HA vs Pure Arcane vs Arcane + vit poll

It seems lots of venos are asking questions about that these days... IMO, all the builds seem good, but Im personally Light armor. It's probably not the best build, most people would say vit-arcane is the best. But, with vit-arcane, and pure arcane you limit yourself to one skill tree, unlike if you do light armor or heavy, then you can use both skill trees. Im speaking this on a pvp basis. I really can't see an arcane veno using foxform in pvp except to purge, amp, or soul degen the enemy, However, I can see a light armor veno or heavy veno using pure fox attacks on other robe classes.

The poll doesn't account for differing play styles and differing options at different levels (HA not being as viable at lower levels). Play styles must heavily be considered as some level by doing simple mundane dailies vs grinding, and others are very successful merchants. The attitude of many vit arcanes is that proper sharding and refining for Pure Mag is too far out of reach which parallels the attitudes of Venos that refuse to get hercs/ nixes, or ones that go with LA. For the people that play the PvE part of the game and advance mostly by actually playing: Pure Mag and HA can incredibly speed things up while reducing operation costs.

What does pure mag do for me? - 110 medals instead of 80 in Public quest. More efficient grinding, mp management, faster quest completion, better DD'ing, faster HP replenishment through leech / pots/ heals (high def vs high HP).

Though I'm pure mag, I can see good reasons to go HA. It just doesn't suit my style or desire to be able to solo as much. For PvP, things may be different BUT I could come up with and have seen good arguments for why this isn't necessarily the case. If a build allows for faster advancement / acquisitions: then I think that transfers over to PvP (higher levels / more valuable equips), unless you're always doing PvP.

What is often left out of arguments by Vit Arcane proponents is what grade of shards they recommend or even types of shards. A Vit Arcane may be more inclined to choose more expensive Citrine Shards as opposed to cheaper Garnet (at grade 9+). They may also be inclined to use lower level shards because they're not as productive in PvE. I don't understand how someone can recommend a certain number of vit per level and leave out follow through information like level of shards and refines. For equipment you plan to use to 99 or more for pure mag, I recommend at the very least Perfect Shards, and up to lvl 5 refines. This doesn't have to be immediate, as you can refine and imbue as needed or as convenient. It seems crazy to imbue something like multiple average shards only to later purify to add immaculate, then something else down the road.

Power comes at a cost, but it can also pay off.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »

But, with vit-arcane, and pure arcane you limit yourself to one skill tree, unlike if you do light armor or heavy, then you can use both skill trees. Im speaking this on a pvp basis. I really can't see an arcane veno using foxform in pvp except to purge, amp, or soul degen the enemy, However, I can see a light armor veno or heavy veno using pure fox attacks on other robe classes.

Many of the fox skills are independent of atk, but rely on mp, and are very suitable for even pure mag. Leech while maybe not doing as much damage, will return a greater percent of HP for a Pure Mag vs a Vit Arcane. I think a good HA does more DPS by not using the skills that would likewise not be useful to pure mags. As a pure mag pve, I often use Stunning Blow, Leech, Purge, Amplify Damage, Soul Degeneration, Melee Mastery, and Myriad Rainbow.

-All from the perspective of a pure mag L97 Sage veno on a PvE server that doesn't PvP but has done many TW.

Wish i could edit the poll -_-

Vit-arcane is really popular, especially as of recent. I'll probably restat to either that or heavy armor once I hit 90.

Vit-Arcane is good cuz you can still use human form, and fox form, you got good HP and Defense, yet your damage isn't extremely nerfed.

What is often left out of arguments by Vit Arcane proponents is what grade of shards they recommend or even types of shards.

thats what in science is known as a variable. getting in on a TT run and eventually farming all your gear can get it for free... thats no biggie on budget strain.

your whole 'i recommend perfect gems' is a brash generalization that not everyone can afford. when we leave it ambigious, we assume they know which is within their income and which isnt. just following the 'i recommend perfects' idea is just following something you read and havent tested for your playstyle; its just following a guide to be like everyone else, something youre outspoken against, no?

faster HP replenishment through leech / pots/ heals

to me, the more of a pool you have before your charm goes off being high is a good thing. it could mean the difference in leeching/potting/IH through a blow, or wasting a charm tick from one hit whether it be AOE, PVP, etc. its alot more cost effective if you ask me, in the long run those charm replacements outweigh a small pot fee by a ton.

The attitude of many vit arcanes is that proper sharding and refining for Pure Mag is too far out of reach which parallels the attitudes of Venos that refuse to get hercs/ nixes, or ones that go with LA.

who thinks that? thats usually the the rumor spread around about the HA/AA combo build, about it being far too expensive (when we know that isnt true.) what IS out of reach for some people byfar, are what you call minimum recommendations, not everyone can afford +5 gears and G9+ shards; no matter how hard you try to justify it, theres far too many variables to make your recommendations realistic ones.

vit arcane is just basically the perk of LA's defense and hp + a combo of the mp, m.atk of pure mag. it takes a little of both, and makes a fine mesh playing style that doesnt totally bunk you in one stat just to increase a little of another.

what i do not understand is heavy armored casters... seriously? alot of pdef at the extreme sacrifice of the majority of your other stats... please, tell me how that is worth it? i find it A. a pain in the butt to acquire 2 sets of end game gear all the refines/gems and B. not realistic to be able to switch on the fly because of how random TW can be.

example: you find yourself a mage, and switch to arcane to take him down; archer catchs you, and pot shots you from off screen. easy death.

example 2: vice versa, find archer to tank, wizard catches you, easy one shot.

to me, i find it wiser to pick one of the other 3 more well rounded builds, and stick with them, switching out an accesory or two depending on situations isnt as bad as needing entirely different armor sets for them.

in b4 mr disagree turns personal attacks into an argument then calls me a troll

I recommended perfects or better. This is something I do practice. I'm a non Cash Shopper. At level 95 and less you can solo some world bosses which drop perfect shards even w/o a cash shop pet.

with or without herc buffed range pet?

Income is partially if not all based on efficiency of killing. If perfect shards aren't within a venomancer's income: then they are leveling by mundane dailes or such, unsuccessful at merchanting, etc and my advice doesn't apply to them

all speculation, not factual; there is getting lucky drops, time availiable to play, how much of that play time you can devote to farming/merchanting etc among a number of other variables. cant expect the entire community to have been fortuitous enough to take advantage of JOJ or have the funds for tokens now.

Lower HP/ higher def decreases charm usage, pot level requirements, etc.

and that makes sense how? having lower hp/defense than the vit mag would result in more charm/pot use in certain situations, having that buffer zone of extra hp results in me only needing potions to do things like soulbanisher or lord of percussion etc.

the only thing thats happening is youre getting more hp healed out of each potion, not using them less.

+5 is easy to obtain, and I did point out already that my advice was for those that actually play the game to advance in it (as opposed to mundane dailies). Everyone can afford them, it's more a matter of play style.

refer to my first point under the first quote.

It does bunk you in magic which equates to deficient matk, mdef, max mp, mp recov, pet healing, etc that cannot be compensated for through refines or imbues.

no. it doesnt.

49 str, 406 mag naked +5 wraith conqueror (perfect gem) = 4982-5847
49 str, 100 vit, 306 mag +5 wraith conqueror = 4076-4783
(4982-4076)/4076 = 0.22
(5847-4783)/4783 = 0.22
roughly rounded, thats a 22% m.atk loss. (THIS IS A SHOT IN THE DARK BUT) if it works like the difference between sage / demon masteries on weapons (a 90% increase in atk over 75) the damage increase is insignificant, IE. the one im refering to is ~3% dmg increase)

youll see a vit arcane can still heal through the same bosses you can.
mp is an irrelevant stat
mp recov is an irrelevant stat
can you say: 3x spark/nature's grace?

refering back now, can anyone answer my question in my earlier post about HA?

I've always been intrigued by battle fox builds, but I chose a mage build with a tad of vitality added. I shard with garnets and use pdef ornaments (switching to channel for bosses/grinding). It's a pretty good all around defense.

AndyNagato - Lost City wrote: »

with or without herc buffed range pet?

Sooner if Herc buffed, but really it only needs Protect, not reflect or strong.

all speculation, not factual; there is getting lucky drops, time availiable to play, how much of that play time you can devote to farming/merchanting etc among a number of other variables. cant expect the entire community to have been fortuitous enough to take advantage of JOJ or have the funds for tokens now.

Your response is speculation. AH can eliminate merchanting time, and supply can come from drops, though using kitty shop is better for some things.

and that makes sense how? having lower hp/defense than the vit mag would result in more charm/pot use in certain situations, having that buffer zone of extra hp results in me only needing potions to do things like soulbanisher or lord of percussion etc.

I don't see vit arcanes using high level shards: therefore lower def/higher HP. They're taking the easy way to survivability at the cost of their productivity.

49 str, 406 mag naked +5 wraith conqueror (perfect gem) = 4982-5847
49 str, 100 vit, 306 mag +5 wraith conqueror = 4076-4783
(4982-4076)/4076 = 0.22
(5847-4783)/4783 = 0.22
roughly rounded, thats a 22% m.atk loss. (THIS IS A SHOT IN THE DARK BUT) if it works like the difference between sage / demon masteries on weapons (a 90% increase in atk over 75) the damage increase is insignificant, IE. the one im refering to is ~3% dmg increase)

22% insignificant? I don't understand.

youll see a vit arcane can still heal through the same bosses you can.
mp is an irrelevant stat
mp recov is an irrelevant stat
can you say: 3x spark/nature's grace?

With a higher refined /sharded weapon: yes, but I could likewise improve weapon. MP recov and max MP is a very important stat unless you like throwing pots down the drain, or you're one of those lazy venos that sits there spamming venemous.

Most of the time I'm playing, it's in gears for maximum dmg. If I switch to my survival gears: I lose about 1/4 of my productivity. If I were vit arcane on top of that: it would probably be ~1/2 of my productivity and the game wouldn't be nearly as fun. I also happen to be playing in lvl 77 sleeves, lvl 80 pants, lvl 90 boots, lvl 81 hat, etc, yet I have decent survivability at 98. I chose to go with speed boosting equips over the TT90 green set which would yield much better survivability at a cost of dps, m/s. So, not only am I doing fine w/o vit as char stat: I'm doing fine with far inferior survival gear.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

with the way attack powers work, the % increase is measly in how much more damage it produces.

The amount is made greater by mdef reduction debuff, amp, extreme poison, etc. A difference of 4 hits per kill vs 3 hits per kill is significant.

and with sage venomous, and master lis, or demon lending/crush vigor, you can 3x spark enough to not need pots for MP in between natures cool downs.

Sorry, pure mag veno here that knows better.

not everyone can afford to socket 4 pieces of gear + put perfect shards in them, as obsessed mentioned, that is extremely expensive.

Again, not expensive for someone who's advancing in the game w/o mundane dailies or other otherwise unproductive means. I'm not even sure what you're getting at since there are 7 pieces of gear that can be sharded, and no where do I mention paying for sockets.

thats your perogative, not everyone is you.

Not everyone is you. What's your point?

andy's response is stating the fact there are that many variations to what can affect income, the CHANCE of finding a bargain on the AH is one of many that can contribute to why your recommendations can be unrealistic.

I already addressed variations that affect income.

WaffleChan = TearValerin = banned troll. Keep the trolling alive!

I dont understand, ppl talk about builds around pve... can we forget about this?

Anybody knows that pure mag is better for pve except a few cases where you dont have money for shards and bosses do nasty physical aoe. If you want to farm, go pure mage, pointless to argue. If you dont refine up to +10 and use very good shards... that pure mag cant really do much in pvp/tw. You have very good mag defence and you can get good pdef too with shards but not having HP from shards/vit/refines only makes you 1-2 shots to some classes.

About HA/AA, nobody responded so far to AndyNagato. Yes it is hard to switch armors. When you go pk yes you can switch them but in TW or any bigger pvp event you dont go and switch armors like you spam pots. I was HA/AA too till I realise that its expensive and you have to look for items with stats, you have to refine and shard your armor and so on... but really not worth all this till you are 99. Yea you can have almost same mag as a pure vit, it helped me to solo bosses like drum/feng/soulbanisher, I can take more hits from physical classes but ppl ignoring something else.
Players dont have only physical or magic attacks. Clerics have both physical and magic and btw one cleric with some lvls above me one shoted me with tempest. Wizards have also magic and physical attacks. As a heavy or half heavy with stupid protection neck and belt like I've seen so far you can get 1-2 shoted by wizards, they just use undine strike to take your magic defences down with 60% then byebye. Archers have physical and magic attacks too, how do you think they can deal so much damage to bm/barbs?! BM's and barbs just use more their genies to kill other physical classes.
While you max out one defence, you kinda ignore the other one which is more important since magic classes deals massive damage in end game. Another thing is, yes you have some damage as heavy with melee hit but nobody will stay to take melee hits from a veno, even if they do... that veno is wasting his/her time there doing that.

@Meta - Dreamweaver
I really dont uderstant what you say and you are confused yourself.

kenlee wrote: »

While you max out one defence, you kinda ignore the other one which is more important since magic classes deals massive damage in end game.

Now you're saying that maxing out one defense leaves the other low. But this also counts for arcane veno's.

I got both TT90 Heavy armor and arcane set. During TW i never really switch, or rarely. I usually use a pdef necklace, mdef belt, HA top/leggings/boots and arcane sleeves. And my resistances are 62% for pdef and 50% for mdef unbuffed.

Now i've taken my own crappy gear as reference to compare the resistances between Heavy armor, arcane armor and my own combination i use during TW. It's all with a pdef necklaces and mdef belt btw.

Full heavy gear
Unbuffed:
65% pdef
47% mdef

Buffed:
72% pdef
55% mdef

Full arcane gear
Unbuffed:
35% pdef
64% mdef

Buffed:
44% pdef
71% mdef

My own most used combi
Unbuffed:
62% pdef
50% mdef

Buffed:
71% pdef
59% mdef

I'm not really that knowledgable if it comes to numbers and percentages and stuff. But to me it looks like arcane has more to suffer then heavy armor, if it comes to the balance between pdef and mdef. And heavy armor has the ability to switch around between heavy and arcane to make it balance better.
And don't tell me that physical damage is weak compared to magic. It's really not, and it often comes at a higher quantity then magic.

Note that HP isn't taken into consideration.

Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »

@kenlee

Melee dps is extremly viable vs arcane wearers. If you are stacking some -interval gear, it has really great damage, and they will stand there, there are plenty of skills to aide you with this. Stunning blow 8 seconds, Occult Ice genie skill 6 seconds, Stunning Blast genie skill 7 seconds, and a plethora of other skills to your disposal. Sure it takes planning and timing, but what doesnt.

You can switch armors, it's really not as hard as you are making it out to be. Not to mention HA gets more mdef than Arcane gets Pdef. Combine with decent refined rings and accessories, and it's more then enough. You arent gonna be sitting there while they beat on you either. Interupts and bramble are your friend.

You didnt even comment on the thread, just criticized others opinions. Which I do believe in this instance, with veno being so veritile, "best build" ends up being just an opinion based situationally and on cost efficency.

or u can just use anti stun pot,drop and dd on melee.
anyway,i agree that theres no ''best build'' or all venos would be using same build.
but i dont like idea of switching armors during pvp either,what if ur getting ganked from mage and archer for example..like others said,they have magic attacks and phys.so as clerics.
for me best would be to stick with 1 build and do what u can to get better def which u are missing

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Problem is, pdef is worth less than mdef. A flawless garnet will give 41 pdef, but a flawless sapphire only gives 33 mdef. So it's easier to make up a shortfall in pdef, which favors the arcane set (on top of the advantage arcane already has due to not having to spend points on str and dex). I've got a comparison of Heavy vs. Arcane in the works which takes this into account, but I've been way too busy to work on it lately.

I'm starting to suspect though that a heavy fox with max -interval gear blows away the DPS of an arcane caster.

Interesting thought, worth more in what way though. It' should all work out to the same DR in the end no? Rarely anybody sockets Sapphires, and shouldnt the higher base mdef on HA help to balance the shortfall as well. (Not to mention the ability of simply switching out a piece of armor or two to arcane, if it's in a crucial situation.) High refined accessories are everyones friend.

-interval gear = win b:thanks

/NiKi - Lost City wrote: »

or u can just use anti stun pot,drop and dd on melee.
anyway,i agree that theres no ''best build'' or all venos would be using same build.
but i dont like idea of switching armors during pvp either,what if ur getting ganked from mage and archer for example..like others said,they have magic attacks and phys.so as clerics.
for me best would be to stick with 1 build and do what u can to get better def which u are missing

Well obviously it's not gonna work every time on every person, but then again what strategy does, though most people don't go carrying around anti-stun pots, nor would they be expecting a veno to be trying to melee dps them/ freeze lock them b:chuckle. Was simply saying it is a possibility.

As for the second part, you could use a few pieces of each set of armor, you dont have to use the full sets, it'll end up giving better overall defenses than LA too. Otherwise just stick on whatever is your favorite. lol. I will totally agree switching armors around is not for everyone, but it's not as hard as many people think, just have to think about it, I have armor pieces on my hotkeys :P

everyone keep saying pure mage is only good for pvp well i have a lvl 70 veno with a nix so should i re stat to HA or LA or do HA/AA? i want to pvp(reason why i got a nix instead of a herc first)but everyone keep saying my build is for pve so my question is above can someone answer it for meb:sad

kenlee wrote: »

- if im not wrong, isnt stunning blast one skills that was renamed? ...and not to mention it is for archers only. that means you never had this skill. also i want to know what are the plethora of other skills are you talking about?

Ah yes, I was mistaken on stunning blast, sorry for that. There are a few other genie skills that add immobilize though. I never meant that I specifically do this or have done it(tbh my -interval is too low, to even consider it), I was just pointing out it is possible with the correct timing/planning. With max -interval gear those 2 skills should be long enough, if well executed *looks at fist BM*

- actually HA get less much mdef than AA get pdef unless you switch to your robe

Hmm?
TT99 Heavy mdef: +725
TT99 Arcane pdef: +188
Switching is really the main appeal of HA build in anycase.

- isnt more than enough imo. play on my server were a lvl 100 wiz can 1 shot a full AA buffed. uh and unless you dont purge, wiz can go up to 15k pdef. archers will do almost the same with metal damage.

I dont see your point here, AA being "pure-mag" I assume, which have pathetic HP? Interrupts/Stuns and bramble ftw? Also, just because HT is a pve server, doesn't mean everyone is terrible at playing, there are a decent amount of high quality players here too.

- a full buffed AA veno at lvl 100 can come up to 10-12k pdef and same mdef or more... and this is balanced imo while heavy goes to more pdef and less mdef

You can balance accordingly, and this doesnt factor in HP, peak defences, etc etc.

- unless is fist bm and now assasin then the answers is yes. normal hits are weak, most damage comes from spamming skills unless those 2 examples above, where both can spark often with their atk speed and their dex can make them crit alot. then again the example above with the wizard

Who says you need crit for good melee dps? Venos should be able to get pretty high attackspeed too.

I think this is max -interval a veno can get:
Anni pack cape: -.05
Love up and down: -.05
Gloves: -.1
Heavy 99 set bonus: -.05
Nirvana pants: -.05
Relentless courage(genie): 25%++(no idea how this translates into -interval)

i cant deny that even if ppl didnt test it yet. atk speed starts with 1.25 then you can use love up and down plus heavy gloves and some lunar robe with -interval. you will hit more often than a caster, you will generate more chi and counting sparks (demon for melee imo) and fox wallop (demon again)... this will be pretty nice damage on a standing target.
sage has advantage with that 200% melee mastery over 150% and 3% crit. ok i forgot 250% accuracy over 200%. still, without some rings, accuracy is under 1k which is pretty low. again, demon soul degeneration cuts target evasion in half. if your target is trying to run, befuddling mist slow target, stunning blow adds stun, fox form can outrun them and so on.
i made this big phrase about demon because i see most heavy venos are going sage, they use pdef ornaments as heavy, they use genie skills that that barely helps their heavy build... and so many other mistakes. this is what you get by following some guides made by venos that quit and never reach end game imo.

This I can totally agree with, a Heavy veno doesnt need any of the sage bonuses, and Pdef ornaments is not very bright. (I am HA demon veno btw)

back to hits per second, now casters can also use -channeling to increase their number of hits per second, still cant come up with melee hit rate imo but damage is pretty high. still need to test this

True true, I've been wondering the difference in dps, of max -interval vs max -chan. I hope Solandri can finish his analysis.

I wasnt meaning to rag on you btw just trying to add in some information from a Heavy veno perspective. There are ways around everything, counters to every situation. You seem knowledgeable and objective so I do respect and value your thoughts. Most of my talk is just personal experience as HA, and as a previous LA, and previous pure-mag. (I havent tried pure-vit myself)