Tideborn Overpowered

Risingson - Lost City · February 2010

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

And how many hits a sin at melee range is likely to take from a wizzie? You seem to be missing the point that none of the traditional DD classes have survival skills on par with assasins.

I'm missing that point ? Dude, I'm a Psychic, kind of a DD so far. If the Sin gets close to you, you're pretty much screwed yes. It's the same for Barbs and BM. You're supposed to take them down before they can reach you, that's why you can deal tremendous amounts of damage too.

I see your point and I understand that it's difficult to locate and kill a Sin faster than he can reach you, but I don't think it's impossible.

You also have to understand that balance isn't just about you pseudo-losing over and over to Sins. Real balance is about one thing defeating another, and said another thing being defeated by a third part and so on. You need a caster to kill a Barb quickly, and you need physical damage to take down casters. It's rock-paper-scissors, there is no such thing as one class that can defeat every other one in the game. You can't really be surprised if you're being ripped up to shreads by a physical DD...

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Risingson - Lost City wrote: »

I'm missing that point ? Dude, I'm a Psychic, kind of a DD so far. If the Sin gets close to you, you're pretty much screwed yes. It's the same for Barbs and BM. You're supposed to take them down before they can reach you, that's why you can deal tremendous amounts of damage too.

I see your point and I understand that it's difficult to locate and kill a Sin faster than he can reach you, but I don't think it's impossible.

You also have to understand that balance isn't just about you pseudo-losing over and over to Sins. Real balance is about one thing defeating another, and said another thing being defeated by a third part and so on. You need a caster to kill a Barb quickly, and you need physical damage to take down casters. It's rock-paper-scissors, there is no such thing as one class that can defeat every other one in the game. You can't really be surprised if you're being ripped up to shreads by a physical DD...

Ok, then tell me how I localize assassin in invisibility mode pls.

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2010

I think we all need to remind ourselves that 9x arcanes can get about 8k pdef buffed if they work on their gear, wizards much higher. If you haven't been 9x please lurk moar til you figure it out - arcanes are not that squishy.

MagicHamsta - Lost City · February 2010

Risingson - Lost City wrote: »

I see your point and I understand that it's difficult to locate and kill a Sin faster than he can reach you, but I don't think it's impossible.

it be impossible
X_X'
total invisibility + 2 teleport skills + stun/sleep/seal
along with the fact that AoEs be broken in this game
so we can't use that to force em out of stealth.
b:surrender

although a smart sin would just use the tele stun to cover the distance and disable you.
b:surrender

MANray_ - Sanctuary · February 2010

That's the thing man, given a sin's potential dps they could effectively take on every class in the game. Once again, near 70k dps. And they could accomplish this while sparking in stealth. I'm not even getting into stun and sleep being available to a sin... Even barbs can be mowed down in seconds by a sin that knows what they're doing.

Edit; lol'd ninja'd again...

Skybelle - Sanctuary · February 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think we all need to remind ourselves that 9x arcanes can get about 8k pdef buffed, wizards much higher. If you haven't been 9x please lurk moar til you figure it out - arcanes are not squishy.

Butbutbut...b:surrender. Me no 9x but I feel no squishy sometimes. Plume Shell ftw. b:chuckle

Saitada - Sanctuary · February 2010

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I agree with OP. Assassin shouldn't be allowed to switch to invisible mode till combat at least.

We all have make petition. Or least send every week 1 complain ticket.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. An Assassin is a master of stealth. They are trained to get in and kill, then get out without detection. Preventing them from being able to stealth before entering combat would be stupid.

Furthermore you seem to be suggesting that once they are IN combat they should be able to go into stealth mode. THAT would make them over powered. I think you need to run a Sin for a bit before you make any further statements so you know what their skills can actually do.

First, a Sin that is of a lower spiritual cultivation than yourself (unless using their skill to raise their stealth level) will easily be detected by you. If they are skilling, they can only raise that level a couple points and with pots, so can you (if those pots are available as it seems to be suggested in this thread), so a sin would basically have to be at your spiritual cultivation level or higher to be able to sneak up on you in stealth mode.

This means for all intents and purposes, that their stealth mode is negated for all but those of a lower spiritual cultivation. I guess they can farm noobs huh?

Now.. granted I have only a level 37 Sin, and my experience with him is limited so if I am incorrect here in what I have stated then I would appreciate it if someone would correct me on it.

As for their attacks, I can't judge that in PVP. I don't PVP in this game much. So won't comment. I will leave that up to those who do pvp.

~S

Risingson - Lost City · February 2010

And where did you get that 70k dps thing ? I'm curious.

And no, no no a Sin can't take a Barb 1on1. The armor difference itself is too big, the barb's pdef is way higher while LA doesn't handle that all that well. A single Armaggeddon would crush any Sin. Deaden Nerves isn't Lethal Weapon man, you have to think of ways to get around it. Sins are a new class, all the counters (if any) haven't been figured out yet, give it time.

I could be wrong, maybe Sins are indeed overpowered, but only time will tell.

WitchTamer - Sanctuary · February 2010

The damage output of the assassin is pretty messed up, dealing 1-2k at lv.70/80 with an auto attack speed of 1.25/sec. they aren't exactly squishy (They can dodge death, EVADE magic with the weird evasion buff and can cloak during combat). Not to mention I'd had an assassin stun me (using tele-stun) through my sage sparks invincibility (it basically looked like I got interrupted while sparking).

@Risingson, if the assassin isn't a brain dead moron then your pretty much dead. This is a class you need to effectively kill twice to win. they out range wizards with the teleport technique at 30.0 and 35m and if all else fails they just cloak up to you, spark in stealth and lock you down.

Seriously if you think Tideborn will stay like this though, you are a little delusional >.>

These weren't tested enough before being released tbh and will need fixing soon.

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2010

The 70k dps or whatever was from another thread, which assumes a sin has 5 attacks/s under perma-demon spark auto attacking. Not very realistic considering you want rank8 for that too. That's not why assassins are overpowered.

The difference is that assassins get so much more chi than everyone else. It's kind of discouraging seeing that assassins' chi skills blow Sage chi gain and archer's level 100 Awaken completely out of the water. Is there some legitimate reason for this? a level 100 skill is not cheap by any means...

MANray_ - Sanctuary · February 2010

The thread on which we discussed potential dps is http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=6648701

Estuary - Heavens Tear · February 2010

WitchTamer - Sanctuary wrote: »

Seriously if you think Tideborn will stay like this though, you are a little delusional >.>

These weren't tested enough before being released tbh and will need fixing soon.

Before you start saying things like this, remember one thing... Nix's bleed. How long have people been QQing about the bleed on a nix? Has it been changed yet? Nope, but see, people have found ways around a nix and my cleric can live when a nix attacks.

Risingson - Lost City · February 2010

Ha yeah, I forgot the blink range was over 30 meters. Ok, that particular feature is messed up I agree.

Although, Psychics aren't really overpowered. They deal less damage than Wizards, are probably more squishy but compensate with their Souls. It's just another way of playing a caster, and believe me it's not simple to play with those Souls.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Risingson - Lost City wrote: »

Ha yeah, I forgot the blink range was over 30 meters. Ok, that particular feature is messed up I agree.

Although, Psychics aren't really overpowered. They deal less damage than Wizards, are probably more squishy but compensate with their Souls. It's just another way of playing a caster, and believe me it's not simple to play with those Souls.

They do less damage ok. But consider huge casting time on wizard. How many hits you can do? Till I channel and cast spell? And I don't telling about stunt etc...

LingBanamu - Lost City · February 2010

Risingson - Lost City wrote: »

You do realize that, as fancy as the DD ability of Sins sounds, it would merely do nothing if they couldn't handle a hit from a caster.

I mean, take a 90+ Sin and a 90+ Wizard, I'm pretty sure a single spell from the Wizard could kill the Sin. Deaden Nerves balances that. As for invisibility, I believe there are apothecary pots that raise your awareness level enough to allow you to see a same-lvled Sin.

Isn't this true for most classes? That is, being 1-shotted(or close to at least) by a wiz?

A sin negates that with deaden nerves. Then, they have time to retaliate with shadow escape,(recover hp with event pots if they don't have a charm), then follow up with shadow teleport, deep sting, throat cut, knife throw(to interrupt channeling while the others are on cooldown), ect., all of which have normal attacks while the stun/silence is in effect. Now what do you have? A dead wiz. An archer couldn't do that, they would be dead after the first hit.

A cleric, psy, or another wiz might be able to survive the first hit, but a second hit would kill them. A bm might survive 1-hit if their hp is high enough. A barb would survive the longest, but would eventually die. All of this is assuming the wiz got the jump on other class; if it be the other way around, the outcome differs.

If you toss genies and apotho pots into the mix, it gets more complicated on the outcome.

-Ling

P.S. yes I'm a bit slow on this response, but somebody needed to spell it out b:surrender

Risingson - Lost City wrote: »

And where did you get that 70k dps thing ? I'm curious.

Daggers have a fast attack rate and they have a lovely skill called Inner harmony; they can constantly be sparking.

Risingson - Lost City wrote: »

And no, no no a Sin can't take a Barb 1on1. The armor difference itself is too big, the barb's pdef is way higher while LA doesn't handle that all that well. A single Armaggeddon would crush any Sin. Deaden Nerves isn't Lethal Weapon man, you have to think of ways to get around it. Sins are a new class, all the counters (if any) haven't been figured out yet, give it time.

Sins have high dex. Unless the barb has high dex and +xx% acc. rings, they will be missing them a lot. Sins also have skills which increases their evasion. Also, if Armageddon 1-shots them, we have deaden nerves coming up again. If the sin has a charm and the barb doesn't(idk why they wouldn't if they were using arma in pvp), the barb is out 1/2 of their hp and is an easier kill. Or the sin can shadow escape and not come back.

Risingson - Lost City wrote: »

I could be wrong, maybe Sins are indeed overpowered, but only time will tell.

I tried to take on a sin my level at around 38. I was stacking Pdef, and could kill barbs and bms my level with ease. I couldn't even come close to handling a sin my level 1on1, in a duel or open pvp(using plume shell, IH, event pots, apotho pots, everything that I could use). The one time I did get close to killing the said sin(2on1 this time), he forced stealth before I could finish casting my kill blow. And a 6x bm dropped in the middle of our fun and killed us all >_<.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · February 2010

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

That makes absolutely no sense at all. An Assassin is a master of stealth. They are trained to get in and kill, then get out without detection. Preventing them from being able to stealth before entering combat would be stupid.

Furthermore you seem to be suggesting that once they are IN combat they should be able to go into stealth mode. THAT would make them over powered. I think you need to run a Sin for a bit before you make any further statements so you know what their skills can actually do.

First, a Sin that is of a lower spiritual cultivation than yourself (unless using their skill to raise their stealth level) will easily be detected by you. If they are skilling, they can only raise that level a couple points and with pots, so can you (if those pots are available as it seems to be suggested in this thread), so a sin would basically have to be at your spiritual cultivation level or higher to be able to sneak up on you in stealth mode.

This means for all intents and purposes, that their stealth mode is negated for all but those of a lower spiritual cultivation. I guess they can farm noobs huh?

Now.. granted I have only a level 37 Sin, and my experience with him is limited so if I am incorrect here in what I have stated then I would appreciate it if someone would correct me on it.

As for their attacks, I can't judge that in PVP. I don't PVP in this game much. So won't comment. I will leave that up to those who do pvp.

~S

Sins can get out of combat using Shadow Escape and Cat like Thread does allow them to use Stealth against higher levels. An 85 sin is effectively invisible to all. Pots that can raise your awareness level will be cornered by land owning factions, meaning they'll be expensive, and popping a pot everytime you "feel" you're being targetted by a sin may not prove practical. Sure, you could pop a pot once engaged to prevent the sin from escaping, but that would mean 1 apo cooldown for you that will be available to the sin. If he doesn't lock you down. If, even with 3aps, he doesn't get you first. And then the sin still has Deaden Nerves available... That's on top of the customary charm, the teleports (1 comes with a stun), the instant chi gain and the debuffs...

And yes, the terrific dps, even if not fully geared a sin should be at least on par with other DD classes.

Edit; -_- seems i'm forever doomed to be ninja'd...

Risingson - Lost City · February 2010

There is a little trick tho. If you start channeling a spell towards the Sin, and he goes into Stealth, the spell will still occur. You just have to pay attention and don't cancel nor try to move or detarget the Sin.

Saitada - Sanctuary · February 2010

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sins can get out of combat using Shadow Escape and Cat like Thread does allow them to use Stealth against higher levels. An 85 sin is effectively invisible to all. Pots that can raise your awareness level will be cornered by land owning factions, meaning they'll be expensive, and popping a pot everytime you "feel" you're being targetted by a sin may not prove practical. Sure, you could pop a pot once engaged to prevent the sin from escaping, but that would mean 1 apo cooldown for you that will be available to the sin. If he doesn't lock you down. If, even with 3aps, he doesn't get you first. And then the sin still has Deaden Nerves available... That's on top of the customary charm, the teleports (1 comes with a stun), the instant chi gain and the debuffs...

And yes, the terrific dps, even if not fully geared a sin should be at least on par with other DD classes.

Hmm ok I haven't gotten all those skills yet (obviously, as my sin is just 37) so I haven't used some of them. I guess I need to level my sin some more and try these things out. That will have to wait a bit though, I want 85 for this toon.

Thanks for the additional information :-)

~Saitada

LingBanamu - Lost City · February 2010

Risingson - Lost City wrote: »

There is a little trick tho. If you start channeling a spell towards the Sin, and he goes into Stealth, the spell will still occur. You just have to pay attention and don't cancel nor try to move or detarget the Sin.

If a sin stealths before the channeling finishes, the spell won't hit them. I tried this when a sin had less than 5% hp left. I was casting Cyclone and he stealthed before I finished casting, it didn't hit him.

-Ling

FanFon - Dreamweaver · February 2010

Where are all the sins sucks qq trolls?

LingBanamu - Lost City · February 2010

FanFon - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Where are all the sins sucks qq trolls?

There are none, because sin's don't suck?b:chuckle

-Ling

Sjuggs - Lost City · February 2010

When is the Tide nerf update? b:sad
Not soon surely, Devs dont really read peoples suggestions b:cry

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Sin's OP'd ? Maybe

Wizzies being able to hit for 100k + after PvP reduction OP'd ? maybe

Dev's fixing OP'd balance problems for PvP ? one word.. Fleshream

Dont hold your breath guys and gals !!

Saitada - Sanctuary · February 2010

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sin's OP'd ? Maybe

Wizzies being able to hit for 100k + after PvP reduction OP'd ? maybe

Dev's fixing OP'd balance problems for PvP ? one word.. Fleshream

Dont hold your breath guys and gals !!

Don't make me use my QQ bird on you! b:angry

lol.

~S

Varscona - Sanctuary · February 2010

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sin's OP'd ? Maybe

Wizzies being able to hit for 100k + after PvP reduction OP'd ? maybe

Dev's fixing OP'd balance problems for PvP ? one word.. Fleshream

Dont hold your breath guys and gals !!

lolwat...screenshot of wizard hitting 100k in PvP please.
if not amped/dragon/triple spark/crit i dont see how that could happen. i'll take 50k, but 100k? damn son.

and for the record, flesh ream is no longer that OP at end game. it's mainly a level range balance thing.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Varscona - Sanctuary wrote: »

lolwat...screenshot of wizard hitting 100k in PvP please.
if not amped/dragon/triple spark/crit i dont see how that could happen. i'll take 50k, but 100k? damn son.

and for the record, flesh ream is no longer that OP at end game. it's mainly a level range balance thing.

Of course. No one hit for 100k in PVP. It's BS. Max what I ever seen was in TW ~35k. After black sparked and critical black dragon.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · February 2010

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

complain

tbh, that's all I really saw.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · February 2010

Whatever Wizzies may hit for it's all they got. Yes, the class is well rounded with skills like Stone Barrier, Essential Sutra and Undine Strike, but they remain the proverbial glass cannon. If anything Wizzies deserve a power boost, specially at low and mid levels. As for game balance they're probably the one thing stopping HA types from running amok.

As for FR i would myself be for fixing the issue (as long we got all other nerfs done to venos reversed) but even that has been addressed with a solution (of sorts) in genie skills Blood Clot and Cauterize.

Sins have proven a far greater ressilience than archers even with the same build and armor. They may employ bows with the full advantages of a pure Dex build. They have an almost endless chi supply. They can boost both the frequency and the damage of their crits to levels unknown by any other class.
Their survival skills (Deaden Nerves and Shadow Escape) are unrivaled. They have unique evassion to top it off and may even escape magic attacks. They can stun, sleep and seal effectively. Even their small utilities (speed buffs, teleports, bloodpaint) give them tremendous advantage. And finally, they have biggest dps potential in game.

It's overwhelming DD without the disadvantages, in no way on the same league as what we would previously call unbalanced...

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Of course. No one hit for 100k in PVP. It's BS. Max what I ever seen was in TW ~35k. After black sparked and critical black dragon.

Would you like salt and Relish with your words while you eat them ? b:pleased

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · February 2010

Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Would you like salt and Relish with your words while you eat them ? b:pleased

Wow You really surprised me. This is The highest damage what i ever see in pvp. But this damage is maybe 1 from 10k tries. b:laugh

Tideborn Overpowered

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