In-depth Robe vs. Light armor analysis

ihatechavs

First off, I'm not directly supporting 1 build over the other. I started this thread simply to give people information to work with when they are trying to decide what build to use. I will provide a list of advantages and disadvantages for each build, followed by some real test data. This way people can make informed decisions, instead of hearing the same, old “suggestions” (term is used very loosely) that are repeated all over these forums without any real data.

The data will evolve over time, as suggestions for tests are made in this thread.

Due to the character limitations on this forum, I have posted the complete guide here.

Also, according to GM eatwithspoons: "As long as it is in the screenshots, General, or Fanatics section, your picture will show as a picture and not a link", so the pictures don't even show up here.

Please post comments in this forum though, so other users can respond more easily.

ihatechavs

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ihatechavs

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MagicHamsta - Lost City

where be LA damage logs?
o.O
ah there we go.
(^.^)'

ihatechavs

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ihatechavs

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Konariraiden - Heavens Tear

TL;DR -- LA until 89, AA at 90.

Anything else is wrong.

ihatechavs

Deleted, refer to post #1

ihatechavs

The forum keeps shortening my character limit, I guess to prevent spam. Perhaps I should post the entire guide on some other site, then link to it.

MagicHamsta - Lost City

well what about defensive status of teh LA vs Robes?
b:puzzled

Konariraiden - Heavens Tear

ihatechavs wrote: »

The forum keeps shortening my character limit, I guess to prevent spam. Perhaps I should post the entire guide on some other site, then link to it.

No, that's me using Force of Will on you to keep you from posting more TL;DR posts.

b:chuckle

...but if I have to stay on-topic, I have to give you much kudos in doing all of this research yourself. Really well thought out and done. Especially using the wand to stick to a good, consistent base damage.

b:victory

And yeah, I think a link would be better.

ihatechavs

Do you have any suggestions on forums to use to post a long guide? I suppose most have some sort of character limit or spam guard.

Konariraiden - Heavens Tear

ihatechavs wrote: »

Do you have any suggestions on forums to use to post a long guide? I suppose most have some sort of character limit or spam guard.

Well, I wouldn't say they'd have a "spam guard" here...as I remember aiding in the fight against one "particular" spammer that was flooding the forums with...well, Super-Spam. The length of his final post was so long that it took a good long while to load the whole page... *ahem* ...but I digress.

If anything, I'd maybe get a free website or something...maybe a blog you can put it onto, and link from there.

ihatechavs

Konariraiden - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well, I wouldn't say they'd have a "spam guard" here...as I remember aiding in the fight against one "particular" spammer that was flooding the forums with...well, Super-Spam. The length of his final post was so long that it took a good long while to load the whole page... *ahem* ...but I digress.

If anything, I'd maybe get a free website or something...maybe a blog you can put it onto, and link from there.

Well, it completely cut off my initial post, and each subsequent post gets shorter and shorter, so perhaps they recently implemented it?

In any case, I suppose I'll look into the options you suggested, cause about half of the information is missing right now.

Konariraiden - Heavens Tear

ihatechavs wrote: »

Well, it completely cut off my initial post, and each subsequent post gets shorter and shorter, so perhaps they recently implemented it?

In any case, I suppose I'll look into the options you suggested, cause about half of the information is missing right now.

Heh, lookin' forward to actually reading it.

In my opinion, I found having Light Armor up until 90 was fairly good, and then switching to Arcane at 90 was even better.

ihatechavs

Konariraiden - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Heh, lookin' forward to actually reading it.

In my opinion, I found having Light Armor up until 90 was fairly good, and then switching to Arcane at 90 was even better.

Thanks, I hope you find some useful information. I've posted the guide on another site, so at least it won't be split up and missing pictures.

Kristoph - Lost City

Light Armor = you do less damage and you take more physical AND magical damage. Only reason why LA even works a little bit is because you can use channeling ornaments along with having a decent critrate to make up for your horrible damage in pvp. But either your mdef is HORRIBLY low or you can make up for mdef by using mdef ornaments... causing your pdef to fall below that of an arcane user with 2 pdef ornaments.


There's some LA mage on my server that does less to me with +10 weapon and demon divine pyrogram than I do to him with +8 weapon and sage pyrogram. It's pretty... awful.

Adroit - Lost City

Well I like the research.. but when you look at full gear, arcane ends up have more survivability. Arcane robes by already have great mdef and bad pdef. LA has low pdef and low mdef. Adding in ornaments will mean for robes that you have good pdef (especially with stone barrier) and good mdef... LA on the other hand needs to choose how they do their ornaments.

With two mdef ornaments, they will have significantly less pdef, and unless they are refined like crazy, still less mdef than arcane.

If they choose one pdef and one mdef, they end up having less pdef and less mdef.

And both pdef and they will have slightly higher pdef and way less mdef. There really isn't a win for LA.

It just doesn't make sense to go LA when you start investing in gear because you do more damage as arcane, and have more survivability. The only reason you would go LA would be because..
1) You want to be able to use -channeling ornaments with at least some pdef
2) The extra 4-5% crit
3) You are misinformed.. or in some people's case, just stupid.

ihatechavs

Damn, people sure do go on the offensive quickly.

You don't need to "convince" me of what build to use, I've already explicitly stated that I'm a robe build mage and I'm not going to restat or purchase all new gear at my level, it's a bit too late in the game for me to do that without becoming a cash shop ***** (damn those anniversary packs).

The point of this thread is to give something to all of the users who keep asking for information about the builds, but receive ambiguous statements like:

There's some LA mage on my server that does less to me with +10 weapon and demon divine pyrogram than I do to him with +8 weapon and sage pyrogram. It's pretty... awful.

I mean, come on, is that really informative at all? No damage or equipment specifics are even listed, let alone buffs, level of other mage, etc.

People shouldn't be basing their builds on those types of comments, which are very prevalent on these forums.

you can make up for mdef by using mdef ornaments... causing your pdef to fall below that of an arcane user with 2 pdef ornaments

Simply looking at the HH99 gold gear would show that those 2 pdef ornaments you spoke of would have to make up for at least 1529 pdef (2066 minus 537), which would require quite a bit of refining (about +9 to +11 for each piece of lv90+ jewelry). Please note that 1529 doesn't even account for the added str that the LA user would have, which would add about 200 to that figure.

Look, I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything. I'm simply providing some basic information with which people can make their own decisions. If you feel the information needs to be added to, please make a suggestion. I can perform a variety of tests with a large assortment of high level gear.

Adroit - Lost City

The information you give in there is not accurate. You are basing your decisions off of bad and imcomplete gear. You need to compare builds with realistic gear. Your guide shows LA to have so much more survivability, but that is not the case if geared properly. The damage tests were probably accurate, but the comparing hp/defense etc was useless.

Oneshotu - Lost City

LA sucks for mage and AA is the **** best. Stop these la vs AA post on mage forums. it gets old xD

Magikrap - Lost City

Oneshotu - Lost City wrote: »

LA sucks for mage and AA is the **** best. Stop these la vs AA post on mage forums. it gets old xD

obvious troll is obvious b:victory

Magikrap - Lost City

good work here ihatechavs
+1

i think this is great cos it is factual and not at all biased

not just bs "la sucks oejkpwqeirpiqowe"

or

"aa sucks noobnwooeoweiuoiweoiwe"

i think stikcy is need

MagicHamsta - Lost City

ya me agree it be nice to see someone attempting to get real numbers to elp others decide.
d(^.^)

Dvalinn - Lost City

You did the damage calculations "wrong." You have the idea right, but the execution is incorrect if the Mages COULD be using Rank 8.


According to here, "Base Magic Damage" refers to the number on the character sheet, and is calculated by (1+(MAG/100))*(LVL + EQUIPMENT DAMAGE). Equipment damage takes into account the weapon damage, any +magic attack on the weapon, sapphire shards on the weapon, +magic attack from rings, and any +magic attack from any other equipment. All of this is then MULTIPLIED by 1+(Magic/100). RobeMage had 460 Magic, so the weapon damage would be multiplied by 5.60. LightMage had 306 Magic, so 4.06 is the multiplier.

You used a Spirit Driver Wand, with a damage range of of 586-597, and just that. This gives RobeMage a maximum damage of 3847.2-3908.8, and LightMage a maximum of 2789.22-2833.88. (I must have missed something, or some formulas/data/whatever is wrong, giving the minor extra damage.) This is about a 1k difference in damage, before any reductions.

What these characters COULD be using, is a +12 Nature Talker (the Rank 8 sword, Magic Attack 2187-2456, +130 Max Magic Attack, +15 Magic) with 2 Icebourne Stone (Grade 12 Sapphires, +100 Magic Attack), and 2 rings (let's say 2 Sign of Frost: Chaos rings, +97 Magic Attack each).

The Mages' equipment damage is NOW 2581-2980. RobeMage's base magic damage with this equipment is 15421.5-17715.75, and LightMage's is 11237.58-12909.39. The 1k damage difference is now a 4-4.5k difference. Remember, this is per hit.

This is why Light Armor works fine at lower levels, in terms of attack. Lower levels have a lower difference in Magic, and weapons that do less damage. They have less to multiply, and it gets multiplied by less. As level increases and equipment gets better, Light Armor damage starts to fall behind. It's also why the Light Armor Mage Kristoph was talking about did less damage with a stronger spell and better weapon.

NOTE: I know some of my numbers might be off. b:surrender

Edit: Slight number error.

Jhestyr - Harshlands

this is very nicely done. i agree theres more to consider but i think u got the basics down.

i have some thoughts and forgive the typing im doing this from my phone...

i think when u test damage just go ahead and do the same spell 10 times (or whatever) instead of doing a different one... i.e. gush-gush-gush instead of gush-sandstorm-pyro.. this will make it easier to compile and compare results imho.

i like how your initial tests show a very direct comparison with only the essential eq needed. so perhaps the next step is to show the comparison with the optional equipment. a AA build that uses all pdef ornaments and one that uses mdeff eq.. prolly both matk+ rings. same thing with la build one with pdef ornaments one with mdef.. not sure about shards yet id leave those out for now as a third potential set of tests (optional optional gear enhacements if u will)

im sure plenty of ppl here can recommend the "best" type of gear for the respective sub-builds

anyway i really enjoyed the op and would like to see more.

ihatechavs

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

The information you give in there is not accurate. You are basing your decisions off of bad and imcomplete gear. You need to compare builds with realistic gear. Your guide shows LA to have so much more survivability, but that is not the case if geared properly. The damage tests were probably accurate, but the comparing hp/defense etc was useless.

I am now performing a comparison using all NPC armor and including belts/necklaces (to rule out the extra stat and set bonuses). I can also add to the previous HH99 gold comparison by using the HH99 gold jewelry.

You said to use "realistic gear", but that's a very subjective term. Additionally, the anniversary packs have heavily distorted what is considered to be "realistic". Please let me know what items you'd like me to compare, I can craft almost anything.

You did the damage calculations "wrong." You have the idea right, but the execution is incorrect if the Mages COULD be using Rank 8.

I was considering using rank8 to start with, but it was hard to track the damage dealt on a sword, due to the min/max variation. I guess I'll craft some higher level wands and perform more tests. I know that int works as a multiplier, but I used that equation with some lower-level basic weapons and the numbers did not come out as expected.

I look forward to seeing the outcome of the new tests, I'll let you know when I've updated the page.

Adroit - Lost City

ihatechavs wrote: »

I am now performing a comparison using all NPC armor and including belts/necklaces (to rule out the extra stat and set bonuses). I can also add to the previous HH99 gold comparison by using the HH99 gold jewelry.

You said to use "realistic gear", but that's a very subjective term. Additionally, the anniversary packs have heavily distorted what is considered to be "realistic". Please let me know what items you'd like me to compare, I can craft almost anything.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=fcdf1076dabc61e3
This is a basic idea of what I'll be shooting for down the road. To compare.. I'd say..

Helm - Event helm or arcane should have 3*/OHT with pdef and hp mods and LA should have the highest grade helmet (not arcane headgear) they can wear
Chest - HH 90/99 chest or 3*/OHT chest with hp/pdef mods
Legs - HH 90 pants
Boots - Event or OHT with hp/pdef mods
Gloves - HH 90/99 gold sleeves, or OHT with hp/pdef mods
Robe - 96 mold, cloudcharger, or the event with the 2pdef mods or the -chan
Ornaments - (arcane should have both pdef... LA should have probably one of each type... the elemental should have -channeling)
rings - either lunar, or OHT with hp/crit/channeling/matk mods
tome - xmas or one with hp/mag/crit on it

Weapon.. lunar wep, HH 99 gold crit sword... meh doesn't rly matter as long as its a decent weapon.

All shards should be citrine for LA and arcane between g7 and g11
I'd say everything between 2-4 sockets..

All the armor should be refined somewhere between 4 and 7..
ornaments at least a level above the armor
cape probably between 6 and 8
weapon between 6 and 10




I would say this would be a somewhat reasonable/decent build for both arcane and LA. Make sure the arcane build has at least 5k pdef self buffed and the rest of the extra stats should be put into extra hp. Using full gear should show the difference in survivability a little better. Remember when you are giving the % reduction for pdef/mdef, it is relative (1% change in reduction from 98% to 99% would mean you'd take 50% less damage.. where as 50% to 51% means you are taking 2% less damage) so you may want to keep that in mind.

I'm not asking you to do this for me, I've done my research and made my decision already. But if you are really looking for some good data for arcane and LA, you need to show it with full gear. The damage tests you used are fine, I'd just suggest you try with gear somewhat similar to the above.

Magikrap - Lost City

if you really want to make this analysis awesome

i suggest you do full equips
and take buffs into account as well
cleric buffs make low phys/mag def better and if you already have good phys/ mag/ def the cleric buffs wont do as much for you because of diminishing return on phys/mag def

/Groovy/ - Harshlands

Kudos for all the hard work b:thanks


I think you could improve your test a bit though by making gears used in the test more realistic.

Example:
Your robe wizard has 617 pdef unbuffed at lvl 100.
My robe wizard has around 1,6k pdef unbuffed at lvl 82.


Here is the link to the build of one of Lost City wizards:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=1917be280fbb6931

Replace the sword with Neon Purgatory with equal refines and it should work.


Unfortunately, I don't know any 90+ LA wizards so can't help in choosing proper gear for your test wizard.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

/Groovy/ - Harshlands wrote: »

Kudos for all the hard work b:thanks


I think you could improve your test a bit though by making gears used in the test more realistic.

Example:
Your robe wizard has 617 pdef unbuffed at lvl 100.
My robe wizard has around 1,6k pdef unbuffed at lvl 82.


Here is the link to the build of one of Lost City wizards:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=1917be280fbb6931

Replace the sword with Neon Purgatory with equal refines and it should work.


Unfortunately, I don't know any 90+ LA wizards so can't help in choosing proper gear for your test wizard.

i got 2.2-2.3k with pure mag and hp shards at 8x . 617pdef is really funny XD i think i got that at 5x