THE FISTED ARCHER: Theory and Discussion

Quilue - Sanctuary

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

That would be 4, not 3.33, no?

edit: actually, I think it may be 3.33 if I truncate and round off the value.

4/s is perma-spark anyway legypoo...wait we do get 5 chi a hit right?

edit: *yawn* a little slow oops

Kasumi - Dreamweaver

3.33/sec will get you 5/sec sparked.

4/sec will get you 5/sec sparked also.

That is if you're demon.

Chezedude - Dreamweaver

Kasumi - Dreamweaver wrote: »

3.33/sec will get you 5/sec sparked.

4/sec will get you 5/sec sparked also.

That is if you're demon.

I like pie.

Mage_Fizban - Dreamweaver

time to restat and use fists.

Drsok - Harshlands

Captain_Fury - Sanctuary wrote: »

In the PVE world I have been a Fisted Archer with great success. Since I'm not a PVP player I cannot vouch for this styles effectiveness. But I can say that the Fisted Archer is very fun to play.

The basic theory is as follows: Shoot the hell out of the enemy. If it happenes to reach you, punch the hell out it. And when it comes to fighting a higher level creature and you know it will inevitably reach you, what you do is shoot the hell out of it with all the stun/slow skills and anything else you desire then when it gets close activate Winged Shell then beat the snot out of it. By the time Winged Shell disappears the enemy is either dead or damn close. Be sure to have the Fist/Claw as a hotkey. helps, of course, to have the best Fist/Claw for your level.

I've discovered two main downsides to this fighting style. Both are related to the loss of DEX points which effect Critical Hit % and Evasion. But how much of this loss really effects gameplay is my main debate.

An example: At level 60 the Fisted Archer's Light Armor will require 64 STR. Equipping the fist weapon "Annihilator of Souls" requires 96 STR. The difference is 32 points. If those 32 points were put into DEX one would have an extra Critical Hit % point (every 20 points of DEX is a Crit point) and Evasion would have a boost.

By level 90 the Fisted Archer would require 94 points in STR for Light Armor and 142 STR for the Fist. The difference is 52 points, which equates to 2 1/2 Critical Hit % points. But by then, what difference does 2 1/2 points in Crit make?

I don't feel the loss in DEX makes any significantly big difference. Being able to throw a flury of blows at a close enemy is very useful and you will be poppin' Crits left and right (literally) due to your high Crit rate. But is all this useless when maybe Lightning Strike or Thunder Shock or Thunderous Blast could better handle the close-range problem of the Archer? I have yet to test this since I never invested in those spells. Which brings up another good point: investing in Fist/Claw frees up Spirit Points which would otherwise be invested in the Lightning Spells (if you care to handle the close-range problem)

All in all, I love the Fisted Archer. In PVE he operates wonderfully and can handle his own very easily. And it's fun! I like being able to switch to a totally different weapon that strikes rapidly, taking advantage of my DEX attributes. Even if the Thunder spells were more efficient, I don't think I would switch. My character has character. And just how good is he in PVP? I have yet to find out. Thanks for reading. Please comment. - Captain Fury

that could be a good aoe build if u have spark blast, wing spand, wing shell, a cheep bow, thunderous blast, wings of grace, and anyother good stun attack

i think u can do this alot with aoe but in not sure for soloing bosses

i could make a build for this if u want me to

Archers_Soul - Lost City

why make a fist archer when you can just make a fist bm? plz explain.

Quilue - Sanctuary

i heard fists got restricted to bm only in Chinese servers

maybe enough QQ can bring it back...like how they did briefly make pet bleed have PvP reduction but brought it back in Chinese servers.

TigerLily - Lost City

Archers_Soul - Lost City wrote: »

why make a fist archer when you can just make a fist bm? plz explain.

LOL i really wanna know that to

Not like archers have the weapon mastery or skills for fists + they also have shietty hp and all around defense compared to bms. They obv still have massive DPS since endgame claws are beast but its still kinda like making a nerfed BM b:surrender

Sylvae - Sanctuary

.3 interval is all that is needed to get -.1 interval bonus from demon spark. Don't truncate, as on other speed buffs it can give incorrect results. .020 - .025 would work, .026 - .029 would give wrong results.

Commercial rounding I think has messed up the meaning of rounding down/up. Mathematically it was taught that you round to closest, if it is in between is the only time it rounds. In this case, middle rounds down in the interval to the benefit of the player.

4 APS should not be giving perma-spark. I think people are basing it off of 15 secs * 5 chi * 4 attacks for a total of 300 chi (3 sparks). Problem is, you do the power of greyskull pose for 3 secs of channeling, and the buffs apply shortly after you spark. So at most you only have 13 secs of usable attack time, likely a bit above 12, and still have to make sure you get your attack command to cancel the aftercast time of the spark. So you're looking at needing 5 APS to actually get it.

The DPS of fist archer will be worth it, but the issue becomes finding a tank who can compensate to keep aggro from swapping over. They might be able to do it themself, but LA typically would make me leery of survivability in high end instances.

Legerity - Sanctuary

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

...

4 APS should not be giving perma-spark. I think people are basing it off of 15 secs * 5 chi * 4 attacks for a total of 300 chi (3 sparks). Problem is, you do the power of greyskull pose for 3 secs of channeling, and the buffs apply shortly after you spark. So at most you only have 13 secs of usable attack time, likely a bit above 12, and still have to make sure you get your attack command to cancel the aftercast time of the spark. So you're looking at needing 5 APS to actually get it.

...

The 4aps is for demons who spark for the reduction in interval which reaches 5adps.

Though it could even be 3.33aps to reach 5aps after demon spark. Even with 12seconds of spark time, 5aps will allow perma demon spark at 3.33aps normal (of course sage needs to make up for it with more base -interval because their spark is reduce incoming damage, not increasing attack speed).

Let's just wait for the class restrictions to come to PWI and all this nonsense talk will be off the Archer forums.

Peacefulelf - Dreamweaver

Lol theres like a lvl 98 archer on DW that uses lunar fists and drops barbs his lvl b:shocked Of course he is a massive CS

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

The 4aps is for demons who spark for the reduction in interval which reaches 5adps.

Though it could even be 3.33aps to reach 5aps after demon spark. Even with 12seconds of spark time, 5aps will allow perma demon spark at 3.33aps normal (of course sage needs to make up for it with more base -interval because their spark is reduce incoming damage, not increasing attack speed).

Let's just wait for the class restrictions to come to PWI and all this nonsense talk will be off the Archer forums.

3.33 APS (.3 interval) (-.4 interval from gear) is the point when perma-spark can be reach with demon spark.

4APS (.25 interval) (-.45 interval from gear) (Windshield spam) perma-spark for those with sage spark. Any 10% speed buff + will do.

Anytime demon spark is referenced, there is no reason to mention 4 APS, as it has no value for knowledge reasons. Demon breakpoint to remember is 3.33 APS. It's the people that brought up 4 APS that the post was addressed to as not being perma-spark, since the only thing I could figure was they meant after demon spark.

Hope they don't make fists/claws BM only, planned on having my barb and an alternate build heavy veno grind up that way for fun. Can use the hand me downs from my BM. Veno seemed interesting, as if it can work it technically is capable of the higest DPS, since their weapon proficiency is 120%; at least, it seems that way according to the skill. Sucks can't go foxform with them.

Legerity - Sanctuary

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

3.33 APS (.3 interval) (-.4 interval from gear) is the point when perma-spark can be reach with demon spark.

4APS (.25 interval) (-.45 interval from gear) (Windshield spam) perma-spark for those with sage spark. Any 10% speed buff + will do.

Anytime demon spark is referenced, there is no reason to mention 4 APS, as it has no value for knowledge reasons. Demon breakpoint to remember is 3.33 APS. It's the people that brought up 4 APS that the post was addressed to as not being perma-spark, since the only thing I could figure was they meant after demon spark.

...

Makes sense. It's just your post didn't really quote anything so it seemed rather "random". I went with the safer assumption of 4aps=5aps under demon spark previously, which has been corrected a few times (and I even corrected myself before anyone did that it was in fact 3.33aps).

But I suppose the whole "round down at half way point between intervals to the benefit of the player" explains the discrepancies in a simpler way, rather than truncate etc.

I don't think anyone mentioned 4dps = permaspark without speaking in terms of sparking in their post with or without quoting previous replies.

Valirah - Sanctuary

Archers_Soul - Lost City wrote: »

why make a fist archer when you can just make a fist bm? plz explain.

Because it's fun.

I like being a primarily ranged fighter with the capability of going melee, and do well at both.


I seriously hope that fists don't go BM only, I'm just getting used to my new ones.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

We have trouble verifying that fists are BM only; the patch notes for the Chinese server do not indicate this change and I cannot get on to verify it.

Luckycat - Dreamweaver

Just an example of what a demon archer with the right amount of interval hits can do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pbj90j0uz8

I think barb was 90+ with high refines and +12 TT90 gold axes.

Wolfgore - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

i heard fists got restricted to bm only in Chinese servers

maybe enough QQ can bring it back...like how they did briefly make pet bleed have PvP reduction but brought it back in Chinese servers.

Tried to verify it, can't.
It also sounds stupid to restrict fists only to BMs after so many years they run on chinesse servers. They got lvl100+ toons a lot before we did, so what could happen all of a sudden?

PLUS, claws got beast DPS BUT only BMs can really support it in PK. The barb in the posted video is a complete idiot...idk about his refines...simply moving a bit STOPS fists DDing. Extreme stun locking is needed to actually make em viable THUS its to BMs advantage. They also got mastery and fist skills.

Anyway, think of all those ppl that have bought Fists, have highly refined em and made their build BASED on em. Not only we'll have a useless +10 weapon but a lot of UBER expensive armor pieces too, not to mention the restat.

IF something like this happens, ppl should actually DEMAND to get a refund on the **** load of money they used.
Imagine PW stating one day: Light Armor is restricted to Archers/ Assassins...

Sry for my rant, but i actually use fists and got somewhat upset about it b:laugh (and before you flame a barb using fists take a look at this post: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=553941)

/end highjacking archers forum

Varscona - Sanctuary

Luckycat - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Just an example of what a demon archer with the right amount of interval hits can do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pbj90j0uz8

I think barb was 90+ with high refines and +12 TT90 gold axes.

do people usually stand their ground when someone triple sparks or something?

o.O

Bobzl - Sanctuary

Varscona - Sanctuary wrote: »

do people usually stand their ground when someone triple sparks or something?

o.O

if it was hard to see, the archer use the genie skill stunning blow (its archer only) which freezes the target for 6 or seconds or so right when she demon sparked

Varscona - Sanctuary

he was there far longer than the freeze's duration. see what Kasumi does when he sage sparks? she ****ing moves. i mean that barb could at least turn human and try to stun her if he was going to stand there.

if he activates beastial rage while she's hitting with non-sparked normal attacks he will most certainly have 3 sparks before she gets to. Then he can try onslaught, stun, ToP, arma or something.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

That's the beauty of that archer-only genie skill. At first glance, it looks like a great way to evade a barb or BM. In reality, its a perfect way to keep a barb or a BM closer while avoiding stuns. I don't know when that video was taken, but I don't think Kasumi has her claws above +5 to this day. Ginabomb, however, is really quite decked out.

Technotic - Sanctuary

I don't know... If you're going to make someone that uses fists, might as well pick someone with fist skills... (bm)

Valirah - Sanctuary

Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't know... If you're going to make someone that uses fists, might as well pick someone with fist skills... (bm)

Why? It's not like fist BMs rely on skills to make the fist option work, its all about attack speed with normal attacks.

With no mastery and mediocre refines/shards on my fists, I still out DPS most BMs I squad with. My HA build works especially well with fists, providing high damage output with reduced damage intake while in melee range.


Has anyone gotten any further confirmation on that Fists -> BM-only rumor? I'm sitting on a pair of elemental gems that I'd like to socket but I'd like to be sure it won't be something that i won't be able to use in a short while.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Valirah - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why? It's not like fist BMs rely on skills to make the fist option work, its all about attack speed with normal attacks.

With no mastery and mediocre refines/shards on my fists, I still out DPS most BMs I squad with. My HA build works especially well with fists, providing high damage output with reduced damage intake while in melee range.


Has anyone gotten any further confirmation on that Fists -> BM-only rumor? I'm sitting on a pair of elemental gems that I'd like to socket but I'd like to be sure it won't be something that i won't be able to use in a short while.

I have often considered making a high level alabaster shard and putting it into my fists; specifically as a sage, the lengthy metal debuff and the fists would make for some serious carnage PvP wise.

Telarith - Sanctuary

While having a elemental shard may not be an issue for low str users, once you factor in spark's large multiple it won't even come close to a lower grade phys atk gem. So if you're planning on using spark, wouldn't be worth it.

Quilue - Sanctuary

i think they want to use it against heavy classes mostly, so how would the massively increased physical damage from garnet compare to elemental shards?

but imo you cannot stand against a similarly equipped bm with your fists. they have longer stuns, more hp, and their 79 and 100 skills are very strong.

Illyana - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

i think they want to use it against heavy classes mostly, so how would the massively increased physical damage from garnet compare to elemental shards?

but imo you cannot stand against a similarly equipped bm with your fists. they have longer stuns, more hp, and their 79 and 100 skills are very strong.

Without driving this thing too far off topic...

Upon further reflection, it'd be silly to add a metal shard as you couldn't really take advantage of the dmg increase from spark, as posted above. It'd be a novel thing to try though.

Qui, you're right-- I wouldn't think it'd be wise to go up to a comparably equipped BM. However, this is not the case since archer rank armor has -hit interval on it and BMs don't... in all likelihood, you won't be going up against a comparably equipped BM.

My character is far from finished along the path of bow/fist hybrid archer; to date I've only an attack rate of 3.33 APS (4 with wind shield) and since I'm sage I don't benefit from having that topped off at 5 with a spark. However, archers do have significant advantage over BMs in real world application. Specifically, it takes some time for them to get to you, allowing for a sharpen and a complete metal chain before they even reach you.

When they do reach you, you pop wings of grace. The BM is typically dead before you are. For added effect, added wood apoc before the close-encounter drops them much faster.

Technotic - Sanctuary

Your attack rate is 3.33? Or did I read that wrong?

Legerity - Sanctuary

Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »

Your attack rate is 3.33? Or did I read that wrong?

3.33 with fists. What are you trying to get at here?

Technotic - Sanctuary

Still seems high to me. With fists + demon spark I can't get over 2...