THE FISTED ARCHER: Theory and Discussion

124

Comments

  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Still seems high to me. With fists + demon spark I can't get over 2...

    Understanding interval would likely help explain how you can increase your attack rate.

    3.33 is very possible. In fact, I will also have 3.33 when I become 99, 5 with demon spark.
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Still seems high to me. With fists + demon spark I can't get over 2...

    You lack -hit gear.

    Decide Lunar claws gives .1 interval
    Rank 6 Armor gives .05
    Love Up & Down gives .05
    Lunar Glade Cape gives .05
    Lionheart TT99 Ornament combo gives .05
    TT90 Gold bracers gives .1

    Total reduction: .4

    Claw base interval to atk is .7; making my true atk interval .3; flush that out and you'll see that I've 3.33 APS.... until I can finish my TT99 bracer/legging combo.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Deicides = 0.60 sec / attack
    Event Tome = -0.05
    Event Cape = -0.05
    TT99 Wrist = -0.10
    TT99 LA Set = -0.05
    TT99 HA Set = -0.05
    Rank 8 Top = -0.10

    This comes out to an attack interval of 0.20 sec / attack, which is equivalent to an attack speed of 5 attacks per second.

    Replacing the Rank 8 Chest with Rank 4 Chest results in 4 attacks / second.
    Further removing the tome, cape, or one of the set bonuses would result in 3.33 attacks / sec.

    EDIT: Beaten by Lady Illyana herself.
  • Technotic - Sanctuary
    Technotic - Sanctuary Posts: 591 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Not level 99 yet XD
    Say my name 3 times, I dare you.

    ~Technotic
    TrueMyths.Guildplex.com
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Not level 99 yet XD

    At level 95, claws/fists become a viable option for archers because they have access to the lunar cape. You can use TT90 gold general's bracers and you can reach 3.33 unsparked.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Technotic - Sanctuary
    Technotic - Sanctuary Posts: 591 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I have general bracers, but I barely pull off enough strength to hold my armor. If it wasn't for Tome and Cape, i'd be screwed. Stats without armor: 3 vit, 3 mag, ~80 str, 400+ dex

    3.33 looks pretty sexy XD Wish I had that with my slingshot
    Say my name 3 times, I dare you.

    ~Technotic
    TrueMyths.Guildplex.com
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I have general bracers, but I barely pull off enough strength to hold my armor. If it wasn't for Tome and Cape, i'd be screwed. Stats without armor: 3 vit, 3 mag, ~80 str, 400+ dex

    I believe if you actually take the time to understand the effects of -interval gear, you will become addicted to it.

    I highly recommend you do some research in this field. The results will be impressive, much more so that I dare say better than your current setup.
  • Technotic - Sanctuary
    Technotic - Sanctuary Posts: 591 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I set my avatar up to have extremely high crit. After that comes interval, then damage. At level 99 I am definitely getting TT99 gear for higher interval and crit. I'm at about .8 attack rate right now with 42% crit. My physical damage is only ~10k though.
    Say my name 3 times, I dare you.

    ~Technotic
    TrueMyths.Guildplex.com
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I set my avatar up to have extremely high crit. After that comes interval, then damage. At level 99 I am definitely getting TT99 gear for higher interval and crit. I'm at about .8 attack rate right now with 42% crit. My physical damage is only ~10k though.

    I think it'd be more clear when you normalise and compare crit vs interval.

    This is usually done by calculating the damage per second you inflict.

    -interval becomes more and more ridiculous as it becomes stacked, while crit is just a linear +x% of your DPS.
  • Technotic - Sanctuary
    Technotic - Sanctuary Posts: 591 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    We just keep jumping back and forth between 2 threads XD

    Hi my name is Tech ~Pleased to meet yah

    Anyways, I like it because I would use Stunning arrow and Quickshot or Demon Spark with Stunning Arrow for my bigger hits. I find with stunning arrow, I crit more than regular hits. We calculated it before. My goal was to get 51%+ Crit when I started this archer XD
    Say my name 3 times, I dare you.

    ~Technotic
    TrueMyths.Guildplex.com
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »
    We just keep jumping back and forth between 2 threads XD

    Hi my name is Tech ~Pleased to meet yah

    Anyways, I like it because I would use Stunning arrow and Quickshot or Demon Spark with Stunning Arrow for my bigger hits. I find with stunning arrow, I crit more than regular hits. We calculated it before. My goal was to get 51%+ Crit when I started this archer XD

    So I've noticed we have been alternating threads.

    Nice to meet you too. =)

    If you want to maximise damage per second, I would heavily lean towards stacking -interval. You can reach 0.95 attacks a second with a bow (or 1.05 with a sling) and still have very high crit without spending what insanely rich players spend.

    Fist weapon wise, the crit should be bypassed in place of more -interval.
  • Technotic - Sanctuary
    Technotic - Sanctuary Posts: 591 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    You brought up a really good piece of information earlier that got me researching stuff. With neclace and belt of lion, I get -0.5 interval correct? Or is it 4 pieces?
    Say my name 3 times, I dare you.

    ~Technotic
    TrueMyths.Guildplex.com
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »
    You brought up a really good piece of information earlier that got me researching stuff. With neclace and belt of lion, I get -0.5 interval correct? Or is it 4 pieces?

    You only need 2 lionheart pieces for the extra -0.05 interval.

    Usually archers go for the 2 lionheart ornaments i.e necklace and belt.

    Just being in TT99 with the slightly adjusted 2 lionhearts give a total of -0.2seconds interval. It's a very very good additional imo.
  • Technotic - Sanctuary
    Technotic - Sanctuary Posts: 591 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Yeah, I never thought about that. They both have crit so thats good. All my gear has crit with it. and I don't really need the +10% accuracy from ashura, I have 7.5k already. So I could do lion nec and belt, then ashura pants and chest. :D
    Say my name 3 times, I dare you.

    ~Technotic
    TrueMyths.Guildplex.com
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I was crunching numbers with regard to APS and "effective" APS when counting sparking.

    For those demons in the midst, these figures do not include an increase during your spark. I could figure them out later, but right now I'm feeling lazy b:chuckle

    3.33 APS:
    Sparked APS:2.38095238095238 + Unsparked APS:0.47619047619048

    4 APS:
    Sparked: 3.33333333333333

    5 APS:
    Sparked: 4.16666666666667

    What does this mean? Essentially people might want to calculate Average cycle DPS. A cycle involves building three sparks and attacking for the duration.

    At 3.33 APS, you essentially need to hit for 18 seconds to build a spark, spark for three seconds and then you get 15 seconds of sparked damage. Run these figures over time and you'll get these figures.

    At 4 APS, you reach "permaspark", which means if you've excellent timing, you can always remain in spark because you'll always have built enough chi during 15 seconds that you can simply spark again. These are again average figures over time-- you will not spark exactly when you have three sparks because there is client/server lag.

    At 5 APS, you're permaspark and you actually gain additional chi during the attack cycle. This means that when you combine the time it takes to spark (and do not spark until your spark runs out!) you have an effective 4.16666666666667 APS. Simply calculate your damage per hit and use this as your attack rate.

    Some people question the effectiveness of an archer stacking -hit interval gear. When you calculate your true DPS, an archer exceeds the damage that can be done with a bow at 3.33 APS with a comparably refined and sharded claw/fist. For Demon Archers, this value is lower.

    To give you an idea what you can do with a mere .05 interval after 3.33...

    .05 more yields about 31.5% more DPS
    .1 more yields about 64.3% more DPS

    Compared to the 95 lunar bow, at least with my build, .05 more DPS only yields 4.75% more damage and .1 more yields roughly 10% more damage.

    Anyhow, for those who still ask why an archer should or shouldn't use a claw/fist at end game... well, because it lets you pump out insane DPS.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Technotic - Sanctuary
    Technotic - Sanctuary Posts: 591 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    1: Way too much to bother to read
    2: Way too many numbers
    3: Way to go at ruining our bonding time QQ

    BUT!!! from what i've read, can you really get 5 attack rate? I'd love to have permaspark with slingshot :O
    Say my name 3 times, I dare you.

    ~Technotic
    TrueMyths.Guildplex.com
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »
    1: Way too much to bother to read
    2: Way too many numbers
    3: Way to go at ruining our bonding time QQ

    BUT!!! from what i've read, can you really get 5 attack rate? I'd love to have permaspark with slingshot :O

    You cannot permaspark with slingshot.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Technotic - Sanctuary
    Technotic - Sanctuary Posts: 591 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Well duh, that was just a fantasy.
    Say my name 3 times, I dare you.

    ~Technotic
    TrueMyths.Guildplex.com
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    ...

    Anyhow, for those who still ask why an archer should or shouldn't use a claw/fist at end game... well, because it lets you pump out insane DPS.

    For those who do plan to go this path, I do believe they need really really high PDef.

    @Technotic:
    No, 5attacks a second only is available to daggers/fist/claws.
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »
    For those who do plan to go this path, I do believe they need really really high PDef.

    Or are sage sparking.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Smobo - Heavens Tear
    Smobo - Heavens Tear Posts: 386 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »
    So I could do lion nec and belt, then ashura pants and chest. :D

    If you really want to have high attack speed, I'd suggest getting your -0.05 interval LA bonus without needing your chest armour. That way you can throw on a rank 4/6/8 chest and have even faster attacks.

    However, if you're only rank 4 (5k rep) , I'd having a chest piece of higher level, since rank 4 is only on par with 3 star 7x gear. Rank 6 (35k rep) is on par with 3 star 90 gear, which may be strong enough defense wise to always be worn.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Or are sage sparking.

    In that case, they'd just need a big wallet.

    Something interesting I just thought of is this:

    Demon Archers save a lot of coin achieving the cap speed, but they need to spend it on pdef refines to make use of the DPS.

    Sage Archers save a lot of coin by not needing to heavily refine their pdef orns, but they need to spend that coin in -interval items.

    How they compare I do not know.. but should be easily calculated with some effort.
  • Technotic - Sanctuary
    Technotic - Sanctuary Posts: 591 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »
    For those who do plan to go this path, I do believe they need really really high PDef.

    @Technotic:
    No, 5attacks a second only is available to daggers/fist/claws.

    I know, makes me want to work on my fist bm again... or maybe... an assassin.... :O Overpowered little freaks... I have a level 34 assassin when it came out and I just couldn't get into it.
    Smobo - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you really want to have high dps, I'd suggest getting your -0.05 interval LA bonus without needing your chest armour. That way you can throw on a rank 4/6/8 chest and have even faster attacks.

    Oh I know, thats the plan. But I make money fast enough where I can throw away that kinda armor. I hope to get rank 8 but I heard thats like 200k... I'm at 4k.... yay...
    Say my name 3 times, I dare you.

    ~Technotic
    TrueMyths.Guildplex.com
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Technotic - Sanctuary wrote: »
    ...

    Oh I know, thats the plan. But I make money fast enough where I can throw away that kinda armor. I hope to get rank 8 but I heard thats like 200k... I'm at 4k.... yay...

    TT99 chest costs around 70m to make on this server. A cheaper alternative is TT99 wrist and legs, and having rank 4 or 6 chest armor.
  • Technotic - Sanctuary
    Technotic - Sanctuary Posts: 591 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Thats not a bad idea. I already have most of what I need for TT99 Legs. I was thinking of getting bracers but I don't know if it's the best. I want the best equipment without having to get 100k+ rep. But I did see someone with chest that had -0.5 interval, which is what i'm going to go for with rank.

    *I have class so i'll be on later*
    Say my name 3 times, I dare you.

    ~Technotic
    TrueMyths.Guildplex.com
  • Telarith - Sanctuary
    Telarith - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    One thing I am unsure of, is why the archer forum is so for the Deicide weapon. Even BMs are usually better off with Gorenox, it is only at late interval levels that the extra attack speed of Deicide will swing favor towards it.

    Gorenox has a proc that adds to damage (great for lower str fisters), while also healing the person wielding them. With lots of attacks, this can translate into a good amount of healing for the assist DD to heal up from AoE's catching them. Makes the party run smoother without requiring the cleric to stop to heal them. Also, it is 12 str less req, meaning less removed from dex for the purpose of assisted high DD.

    Now the other thing is refinement. While Deicides can eventually gain more damage (without counting APS) through high refinement levels to counter the str and proc of Gorenox, why would you want to? Deicide's only gain -.05 over Gorenox, which is less a concern for archers who can make up for that in class armor. Also, Deicides are a component for making eventual end game fist of Nirvana claws. These claws have the same proc as Gorenox, and an advanced version, with extra adds that will make them a better weapon than Deicide. And the Deicide proc itself is totally worthless to an archer.

    So if possible, a better path might be to use Gorenox as main fist weapon until it is possible to craft a Nirvana weapon with at least -.05 interval as an add. This will require more -interval than with Deicide, but it will also be more useful and not waste refinements on a weapon just getting upgraded anyways. And if not that serious about fists, again, Gorenox will be more damaging thanks to its proc and the easier time archer's will have in still getting 5 APS.
    Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura

    Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx

    :NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    but archers that consider fists are already at late -interval levels. I don't think anyone would touch upon fists until geared up with TT99 anyway. Also, some are sage archers without the benefit of demon spark's attack speed; if they want to permaspark like they're talking about in this thread, they'd need as much -interval as they can get. Upgrading to Nirvana isn't really a problem even if you do lose refines. It's always possible to just buy a new pair and upgrade while selling off the refined claws just as you'd sell off a Gorenox when getting Nirvana claws.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
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  • Telarith - Sanctuary
    Telarith - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    but archers that consider fists are already at late -interval levels.

    If they are late, they likely have already maximized -interval for their bows as well. Meaning they should have 5 APS whether with Deicide or Gorenox, which leaves only high refinement levels on Deicide the only way it can beat Gorenox damage, and it will still not be able to self-heal the way Gorenox can.
    Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura

    Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx

    :NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.
  • Illyana - Dreamweaver
    Illyana - Dreamweaver Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »
    One thing I am unsure of, is why the archer forum is so for the Deicide weapon. Even BMs are usually better off with Gorenox, it is only at late interval levels that the extra attack speed of Deicide will swing favor towards it.

    Gorenox has a proc that adds to damage (great for lower str fisters), while also healing the person wielding them. With lots of attacks, this can translate into a good amount of healing for the assist DD to heal up from AoE's catching them. Makes the party run smoother without requiring the cleric to stop to heal them. Also, it is 12 str less req, meaning less removed from dex for the purpose of assisted high DD.

    Now the other thing is refinement. While Deicides can eventually gain more damage (without counting APS) through high refinement levels to counter the str and proc of Gorenox, why would you want to? Deicide's only gain -.05 over Gorenox, which is less a concern for archers who can make up for that in class armor. Also, Deicides are a component for making eventual end game fist of Nirvana claws. These claws have the same proc as Gorenox, and an advanced version, with extra adds that will make them a better weapon than Deicide. And the Deicide proc itself is totally worthless to an archer.

    So if possible, a better path might be to use Gorenox as main fist weapon until it is possible to craft a Nirvana weapon with at least -.05 interval as an add. This will require more -interval than with Deicide, but it will also be more useful and not waste refinements on a weapon just getting upgraded anyways. And if not that serious about fists, again, Gorenox will be more damaging thanks to its proc and the easier time archer's will have in still getting 5 APS.
    The reason why Gorenox is not a viable archer DPS weapon is because hit interval is key in making the build pump out more DPS than a bow. When you're scratching for every last bit of .05 gear, every .05 adds tremendous benefit. Decide and TT100 fists both have the .1 off the top and is necessary, otherwise a bow will do more damage over time. One of these days I'll make a DPS graph to illustrate this.

    While strength is the damage multiplier in a claw/fist build and not dex, it does not significantly increase damage over a dex-end build, particularly because crits offset this very well. The secret to making fists a viable weapon for an archer (and any class that is not a BM) is chi building and sparking.
    5.0 "Pure" 8jun Sage Clawrcher of Dreamweaver
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Illyana - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    The reason why Gorenox is not a viable archer DPS weapon is because hit interval is key in making the build pump out more DPS than a bow. When you're scratching for every last bit of .05 gear, every .05 adds tremendous benefit. Decide and TT100 fists both have the .1 off the top and is necessary, otherwise a bow will do more damage over time. One of these days I'll make a DPS graph to illustrate this.

    While strength is the damage multiplier in a claw/fist build and not dex, it does not significantly increase damage over a dex-end build, particularly because crits offset this very well. The secret to making fists a viable weapon for an archer (and any class that is not a BM) is chi building and sparking.

    I think what Telarith says only really applies to Demon Archers since they only need a true attack rate of 3.33 to permaspark which could be easily obtained in comparison to their Sage counterparts.

    For 3.33, it only requires -0.4interval. TT99 already gives -0.2. Couple this with the two event items is another -0.1 and the last -0.05 is made up from rank 4/6 chest and -0.05 from Gorenox.

    It's an alternative for Demon Archers really... however for Sage Archers, they need an additional -0.1 interval. This is usually made up from rank 8 chest and TT100/CV95 (which only happens at 100). The only redundant part is nirvana leggings and most likely they'd try for Nirvana Fists/Claws if they had such resources.

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