tanking work and also to keep agro all the time, like there are tons of skill slots to pt agro skills

a pet with roar is useless at solo grinding, yet most venos get their coins for herc/nix from solo grind

Michael_Dark - Lost City

kenlee wrote: »

1-x, 2-x, 3-x... nobody stole agro from me in TT. once herc is on boss and has a few seconds ahead wont lose agro unless pet die.
now with tagling mire and extreme poison my pet does up to 20k damage with bash when i go alone, that helps me alot yea. you agree with solo

And in that same situation, how much more is your herc reflecting for? Just curious.

An archer with a +10 cv bow, or me with cv claws, I have stolen aggro off ? bosses in TT on more than several occasions.

now in squad, pet hit roar. someone else steal agro over pet, what do you do now, wait for roar cooldown and hope that pet gain agro again? kinda hard to regain agro again from styg unless you are barb. same with ethereal abomination or phlebo that likes to switch targets. but again, most ppl in my faction let barb tank everything 9x. i help ppl in TT to get their mats and again, it never happened to lose agro to any class.

I've never seen anyone instantly take aggro back from a herc that has just roared except for another herc to do the same.

Yes, in circumstances where there is a lot of DD, it's easier and faster for everyone to go all out and pause when herc loses aggro and wait for the cooldown than it woud be for bash to build up aggro to steal it back... especially when it isn't instantly apparent when someone else realizes they have stolen aggro and then pauses.

what the hell it has to do with lazy venos? maybe you as a bm want to tank it?! instead of calling others fail you should tank them by yoursel. a pet is a pet, wth you rely so much on a pet tanking? a veno is more useful debuffing instead of pushing heal button over and over again. end game bosses cant be tanked by herc, what do you then? if veno was the ultimate tank then barb was useless but you and others expect venos to do all the tanking work and also to keep agro all the time, like there are tons of skill slots to pt agro skills

I was just told as a DD to control my aggro. Where is this magical aggro meter that we can see and respond to? I'll tell you, it doesn't exist, does it?

a pet with roar is useless at solo grinding, yet most venos get their coins for herc from solo grind

It's not useless, it just won't help you kill your mobs as fast as you'd like. And if you're 'grinding' you're better off using your nix... it kills much faster much more efficiently and can do both ground and air mobs, eh? Ok, so you're not lazy... how does selfish sound?

So are you going to be support or solo veno? That's the primary difference. I can always tell the two apart within seconds of going into an instance, and yes, I do have to compensate for rogue venos who like to solo stuff, they usually end up getting people killed more often than not.

Pressa - Heavens Tear

Um Michael do you know what roar does truly? Or are you just going by what you think? Roar as I have stated before RESETS aggro giving a small amount of aggro to the caster and deleting all aggro ties to everyone else however if you steal aggro once you are going to do it again before the next roar cycle because aggro reset. Roar works with barbs because they have multiple aggro skills but if you get roar on a herc the only aggro skill is the roar which just reset aggro.

And its easy to tell how much your aggro is think this if your doing 2x the damage the tank is your going to take aggro simple as that. So think ahead if your stealing aggro what should you do? STOP **** ATTACKING. Herc has a attack rate of .8 and without amps or mires would more then likely do 2.5k damage and a similar amount with bramble so thats about 10k every few seconds if your doing 20k in 3 or so seconds for gods sake stop attacking for a min or two. Thats what is meant by controlling your aggro its easy to tell look at the venos level and remember around how much a herc does every 5 seconds you might have to ask. Remember bash stacks aggro the more they use it the harder it is to take Roar does not stack aggro roar resets it.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

severely nerfing your own ablitities and the usefulness of a $200 dollar pet, for the occasional *oh ****!* situation, is probably not a great idea. if you want a back up, *oh ****!* pet, its a lot more economical to use the armored bear, which has close to the same attack as a herc, good defenses, and also comes with pounce. and is about 79 mil coins cheaper.

besides if the higher level veno's herc goes down, its pretty likely the lower veno's herc will drop as well.

If I want to DD I will use something better than the herc, like a scorpion if I am indoors or a phoenix outdoors, so I am hardly gimping my damage.

If the other herc gets killed, most likely was due to something wierd happening, like lag and high end combo. That means my herc can tank, worse case, long enough for the other veno to res her herc and retake aggro.

I find the herc not that good at grinding, there are better options among regular pets, with the legendary phoenix being the queen of grinding pets. In the other hand, I do not play solo very often, since I am in a fairly active guild, so that makes a difference. If I found myself having to solo most of the time, I would had put bash instead of keeping pounce.

I will not bother commenting on the bear having "almost" the same attack as the herc, since I think you must have made a typo.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Pressa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Um Michael do you know what roar does truly? Or are you just going by what you think? Roar as I have stated before RESETS aggro giving a small amount of aggro to the caster and deleting all aggro ties to everyone else however if you steal aggro once you are going to do it again before the next roar cycle because aggro reset. Roar works with barbs because they have multiple aggro skills but if you get roar on a herc the only aggro skill is the roar which just reset aggro.

Yes, and I'm not disputing that at all. When someone does steal aggro, most people realize that they need to stop. When roar'd the aggro will be instantly captured by the herc. With bash, it will have to rebuild until aggro is stolen again. This often would take longer than it would for cooldown of roar. I've seen both examples of this happen more times than I could even fathom counting.

And its easy to tell how much your aggro is think this if your doing 2x the damage the tank is your going to take aggro simple as that. So think ahead if your stealing aggro what should you do? STOP **** ATTACKING. Herc has a attack rate of .8 and without amps or mires would more then likely do 2.5k damage and a similar amount with bramble so thats about 10k every few seconds if your doing 20k in 3 or so seconds for gods sake stop attacking for a min or two. Thats what is meant by controlling your aggro its easy to tell look at the venos level and remember around how much a herc does every 5 seconds you might have to ask. Remember bash stacks aggro the more they use it the harder it is to take Roar does not stack aggro roar resets it.

No, it's not easy to tell how much aggro you're creating until it's actually stolen. I've never seen a party that continuously calls out damage and says in the middle... geez we ought to stop DDing cause we might steal aggro. The herc is reflecting and dealing normal damage. Everyone else is dealing reduced damage. You only see the damage that you create as well.

As I've said before, once aggro is stolen, it may take a few seconds for a DD party to stop. If a herc has roar, it is more likely to regain aggro where the party can sit a few more seconds. With bash, it may take a bit longer for the herc to regain aggro.

I've run a LOT of TT and just saying exactly how I see it. I'm no silly oracle nub giving you false impresssoins, i'm relating my personal experience from lots of game time.

kenlee

for example ive seen reflecting up to 16k in a squad at 2-3 fataliqua, that boss hit herc for about 1.8k. other bosses hit for less and also do some magic that doesnt reflect back

maybe that pet had no agro skill or wasnt on? i had squad with archers, including r8 and havent seen a problem in TT at bosses that pet can tank.

i never said to anyone to hold their damage but if they let pet tank some bosses (not in TT) i tell them to wait a few seconds or more till they start DD. usually ppl that kills squads are those that goes in the same time with petd or clerics that heal in the wrong moment and wrong target or... recently assasins.

if you dont agree from the start how to work together then dont blame venos. maybe others want to rush, others want venos to lure mobs... i rarely die myself in a squad and i dont rely on cleric heal. venos can always dismiss pet and reset agro if they dont use genie to lure and pet to gain agro, wait for them to do first move if you counting on venos doing stuff. if not, why do you care. at bosses you also have to agree before who tank and such.

ive seen ppl dying more w/o venos in squad than with venos. dont expect all venos to be the same, get 1-2 to be your friends and work with them together. i have like 2 different groups of ppl that invite me for stuff. things works different in both squads because ppl are others and i do things different to be easier for them, i even have another genie for that.

now the thing is, if i tell to a barb to stop agro, my pet take agro over other DD because agro was build in time by pet skill not by damage

Michael_Dark - Lost City

kenlee wrote: »

for example ive seen reflecting up to 16k in a squad at 2-3 fataliqua, that boss hit herc for about 1.8k. other bosses hit for less and also do some magic that doesnt reflect back

maybe that pet had no agro skill or wasnt on? i had squad with archers, including r8 and havent seen a problem in TT at bosses that pet can tank.

i never said to anyone to hold their damage but if they let pet tank some bosses (not in TT) i tell them to wait a few seconds or more till they start DD. usually ppl that kills squads are those that goes in the same time with petd or clerics that heal in the wrong moment and wrong target or... recently assasins.

if you dont agree from the start how to work together then dont blame venos. maybe others want to rush, others want venos to lure mobs... i rarely die myself in a squad and i dont rely on cleric heal. venos can always dismiss pet and reset agro if they dont use genie to lure and pet to gain agro, wait for them to do first move if you counting on venos doing stuff. if not, why do you care. at bosses you also have to agree before who tank and such.

ive seen ppl dying more w/o venos in squad than with venos. dont expect all venos to be the same, get 1-2 to be your friends and work with them together. i have like 2 different groups of ppl that invite me for stuff. things works different in both squads because ppl are others and i do things different to be easier for them, i even have another genie for that.

now the thing is, if i tell to a barb to stop agro, my pet take agro over other DD because agro was build in time by pet skill not by damage

Sounds very sensible and realistic to me.

Another instance when roar is also more beneficial, when veno lags or their macro heal stops (don't say veno's don't afk or macro a lot :P) and the herc dies, if someone is left standing alive to tank, they've most likely kept attacking... as a fist BM I would NEED to keep attacking to get my triple sparks for healing and protection... just as a barb would keep attacking to keep building chi... the herc with bash would take an enormously long period of time to regain aggro. With roar, herc revived and rebuffed can immediately resume their task.

Hercs do die, more often than we would like as well. I'll stand by my belief that roar is the most important and useful skill to the squad. I'll also agree it's relatively worthless to the lone solo veno.

kenlee

i didnt say that roar isnt useful just situatinal. for most of the time its not useful but depends of squad. well fist bm steal agro even from barb so they probably want to tank instead of me or barb, depends... roar help there yea.

probably one day i'll replace bash but with shriek. not so many good barb and bm's left in this game and even more rare those who knows how to time intrerrupt bosses skils (alacrity/kick)

another option but for heavy venos or CS venos is to learn alpha male hehe

Pressa - Heavens Tear

I see your point however your talking a worst case scenario. And you rarely are to let that happen a good BM knows to nuke the damage on cooldown of bosses. A good archer knows to attack every other time to control damage. And you don't call out what damage you do you think to yourself what damage you do. Unlike players all hercs are created equal and remain equal know how much each hit does to the boss coming from the herc and figure out how much damage you can do before you need to stop for a bit.

What your saying is if sht happens herc can steal it back instantly but lose it instantly too.

Roar steals back well but has a downside of causing more trouble then the first place with roar you have to stop attacking after every roar or risk taking aggro.

Bash holds easier but has a slow regain should sht happen.

Each is good in its own way but bash can be used in more then just bosses.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

kenlee wrote: »

i didnt say that roar isnt useful just situatinal. for most of the time its not useful but depends of squad. well fist bm steal agro even from barb so they probably want to tank instead of me or barb, depends... roar help there yea.

probably one day i'll replace bash but with shriek. not so many good barb and bm's left in this game and even more rare those who knows how to time intrerrupt bosses skils (alacrity/kick)

Yeah, that's one thing I try to stay on top of regardless if i'm tanking or just DD... I always try to cancel, but I notice barbs who aren't tanking seem to forget that they can cancel as well... *shrug* But, I would always prefer to have a herc or barb tank, but I'm not going to sit on my full chi and not dragon or hell spark.

another option but for heavy venos or CS venos is to learn alpha male hehe

LOL! I would laugh if I saw that. Pretty pro lol

Pressa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I see your point however your talking a worst case scenario.
...
What your saying is if sht happens herc can steal it back instantly but lose it instantly too.

Roar steals back well but has a downside of causing more trouble then the first place with roar you have to stop attacking after every roar or risk taking aggro.

Bash holds easier but has a slow regain should sht happen.

Each is good in its own way but bash can be used in more then just bosses.

I'm not really talking worst case scenarios. The higher the level you get the more likely you're in a squad of end-game players. Situations like this occur more and more frequently. I never had this problemt from 6x-9x, but from 9x to 10x you are more likely you are to come across this situation. In those earlier levels, bash or flesh ream are just fine. Of course if you're one of the highest level in a lowbie faction, it's rarely going to occur. If you're in a high level faction, you'll see this happen relatively often.

In all honesty, where roar matters, the extra damage of bash doesn't. And in the cases where you're bringing a 9x/10x herc to tank a fb79 or 89, the people in the squad aren't likely to steal aggro from your herc in the first place and the damage lost from not having bash will be negligible with a full party. In the case of high 9x and 10x, if aggro is momentarily lost, people are able to survive until the next roar, but may not in the time it takes bash to retain aggro.

Pressa - Heavens Tear

b:bye You are quite avidly implying without actually saying I do not know what I am talking about because I have never squadded with people of your level.

You are quite wrong on a daily basis I squad with level 100 people and they never take aggro when the pet is tanking. Its easy to control your aggro if you are pulling don't pull it learn from your mistakes don't make the tank gimp themselves to accommodate your failure. (by your I mean the person stealing aggro). I have seen people with +10 weapons NEVER take aggro off a herc with bash. I know it may seem like its better but trust me as a veno its not. Its not practical and only works in certain situations not all situations. Thus the multi purpose bash is better.

What I am saying its better to gimp your damage a bit and not cause a party wipe then gimp the veno completely for everything else. And Unless your dealing such insane amounts of damage that a pet cannot get aggro back with bash in 2 usages. Bash remains superior I know it has saved you but as a veno I haven't met a boss that won't come back to the pet after 2 bashes if the DDs stop attacking. That is the situation you presented where it momentarily steals aggro. A herc wipe would still only take 10 bashes and thats just over one roar and it maintains a solid lead still 10 is a round about estimate if it takes more then 10 your doing too much damage and should be tanking anyway.

My policy is what barbs policy is if your going to continue to steal aggro and complain about me not holding it you tank it your obviously more capable. If you don't want to tank it then reduce your damage and shut up. Its really not a hard concept to grasp. You don't ask a barb to roar everytime he loses aggro no he flesh reams and bash is similar in strength to ream.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I will not bother commenting on the bear having "almost" the same attack as the herc, since I think you must have made a typo.

talking completely out of my **** actually

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Yeah, that's one thing I try to stay on top of regardless if i'm tanking or just DD... I always try to cancel, but I notice barbs who aren't tanking seem to forget that they can cancel as well... *shrug* But, I would always prefer to have a herc or barb tank, but I'm not going to sit on my full chi and not dragon or hell spark.



LOL! I would laugh if I saw that. Pretty pro lol




I'm not really talking worst case scenarios. The higher the level you get the more likely you're in a squad of end-game players. Situations like this occur more and more frequently. I never had this problemt from 6x-9x, but from 9x to 10x you are more likely you are to come across this situation. In those earlier levels, bash or flesh ream are just fine. Of course if you're one of the highest level in a lowbie faction, it's rarely going to occur. If you're in a high level faction, you'll see this happen relatively often.

In all honesty, where roar matters, the extra damage of bash doesn't. And in the cases where you're bringing a 9x/10x herc to tank a fb79 or 89, the people in the squad aren't likely to steal aggro from your herc in the first place and the damage lost from not having bash will be negligible with a full party. In the case of high 9x and 10x, if aggro is momentarily lost, people are able to survive until the next roar, but may not in the time it takes bash to retain aggro.

You really have no idea what you're talking about. In FB79 and 89.. ANYBODY can steal from a herc, regardless of bash and roar. All it does, to put roar on the herc, is aid in constant aggro shifting and making the situation more confusing. In TT, roar is a stupid idea when the herc can hold aggro on well over 90% of people endgame and this only causes those who have the potential to steal aggro from a herc to have a far easier job doing it.

Either you don't have a veno and probably should stick to the bm forum or you do have one and simply have a LOT to learn. Bash is by far the best optional skill for a herc and given that you've stated that bash is merely damage, you should probably do a little more research. It's also an aggro skill.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You really have no idea what you're talking about. In FB79 and 89.. ANYBODY can steal from a herc, regardless of bash and roar. All it does, to put roar on the herc, is aid in constant aggro shifting and making the situation more confusing. In TT, roar is a stupid idea when the herc can hold aggro on well over 90% of people endgame and this only causes those who have the potential to steal aggro from a herc to have a far easier job doing it.

Erm... nice to take my paragraph out of context. If you're a high 9x or 10x veno, your not likely to lose aggro to a bunch of tabbers or lowbies, are you? Perhaps just to an archer, but that's most likely it. Anyway, it was a theoretical situation. Yes, I know non ? bosses are much easier to steal aggro with. 93? Sorry, you're not endgame, you're still nub. Get your CV/TT99 to factor and see for yourself.

Either you don't have a veno and probably should stick to the bm forum or you do have one and simply have a LOT to learn. Bash is by far the best optional skill for a herc and given that you've stated that bash is merely damage, you should probably do a little more research. It's also an aggro skill.

Apparently you have serious reading comprehension skills or have just skimmed a few sentence of mine, in any event your meaningless banter has already been covered.

Bash is a damage skill as well as a threat generating skill. Apparently you need to learn that Bash does not automatically steal aggro and that Roar does.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

In all honesty, where roar matters, the extra damage of bash doesn't. And in the cases where you're bringing a 9x/10x herc to tank a fb79 or 89, the people in the squad aren't likely to steal aggro from your herc in the first place and the damage lost from not having bash will be negligible with a full party. In the case of high 9x and 10x, if aggro is momentarily lost, people are able to survive until the next roar, but may not in the time it takes bash to retain aggro.

Are you assuming the aggro from Bash is simply due to the extra damage? I tested Bash and Roar (link earlier in the thread). The aggro from the two (sans damage) appears to be the same (except that roar appears to first reset the aggro table to zero). The damage from Bash is on top of the aggro from the skill use. So in all cases, Bash will generate more aggro than Roar, and will allow the party to do more damage without pulling aggro from the herc.

Where Roar is superior is when someone pulls aggro. Since it resets aggro, they cal pull aggro by a lot (maybe one of those phenomenal 400k crits people like to brag about), and Roar will still instantly switch aggro to the pet. But this is a situational transient thing. For steady-state damage, Bash is superior for holding aggro.

So if you put Roar on your herc, it will have less aggro-holding ability (even someone who put Claw on his herc, 30% extra damage, said it was worse than Bash). If you leave it on auto, the frequent aggro resets will cause more aggro switching because everyone's attacks are asynchronous and the wizard's big nuke may land an instant after the Roar. Essentially, Roar is a skill for emergency use - for when someone has pulled aggro and will die unless someone else takes aggro.

As for stealing aggro, I've gotten my heavy veno up to 90. If I put on my best gear, I have -0.15 attack interval (1.54 atk/sec), 236 str, one might ring with +126 p.atk, another with +77, and a Requiem Blade +5 (sapphire shards so no extra damage there). My usual procedure is to pull a mob with my zeal genie, send my Bash herc at it, turn around, close, Amp, and start attacking. With the above equipment config, I usually steal aggro within 5-10 seconds. It's rather disappointing since I created the build with the idea of using -interval and sparks to maximize damage output. I'm not even sparking and I'm stealing aggro from my herc.

To stop stealing aggro, I had to deliberately gimp myself by reducing the interval to -0.05 (1.33 atk/sec), swapping the +126 p.atk ring for a magic ring, and lowering my str to 227 (minimum to wear TT90 heavy armor).

If my herc had Roar for emergencies instead of Bash, I would have to gimp my damage output even further to avoid stealing aggro. Having a skill which can instantly regain aggro in an emergency is nice, but you have to weigh it against the cost - lower party DPS to avoid stealing aggro from the herc in the first place. Now, if you're grouped with a barb 99% of the time (maybe your spouse plays one), then I can see some rationale for putting on Roar instead of Bash. But for the vast majority of players and playstyles, Bash is going to be better both for aggro management and maximizing DPS.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Erm... nice to take my paragraph out of context. If you're a high 9x or 10x veno, your not likely to lose aggro to a bunch of tabbers or lowbies, are you? Perhaps just to an archer, but that's most likely it. Anyway, it was a theoretical situation. Yes, I know non ? bosses are much easier to steal aggro with. 93? Sorry, you're not endgame, you're still nub. Get your CV/TT99 to factor and see for yourself.




Apparently you have serious reading comprehension skills or have just skimmed a few sentence of mine, in any event your meaningless banter has already been covered.

Bash is a damage skill as well as a threat generating skill. Apparently you need to learn that Bash does not automatically steal aggro and that Roar does.

Yeah, except roar generates a very small amount of a aggro, while bash generates quite a bit.

there simply is no pet skill that is equal to alphamale or barb's fresh ream, it isnt there, stop trying to rationalize one, it doesn't exist. roar will automaitically steal aggro for exactly 1 hit and they what ever DD that cant control their damage in the first place will steal it again, way to go, if you stopped attacking you would get the same result.

gratz on 101, it really went to you head didn't it.

its not like 93 and 95(deicide's i assume you are referring to) are completely different games. all the interval gear besides the claws are lvl 90, so i suspect janus has seen a bm use them, and has probably squadding with one or 2. its the same game. Am i missing anything besides an interval weapon that would require other classes to change the way they do everything becuase you have one?

Whats all the new crazy content that 101 is seeing that 93 isnt? 3-3 and nirvana?

so 2 intances an interval weapon and a 3 digit e-peen means eveyone needs to rush out and trash 1M in pet skills and spend another 1M, and reduce the general effectiveness of their pet on the off chance that the glorious M.Dark will show up in there squad?

get real Francis.

turn down your DD so you don't steal aggro, if your 101 you should have figured out how to do that by now.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yeah, except roar generates a very small amount of a aggro, while bash generates quite a bit.

there simply is no pet skill that is equal to alphamale or barb's fresh ream, it isnt there, stop trying to rationalize one, it doesn't exist. roar will automaitically steal aggro for exactly 1 hit and they what ever DD that cant control their damage in the first place will steal it again, way to go, if you stopped attacking you would get the same result.

gratz on 101, it really went to you head didn't it.

its not like 93 and 95(deicide's i assume you are referring to) are completely different games. all the interval gear besides the claws are lvl 90, so i suspect janus has seen a bm use them, and has probably squadding with one or 2. its the same game. Am i missing anything besides an interval weapon that would require other classes to change the way they do everything becuase you have one?

Whats all the new crazy content that 101 is seeing that 93 isnt? 3-3 and nirvana?

so 2 intances an interval weapon and a 3 digit e-peen means eveyone needs to rush out and trash 1M in pet skills and spend another 1M, and reduce the general effectiveness of their pet on the off chance that the glorious M.Dark will show up in there squad?

get real Francis.

turn down your DD so you don't steal aggro, if your 101 you should have figured out how to do that by now.

*sigh*

Instead of replying to the repeating arguments, go back a page and pretend that I am.

And yes, +10 cv and tt99 gear ARE a level above 90 green or gold weapons.

FYI, Alpha Male does not hold aggro either. Shows how much Your Highness knows.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Where Roar is superior is when someone pulls aggro. Since it resets aggro, they cal pull aggro by a lot (maybe one of those phenomenal 400k crits people like to brag about), and Roar will still instantly switch aggro to the pet. But this is a situational transient thing. For steady-state damage, Bash is superior for holding aggro.

Thank you, my point exactly.

I have not denied or argued ONCE that Bash isn't a good or valid threat skill for the right circumstance. I have said Roar is a better skill, and outlined, many times over I might add, in my opinion why I believe it is.

Remove the element of damage from Bash... and all you have is one aggro generating skill and one aggro grabbing skill. And, when you have a party with lots of DD, having herc trying to generate enough threat to retake aggro is not as desirable as a skill that immediately grabs aggro.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

*sigh*

Instead of replying to the repeating arguments, go back a page and pretend that I am.

And yes, +10 cv and tt99 gear ARE a level above 90 green or gold weapons.

FYI, Alpha Male does not hold aggro either. Shows how much Your Highness knows.

really? 99 weapons are better than 90? im super shocked.

FYI no skill HOLDs aggro, except maybe barrage or dragons breath. alpha pulls agro, flesh ream pulls aggro, roar pulls aggro, they all reset agro the difference is how much hate they generate on the caster. FR - a lot, alpha - a lot, roar a little.

highness? im not the one claiming some kind of superiority, you are.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

really? 99 weapons are better than 90? im super shocked.

FYI no skill HOLDs aggro, except maybe barrage or dragons breath. alpha pulls agro, flesh ream pulls aggro, roar pulls aggro, they all reset agro the difference is how much hate they generate on the caster. FR - a lot, alpha - a lot, roar a little.

highness? im not the one claiming some kind of superiority, you are.

Umm... skills like Stream Strike or Flesh Ream, Bash, etc... generate threat and help to hold aggro, skills like alpha male or roar reset and grab it.

start at page 4, rinse, repeat.