Query: Demon Ironwood

no, the debuff doesnt work 80% of the time, it rarely goes off at that.the first time ive seen it work though (yesterday) was pretty amazing though. its really a gambler's kind of skill.

sage is way more consistent in it moves, and works wonderfully in TW/support. id recommend doing it.

Armor break is a lot more effective against other players than against mobs.

Most mobs have a measly 1k-3k pdef, representing only 30%-45% damage reduction at level 90. Sage's 40% debuff would increase damage by 13%-22%. Demon's 100% debuff would increase damage by 42%-83%. In terms of average effectiveness (i.e. factoring in times when Demon Ironwood does nothing), Sage is a 13%-22% damage increase while Demon is a 8%-17% increase.

Totally different story against a player with 10k pdef. That's 73.5% damage reduction at level 90. Sage's debuff would increase damage by 42%. Demon's debuff would increase damage by 278% (yes, nearly quadruple). In terms of average effectiveness, Sage is a 42% damage increase while Demon is a 56% increase. So for higher pdef targets, the advantage swings in favor of Demon Ironwood.

Also keep in mind that both the level 79 skill Myriad Rainbows can also break armor at about the same rate as Demon Ironwood. Downsides are it costs 800 mana and has a 20 sec cooldown. Upsides are it's available to both Sage and Demon venos, is instant cast, and can also do a mind break (reduce mdef to zero) and apply two DoTs.

Edit: Since multiple demon venos was brought up, here are the chances of the target getting armor break based on number of demon venos casting it:

1 veno: 20%
2 venos: 36%
3 venos: 49%
4 venos: 59%
5 venos: 67%
6 venos: 74%
10 venos: 89%
15 venos: 96%

Well, you don't have to take every available skill - you could stick with the normal ironwood if you prefer a smaller, but more reliable, armour break - whilst still getting whichever demon skills you do fancy?

Another thing to consider is that there's usually other people in a squad able to armour break - so as long as they know to hold off until your demon either wears off or misses, you should still have SOME armour break.


Interesting question - what happens in the following situation?
1. Some barb or cleric or wizard or whoever the heck maybe with a genie or another pet or whatever, slaps on a 16% armour break.
2. You cast demon - and it misses.

Does it CLEAR the existing debuff (as though overwriting) or does it leave the existing one there?

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

...

Interesting question - what happens in the following situation?
1. Some barb or cleric or wizard or whoever the heck maybe with a genie or another pet or whatever, slaps on a 16% armour break.
2. You cast demon - and it misses.

Does it CLEAR the existing debuff (as though overwriting) or does it leave the existing one there?

Leaves the existing debuff. Since the debuff didn't activate at all, there's no way it can overwrite a preexisting debuff.
For example; if you placed a little mustard on a sandwich and then placed no mustard at all, doesn't the little mustard stay on the sandwich?

Mamiko_mao - Sanctuary wrote: »

Er, I meant it would NOT work 80% of the time.

Anyways, to everyone who replied, thanks! So it basically means this skill, if I get it, is hit or miss. Hm.... time to ponder my future veno.

I'm a PvE veno, so opinions on what I should get are welcome. I WAS gonna go Demon, but the Ironwood debate has put me on the fence. b:cry

I'm pretty sure that if a demon ironwood procs, the target takes 100% physical damage, including PvP and PvE. So a boss in TT would take 100% damage from physical DD's and from your pet. I'm not sure, though.

isn't sage's armourbreak weaker then the cleric one ? I think I read that somewhere.
I will go demon, ironwood does pretty nice damage, I wouldn't want to hold it back when a cleric has used it's armor break spell...

Waterfal - Sanctuary wrote: »

isn't sage's armourbreak weaker then the cleric one ? I think I read that somewhere.
I will go demon, ironwood does pretty nice damage, I wouldn't want to hold it back when a cleric has used it's armor break spell...

Regular cleric dimensional seal has a 30% debuff, just like regular Ironwood. Sage/Demon cleric dimensional seal is 40% just like Sage Ironwood.

It's Barb Devour which is better - 50% at level 10. But barbs I've talked to said they generally have enough chi to use Devour, or to hold aggro, not both. So you'd only have to hold back on Ironwood if the barb is not tanking and wants to be in tiger form instead of humanoid form for maximum damage (generally when they want to interrupt a boss which casts).

Mamiko_mao - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hm. @Momento: My primary use for Demon Ironwood is actually in most instances (TT/FB/FC), where a flying pet is impossible. And anyway I can't afford one (not if I want my demon skills anyway). T_T

@Solandri: Good point. I COULD use Lending Hand to help the barb, but its cooldown means it's only good for a short while.

@Vitenka: That's the thing. I fancy an equal number of skills on both Demon and Sage, and Ironwood is the only skill that pushes me in either direction.

I guess it comes down to a preference for the Veno's own DPS abilities vs. the squad's benefits of a demon ironwood. If I had 2 archers doing DPS (which is a regular thing in my faction) or 1 archer/1 BM and 1 barb tank, that sudden debuff might be a good thing assuming aggro isn't stolen. *ponders some more*

However, do not forget that you already get 2 other skills with that same skill and same chance of it happening, both myriads have a 20% chance of a armor break, on top of a 20% chance of a mind break, and 20% each for the DOT skills. And you can get lucky and have all of them hit at the same time.
The demon ironwood benefit would be the same as those 2 skills, meaning you would have 3 skills that had the exact same chance to do the exact same thing. Sage ironwood would give you the guaranteed 30% for 20 seconds, and you could still try to play the chance game with the two myriad skills.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Armor break is a lot more effective against other players than against mobs.

Most mobs have a measly 1k-3k pdef, representing only 30%-45% damage reduction at level 90. Sage's 40% debuff would increase damage by 13%-22%. Demon's 100% debuff would increase damage by 42%-83%. In terms of average effectiveness (i.e. factoring in times when Demon Ironwood does nothing), Sage is a 13%-22% damage increase while Demon is a 8%-17% increase.

Totally different story against a player with 10k pdef. That's 73.5% damage reduction at level 90. Sage's debuff would increase damage by 42%. Demon's debuff would increase damage by 278% (yes, nearly quadruple). In terms of average effectiveness, Sage is a 42% damage increase while Demon is a 56% increase. So for higher pdef targets, the advantage swings in favor of Demon Ironwood.

Also keep in mind that both the level 79 skill Myriad Rainbows can also break armor at about the same rate as Demon Ironwood. Downsides are it costs 800 mana and has a 20 sec cooldown. Upsides are it's available to both Sage and Demon venos, is instant cast, and can also do a mind break (reduce mdef to zero) and apply two DoTs.

Edit: Since multiple demon venos was brought up, here are the chances of the target getting armor break based on number of demon venos casting it:

1 veno: 20%
2 venos: 36%
3 venos: 49%
4 venos: 59%
5 venos: 67%
6 venos: 74%
10 venos: 89%
15 venos: 96%

you forget that debuffs dont affect stats granted by buffs so fully buufed that player still has 120% of their base after the 100% redux

yes i know venos can purge

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

A good archer should be able to survive pulling aggro on various [?] bosses. Though, depending on which approach you take, your companions might get annoyed with you.

To quote one relatively recent squad: "Oh, no, not again!" and "Fleuri, bring him back here!". So... if you are an archer and you pull aggro on a [?], surviving is just a part of the problem.

I mostly agree as I had archers tanking WB or TT bosses. As for surviving... How do you think how fast can herc get aggro back from higher level archer? When my herc was only lvl82-86, it lost aggro to lvl90 archer if sparked or used -int gears in TT3-1. And herc couldn't get aggro back unless archer died.

"Let's kill the archer" is rather in guild thing, I guess... That's why that part of my post was aimed to only Mamiko_mao. I have a habit to take an archer with me when I go to aoe grind with herc to speed things up. Almost on all groups archer steals aggro few times and often almost dies. That's where the joke came from... Actually a good practice for archer on aggro control and surviving b:chuckle

demon ironwood it sux pve since unreliable and a demon veno needs to save chi by any means....that result u will not use that skill in pve ever... but in pk if u break armor on bm or barbar your nyx will do crazy dmg on him.. not to mention light or arcane... so if you are pve player u got 3 options ...
1)don't learn lvl 11 and still get break 100% and is cool in tt
2)put on golem skill to break armor is pretty nice
3)go sage

but if you into pk u forced to learn it since 20% of times is win winb:victory..
i break armor on a bm with 79 skill and nyx hit him 800 .. and also very funny story ..on another server i was after a barbar to kill him ... i had barbar 100 and he was 90-100 not sure ...and a veno was with me ..we chase him a while then nyx stun him i go change human and hit perdition on barbar ..1 hit 16500 dmg....1 hit dead just because veno managed to break his defense... was very scary thing lol since a perdition does 2-4k on a barbarb:dirty

just because u 97 don't means you are not noob and offending also...you can disagree and hold insults for you... demon ironwood can cast 10 times and not once work i tested myself but if u keep lvl 10 then all PARTY will benefit the 10% more dmg or so......and 10% like non stop.. go check or don't, don't matter to me b:kiss..
also sage veno is just as strong as a demon just that his power relay in other skills... how more noob can u be then state sage veno sux? go buy a mirror!

Nyxya - Harshlands wrote: »

demon ironwood can cast 10 times and not once work i tested myself but if u keep lvl 10 then all PARTY will benefit the 10% more dmg or so......and 10% like non stop.. go check or don't, don't matter to me b:kiss..

In 10 casts of Demon ironwood, the chance of it going off:

0 times = 10.7% of the time
1 time = 26.8%
2 times = 30.2%
3 times = 20.1%
4 times = 8.8%
5 times = 2.6%
6 times = 0.6%
7 times = 0.1%
8+ times = effectively zero (~ 1 in 10,000)

So the vast majority of the time (~86%), in 10 casts you're going to have it land 1-4 times.

Against a 1.5k-3k pdef mob, I calculated earlier that Demon Ironwood will on average increase damage by 8%-17%. (There's a typo and I wrote 1k-3k, but I meant 1.5k-3k.)

Level 10 Ironwood (30% debuff) will increase damage by 10%-16%. So in terms of average damage increase, there's not much difference between the two. You can see that by 3k pdef, Demon Ironwood's average damage increase has already surpassed that of regular Ironwood. Demon will average even better against targets with higher pdef.