THE FISTED ARCHER: Theory and Discussion

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary · January 2010

In the PVE world I have been a Fisted Archer with great success. Since I'm not a PVP player I cannot vouch for this styles effectiveness. But I can say that the Fisted Archer is very fun to play.

The basic theory is as follows: Shoot the hell out of the enemy. If it happenes to reach you, punch the hell out it. And when it comes to fighting a higher level creature and you know it will inevitably reach you, what you do is shoot the hell out of it with all the stun/slow skills and anything else you desire then when it gets close activate Winged Shell then beat the snot out of it. By the time Winged Shell disappears the enemy is either dead or damn close. Be sure to have the Fist/Claw as a hotkey. helps, of course, to have the best Fist/Claw for your level.

I've discovered two main downsides to this fighting style. Both are related to the loss of DEX points which effect Critical Hit % and Evasion. But how much of this loss really effects gameplay is my main debate.

An example: At level 60 the Fisted Archer's Light Armor will require 64 STR. Equipping the fist weapon "Annihilator of Souls" requires 96 STR. The difference is 32 points. If those 32 points were put into DEX one would have an extra Critical Hit % point (every 20 points of DEX is a Crit point) and Evasion would have a boost.

By level 90 the Fisted Archer would require 94 points in STR for Light Armor and 142 STR for the Fist. The difference is 52 points, which equates to 2 1/2 Critical Hit % points. But by then, what difference does 2 1/2 points in Crit make?

I don't feel the loss in DEX makes any significantly big difference. Being able to throw a flury of blows at a close enemy is very useful and you will be poppin' Crits left and right (literally) due to your high Crit rate. But is all this useless when maybe Lightning Strike or Thunder Shock or Thunderous Blast could better handle the close-range problem of the Archer? I have yet to test this since I never invested in those spells. Which brings up another good point: investing in Fist/Claw frees up Spirit Points which would otherwise be invested in the Lightning Spells (if you care to handle the close-range problem)

All in all, I love the Fisted Archer. In PVE he operates wonderfully and can handle his own very easily. And it's fun! I like being able to switch to a totally different weapon that strikes rapidly, taking advantage of my DEX attributes. Even if the Thunder spells were more efficient, I don't think I would switch. My character has character. And just how good is he in PVP? I have yet to find out. Thanks for reading. Please comment. - Captain Fury

Legerity - Sanctuary · January 2010

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary wrote: »

In the PVE world I have been a Fisted Archer with great success. Since I'm not a PVP player I cannot vouch for this styles effectiveness. But I can say that the Fisted Archer is very fun to play.

The basic theory is as follows: Shoot the hell out of the enemy. If it happenes to reach you, punch the hell out it. And when it comes to fighting a higher level creature and you know it will inevitably reach you, what you do is shoot the hell out of it with all the stun/slow skills and anything else you desire then when it gets close activate Winged Shell then beat the snot out of it. By the time Winged Shell disappears the enemy is either dead or damn close. Be sure to have the Fist/Claw as a hotkey. helps, of course, to have the best Fist/Claw for your level.

I've discovered two main downsides to this fighting style. Both are related to the loss of DEX points which effect Critical Hit % and Evasion. But how much of this loss really effects gameplay is my main debate.

An example: At level 60 the Fisted Archer's Light Armor will require 64 STR. Equipping the fist weapon "Annihilator of Souls" requires 96 STR. The difference is 32 points. If those 32 points were put into DEX one would have an extra Critical Hit % point (every 20 points of DEX is a Crit point) and Evasion would have a boost.

By level 90 the Fisted Archer would require 94 points in STR for Light Armor and 142 STR for the Fist. The difference is 52 points, which equates to 2 1/2 Critical Hit % points. But by then, what difference does 2 1/2 points in Crit make?

I don't feel the loss in DEX makes any significantly big difference. Being able to throw a flury of blows at a close enemy is very useful and you will be poppin' Crits left and right (literally) due to your high Crit rate. But is all this useless when maybe Lightning Strike or Thunder Shock or Thunderous Blast could better handle the close-range problem of the Archer? I have yet to test this since I never invested in those spells. Which brings up another good point: investing in Fist/Claw frees up Spirit Points which would otherwise be invested in the Lightning Spells (if you care to handle the close-range problem)

All in all, I love the Fisted Archer. In PVE he operates wonderfully and can handle his own very easily. And it's fun! I like being able to switch to a totally different weapon that strikes rapidly, taking advantage of my DEX attributes. Even if the Thunder spells were more efficient, I don't think I would switch. My character has character. And just how good is he in PVP? I have yet to find out. Thanks for reading. Please comment. - Captain Fury

It's not just critical percentile.

Dex is in our ranged weapon damage formula and affects more than just crit %.

I have contemplated in shifting some points in dex to str to use lunar claws and the event helm but this is only because I do not plan to be competitive in PvP.

For PvP, those 48 stat points at 90 is better spent elsewhere.

edit: 142-94=48, not 52.

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary · January 2010

Thanks...for the useful data and acting as my editor (ha-ha).

AngleSnipe - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Sure going to claws is a viable option, but really, how often are you going to grind on a monster that is inevitably going to hit you up close and tear you apart. Chances are, you are not going to. Also, as you increase in level, the monsters around you also shift to more and more magic based, thus making this claw/close range strategy pretty irrelevant. On a side note, all the metal skills suffer no penalty, and I find the winged pledge/wingspan plenty to deal full damage at close range. IMO the str needed for a decent pair of claws isnt worth it in a PVE sense, only time I would use is for keeping under the agro in bh.

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary · January 2010

You see, I never knew that about creatures at the higher levels...never been there. Valuable data. Another benefit in being a Fisted Archer is the fast gain of Chi. Beat someone up for max Chi. A few for a Spark.

What you say sounds logical. Still, the sacrifice of 48 DEX (lvl 90) still seems insignificant. My lack of experience in the higher levels makes me blind to the falls and pitraps of character build. I feel stubborn to keep my Fisted Archer. One, because it IS actually very usefull at level 56 and two, its simply fun. OK, tell me straight...is it a BIG mistake to maintain this style? Say it isn't so!

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2010

If its fun go for it. The pve in this game isn't so demanding that there is only one viable build. There is an end game fist archer build that has incredible DPS that some archers dabble in.

I will say that in higher levels full dex archers are easily able to keep even the toughest mobs at bay without being hit.

Normal mobs my level die from normal attack before getting to me and between aim low knockback and stun you can keep elite mobs at bay almost indefinitely.

Miugre - Heavens Tear · January 2010

I did the same thing you did, Fury.

One thing you will be disappointed(?) with is that, once you get to the 60s, the fist weps stop becoming nearly as useful. This is because of two things:

Almost all 60's monsters will cast at you at range, making the fists useless on them.
By the 70's you should be able to hold most monsters at bay using stun/knockback/aim low/frost, often taking no damage per mob.

I can't vouch for the 80s yet, though I can say there are a lot of melee mobs in the early 80s, so who knows... the fists may make a comeback for me.

I would invest in Annihilator of Souls (if you have the 96 Str for it) - it's an insanely cheap mold weapon and does decent damage. I still use it at 80, though its effectiveness is decreasing.

On the rare occasion I DO use the fists, I employ one of two combos:

(bow attacks until mob is close) -> Lightning Strike, switching to fists mid-cast (this is where the hotkeys you mention come in handy) -> fist attacks -> then if it's still far from dead (really unlikely), I use Wingspan (switch back to bow at this point) -> Knockback Arrow -> Stun or Aim Low.
The far simpler one if you can spare the sparks: (bow attacks until mob is close) -> Double Spark (switch to fists mid-cast) -> fist attacks until dead. At my level, I find that I almost have to use this combo in order to get decent DPS from the fists... but the result IS good DPS.

If its fun go for it. The pve in this game isn't so demanding that there is only one viable build. There is an end game fist archer build that has incredible DPS that some archers dabble in.

Has this build been written down somewhere, or is it largely just a "just make sure you can equip everything" build? What gear does it usually entail? I am interested in this.

Legerity - Sanctuary · January 2010

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...

Has this build been written down somewhere, or is it largely just a "just make sure you can equip everything" build? What gear does it usually entail? I am interested in this.

The requirements is really just stack -interval to ensure you reach 5.00atk/sec because this is the speed cap known so far (hasn't been disproven) and is the rate in which places the character in permanent triple spark.

To get to 5.00atk/sec you need an interval of 0.20sec/atk.

Fists begin at an attack rate of 0.70sec/atk.

This means you somehow have to acquire -0.50seconds of interval.

A demon archer can reach this cap with only -0.45seconds of interval since they will be placed in permanent triple spark which increases their attack rate by 25%.

It is important to note that you will get aggro unless there is a demon fist bm in the same squad. This means you must have high pdef and high hp to survive with your ridiculous dps.

Chezedude - Dreamweaver · January 2010

It is only worth it to use fists if you can reach an attack speed of at least 3.33 with demon spark in order to partially chain spark. The damage you deal with fists mainly come from the huge damage increase from sparking.

Nonsparked damage is close to what a bow would deal even at very high speeds, however the ability to chain spark increases your dps up to 3-5 times the amount dealt by a bow of similar refinement.

This option only becomes available near end game at lvl 90+ where you can use more and more -interval gears. If you cannot reach at least 3.33 attack rate in spark then stick with your bow. It is not adviced to put more strength than neccessary to equip the fist simple for more damage because as I said the huge dps resides in the extra 500% weapon damage from sparking which does not increase with strength.

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary · January 2010

OK, I did the calculation using the PWI Calculator:

Level 1 - 90 without Fists/Equipped with Blinding Radiance

STR 94 (Minimum requirement for Light Armor)
DEX 356
Physical Attack: 2887-5089
Critical Hit: 20%
Accuracy: 3008
Evasion: 2256

Level 1 - 90 using Fists/Equipped with Blinding Radiance

STR 142 (Minimum requirement for Fists)
DEX 308
Physical Attack: 2742-5584
Critical Hit: 18%
Accuracy: 2624
Evasion: 1968

The differences are very small. I'm sticking to being a Fisted Archer. No questions about it. I simply love the fact of wielding deadly fists. It really adds to the character.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Has this build been written down somewhere, or is it largely just a "just make sure you can equip everything" build? What gear does it usually entail? I am interested in this.

I've never seen a character design for the Fisted Archer. I decided on my own to try, like you.

Endrnz - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary wrote: »

In the PVE world I have been a Fisted Archer with great success. Since I'm not a PVP player I cannot vouch for this styles effectiveness. But I can say that the Fisted Archer is very fun to play.

The basic theory is as follows: Shoot the hell out of the enemy. If it happenes to reach you, punch the hell out it. And when it comes to fighting a higher level creature and you know it will inevitably reach you, what you do is shoot the hell out of it with all the stun/slow skills and anything else you desire then when it gets close activate Winged Shell then beat the snot out of it. By the time Winged Shell disappears the enemy is either dead or damn close. Be sure to have the Fist/Claw as a hotkey. helps, of course, to have the best Fist/Claw for your level.

I've discovered two main downsides to this fighting style. Both are related to the loss of DEX points which effect Critical Hit % and Evasion. But how much of this loss really effects gameplay is my main debate.

An example: At level 60 the Fisted Archer's Light Armor will require 64 STR. Equipping the fist weapon "Annihilator of Souls" requires 96 STR. The difference is 32 points. If those 32 points were put into DEX one would have an extra Critical Hit % point (every 20 points of DEX is a Crit point) and Evasion would have a boost.

By level 90 the Fisted Archer would require 94 points in STR for Light Armor and 142 STR for the Fist. The difference is 52 points, which equates to 2 1/2 Critical Hit % points. But by then, what difference does 2 1/2 points in Crit make?

I don't feel the loss in DEX makes any significantly big difference. Being able to throw a flury of blows at a close enemy is very useful and you will be poppin' Crits left and right (literally) due to your high Crit rate. But is all this useless when maybe Lightning Strike or Thunder Shock or Thunderous Blast could better handle the close-range problem of the Archer? I have yet to test this since I never invested in those spells. Which brings up another good point: investing in Fist/Claw frees up Spirit Points which would otherwise be invested in the Lightning Spells (if you care to handle the close-range problem)

All in all, I love the Fisted Archer. In PVE he operates wonderfully and can handle his own very easily. And it's fun! I like being able to switch to a totally different weapon that strikes rapidly, taking advantage of my DEX attributes. Even if the Thunder spells were more efficient, I don't think I would switch. My character has character. And just how good is he in PVP? I have yet to find out. Thanks for reading. Please comment. - Captain Fury

I see what you are trying to say, but you also said that use all you stun/slow skills before it gets to you...when I do that the monster I pretty much dead, but then again I am only 31 ATM so things might change but yeah I pretty much kill everything befor it touches me (although I do waste a SH~Tload of MP like 1 level 30 pot every 2 monsters?...so it does get damn expensive.

Also another flaw to this would be, you would be the same as an assasin using a bow then daggers to pwn when close, but I see what you are getting at...sounds cool might just try it.

BUt yeah you idea sounds awesome

, Get some life powders and beat the heck out of monster lol.

Merwen - Lost City · January 2010

I'm sorry but the title had me LOLing for hours. :X

Absoluth - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary wrote: »

Level 1 - 90 without Fists/Equipped with Blinding Radiance

STR 94 (Minimum requirement for Light Armor)
DEX 356
Physical Attack: 2887-5089
Critical Hit: 20%
Accuracy: 3008
Evasion: 2256
Level 1 - 90 using Fists/Equipped with Blinding Radiance

STR 142 (Minimum requirement for Fists)
DEX 308
Physical Attack: 2742-5584
Critical Hit: 18%
Accuracy: 2624
Evasion: 1968

So if you drop 50 points off dex, you only get 100 less min and 500 more max dmg?
Either you checked the numbers incorrectly or the calc fails big time.

Quilue - Sanctuary · January 2010

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary wrote: »

OK, I did the calculation using the PWI Calculator:
Level 1 - 90 without Fists/Equipped with Blinding Radiance

STR 94 (Minimum requirement for Light Armor)
DEX 356
Physical Attack: 2887-5089
Critical Hit: 20%
Accuracy: 3008
Evasion: 2256
Level 1 - 90 using Fists/Equipped with Blinding Radiance

STR 142 (Minimum requirement for Fists)
DEX 308
Physical Attack: 2742-5584
Critical Hit: 18%
Accuracy: 2624
Evasion: 1968

The differences are very small. I'm sticking to being a Fisted Archer. No questions about it. I simply love the fact of wielding deadly fists. It really adds to the character.

I've never seen a character design for the Fisted Archer. I decided on my own to try, like you.

um that looks really really low...the base damage for wielding BR that is...are you sure you included mastery?

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary · January 2010

Absoluth - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So if you drop 50 points off dex, you only get 100 less min and 500 more max dmg?
Either you checked the numbers incorrectly or the calc fails big time.

Check it yourself. Makes sense to me. After all, your investing STR which would naturally increase damage.

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary · January 2010

Merwen - Lost City wrote: »

I'm sorry but the title had me LOLing for hours. :X

LOL, no sh#t. What's a better title for the "fisted" Archer?

poohthemagicbear · January 2010

Only worth if you have this items,if not,its not worth wearing fists due to low attack speed,so needed items:-0,10 interval armor
-0,10 interval fists
Asura(HH99) Wrists=-0,10 interval between hits
Asura Boots/Legs(HH99)=-0,05 interval between hits(as benefit of having 2 pieces of HH99 Asura armor)
=with this gear your attack speed will be 3,33atk/s,5,00atk/s(which is max possible attack speed)after demon spark.

Keep in mind that with lower attack speed this build is not as usefull due to low dps.So this build is highly recommended only to lvl99+ archers,or maybe 95+ if you manage to get some compensation for Asura gear and still have same attack speed.Im not sure how much -0,10 interval armors are there in game,Ive seen only rank8 armor with that stat,i know that is very hard to get but im sure that there are few rank 8s on at least Lost City server...so far im sure ive seen Nupayne and Yoshiki wearing that armor.

Hope it helped.

EDIT:Ya,i know my account name sounds lameb:surrender

Smobo - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary wrote: »

Check it yourself. Makes sense to me. After all, your investing STR which would naturally increase damage.

I'm pretty sure str doesn't increase bow damage.

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary · January 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

um that looks really really low...the base damage for wielding BR that is...are you sure you included mastery?

I didn't calculate any skills, modifiers, etc. Just base numbers. Why don't you do the calculations yourself and see that it is correct? I'm curious.

Quilue - Sanctuary · January 2010

it's not going to be exactly the same as pwcalc.ru, there is a small discrepancy, and the site is down atm anyway.

BR unrefined: 670-1562 (you're also forgetting about BR's addons)

no masteries

with 356 dex:
(90 + 670 + 100)*(1 + 356/150) = 2901.07 min
(90 + 1562 + 100)*(1 + 356/150) = 5910.08 max

with 308 dex:
(90 + 670 + 100)*(1 + 308/150) = 2625.87 min
(90 + 1562 + 100)*(1 + 308/150) = 5349.44 max

makes more sense than what you have...lol less dex = moar max hit somehow?

the truth is it doesn't lower your base by horrifically much, difference is like an attack ring more or less. then again, why do you refine, shard, and equip better arrows? it kind of adds up.

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary · January 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

makes more sense than what you have...lol less dex = moar max hit?

You forgot to add the STR of 142. The Calculator added higher damage when STR was entered. Not just DEX.

Smobo - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

makes more sense than what you have...lol less dex = moar max hit?

Damnit, and I was about to go buy some reset stones to make my dex 3.b:cry

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary · January 2010

Does STR add Bow damage or not? I never noticed. The Calculator adds damage to the bow when STR and DEX are entered.

Smobo - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Heres me:
Bow damage (101 str): 5105-8481
Bow damage (94 str): 5105-8481

It seems removing my bracers does not affect my damage. (the dps is a different story)

Illyana - Dreamweaver · January 2010

One thing to note here is the difference between sage and demon fist archers; the requirement for reaching the magic 5 hits/second for demon is of course easier as trip spark and -.45 reduction works to bring you to 5 hits/second.

The only way a sage archer can get to the full 5 hits/second is to have rank 8 armor for that final .05 reduction. Then, of course, you'll hit 5 times a second without spark, and when you do spark you'll have the permanent reduction in damage taken. With top gear, a sage archer is better suited for both PvE and PvP fist builds. Also note, Blazing Arrow damage still applies to your fists, too... benefit sage.

Quilue - Sanctuary · January 2010

blazing arrow applies to fist? have you tried punching a fire immune boss?

and realistically, 4 attacks/s allows you to triple spark continuously anyway

Illyana - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

blazing arrow applies to fist? have you tried punching a fire immune boss?

and realistically, 4 attacks/s allows you to triple spark continuously anyway

Yes, blazing arrow adds to fist weapons, too. (shhh!)

I guess the point isn't to stop at 4/second when of course 5 is possible. Yes, I know how hard 200k rep is to acquire b:surrender

Smobo - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Yes, but if both are hitting the cap (if thats possible), sage is better. Demon spark speed doesn't help you anymore, where as sage def does.

Now I need to write my will before Devoted sees I typed the words "sage is better" on the archer forums. -flees-

Quilue - Sanctuary · January 2010

^

uhhh only if you stick to fists, and only fists. anyone else thinking 8jun + maxed interval gear + demon is still good for ranged weapons?

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary wrote: »

Does STR add Bow damage or not? I never noticed. The Calculator adds damage to the bow when STR and DEX are entered.

reroll an archer, go +5 strength when you level up, see if that does anything to your bow damage.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes, blazing arrow adds to fist weapons, too. (shhh!)

I guess the point isn't to stop at 4/second when of course 5 is possible. Yes, I know how hard 200k rep is to acquire b:surrender

Hold on, Lady Legerity said it does not apply, here: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=4977242&postcount=12

Is there evidence to the contrary?

Illyana - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Hold on, Lady Legerity said it does not apply, here: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=4977242&postcount=12

Is there evidence to the contrary?

Let me get back to you on this; I'd rather be sure.

THE FISTED ARCHER: Theory and Discussion

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