Bash versus Roar on Herc

VixinRose - Lost City

Hello,

I have been pondering for some time now on which of the two to put on my Herc. I have been putting it off until now but since I am going to seriously start running TT's I have decided it is time finally get one of these skills.

What do you have and why is it better then the other is what I want to know.

I know what the skills do, I just cannot decide and would like some help from you all.

Thank you in advance!

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

I'd put Bash. It will increase your herc's damage output, and make it a better aggro holder. Roar will decrease the damage output (since it does no damage itself, and takes time to cast) and is only really useful for taking aggro back by resetting all aggro and giving a small amount to the herc.

Dioica - Sanctuary

Personally, I am not convinced that Bash is better than Pounce for anything that matters.

Bash has an eight second cooldown so if you are grinding on easy monsters you can pull aggro on seven of them in a minute. But easy monsters are easy, and if you bought a herc only for easy monsters, I am jealous of your pocketbook and I do not want to talk with you.

b:chuckle

So... when I researched this pounce vs. bash issue, I saw people claiming that pounce is worthless on bosses, that because bosses can not be stunned. But when a herc attacks a boss he still gets that white "quicked attack" icon, and I like ignoring people when I can see their claims were false.

Another suggestion has been that since bash has higher overall DPS than Pounce that bash holds aggro better than Pounce. Bash gives damage equivalent to 7.5 extra herc attacks in a minute where Pounce gives 3-ish extra herc attacks in a minute. But I do not know how long bash takes and it could easily also be preventing herc attacks which would otherwise have happened.

Of course, bash also generates aggro beyond pure DPS. But, so does Pounce. I feel also that its attack rate increase when opening combat factors significantly in a monster's aggro calculations.

I have seen people complaining that hercs with pounce have problems with monsters that use ranged attacks, but hercs with bash also have problems holding aggro against them.

Meanwhile, pounce works great when luring, since it usually interrupts the attack which would otherwise hit me, which saves me a lot of healing potions and sometimes keeps me alive.

I imagine that in some cases bash might be superior to pounce but I would not discard a legendary skill for an ordinary skill based on the opinion of people that show their ignorance about how that legendary skill works.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Dioica - Sanctuary wrote: »

Personally, I am not convinced that Bash is better than Pounce for anything that matters.

Pounce has an eight second cooldown so if you are grinding on easy monsters you can pull aggro on seven of them in a minute. But easy monsters are easy, and if you bought a herc only for easy monsters, I am jealous of your pocketbook and I do not want to talk with you.

b:chuckle

So... when I researched this pounce vs. bash issue, I saw people claiming that pounce is worthless on bosses, that because bosses can not be stunned. But when a herc attacks a boss he still gets that white "quicked attack" icon, and I like ignoring people when I can see their claims were false.

Another suggestion has been that since bash has higher overall DPS than Pounce that bash holds aggro better than Pounce. Bash gives damage equivalent to 7.5 extra herc attacks in a minute where Pounce gives 3-ish extra herc attacks in a minute. But I do not know how long bash takes and it could easily also be preventing herc attacks which would otherwise have happened.

Of course, bash also generates aggro beyond pure DPS. But, so does Pounce. I feel also that its attack rate increase when opening combat factors significantly in a monster's aggro calculations.

I have seen people complaining that hercs with pounce have problems with monsters that use ranged attacks, but hercs with bash also have problems holding aggro against them.

Meanwhile, pounce works great when luring, since it usually interrupts the attack which would otherwise hit me, which saves me a lot of healing potions and sometimes keeps me alive.

I imagine that in some cases bash might be superior to pounce but I would not discard a legendary skill for an ordinary skill based on the opinion of people that show their ignorance about how that legendary skill works.

Pounce has an 8 sec cooldown? I guess my shaodu cub is just lazy then...

VerenKaunis - Dreamweaver

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Pounce has an 8 sec cooldown? I guess my shaodu cub is just lazy then...

Yeah, my shaodu's pounce has a 60 second cooldown. I'm putting the little guy on a diet and a (very harsh) training program.b:angry

VixinRose - Lost City

Dioica - Sanctuary wrote: »

Pounce has an eight second cooldown so if you are grinding on easy monsters you can pull aggro on seven of them in a minute. But easy monsters are easy, and if you bought a herc only for easy monsters, I am jealous of your pocketbook and I do not want to talk with you.


Another suggestion has been that since bash has higher overall DPS than Pounce that bash holds aggro better than Pounce. Bash gives damage equivalent to 7.5 extra herc attacks in a minute where Pounce gives 3-ish extra herc attacks in a minute. But I do not know how long bash takes and it could easily also be preventing herc attacks which would otherwise have happened.

I have seen people complaining that hercs with pounce have problems with monsters that use ranged attacks, but hercs with bash also have problems holding aggro against them.

Meanwhile, pounce works great when luring, since it usually interrupts the attack which would otherwise hit me, which saves me a lot of healing potions and sometimes keeps me alive.

I imagine that in some cases bash might be superior to pounce but I would not discard a legendary skill for an ordinary skill based on the opinion of people that show their ignorance about how that legendary skill works.

As far as Pounce, mine for sure does not have an 8 second cool-down. Maybe I need to look into that. Also, my Herc does not have an issue with holding aggro from anyone but myself. I have this bad habit of pulling aggro and that is one of the reasons I wanted to invest in Bash or Roar. More of a safety net.

In terms of luring, I have never used my Herc to lure as I think he is to slow. I have both a Shaodu and a Kowlin that work amazingly well for luring and will not change that.

I think too I am confused by your last statement in regards to ignorance and disregarding a legendary skill.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Bash would be what established wisdom would recommend, as it would improve dps and Roar is often considered a situational skill. I don't own an herc so i'm not speaking from my own experience.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Dioica - Sanctuary wrote: »

Personally, I am not convinced that Bash is better than Pounce for anything that matters.

Bash has an eight second cooldown so if you are grinding on easy monsters you can pull aggro on seven of them in a minute. But easy monsters are easy, and if you bought a herc only for easy monsters, I am jealous of your pocketbook and I do not want to talk with you.

b:chuckle

So... when I researched this pounce vs. bash issue, I saw people claiming that pounce is worthless on bosses, that because bosses can not be stunned. But when a herc attacks a boss he still gets that white "quicked attack" icon, and I like ignoring people when I can see their claims were false.

Another suggestion has been that since bash has higher overall DPS than Pounce that bash holds aggro better than Pounce. Bash gives damage equivalent to 7.5 extra herc attacks in a minute where Pounce gives 3-ish extra herc attacks in a minute. But I do not know how long bash takes and it could easily also be preventing herc attacks which would otherwise have happened.

Of course, bash also generates aggro beyond pure DPS. But, so does Pounce. I feel also that its attack rate increase when opening combat factors significantly in a monster's aggro calculations.

I have seen people complaining that hercs with pounce have problems with monsters that use ranged attacks, but hercs with bash also have problems holding aggro against them.

Meanwhile, pounce works great when luring, since it usually interrupts the attack which would otherwise hit me, which saves me a lot of healing potions and sometimes keeps me alive.

I imagine that in some cases bash might be superior to pounce but I would not discard a legendary skill for an ordinary skill based on the opinion of people that show their ignorance about how that legendary skill works.

this post is full of inaccuracies... its kind of embarassing.

pounce has a minute long cooldown.
the attack speed bonus ONLY WORKS IF YOU STUN DUURRRRR
pounce, much like roar is a situational skill only.
bash generates more damage/aggro
how does a herc with bash not aggro a ranged monster very well? ive had mine hold against stygian plenty of times

dont call people ignorant unless you have a clue what the heck youre talking about

back on topic, leave roar to barbarians, its situational only, bash is useful 24/7

Dioica - Sanctuary

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Pounce has an 8 sec cooldown? I guess my shaodu cub is just lazy then...

Bash has an eight second cooldown. Thank you for pointing out my mistake -- I have fixed it now.

But did you have some reason for quoting every single word I wrote in my message and ignoring every point I was making to focus on this mistake?

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

the attack speed bonus ONLY WORKS IF YOU STUN DUURRRRR

No, whether or not I stun has nothing to do with whether or not my herc gets his attack speed bonus.

Would you like to try mis-stating the facts in a different fashion?

(However, if you like, I could post a screenshot of a herc with the "quicken attack" icon on him when he is tanking a half dead boss. But if people do not believe me when I say that I saw such a thing I do not think they should believe my screenshots either. After all, if I really wanted to fake it, I could arrange for a herc to attack a trash monster with pounce and then kill the trash monster and retarget the boss before taking my screenshot. So if you were really skeptical instead of just snarky I think you should try pounce on a boss, for yourself. But if you like, and if you can wait a few days for me to get in game and get to a boss and take my screen shot, I can post one for you.)

VixinRose - Lost City wrote: »

I think too I am confused by your last statement in regards to ignorance and disregarding a legendary skill.

Ok, I do not know where I lost you though. But I can try again?

I have seen two arguments that Bash is better than pounce.

Argument 1: Pounce provides no benefits on bosses. But I have seen hercs quicken their attack rate on bosses.

Argument 2: lots of fancy numbers showing how much damage a herc does in a minute using bash and pounce. But those numbers assumed that skill use was free, and I can see that the skill takes time. Also DPS alone does not tell me anything about how much additional threat the skill builds.

When I said that people are showing their ignorance, I meant that I could tell that they were not aware of the flaws in their arguments. WaffleChan has been kind enough to demonstrate that for us in this thread.

VerenKaunis - Dreamweaver

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

the attack speed bonus ONLY WORKS IF YOU STUN DUURRRRR

Actually, even if the mob (usually a boss) isn't stunned then the pet will still get the attack speed bonus as long as the stun goes off (even if the boss resists it).

VixinRose - Lost City

I am not so much interested in the numbers as I am in having my Herc be able to hold aggro better from my damage. I need a skill that will be most beneficial in TT when I solo. Pounce was good at the lower levels but I know I will need one or the other now.

I would like to hear from those that have Roar and do TT or at least more arguments. I know that I am getting one or the other.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Argument 1: Pounce provides no benefits on bosses. But I have seen hercs quicken their attack rate on bosses. in some cases, pure DPS < skill with built in aggro (unless youre a fist Bm). examples can be seen with barbarians and damage dealing classes IE flesh ream

Argument 2: lots of fancy numbers showing how much damage a herc does in a minute using bash and pounce. But those numbers assumed that skill use was free, and I can see that the skill takes time. Also DPS alone does not tell me anything about how much additional threat the skill builds. unfortunately we do not know how much they contain inherently, all we can do is go off the numbers, to ignore that is ignorant


this is about roar, not pounce. roar is more of an emergency only skill. it has a fixed hate, but the instant you outdamage the pet, youll have aggro back. there isnt a point in having it without having another attack skill, thus its better left on pets for those who dont use herc. good example, magmite with 2-3 attacks to cycle through

leave the being an arrogant **** to tweakz, hes better at it.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Dioica - Sanctuary wrote: »

Bash has an eight second cooldown. Thank you for pointing out my mistake -- I have fixed it now.

But did you have some reason for quoting every single word I wrote in my message and ignoring every point I was making to focus on this mistake?

Yes, defeating a long winded argument by disproving one of it's basic premises works for comedic effect.

As Waffle has pointed out, pet skills generate hate. Even effect only skills such as slow can be effectively used to mantain/regain aggro. Bash will have cycled 7 times on Pounce's cooldown. Furthermore, it remains unclear wether Pounce would raise threat level by a higher percentage than any other pet skill. Even if it did so by a factor of over 700% (which is unlikely) the slow cooldown increases chances other DDs may steal aggro on a spike.

If we considered the threat generated by skill use itself unimportant (it's not), then dps becomes the factor that determines threat level. On a pet with a base attack speed of .8 Pounce lvl 2 (90+) will provide only 3 additional (regular) attacks on it's 15 seconds of duration (.8 speed means 4 attacks in 5 seconds, level 2 Pounce increases attack rate by 25%). Bash lvl 5 on the other hand will have hit seven times for 200% of damage on Pounce's cooldown. Do the math yourself, it requires no fancy numbers just 3rd grade math skills.

BattleFairy - Lost City

bash is standard.

it holds aggro the best.

i can tell that person getting flamed is low level....

tbh i dont know many people without bash. I used to ask people to see if my herc would steal but I dont really bother anymore.

wouldnt ALWAYS steal from a pouncer or roarer but tbh it happened more times than i imagined even with large reflects.

and to that person getting flamed.....cooldown on a skill being 60 seconds makes a hell of a big difference than if it was 8. it ruins your entire post.
get with it.

VixinRose - Lost City

From talking to more then a few people and this post, I think that I will just get Bash.

I know a friend who is getting Roar just for AOE grinding, but I am not sure that will work for my purpose if I will be in TT's.

Thank you all!

Pressa - Heavens Tear

Something to chew on is this a level 5 bash won't lose aggro unless 13k damage is dealt. This is not including the pets natural attack just including one iteration of bash and then the pet standing still. Flesh ream (barbs) works in similar ways but a maxed flesh ream (barbs) can take a bit more damage output per second then bash.

Roar like the barbs Roar sets a bar at 50% aggro as some barbs have stated it erases all other aggro ties and focuses on the new aggro target of the pet. Hence new damage without further aggro generation will take aggro instantly not so healthy. And with aggro skills it stacks each time the more you do them the more damage it can take without losing aggro until the damage number is met. Roar however does not stack and would not make a good skill roar is for situations where the cleric is about to die and you have a pet and the barb just needs a couple more seconds to take aggro back you use roar with your pet and it resets aggro generation allowing the barb to gain aggro back again. Oh right one other thing in regards to aoe grinding roar is only aoe when its on a barb when its on a pet its a single target skill.

I am not refuting pounce in comparison to bash I do not have knowledge of it of the difference.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Dioica - Sanctuary wrote: »

Personally, I am not convinced that Bash is better than Pounce for anything that matters.

I tested the two quite some time ago (Pounce test results are on page 2). A single application of Bash 1 generates as much non-damage aggro as a single application of Pounce 1. Since Bash goes up to level 5 while Pounce caps at level 2, Bash is already better. Combine this with Bash firing 7 times for each firing of Pounce, that gives Bash a huge aggro advantage.

As for the attack speedup from Pounce, at max level it's a 25% speedup for 15 sec out of 60. That's an average 25%*15/60 = 6.25% damage increase. Bash 5 gives the equivalent of an extra attack every 9.5 sec. In 9.5 sec a herc at 0.8 atk/sec would do 7.6 attacks, so 1 extra attack is a 1/7.6 = 13.2% damage increase. So you get a little over twice as much extra damage from Bash as you do from Pounce.

As for Roar, what Pressa said.

DeakonFrost - Lost City

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I tested the two quite some time ago (Pounce test results are on page 2). A single application of Bash 1 generates as much non-damage aggro as a single application of Pounce 1. Since Bash goes up to level 5 while Pounce caps at level 2, Bash is already better. Combine this with Bash firing 7 times for each firing of Pounce, that gives Bash a huge aggro advantage.

As for the attack speedup from Pounce, at max level it's a 25% speedup for 15 sec out of 60. That's an average 25%*15/60 = 6.25% damage increase. Bash 5 gives the equivalent of an extra attack every 9.5 sec. In 9.5 sec a herc at 0.8 atk/sec would do 7.6 attacks, so 1 extra attack is a 1/7.6 = 13.2% damage increase. So you get a little over twice as much extra damage from Bash as you do from Pounce.

As for Roar, what Pressa said.

The numbers work, but beyond that it's what YOU want to believe is better. I keep Pounce, because the stun has saved me more times than bash ever will. However, for the case of solid aggro generation, bash pulls ahead.

For utility, pvp application, and plain fun, Pounce is where you want to be; why would the developers place a pointless skill on the most gold-intensive thing you can buy?

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Pounce has served me well and faithfully for thirty levels.

But it's beginning to wear out. It's decent aggro and damage, on bosses - but it's getting to the point where people steal. Level 95 demon BMs have of course always been able steal - but I've got more reason to be squadding with those levels now.

Pounce does a wonderful job of "Save me!" - especially useful when catching monsters. It's better than roar for "Oh ****, the cleric pulled" aggro transfers because it stops the mob 80% of the time before it gets off a single attack cycle.


But.... that lower aggro is really beginning to bite.
I'll probably switch over to bash sometime soon.

Pressa - Heavens Tear

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Pounce has served me well and faithfully for thirty levels.

But it's beginning to wear out. It's decent aggro and damage, on bosses - but it's getting to the point where people steal. Level 95 demon BMs have of course always been able steal - but I've got more reason to be squadding with those levels now.

Pounce does a wonderful job of "Save me!" - especially useful when catching monsters. It's better than roar for "Oh ****, the cleric pulled" aggro transfers because it stops the mob 80% of the time before it gets off a single attack cycle.


But.... that lower aggro is really beginning to bite.
I'll probably switch over to bash sometime soon.

Ah yes I suppose I should have specified bosses not mobs roar isn't for mobs they die too fast to care about.

Thats just it DeakonFrost its for PvP both Nix and Herc are built for PvP at that stun proves it. However herc isn't used for PvP that much sooooo bash. Granted bash won't save you when something is coming after you but pounce won't save you on bosses bash might. As for mobs I prefer general pets to cashed pets. They are stronger then herc and more frugal then nix. So I only consider bosses not mobs and since pounce doesn't really work on bosses I would go with bash all the way thru.

Another reason pounce is on the pets is because Pounce is a rare skill and rare skills get put on cashed pets what else would they put on them?

DeakonFrost - Lost City

Pressa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ah yes I suppose I should have specified bosses not mobs roar isn't for mobs they die too fast to care about.

Thats just it DeakonFrost its for PvP both Nix and Herc are built for PvP at that stun proves it. However herc isn't used for PvP that much sooooo bash. Granted bash won't save you when something is coming after you but pounce won't save you on bosses bash might. As for mobs I prefer general pets to cashed pets. They are stronger then herc and more frugal then nix. So I only consider bosses not mobs and since pounce doesn't really work on bosses I would go with bash all the way thru.

Another reason pounce is on the pets is because Pounce is a rare skill and rare skills get put on cashed pets what else would they put on them?

Well, this is assuming the veno has also had the cash/time to acquire a nix, because without a nix, on the ground, herc is the next best thing (pity the fool who attacks a buffed herc)

The second issue is, when pulling a boss, pounce activates like a spell and if the boss is running, he will always get pounced, which does place aggo, and thus switches to herc.

Personally, I would have switched to Bash like all the guides say at first, but I seriously lacked the coin to get at at the time, so I decided to stick with pounce for the time being, having an extra stun really is handy. However, if I had to really pick, I would get the nix buff for 30% hp. Herc gains an incredible ability to last through those nasty Patk/Matk combos that bosses love to use, and also gives more shock room. In a theoretical, well controlled situation, aggro management should be very well kept under control (such as a solo veno who doesn't need to worry about others) and extending herc's life by another 1000 points can really open up some new tanking opportunities.

Pressa - Heavens Tear

DeakonFrost - Lost City wrote: »

Well, this is assuming the veno has also had the cash/time to acquire a nix, because without a nix, on the ground, herc is the next best thing (pity the fool who attacks a buffed herc)

The second issue is, when pulling a boss, pounce activates like a spell and if the boss is running, he will always get pounced, which does place aggo, and thus switches to herc.

Personally, I would have switched to Bash like all the guides say at first, but I seriously lacked the coin to get at at the time, so I decided to stick with pounce for the time being, having an extra stun really is handy. However, if I had to really pick, I would get the nix buff for 30% hp. Herc gains an incredible ability to last through those nasty Patk/Matk combos that bosses love to use, and also gives more shock room. In a theoretical, well controlled situation, aggro management should be very well kept under control (such as a solo veno who doesn't need to worry about others) and extending herc's life by another 1000 points can really open up some new tanking opportunities.

Um no Golem is even better then hercs DPS which is over 1000 lacking compared to even golem. So regular pets have a better damage ratio without the use of skills. But on the subject of skills pounce works in the respect you are talking in the same way bash does and sandstorm and lightning bolt and fireball or pretty much any skill. The hp buff I have heard venos complain about putting that on a herc saying it pretty much ruins the herc for anything but WBs so much so that people sprung for a new herc because they didn't want to get rid of the extra lifed herc.

Sadly even when herc is tanking and getting the bramble return golem will still out damage herc even with herc using bash at the same level as golem given enough time that is. If golem uses bash he gains aggro within the next 10 mins.

Mystic-Night - Heavens Tear

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

pounce has a minute long cooldown.
the attack speed bonus ONLY WORKS IF YOU STUN DUURRRRR

^wrong. attack speed increases for my nix even if my nix misses stun.

Dyskrasia - Heavens Tear

Pressa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Um no Golem is even better then hercs DPS which is over 1000 lacking compared to even golem. So regular pets have a better damage ratio without the use of skills. But on the subject of skills pounce works in the respect you are talking in the same way bash does and sandstorm and lightning bolt and fireball or pretty much any skill. The hp buff I have heard venos complain about putting that on a herc saying it pretty much ruins the herc for anything but WBs so much so that people sprung for a new herc because they didn't want to get rid of the extra lifed herc.

Sadly even when herc is tanking and getting the bramble return golem will still out damage herc even with herc using bash at the same level as golem given enough time that is. If golem uses bash he gains aggro within the next 10 mins.

Are you sure? The herc has a better attack rate. Maybe my math completely fails, but based on ecatomb's info...

A level 90 herc has an attack of 2672 at .8 attacks per second.
A level 90 golem has an attack of 3240 at .6 attacks per second.
Over the course of one minute this would mean that a herc gets 48 full attacks, and a golem gets 36.
48 (herc) x 2672 = 128256
36 (golem) x 3240 = 116640
So the herc wins out on damage without skills.
If I had to guess I'd say a golem could possibly pull aggro from a herc of the same level if both were using JUST bash, but not if the herc was using both bash and reflect.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Assuming both herc and golem have Bash, the herc has more DPS. The front-loading of the skills (your pet fires off a Bash at the start of the fight, instead of having to wait 8 sec before Bashing) means the golem gets a bigger damage spike at the beginning. So depending on your pet's level and Bash level, this can amount to about a 5-16 sec interval where the golem sometimes has done more damage than a herc.

With Bash 5, about the 16 sec mark is where the herc finally pulls ahead for good. Prior to this, because their attacks are not synchronized, they leapfrog each other with each hit. After 16 sec, the herc is always ahead.

This ignores damage reflect. So the herc can pull ahead in total damage well before this point.

OTOH, you can put more than one 8-sec attack skill on a magmite (or scorpion or a variety of other pets for that matter). That will let it out-DPS a herc.

VixinRose - Lost City

Thank you all this is great information and has been helpful. Last night I learned Bash and it is level 4 (Herc has 5 lvls to 80, I am living in the Cube).

I am very pleased after running an fb59, by chance, in the way Bash holds aggro. Far superior to Pounce in my opinion. Once I get him up to my level I am off to TT!

b:thanks All!!

axt57

Why has this thread reached 3 pages? Everyone knows the first thing you do when you get a herc is drop pounce for bash. Its far superior.

Dioica - Sanctuary

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I tested the two quite some time ago (Pounce test results are on page 2). A single application of Bash 1 generates as much non-damage aggro as a single application of Pounce 1.

Ok, but pounce also increases attack rate, and in that thread you pointed me at, some guy named Solandri was speculating "This suggests that number of hits matters for aggro, not just damage dealt." but I have not seen much investigation on this issue.

Meanwhile, every case whre someone has reported hercs having problems holding aggro with pounce is a case where hercs with bash also have problems holding aggro.

Anyways, I have unanswered questions having to do with how pounce builds hate. Some day I will find the answers I need, but meanwhile, going from pounce to bash is easy but going from bash to pounce is difficult.

BattleFairy - Lost City

axt57 wrote: »

Why has this thread reached 3 pages? Everyone knows the first thing you do when you get a herc is drop pounce for bash. Its far superior.

look at the first page, there was plenty of right things on there.

ps, people make me giggle at how dumb they see things sometimes!

axt57

BattleFairy - Lost City wrote: »

look at the first page, there was plenty of right things on there.

ps, people make me giggle at how dumb they see things sometimes!

Yes they make me giggle too, especially if their character level has the potential to match their IQ.

This discussion should have stopped by page 2, where figures were provided. Bash > Pounce, the end.

VixinRose - Lost City

It could have stopped but it kept going when someone mentioned Pounce having an 8 second cool-down and has gone from there.

I have already learned Bash b:chuckle