In-depth Robe vs. Light armor analysis

2

Comments

  • SurferGirl - Dreamweaver
    SurferGirl - Dreamweaver Posts: 415 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    i was lazy to fully read that wall text but i saw the stat image of LA and robe and i gotta say its a complete BS lol the robe wiz at 101 has 6xx deff not buffed. even i at 88 got 1.5k deff not buffed and thats even before having my 90 lunar cape and 90 tt gear with p deff shards atm i use pure hp shards and at 95 with the lunar rings ima have close to 3k deff unbuffed @_@ how the hell a 101 got only 6xx lol if u ask me that ''guide'' is useless

    oh and btw what the hell is that magic dmg? >.> a 101 wiz la or robe should pass 4k magic dmg at that lvl if u ask me
  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »
    Some of your analysis was insightful, but wizards have a lot of variables.

    So, I am going to repeat a point some other people have made:

    Your damage calculations do not cover enough ground. (Also, with the wand you used, your DPS boost from critical hits would roughly cancel the DPS loss from base magical attack. And this should be a hint to you...)

    Personally, I have a higher magic attack than your level 101 test characters, and I am level 62. If I equip a +1 ancient arbor with 2 flawless shards, my magic attack drops to 3394-3852 which is still better than your LightMage (which is ironic since your LightMage has higher base magic defenses than I for arcane defenses where I do not have blue bonuses).

    Since the damage difference between LA and AA damage depends on your magic attack, I think you should consider using some equipment which does "representative damage".

    hehe i got higher pdef with +2eq at lv80 arcane gear wizz with pdef neck and belt than he at lv101 and ofc more mattack/mdef. i dont have ideea what he used but really sucks if i see the screenshots. atm i have really more pdef than his light armor and still i am begning of 9x ...
  • Mumintroll - Heavens Tear
    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,393 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Thanks to OP for trying to do something useful. I wish I had so much time to do these tests by yourself.
    But I still staying pure. But another people can go LA, if they want.b:thanks Anyway GREAT work and thanks for your time.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ihatechavs
    ihatechavs Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Replace the sword with Neon Purgatory with equal refines and it should work.

    Well, I didn't actually use a sword in the comparison, I used a wand. As for Neon Purgatory, that's the weapon I'm testing with right now. I've already gathered data for the weapon without refines, as well as refined to +12. I'm just gathering the necessary damage logs to post into the comparison.
    hehe i got higher pdef with +2eq at lv80 arcane gear wizz with pdef neck and belt than he at lv101 and ofc more mattack/mdef. i dont have ideea what he used but really sucks if i see the screenshots. atm i have really more pdef than his light armor and still i am begning of 9x ...

    I explained exactly what I used, please re-read the equipment section.

    Anyway, to address all of the "my lvXX mage has more pdef than your mages", if you didn't read the reason it is so low, I would suggest checking again to see why. Essentially I was comparing ONLY the armor, not accessories, the reason for this was to show the "rift" between Grade 12 HH99 gold robe and light armor. I could have easily added the same exact accessories to both characters, but that wouldn't have showed a true comparison of the armor itself. I'm already working on adding accessories for another comparison, as well as lower-level NPC junk to show the percentage increase of pdef/mdef/HP bonuses that scale with equipment grades (very important).
    Unfortunately, I don't know any 90+ LA wizards so can't help in choosing proper gear for your test wizard.

    This is exactly why I did a pure armor-only comparison. Most people would have already gone robe armor by the time they reached lv90, so there are really no valid "end-game" type of player comparisons. The problem with this is that most LA users are around the lv6X-8X area and probably just stick with lv6X-7X mold gear, which is not an accurate comparison to a robe mage with full HH90. The inherent armor-class and HP refine bonuses increase a bit more as the armor grade increases. With the preliminary data I've gathered since yesterday, I can say that the rift between robe and LA grows quite a bit at the higher grades (even the guide shows that LA gets 22.2% more HP with the HH99 gold, lower grade stuff does not have this great of a percentage over robes).
    i was lazy to fully read that wall text but i saw the stat image of LA and robe and i gotta say its a complete BS lol the robe wiz at 101 has 6xx deff not buffed. even i at 88 got 1.5k deff not buffed and thats even before having my 90 lunar cape and 90 tt gear with p deff shards atm i use pure hp shards and at 95 with the lunar rings ima have close to 3k deff unbuffed @_@ how the hell a 101 got only 6xx lol if u ask me that ''guide'' is useless

    oh and btw what the hell is that magic dmg? >.> a 101 wiz la or robe should pass 4k magic dmg at that lvl if u ask me

    If you are too lazy to read the guide, please don't provide non-constructive posts. If you bothered to read the last part, you see that I'm asking for suggestions to continue testing.
    All shards should be citrine for LA and arcane between g7 and g11

    Some people argue that robes should still use some pdef shards, so it is somewhat hard to find equipment and refining strategies to suit everyone's "tastes". This is 1 reason why I didn't put shards in the equipment yet cause I'm sure I'll get comments like "that's not how you should shard robes". I will do all HP shards though, since the accessories will help with the pdef.
    i think when u test damage just go ahead and do the same spell 10 times (or whatever) instead of doing a different one... i.e. gush-gush-gush instead of gush-sandstorm-pyro.. this will make it easier to compile and compare results imho.

    I explained why I'm using a variety of skills. If you read that section, you'd find out that if I used Gush for all comparisons, the numbers would weigh heavily in favor of robes. It is important to see skills that use various percentages in damage calculations.

    Thanks to everyone who has provided suggestions.
  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ihatechavs wrote: »
    Well, I didn't actually use a sword in the comparison, I used a wand. As for Neon Purgatory, that's the weapon I'm testing with right now. I've already gathered data for the weapon without refines, as well as refined to +12. I'm just gathering the necessary damage logs to post into the comparison.



    I explained exactly what I used, please re-read the equipment section.

    Anyway, to address all of the "my lvXX mage has more pdef than your mages", if you didn't read the reason it is so low, I would suggest checking again to see why. Essentially I was comparing ONLY the armor, not accessories, the reason for this was to show the "rift" between Grade 12 HH99 gold robe and light armor. I could have easily added the same exact accessories to both characters, but that wouldn't have showed a true comparison of the armor itself. I'm already working on adding accessories for another comparison, as well as lower-level NPC junk to show the percentage increase of pdef/mdef/HP bonuses that scale with equipment grades (very important).



    This is exactly why I did a pure armor-only comparison. Most people would have already gone robe armor by the time they reached lv90, so there are really no valid "end-game" type of player comparisons. The problem with this is that most LA users are around the lv6X-8X area and probably just stick with lv6X-7X mold gear, which is not an accurate comparison to a robe mage with full HH90. The inherent armor-class and HP refine bonuses increase a bit more as the armor grade increases. With the preliminary data I've gathered since yesterday, I can say that the rift between robe and LA grows quite a bit at the higher grades (even the guide shows that LA gets 22.2% more HP with the HH99 gold, lower grade stuff does not have this great of a percentage over robes).



    If you are too lazy to read the guide, please don't provide non-constructive posts. If you bothered to read the last part, you see that I'm asking for suggestions to continue testing.



    Some people argue that robes should still use some pdef shards, so it is somewhat hard to find equipment and refining strategies to suit everyone's "tastes". This is 1 reason why I didn't put shards in the equipment yet cause I'm sure I'll get comments like "that's not how you should shard robes". I will do all HP shards though, since the accessories will help with the pdef.



    I explained why I'm using a variety of skills. If you read that section, you'd find out that if I used Gush for all comparisons, the numbers would weigh heavily in favor of robes. It is important to see skills that use various percentages in damage calculations.

    Thanks to everyone who has provided suggestions.

    lemme ask who the hell use another jewelry than pdef with arcane gear? with light armor maybe use 1mdef neck 1pdef belt but not with arcane and yes my armor gived around 1k+ at 8x because i used +pdef gear :P

    not indifferent u use belt or no because the difference then REALLY reduced between light and arcane later in pdef view with neck and belt.

    600 vs 2,4k or 2,6 vs 4,4 not same.

    about the refine armor, i dont have ideea how many ppl can affoird the bug refineing but i think the most of ppl refine only to +5/6 and i am not sure the difference is huge.


    another thing if u dont use something good weapon and both la/AA build get low dmg then the difference not visible since in really gameing i never met somebody with that lv dmg in 9x lv...

    try do a build how u image ur wizz with la and aa and not only a armor.
    my guild mate got less ~hp but at 91 he already got 10k pdef with full buff with aa and pdef shard(3sock eq,gr8 pdef).

    ok u can compare a mage with hh99 with full hp stone,good robe etc / lawith hp shard/ aa with pdef shard but will FULL equipment will be valid. ok everybody can do difference but everybody can understand better why dont have aa wizz sucks pdef.
  • Kristoph - Lost City
    Kristoph - Lost City Posts: 2,016 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ihatechavs wrote: »
    Simply looking at the HH99 gold gear would show that those 2 pdef ornaments you spoke of would have to make up for at least 1529 pdef (2066 minus 537), which would require quite a bit of refining (about +9 to +11 for each piece of lv90+ jewelry). Please note that 1529 doesn't even account for the added str that the LA user would have, which would add about 200 to that figure.
    You're forgetting the fact that an arcane user would have pdef shards as well... and nobody is going to walk around in full hh99, try picking better examples. HH90 or event gear is generally much more common and obtainable.
    Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.
  • ihatechavs
    ihatechavs Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    All shards should be citrine for LA and arcane between g7 and g11
    You're forgetting the fact that an arcane user would have pdef shards as well
    ok u can compare a mage with hh99 with full hp stone,good robe etc / lawith hp shard/ aa with pdef shard

    As I mentioned in my previous post, everyone has different views about what shards to use. Since there will never be 1 consensus or 1 "right" way to compare them, I will not be testing shards since people would continue to complain about the shards used in the tests. Additionally, I'd then have to spend a lot of time trying to craft equipment that has all equal sockets (there are no socket stones available).

    If you want to do a shard simulation, just pick whatever grade shard you think is "appropriate" and then multiply that by some theoretical number of sockets. For example if you think that a LA user would be using 14 grade 7 HP shards (based on a random estimation of the number of sockets someone might have on his/her gear), then just take the figures from the tests and add 14X40=560HP, it's that simple. You could just as easily say that the person has all 4-socket gear with g12 shards, it doesn't matter, just add whatever figure you want to each character to represent your shard choices.
    I'd say everything between 2-4 sockets..
    All the armor should be refined somewhere between 4 and 7..
    ornaments at least a level above the armor
    cape probably between 6 and 8
    weapon between 6 and 10
    about the refine armor, i dont have ideea how many ppl can affoird the bug refineing but i think the most of ppl refine only to +5/6 and i am not sure the difference is huge.

    As I pointed out in the guide, the refine level of armor doesn't matter very much, since the percentage difference in HP gained in refines is a constant when comparing equipment types of the same grade. I even gave an example in that guide: the percentage of HP difference gained from grade12 robe vs. light +1 (27 vs. 33) is the same as +12 (1012 vs. 1237) so always 22.2%.

    As for the refine level of accessories/ornaments, those can alter the test results, since highly refining pdef equipment can help lower the gap between the 2 armor types. Keep in mind, the light armor user can equip the same exact pdef accessories if he/she so chooses, which will help negate this. While the robe user may benefit a little more from the pdef jewelry, it will never be enough to close the gap entirely, as long as the light armor user can equip the same items. People keep coming up with this idea that either armor user would just be bound to 1 specific type of jewelry, but in reality you can switch types at any time depending on the situation and your play style.

    For example, on my robe mage I also carry some mdef jewelry for cases when I have to tank certain magic bosses, or when I'm grinding versus certain types of monsters. While the mdef jewelry isn't as high-quality as my pdef stuff, it still helps in those situations more than just leaving my pdef stuff equipped.

    Here's another player that does the same thing:
    Actually, I sometimes use arcane jewelry, like when I am tanking magical damage. But this only matters for my pdef when I forget to switch back.

    A light armor user could do the same type of thing but in reverse. The player could use mdef jewelry a bulk of the time, but if he/she is going to be doing PvP, pdef jewelry may actually be of more benefit, since there is a higher chance of fighting a physical attack based character (simply given the number of classes that are physical versus magical, as I outlined in the guide). If the person is going to be fighting a mix of characters, then he/she could use 1 of each type of jewelry, or simply pick whichever pieces the player feels to be more suitable for the situation. The point is, you don't know exactly what type of equipment someone has with them or what they would be wearing at any given time, you can only speculate.

    I finished crafting some jewelry for the test characters and I'll probably just make it all +12, so that the pdef&mdef trends/percentages will be semi-exaggerated, but very clear to see. This way I can also avoid the "but I think +X would be better than +Y" comments for every piece of jewelry. If there is a decent consensus on some other refining level for the jewelry/accessories, then I can redo them. Re-doing the jewelry is very easy, since it wouldn't affect damage (refining rings just adds more mdef, not mag. attack) and I wouldn't have to record/calculate a bunch of damage logs, I'd just have to take a few screenshots.

    Edit: rather than going to +12 as stated above, I will go to +11 simply because I'd be able to reset the refining level back to 0 at any time, instead of having to craft new gear.
    nobody is going to walk around in full hh99, try picking better examples. HH90 or event gear is generally much more common and obtainable

    Comparing the HH90 sets to each other would be similar to comparing the HH99 sets to each other. While the HH99 is less easy to obtain on PWI, the point of the test is to compare armor that is similar in quality and grade, so as long as I'm not comparing HH99 to HH90, then it's an ok test. Additionally, the materials for the HH90 are not readily available where I'm performing the tests, so it would take considerable time to acquire them. Where I'm testing, the event gear you are referring to either does not exist or is completely altered (very buffed up), so unfortunately I cannot use it in comparisons. Also, the characters started at lv100, so I picked something closer to their levels.
    Shards and accessories will greatly diminish any percentage differences.

    As explained above, that all depends on how you allocate shards. If you allocate the same number and same grade HP shards to each character (was suggested to me in an earlier post), then it's null. As mentioned above everyone has their own ideas of how to use shards.

    Accessories can alter the percentages, which is why I'm working on adding those results.
    Ok, but in this kind of comparison, percentage differences mean nothing. The only information of use will be absolute magnitude differences.

    I was simply showing the gap that would have to be closed by using jewelry.
  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Actually, I sometimes use arcane jewelry, like when I am tanking magical damage. But this only matters for my pdef when I forget to switch back.

    i tanked every my elite mob with pdef neck and belt and still i survived with a 10lv lower cleric :)
    what i dont survived i cant survive with mdef neck too because in % have lower diff. when u already got 8k+ mdef and neck belt maybe give 500

    and yes light armor can wear pdef neck and belt but Arcane get more profit for them and why?

    example 5k pdef let say 50% abosrb but 10k pdef max 75-80% so dont raise the % how raising ur pdef.

    u get more pdef but not much the %diff. between 2 pdef value.
    in same time the AA dont get too much profit from mdef since our mdef enough high without any neck so dont cahnge really too much.
  • /Groovy/ - Harshlands
    /Groovy/ - Harshlands Posts: 688 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ihatechavs wrote: »
    Well, I didn't actually use a sword in the comparison, I used a wand.
    O rly? I was referring to the build I suggested in the link, not your test gear b:surrender
    Packs World International
  • Lee_Hyorii - Raging Tide
    Lee_Hyorii - Raging Tide Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    SurferGirl - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    i was lazy to fully read that wall text but i saw the stat image of LA and robe and i gotta say its a complete BS lol the robe wiz at 101 has 6xx deff not buffed. even i at 88 got 1.5k deff not buffed and thats even before having my 90 lunar cape and 90 tt gear with p deff shards atm i use pure hp shards and at 95 with the lunar rings ima have close to 3k deff unbuffed @_@ how the hell a 101 got only 6xx lol if u ask me that ''guide'' is useless

    oh and btw what the hell is that magic dmg? >.> a 101 wiz la or robe should pass 4k magic dmg at that lvl if u ask me

    = garbage

    10 chars
  • Haiz - Lost City
    Haiz - Lost City Posts: 646 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Its really funny your beginning, where you make Pandora sound like he was great and knew what he was talking about.

    I skimmed over most of it, and one thing I read that always makes me laugh is how people argue. "Oh as light armor you can wear robes anytime you want!" Seriously, who the hell carries robes on them and then will actually think of switching to them in the middle of a fight? Get serious. Then that will only cost you an extreme amount of extra money to make those robes decent while you can just make your light armor better.

    The actual % differences in pdef/mdef are quite minimal as well once you add in ornaments. The higher you go the less difference there is so if you really wanted to take an example of +12 gear, get some +12 pdef ornaments and see how much of a difference there isn't. Of course there's a drastic difference when you compare 600 to 2400, if you compare 6000 to 9000 the gap is a lot smaller in reduction % but the actual gap in pdef has increased.
  • ZhenMuch - Lost City
    ZhenMuch - Lost City Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    it was a helpful guide to me

    ive been thinking about LA vs AA for a long long long time and after reading that i jus decided to LA through my low levels then restat :)
  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Haiz - Lost City wrote: »
    Its really funny your beginning, where you make Pandora sound like he was great and knew what he was talking about.

    I skimmed over most of it, and one thing I read that always makes me laugh is how people argue. "Oh as light armor you can wear robes anytime you want!" Seriously, who the hell carries robes on them and then will actually think of switching to them in the middle of a fight? Get serious. Then that will only cost you an extreme amount of extra money to make those robes decent while you can just make your light armor better.

    The actual % differences in pdef/mdef are quite minimal as well once you add in ornaments. The higher you go the less difference there is so if you really wanted to take an example of +12 gear, get some +12 pdef ornaments and see how much of a difference there isn't. Of course there's a drastic difference when you compare 600 to 2400, if you compare 6000 to 9000 the gap is a lot smaller in reduction % but the actual gap in pdef has increased.

    i wantedsay this, becuase Haiz have totally right, let say between 600-2400 have 30% absorb phisical dmg difference but between 6000 vs 9000 have far less difference, and with cleric pdef/bm pdef buff step by step less p.harm ddifference.
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    bla blah...next post
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ihatechavs wrote: »

    I put a long **** post here and it disappeared.

    anyway, back to square one:

    my current arcane build:
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=173f80c6e00189f9
    this is a pic from a week ago, I gave up some pdef for a little HP gain, I'll get back the pdef soon:
    http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7975/stats2a.jpg

    hybrid build:
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=2a89ee613b19adb3

    LA build:
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=0a9f8703993a843e

    looking at those builds and comparing them I can only see a 33 %increase in crit rate for hybrid and LA and a 500 increase in HP for pure LA (mostly cause of the helmet).

    Now, I don't understand how someone in their right mind will walk around with under 7k magic dmg and 5.5k mag def at lvl 97. Yes, you can always ask for a buff, so do I.
    LA can be a cheap way to get to 90, let's say 95. NOTHING ELSE. After 95 every full geared LA wizard should be smacked.
    Hybrid is a choice if u stack crit, as it gives basically a 33% increase in crit rate (from 12 to 16 and around 100 can get to 20%, but the Pure can go to about 15-16% too) with the cost of 2000 raw magic dmg. Most of the time though, you need to do some kind of damage...so, pray for crits while spamming gush/pyro.
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Mumintroll - Heavens Tear
    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,393 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Lot of people doesn't realize, that curve of damage reduction isn't linear. Even calculated reduction is not as should be. Higher levels has much better survivability with the same p.def(in numbers), than lower levels. There is something hidden in program formula. This is the factor, why robe mages 95+ have much more survivability, than LA mages. Almost regardless on armor. And lv. 100+ robe mage is almost unbeatable. And LA always loose with high level pure mage. Also high level pure mage is in fight with another classes much better with much higher probability to survive as LA mage. I saw lot of different videos, where high LA fighting and high pure fighting with another classes. And result is pure mage is much more expensive, but ind the end is much better. But if somebody want to be LA at high level go for it. It your decision.b:thanks
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Kristoph - Lost City
    Kristoph - Lost City Posts: 2,016 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Some people don't seem to realize how big the difference is between ~58% mdef reduction and ~68% mdef reduction. Even when you get buffed there's quite a difference. Taking 42% damage from magic attacks instead of 32% is a lot if you consider how hard magic hits endgame.
    Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.
  • Jhestyr - Harshlands
    Jhestyr - Harshlands Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Quote:
    i think when u test damage just go ahead and do the same spell 10 times (or whatever) instead of doing a different one... i.e. gush-gush-gush instead of gush-sandstorm-pyro.. this will make it easier to compile and compare results imho.
    I explained why I'm using a variety of skills. If you read that section, you'd find out that if I used Gush for all comparisons, the numbers would weigh heavily in favor of robes. It is important to see skills that use various percentages in damage calculations.

    Thanks to everyone who has provided suggestions.

    Sorry i didnt explain myself well. I was only suggesting that each monster only receive 1 of the spells for each test....

    so for example in your tests you were doing:

    Monster 1
    Glacial Snare=7982
    Divine Pyrogram=6603
    Sandstorm=7591
    Stone Rain=5470
    Gush=4392
    Pyrogram=n/a

    I was recommending that monster 1 you do all Gush, monster 2 all pyrogram, monster 3 all stone rain, and so on and so forth... i just thought it might help eliminate the N/A's and be easier to compile the results for your averages.
  • ihatechavs
    ihatechavs Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    It took a lot longer than I thought it would, but the comparison has been updated to include some of the ideas from this thread. Please let me know if you have more suggestions.
    Haiz wrote:
    Its really funny your beginning, where you make Pandora sound like he was great and knew what he was talking about.

    Was that the part where I said he did "reasonably well with his build" or the part when I said he didn't include enough facts?

    I'm sorry if you get all worked up when you see his name, but there's no need to make things up.
    /Groovy/ wrote:
    O rly? I was referring to the build I suggested in the link, not your test gear

    Sorry about that, I thought that maybe you were talking about the rank8 sword.
    Jhestyr - Harshlands wrote: »
    Sorry i didnt explain myself well. I was only suggesting that each monster only receive 1 of the spells for each test....

    so for example in your tests you were doing:

    Monster 1
    Glacial Snare=7982
    Divine Pyrogram=6603
    Sandstorm=7591
    Stone Rain=5470
    Gush=4392
    Pyrogram=n/a

    I was recommending that monster 1 you do all Gush, monster 2 all pyrogram, monster 3 all stone rain, and so on and so forth... i just thought it might help eliminate the N/A's and be easier to compile the results for your averages.

    A good suggestion, sorry I didn't get your explanation before. I've already finished the next batch of tests though. The reason I did it with each skill in order, is so that I could cut the damage logs more easily. I slightly altered the way I did the attacks for the last batch of logs, since the monsters were getting killed so easily with a +12 CV wand.
  • shiilune
    shiilune Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Thank you for the indepth analysis. I am looking forward to your next, updated tests.

    I think alot of people should be happy when you add all the trinkets. Though some would still be immature and try and prove your foundings wrong. Nevermind them, at least YOU gave your time to show the rest of us what we get with both builds. Just know that you are doing the community a very big favour with doing these tests. Do not let any one get you down while you do these tests as this is your chance to clear up alot of pre-meditated biased opinions and misconceptions.

    One other thing you can also do is take away the all the like and dislikes in the guide. In other words make this guide punctual and FACTual. Do not sway it with your opinions or beliefs... eg: LA gives more HP than Robe. We know its true but by simply showing the numbers the reader will see the differences. Do not talk about it, dont add what you think of it, just compare it side by side using a table. If you want these foundings to be stickied you will also have to take out the top part explaining about Pandora etc etc.

    All in all this is a very good guide/test (almost), and I applaud you for it. I think when it is finished they should sticky this. This clears alot of future posts, quarrels and confused minds about both builds and that is what the wizzard forum needs.
  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ihatechavs
    me has a sort of request-question thingy
    could you mayhaps make the "ideal" robe wizard and "ideal" Light armor wizard mayhaps?
    and run some damage tests? (both the damage dealt and damage received?)
    b:puzzled
    darthpanda16: Firefox crashed on me. Aryannamage: I don't think I am a GM that would be new.
    Hawk:Do this. closing thread
    frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows.//Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
    Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
    Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
    LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope..
    Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
    Waiting for...Hamster Packs!
    58% chance to get tokens
    41% chance to get an all class pet hamster....but they has already been freed by the magic hamster.
    1% chance to get ban hamstered with the message "Hamsters United!"
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ihatechavs
    ihatechavs Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Thank you for the indepth analysis. I am looking forward to your next, updated tests.

    Well, the guide was just updated about an hour ago, but I guess you are referring to updates after this most recent 1.
    One other thing you can also do is take away the all the like and dislikes in the guide. In other words make this guide punctual and FACTual. Do not sway it with your opinions or beliefs... eg: LA gives more HP than Robe. We know its true but by simply showing the numbers the reader will see the differences. Do not talk about it, dont add what you think of it, just compare it side by side using a table. If you want these foundings to be stickied you will also have to take out the top part explaining about Pandora etc etc.

    I don't remember saying whether I liked or disliked anything, I tried leaving out my opinion, except in the side-notes which I explicitly labeled (I could move then into an entirely different section/area though). As for the explanations of the numbers, I figured those would be essential, since not everyone will interpret them properly and many just skim over them (as proven by some of the comments in this thread). As for the bit about Pandora, I was simply giving my impression after reading that guide and the 77 pages of headache-causing non-sense that ensued afterward (yes, I read all of it). I also noted in that particular section of the article that it was part of my reason for writing this, since his guide left a bit to be desired in the build comparison area. I could re-arrange it or move it to another post if you think it detracts from the content, but as for a sticky, I don't care either way.

    I guess it's up to the users if they think it's worth keeping around. If the comparison is not helpful, then I can simply remove the link. It appears that most of the people who have posted so far seem to think I'm "working an angle" or something, since I've received more negative comments about LA builds than suggestions for tests. I've stated several times already that I am not trying to convince anyone that 1 build is better than the other, I was simply interested in doing a comparison and I figured that I'd share the results as I got them.
    me has a sort of request-question thingy
    could you mayhaps make the "ideal" robe wizard and "ideal" Light armor wizard mayhaps?
    and run some damage tests? (both the damage dealt and damage received?)

    Please define "ideal" and I'll try to get as close as possible. As for the damage tests, what sort of targets should they attack? Perhaps you mean attack each other? Let me know what you'd like to see.
  • shiilune
    shiilune Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ihatechavs wrote: »
    I don't remember saying whether I liked or disliked anything, I tried leaving out my opinion, except in the side-notes which I explicitly labeled (I could move then into an entirely different section/area though). As for the explanations of the numbers, I figured those would be essential, since not everyone will interpret them properly and many just skim over them (as proven by some of the comments in this thread). As for the bit about Pandora, I was simply giving my impression after reading that guide and the 77 pages of headache-causing non-sense that ensued afterward (yes, I read all of it). I also noted in that particular section of the article that it was part of my reason for writing this, since his guide left a bit to be desired in the build comparison area. I could re-arrange it or move it to another post if you think it detracts from the content, but as for a sticky, I don't care either way.

    I guess it's up to the users if they think it's worth keeping around. If the comparison is not helpful, then I can simply remove the link. It appears that most of the people who have posted so far seem to think I'm "working an angle" or something, since I've received more negative comments about LA builds than suggestions for tests. I've stated several times already that I am not trying to convince anyone that 1 build is better than the other, I was simply interested in doing a comparison and I figured that I'd share the results as I got them.

    Yes the next part of the guide with all the trinkets and gadgets in.

    As I have said your guide for me was very very usefull and I surely know that the more grown up people will benefit from it. Keep on doing the good work. U will get rewarded.

    Just like you, I also read thru all the pages of Pandora's guide and to be honest they should have Locked the topic, because just like u said, people just scan the guide and then click the reply button and says something silly without any proof. I can see quite a few people already doing that here. Nevertheless keep writing and performing factual tests. There is a saying: You can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make it drink. Same here. Once someone has started to believe their build is best they will not change. (99% of the time)

    Lets see how the whole guide is going before you move your personal comments out of the guide. As for the Pandora part at the top of the guide, put that at the bottom as a addendum for anyone who would want to know why you wrote the guide.

    All else, keep up the good work.b:thanks
  • Prowler - Heavens Tear
    Prowler - Heavens Tear Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    +12 to OP, your analysis certainly deserves to be stickied!

    To the OP: You have the patience of the Buddha, going by the very mature responses you have been giving to some very opinionated / provocative posts in this thread. This is such a rarity on forums!

    To those geniuses who panned the analysis without reading through or understanding it, or who simply responded negatively to a build other than their preferred one: There are some sociopolitical systems that discourage even studying of subjects not approved by the government. The internet isn't like that, mostly.


    I see the numbers, I draw my conclusions, and I feel vindicated in my stance that there is no such thing as only one "correct" build, except in the thinking processes of the feeble-minded.

    Warm Regards
    --
    Prowler (Venomancer) on Heaven's Tear

    Former Leader of QuestSeek: International level 3 faction.
  • shiilune
    shiilune Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Prowler - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    +12 to OP, your analysis certainly deserves to be stickied!

    To the OP: You have the patience of the Buddha, going by the very mature responses you have been giving to some very opinionated / provocative posts in this thread. This is such a rarity on forums!

    To those geniuses who panned the analysis without reading through or understanding it, or who simply responded negatively to a build other than their preferred one: There are some sociopolitical systems that discourage even studying of subjects not approved by the government. The internet isn't like that, mostly.


    I see the numbers, I draw my conclusions, and I feel vindicated in my stance that there is no such thing as only one "correct" build, except in the thinking processes of the feeble-minded.

    Warm Regards
    I lol'ed at your analogy and comparison of subjects with this guide. I wholeheartedly agree with you as well.
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ihatechavs wrote: »
    Well, the guide was just updated about an hour ago, but I guess you are referring to updates after this most recent 1.

    grats and TY for the work you put in there.
    would you be able to redo a part of the tests with a hybrid build?
    one of my posts earlier has something like that. I dunno how easy/hard it is for you to make/transfer part of the gear from Robe to LA, but it might worth a try.
    What I'm expecting to see is a better defense overall with a smaller decrease in dmg.
    ____________
    I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    George Carlin

    ~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Magicsaber - Dreamweaver
    Magicsaber - Dreamweaver Posts: 727 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Robe Build Pros:
    -Very high damage output per spell
    -Extremely high magical defense (especially with barriers), useful for tanking magic bosses
    -Very high maximum MP
    -High MP regeneration rate

    Extremely useful at PVE servers.
    One last thing that people need to be very aware of, is the type of gameplay light armor mages are built for. The light armor build is definitely geared more toward PvP, since most mages will rarely ever get hit by physical melee monsters, therefore hardly benefiting from the additional physical defense.

    I will stay as pure Wizard.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Dvalinn - Lost City
    Dvalinn - Lost City Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Could you put less of an emphasis on percentage differences between damage, and more on the raw damage differences? From the first batch of tests, BIDS did 6.1% less damage in PvP. With better weapons, it was a 9.5% difference. In PvE, Gush went from 18.2% less to 20.2% less. This does not seem like a large difference, and makes it seem like a better weapon doesn't make much of a difference. Looking at raw damage gives another story. The weak weapon difference for Gush was 18.2%, and 202 raw damage. The strong weapon had a 20.2% difference, but 2555 difference in raw damage. BIDS goes from about 200 to 600 PvP damage.

    Saying things like "...the percentage differences have increased by about 1-4% compared to the original numbers using an NPC wand..." and "skills that have a larger weapon percentage modifier (like Sandstorm or BIDS) show a smaller damage loss for the light mage" doesn't obviously show or change the fact that light armor mages still hit 2.5k less per hit, for any spell.
  • ihatechavs
    ihatechavs Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »
    I would like to offer one other criticism: percentage differences in physical defense do not really matter. Instead, you should be comparing survivability.

    Survivability winds up being: health * (1 + pdef / (level * 40)) where level is your opponent's level.

    This comes from using algebra on the damage reduction formula (pdef / (pdef + level * 40)) and finding out how much damage a person can soak up.

    If you compare percentage differences in physical defense you get a warped perspective on survivability because you do not have zero survivability when you have zero physical defense.

    I agree completely, but I was just including the percentages since most people would want to see them. As it stands now, many people just drop a bunch of random pdef, HP, and mag. attack ratings all over the forums as some sort of indicator of "survivability", so I was trying to provide the equivalent numbers for comparison reasons.

    If you would like, I could add your formula to the comparison (with credit of course) and plug in the numbers for each character. If the equation is listed, users could figure out their own scenarios as well, by plugging in any numbers that they want. Let me know what you think I should do.
    Saying things like "...the percentage differences have increased by about 1-4% compared to the original numbers using an NPC wand..." and "skills that have a larger weapon percentage modifier (like Sandstorm or BIDS) show a smaller damage loss for the light mage" doesn't obviously show or change the fact that light armor mages still hit 2.5k less per hit, for any spell.

    Well, immediately after listing the percentage differences I said "but the actual damage has increased by a factor of about 2.25-2.75 overall" to emphasize that the damage is on average 2.5 times what it was in the first test. If you want, I could give a small comparison immediately following that sentence, or inside parentheses (such as saying "for example 2500 damage instead of 800"). Alternatively, I could just drop the whole line altogether. Regardless, the numbers speak for themselves and it's easy to see how the damage scales.

    As for the quote about the skills, I was simply referencing the percentages built into the skills, not the damage percentage differences in any of the tests. I immediately followed that comment by saying that the light mage is weaker overall. If you'd like, I can elaborate more on that line, or simply drop it as well.
    would you be able to redo a part of the tests with a hybrid build?
    one of my posts earlier has something like that. I dunno how easy/hard it is for you to make/transfer part of the gear from Robe to LA, but it might worth a try.
    What I'm expecting to see is a better defense overall with a smaller decrease in dmg.

    I saw your comment about your original post getting cut-off by the forums, so other than a link to some equipment in your next post, I didn't see any other data. If you simply meant to try using 1 pdef and mdef accessory each and using 2 pieces of robes, I can do that. If that's not what you meant, please define what type of "hybrid" you want to see and I'll try to perform a comparison. I doubt swapping 1 accessory and a couple pieces of armor would change the damage much, but it would affect the defense quite a bit.

    As for transferring gear, it is hard for the HH99 gold stuff since it is bound upon equipping, but I can craft some new gear. I suppose I should have just started off with some CV gear for the initial tests, but o well, it's too late now.
    To the OP: You have the patience of the Buddha, going by the very mature responses you have been giving to some very opinionated / provocative posts in this thread. This is such a rarity on forums!

    To those geniuses who panned the analysis without reading through or understanding it, or who simply responded negatively to a build other than their preferred one: There are some sociopolitical systems that discourage even studying of subjects not approved by the government. The internet isn't like that, mostly.

    Thanks, I just eat chocolate to keep me calm (not entirely true, but chocolate is always worth mentioning, since it's amazing).

    What's funny is that some of the people didn't actually read any of the comparison before posting a response. I know this because there were negative comments up before I had even posted a link to the comparison. I guess the title of the thread is enough to cause people to spew garbage as quickly as they can type it. Great analogy by the way.
    As for the Pandora part at the top of the guide, put that at the bottom as a addendum for anyone who would want to know why you wrote the guide.

    Will do.
    keep up the good work

    I'll try, but this is taking considerably more time than I had anticipated. The updates may take slightly longer than usual cause I have a lot of other things to catch up on, but I'll try not to let this fall to the wayside.
  • shiilune
    shiilune Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Excellent. New updates.

    These foundings of yours confirm with mine fron Ecatomb and PWI calc. I thought they were somewhat wrong but now with actual test data they are right.

    Please do tell, what 89 paths did you use for the wizards? If you can... I would like to see what type of damage gain there is when activating Wellspring Quaff for a Sage Wizard vs. Non-Sage. It doesn't matter which build, its just that "100% bonus to magic attack" is very vague indeed.

    The small comparison I did was when a LA mage would WQ then she would momentarily gain more damage that a pure (alot more). That being said, its even worse the other way round. If a pure wiz WQ's, then she would blow LA out of the water.

    Your completing the guide at a much faster pace I would think so kudo's for you. Great job with the whole guide and the moving of your opinions.

    I approve of a sticky now.b:pleased

    Once again, Excellent work!
This discussion has been closed.

Categories