In-depth Robe vs. Light armor analysis

Lyzzern - Lost City

Your... "Guide" misses a lot of stuff and has some failed stats. First of all: The damage:
The weapon and rings used, should be as high and refined as possible, but real, so that the M. Atk is real (Your M. Atk in PWCalc isn't real, as I'm lv. 80 pure Wizard and have 6k M. Atk). Also, the more Mag you have, the more your damage is multiplied when you equip a +M. Atk gear. (Mine multiplies 4, idk), so that means the damage difference is way bigger than you show.
The Defense:
Where are the ornaments? Where can we see the equipment? Shards? You should provide us with much more info than what you did, if you wanna do something "In-Depth" kthxbye.

shiilune

Lyzzern - Lost City wrote: »

Your... "Guide" misses a lot of stuff and has some failed stats. First of all: The damage:
The weapon and rings used, should be as high and refined as possible, but real, so that the M. Atk is real (Your M. Atk in PWCalc isn't real, as I'm lv. 80 pure Wizard and have 6k M. Atk). Also, the more Mag you have, the more your damage is multiplied when you equip a +M. Atk gear. (Mine multiplies 4, idk), so that means the damage difference is way bigger than you show.
The Defense:
Where are the ornaments? Where can we see the equipment? Shards? You should provide us with much more info than what you did, if you wanna do something "In-Depth" kthxbye.

You have absolutely NOT went thru the guide at all! Go read again before you post. He has stated EXACTLY what he used, what refining level it is, why he does not use shards and what the overall attacks are.

Inabikari - Raging Tide

LA vs Robes is all a matter of preference. Some say that the added pdef makes up for the lack of damage, whereas others would argue that added damage makes kiting easier and that enemies couldn't hit you. I find it easier just to stat pure mag as I go and work my butt off for the garnet shards that i'd eventually need. (I think that the citrine effect looks freaking awesome, but I wear my fash anyway)

ihatechavs

The comparison has been updated to include the formula provided by Cholla and the suggestion made by Dvalinn to reiterate the raw damage differences.

shiilune

Still wondering what paths you chose...

shiilune wrote: »

Excellent. New updates.

These foundings of yours confirm with mine fron Ecatomb and PWI calc. I thought they were somewhat wrong but now with actual test data they are right.

Please do tell, what 89 paths did you use for the wizards? If you can... I would like to see what type of damage gain there is when activating Wellspring Quaff for a Sage Wizard vs. Non-Sage. It doesn't matter which build, its just that "100% bonus to magic attack" is very vague indeed.

The small comparison I did was when a LA mage would WQ then she would momentarily gain more damage that a pure (alot more). That being said, its even worse the other way round. If a pure wiz WQ's, then she would blow LA out of the water.

Your completing the guide at a much faster pace I would think so kudo's for you. Great job with the whole guide and the moving of your opinions.

I approve of a sticky now.b:pleased

Once again, Excellent work!

On another note... I did a TW this weekend and from my personal experiences, if you are going to TW or PVP then LA is the only way. I do not see a arcane mage surviving at all till pre- 90. On the other hand, I will be restating to pure at 90 as then the pdef has finally cought up to level 70 LA armours which is good enough.

What I mean by my statement is that during the TW, when a archer started shooting at me I could at least run away from him. Now him doing 600 damage to me per shot is nothing to sneeze at, he still ***** me, but I at least got away. A pure mage WILL/WOULD'VE die/d.

These are my personal experiences and I highly recommend LA build if you going against other players. If you just love questing... Pure all the way. That said, to reitirate, after 90+ staying LA is very meh. It is almost not worth it. The pdef finally catches up at that levels for pure, and hell... why not then get all the extra damage with for pure? You are just going too lose 2% crit if you get the right items for pure.

Just my 2 bob of input.

shiilune

BTW... Why isnt this a sticky yet???

_makina_ - Sanctuary

Shouldn't be a sticky. The damage testing is alright but the survivability index is still not complete pertaining to gear so not enough to call it sticky worthy for now.

Shiilune - Dreamweaver

I highly disagree. This will already stop alot of new topics from being LA or AA questions. The survivabilty index can be added at a later stage when he is finished testing it. At most the basic of all questions is already delt with. In depth like you want it does not cater for a large audience in the beginning when they just rolled wizard and want some feedback on what to choose.

_makina_ - Sanctuary

Shiilune - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I highly disagree. This will already stop alot of new topics from being LA or AA questions. The survivabilty index can be added at a later stage when he is finished testing it. At most the basic of all questions is already delt with. In depth like you want it does not cater for a large audience in the beginning when they just rolled wizard and want some feedback on what to choose.

This isnt going to stop LA vs AA threads. Theres always going to be someone who starts a new post. Its just like people making threads of what skills should they lvl first.

Shiilune - Dreamweaver

_makina_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

This isnt going to stop LA vs AA threads. Theres always going to be someone who starts a new post. Its just like people making threads of what skills should they lvl first.

Yes true, but thats not what I said. There will always be threads popping up but at least with this it could be curbed. If a new one pops up it can easily be waved away with a link partaining to this guide. Not a lengthy flame war again between LA and AA users.

To make this clear, yes, you and I agree on the new thread thing. I also believe that you are tired with all the threads asking this basic quesion. When someone new posts u just quick reply, *Link*, mission accomplised.

ihatechavs

Still wondering what paths you chose...

I didn't choose a path for either mage. I can do the quests at any time, they are easy to solo. I didn't think that it was necessary to choose a path in order to do a gear/stat comparison.

The damage testing is alright but the survivability index is still not complete pertaining to gear so not enough to call it sticky worthy for now.

Please clarify what you meant by "pertaining to gear". What other gear needs to be tested?

I hope that you actually took a look at the second post (which has full gear), unlike some of the people posting in this thread. I had made several comments in the first post of the comparison stating something along the lines of: "please see below for additional testing", in order to direct people's attention to the rest of the guide.

Also, in order to finish some of the comparison requests, I need responses to post #63.

There will always be threads popping up but at least with this it could be curbed. If a new one pops up it can easily be waved away with a link partaining to this guide. Not a lengthy flame war again between LA and AA users.

This is part of the reason I did the comparison, so that every thread about armor questions doesn't just keep turning into an unhelpful war without any real information or resolution.

_makina_ - Sanctuary

ihatechavs wrote: »

Please clarify what you meant by "pertaining to gear". What other gear needs to be tested?

I meant like testing gold TT90 and 99 sets, lunar, mix and match such as lunar rings with TT90, event gears, etc. HP sharding going through grade 8-12, Pdef gems going through grade 8-12, attack lvl gems, def lvl gems, channeling gems, and crit gems?

Yeah, a lot of work which i dont expect anyone to do. If you do it, all i can say is tyvm.

ihatechavs

_makina_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

I meant like testing gold TT90 and 99 sets, lunar, mix and match such as lunar rings with TT90, event gears, etc. HP sharding going through grade 8-12, Pdef gems going through grade 8-12, attack lvl gems, def lvl gems, channeling gems, and crit gems?

Yeah, a lot of work which i dont expect anyone to do. If you do it, all i can say is tyvm.

I used the HH99 (aka TT99) gold sets with lv95 CV (aka LG) gold rings. I've already stated that the event gear can't be used where I'm doing the tests.

As for gems, I've already explained how that is irrelevant in the test, since you can simply just add whatever figures you want for each character (whether it be HP/pdef/chan/crit, just pick any number of any grade stones). This is because there is not just 1 "right" way to configure stones, every person would have different choices.

MagicHamsta - Lost City

shiilune wrote: »

I do not see a arcane mage surviving at all till pre- 90.

(O.o)'
woooooot
lucky me
xD
me are pre-90 full arcane.
b:chuckle
wait...why me still dropping like a fly?
xD

great work.
(^.^)
me wish to see where this leads us.


now um....
>.>
<.<
could you mayhaps try the damage test using the wizard debuff Undine Strike?
me wish to see if that widens the damage gap.

_makina_ - Sanctuary

ihatechavs wrote: »

I used the HH99 (aka TT99) gold sets with lv95 CV (aka LG) gold rings. I've already stated that the event gear can't be used where I'm doing the tests.

As for gems, I've already explained how that is irrelevant in the test, since you can simply just add whatever figures you want for each character (whether it be HP/pdef/chan/crit, just pick any number of any grade stones). This is because there is not just 1 "right" way to configure stones, every person would have different choices.

Yeah, i know im asking for too much info/work but without the event gear its incomplete. The channeling/crit shards its more of throwing it out to see what has the best dps doing lets say gush, pyro, stone, gush, pryo, stone like that its just nice to know and how much crit really effects it regularly over lets say 1000 hits. The pdef/hp/vit stones its more for comparing what works better for individual builds, what doesnt, when the threshold has been reached when it no longer is worth it. You can use the generic choices such as full hp shards, full pdef shards, cape and hat hp the rest pdef, or vice versa.

Its ok, I'm grateful you did do this testing but even you admit its incomplete.

Jiblet - Sanctuary

This is an interesting piece of work, and many thanks to the OP for pulling it all together. Having gone through your numbers and the way you have reviewed pdef based upon relatively low numbers (even refined +12) which is mainly down to lack of buffs, it would be very interesting to see how "final form" equipped mages (or as close to this as possible) that is partially or fully buffed would fare.

My understanding (which may not be correct tbh) is that damage reduction is not linear to pdef, and that the law of diminishing returns applies to damage reduction when above a certain level of pdef (some people say 9k pdef, others more).

Even with your +12 refines your final pdef numbers fall well below 9k, and although taking pdef as a direct comparison between AA/LA is viable, taking damage reduction as the comparison may be more effective if you are looking for a real world example.

I am biased here as I'm a pretty highly geared AA mage, but I do know that it is possible to have 11k+ pdef fullbuffed as an arcane build. If the law of diminishing returns does apply, it would be interesting to compare damage reduction between endgame AA/LA, as this may provide some interesting results....

Of course, I've based my build on "gut feel", and tbh I don't know for sure if using dam reduction will throw up anything interesting - this is more a suggestion based upon the idea that although dam reduction would provide a more interesting comparison that straight pdef, on the premise that although unbuffed provides a simpler more consistent benchmark for testing, what self respecting mage wouldn't put up earth barrier (at the very least) in cases where pdef is important, and also that if there is a dimishing returns factor then using base pdef as opposed to a "real world" situation would not allow this to play a part as your comparison pdef number would be too low to allow this to play a part in the model.

As I said, this is just a suggestion, and I love what you are doing here....wish I had the time to do it myself tbh...

Shiilune - Dreamweaver

Haha hamsta.

_makina_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah, i know im asking for too much info/work but without the event gear its incomplete. The channeling/crit shards its more of throwing it out to see what has the best dps doing lets say gush, pyro, stone, gush, pryo, stone like that its just nice to know and how much crit really effects it regularly over lets say 1000 hits. The pdef/hp/vit stones its more for comparing what works better for individual builds, what doesnt, when the threshold has been reached when it no longer is worth it. You can use the generic choices such as full hp shards, full pdef shards, cape and hat hp the rest pdef, or vice versa.

Its ok, I'm grateful you did do this testing but even you admit its incomplete.

What you are basicaly asking for is impossible. If you want all those results he would have too make 2 brand new characters on valid servers, and get them both to 101. That would take months. Even if he "oracle's" he still has to get all that money or buy gold. Now I do not know about you but I hardly know of anyone over 100mil in there bank nevermind 1bil+ to get all those stuff. If he buys gold even then it would cost over thousands off dollars. If you really want more out of this go to pwi calc and create a ultimate char there for both armours. Anything more than these stuff he used is basicly wanting your characte and builld out on a golden platter. Where's the fun in that?

I do not see him gaining any benefit in this. Nor does he get paid to do this. I for one (and alot of others) am gratefull for the work that he has done. Thats my thoughts.

_makina_ - Sanctuary

Shiilune - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Haha hamsta.



What you are basicaly asking for is impossible. If you want all those results he would have too make 2 brand new characters on valid servers, and get them both to 101. That would take months. Even if he "oracle's" he still has to get all that money or buy gold. Now I do not know about you but I hardly know of anyone over 100mil in there bank nevermind 1bil+ to get all those stuff. If he buys gold even then it would cost over thousands off dollars. If you really want more out of this go to pwi calc and create a ultimate char there for both armours. Anything more than these stuff he used is basicly wanting your characte and builld out on a golden platter. Where's the fun in that?

I do not see him gaining any benefit in this. Nor does he get paid to do this. I for one (and alot of others) am gratefull for the work that he has done. Thats my thoughts.

If you havent noticed his testing was done on private servers.

Tojop - Dreamweaver

Read the guide, and I must say great effort. 90% of the criticisms are by people who OBVIUOSLY did not read/ignored some/most of what you actually wrote. At the very least you're on the right track.

My two cents: use the TT 90 green armors instead of 99, as that is when most (I think?) wizards restat from LA to full mag.

ihatechavs

You are just going too lose 2% crit if you get the right items for pure.

This would only be true at lower levels. At higher levels like 90+, you will be at least 5% behind, since any light armor user at that level will have at least 100 dex/agi. Of course you can choose more crit gear, but so could any other character. The 5% gap would remain constant, since it is independent of gear.

_makina_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you havent noticed his testing was done on private servers.

As I've already stated, I can't use the event gear (and other stuff) on anything but PWI, hence the reason Shiilune said that I'd have to create 2 new characters on PWI in order to do the comparisons that you've requested. Shiilune is correct that it would cost significant amount of money and time to accomplish your requests on PWI, hence the reason they will not be performed.

My two cents: use the TT 90 green armors instead of 99, as that is when most (I think?) wizards restat from LA to full mag.

I understand the reason for this request and you are indeed correct that many LA restat to robes at 90. The reasons I used HH99 gold armor are: 1) the characters start at lv100 (as stated in the comparison) and I gave them stats for armor around their level 2) I can instantly acquire only gold mats at any time, green mats would have to be farmed 3) people keep talking about "end-game" type of gear, or at least theoretical comparisons at high levels so I used gear that lv100+ might be using.

As some other user already mentioned in this thread, he didn't even know any high level light armor users and I'm sure that's the case for most people (does anyone here even know a single lv90 or 95+ light armor user?). This makes it hard for people with "normal" characters on PWI to compare to a light armor user of comparable level. Most comparisons are done with a lv90+ robe user versus a lv8X light armor user (or even people who restat comparing to their previous damage). These types of comparisons are very common and highly inaccurate, which is where most of the current misinformation stems from.

Even with your +12 refines your final pdef numbers fall well below 9k, and although taking pdef as a direct comparison between AA/LA is viable, taking damage reduction as the comparison may be more effective if you are looking for a real world example.

Every test included the damage reduction percentages that the game provides, all screenshots were included. All of the jewelry and accessories were +11 for each character. The armor was +12, but that's irrelevant when comparing defense ratings, since refining armor does not alter the defensive values, it only adds HP. The defense ratings are accurate, but most people always try to look at their own stats after buffs cause they like seeing bigger numbers.

Most of the figures thrown around when people talk about "diminishing returns" are often incorrect since people don't seem to understand how percentages and scaling are applied. They often like to use the phrase to invalidate the need for more pdef when they see someone who has more than they do.

Cholla's explanation in post #83 of what most call "diminishing returns", is dead-on. The 8-9K "barrier" that most people refer to is not actually correct, if you consider how "diminishing returns" actually works. If you look at the results of my tests, you'll see that even going past 6K pdef gives a pretty bad return on the damage reduction rating. More specifically, going from about 6K pdef to 8K pdef increased the dam.red.% from 60% to 66%, but going from about 4K to 6K pdef made the rating go from 49% to 60%. This means that the initial addition of 2K pdef gave 11%, but adding yet another 2K pdef only gave 6%. Basically, it all comes down to how far you are willing to refine stuff to get that little bit of edge, however inefficient the result may be (I'm referring to the money spent to def. percentage ratio).

this is more a suggestion based upon the idea that although dam reduction would provide a more interesting comparison that straight pdef, on the premise that although unbuffed provides a simpler more consistent benchmark for testing, what self respecting mage wouldn't put up earth barrier (at the very least) in cases where pdef is important, and also that if there is a dimishing returns factor then using base pdef as opposed to a "real world" situation would not allow this to play a part as your comparison pdef number would be too low to allow this to play a part in the model.

I did include all of the results for Earth Barrier. As for other buffs, that is a very mixed bag. People will probably have different ideas of what "fully buffed" is. Some might say it is just cleric+self buffs, others might say to include WR and WB buffs, and some may even include using potions or other such outside factors.

If you really want to see how bad the dam.red.% return is when characters have really high defense ratings, I could simply just make a WB with highly-refined gear, tons of str, and an assortment of buffs, but that would not directly pertain to the comparison that I've done.

could you mayhaps try the damage test using the wizard debuff Undine Strike?
me wish to see if that widens the damage gap.

Unfortunately, lv79 and lv100 skills are not implemented properly where I'm doing the testing. I had created the skill book, but when I went to learn it at the NPC, it just crashed the game. I really wanted to test these skills on all sorts of characters, but it's not under my control

There are drawbacks to using other servers since PWI has copyright protection on most of the content. This limits other servers on what they can provide to their players. Consequently, I am restricted to what they have on the servers, so it is hard to fulfill every request.

Here's a rundown of what is available for gear:
-Any HH (TT) items, but only gold and red (lv100) stuff can be instantly obtained.
-Any CV (LG) items (green included) can be instantly obtained.
-Any FW (FC) items (green included) can be instantly obtained.

As for event gear, it either doesn't exist or it has been heavily altered to fit some other need (like over-powered donation gear).

I wish I had more to test with, but I've been looking at other test servers and they are all basically the same. A few have tried to add newer stuff, but it's usually bugged, heavily altered compared to PWI, or in violation of copyrights (which means it would probably get shutdown).

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

But your work was pretty amazing. I'm still staying pure, but for another it can be very useful. b:victory

Twinkiewinki - Harshlands

wow...nice work


This should be stickied

NonameWiz - Sanctuary

Necro FTW

/10char

Saturday - Harshlands

This is really good info, I recommend a sticky

_Zappy_ - Heavens Tear

Necro...again.

But true, should be stickied.
Almost making me doubt my own build o.O

CHEAPO - Harshlands

Why isnt this stickied yet?!

It gives much more information than 99% of the people in the wizard forum giving random statement without any calculations/tests like "AA>LA", "AA has 192738912648109273x more damage", "no one should go LA after 90", "I one shot everyone as AA" blah blah blah...


STICKYYY PL0XXX

Adroit - Lost City

CHEAPO - Harshlands wrote: »

Why isnt this stickied yet?!

It gives much more information than 99% of the people in the wizard forum giving random statement without any calculations/tests like "AA>LA", "AA has 192738912648109273x more damage", "no one should go LA after 90", "I one shot everyone as AA" blah blah blah...


STICKYYY PL0XXX

The analysis/results mean nothing in this. The gear that was picked is all wrong.. and really skews the results. Pretty easy to show this, just come up with a LA build and have somebody else make an equivalent arcane build.. the results are way different than this "analysis" came up with.

MasterShi - Dreamweaver

with the wide availability of the rank8 gear and "really not so hard to get" rank9, endgame discussion about LA vs AA armor is obsolete.
The math behind the OP is nice, but PWI just made all of that useless and a waste of time with just 1 sale.