Magmites

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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    All that work, and it ignores the point that I was addressing". [pet not tanking]
    Oh, well then that's a lot easier to figure out (my apologies for misreading). Ranged marksman does 1581 DPS. Melee magmite with Bash 5 does 2349 DPS. Difference is 818 DPS. Figure a level 90 veno has about 4500 m.atk, and an Ironwood + 3xVenomous sequence will do will do (3*4500 + 1328) + 3*(4500+966) =31226 damage in 4*2.5 sec, or about 3123 DPS. Ironwood decreases pdef by 30%, which should increase damage by about 20%, meaning the difference in pet damage is 818*1.2 = 981 DPS.

    3123 / 981 = 3.2. For you to do more damage using the marksman (no heals) than the magmite (heals), you'd have to be casting heal once every 3.2 spellcasts.

    So basically, is the physical AOE frequent enough to require an average of one heal for every 2.2 nukes? If you're healing less than that, you'll do more damage with the magmite. If you're healing more often than that, you'll do more damage with the marksman at range. (Feel free to toss in your own m.atk score @ level 90. I'm not drawing a conclusions here since I haven't encountered many physical AOE bosses. I'm just trying to make the comparison easier.)
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Rolling your eyes does not change the fact that if you looking at which one of the 2 is best, the 49 extra HP does make a difference.

    For tanking bosses, but not for grinding according to you. -That's what the eyes is about: hypocrisy.
    The difference in attack makes a difference in long fights, as stated. If the difference is 60 dps between the two, on a 5 minute boss fight (not unresonable), the CMag will outdamage the Puppet by 18,000 attack points.

    You're leaving out critical info, like their levels. Some of my attacks are over 18,000 so in this case: it would be saving me less than one attack (pet is still assisting getting at least 2 atks per 1 of mine). Is the difference of one hit every 5 minutes worth the extra slow speed of the CMag, or the lack of/ cost of upgraded skills?
    If you are getting one of the two, would you rather get the model that does 18,000 less damage over 5 minutes? This is using regular attacks only, once you add some skills, that difference goes up.

    If those were the only factors of course, but they're not. The higher levels have faster speeds and better / higher skills (free). Cost of investing in a CMag tends to impede acquiring a Herc which also makes the Magmite obsolete if it wasn't already.
    No clue what you mean by the comment CMags are slow... It could crawl there (which almost does), and it would still not change the fact that it has higher damage and slightly better resistances and HP. On a boss figth, it lasts long enough where even small DPS or defense differences are magnified.

    If it takes you longer to level it than a faster pet because of it's speed, that time lost can be weighed against any time it may save you in it's other use. We aren't just talking here about how long it takes to get from mob to mob, we're talking how you get chased off the battle field because it can't catch the mob that ambushed you too.
    One heal after the AOE is enough to bring CMag back to speed, so it is not a big deal, also, if you using a ranged pet, you are not debuffing, so you are penalizing your party and making it harder on the tank when you could just have pet use Howl and Threaten in coordination with the tank and keep his damage reduced the all fight, as well as increasing all the other caster's dps by using howl, the extra magic damage for everyone sure would off-set one less scarab from you while you heal after the aoe.

    The tank can either tank or can't. It doesn't make it harder on them if you're not using Threaten. It may make it harder on the Cleric, but you'd have to weigh in the reflect damage loss. Clerics also have an Elemental Seal that you'd be wasting by using Howl:
    http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php wrote:
    Range 26.5meters
    Mana 192
    Channel 1.0 seconds
    Cast 1.0 seconds
    Cooldown 3.0 seconds
    Weapon Unarmed, Magic Instruments

    Requisite Cultivation Aware of Principle
    Manipulate one's energy to form the Elemental Seal. Reduces your magic
    defense by 30% of equipment value to reduce the enemy's
    magic defense by 30% of equipment value. Lasts 20 seconds.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    tweakz, seeing as you seem to believe the herc to be the end-all and be-all of "tank" pets, let me ask this. How well does it hold aggro at your level? and did you have to replace pounce to get it to hold aggro?

    Now, considering magmites. I understand the damage difference between a Crystalline Magmite and a Torgrin Puppet is rather large over the course of a long fight. But does this damage difference really matter? from the numbers I've seen, it seems like using a puppet instead of a crystalline would turn a 5 minute fight into a 6 minute fight. I would also like to know if a difference of 0.3 m/s makes a difference at all in a pet.

    And just one more question. Does a magmite really become "obsolete" after one acquires a Hercules?
  • Bearleeable - Lost City
    Bearleeable - Lost City Posts: 445 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Ok, so I bought my wife a herc after seriously upgrading her magmite, which i now have on my veno. ITs got bash 4, tough 4, Peirce 4, Roar 2. I love the Roar for when things go bad, or the tank is taking too much of a beating and needs a second to get fully healed. Is my golem really going to be all that bad once i get all his skills maxed? He's lvl 61 now and i'm lvl 63.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Isala - Sanctuary
    Isala - Sanctuary Posts: 1,607 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Bearleeable - Lost City wrote: »
    Ok, so I bought my wife a herc after seriously upgrading her magmite, which i now have on my veno. ITs got bash 4, tough 4, Peirce 4, Roar 2. I love the Roar for when things go bad, or the tank is taking too much of a beating and needs a second to get fully healed. Is my golem really going to be all that bad once i get all his skills maxed? He's lvl 61 now and i'm lvl 63.

    Trust me. Don't listen to the naysayers. I still love my Golem, and he's 83 with me. My Herc is also 83. Both of them have their uses, and some of those uses overlap. Keep the Golem. With those skills you've got on him, he's going to be a force of nature.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    tweakz, seeing as you seem to believe the herc to be the end-all and be-all of "tank" pets, let me ask this. How well does it hold aggro at your level? and did you have to replace pounce to get it to hold aggro?

    No: I believe a ranged pet can tank better the World Bosses I've checked because of their lower mag to phys atk. Yes I replaced pounce, but I also have no base to compare it to. I started out making a lot of mistakes by following the common advice here. Some people are happy with pounce. I certainly love it on my Armored Bear.
    Now, considering magmites. I understand the damage difference between a Crystalline Magmite and a Torgrin Puppet is rather large over the course of a long fight. But does this damage difference really matter? from the numbers I've seen, it seems like using a puppet instead of a crystalline would turn a 5 minute fight into a 6 minute fight. I would also like to know if a difference of 0.3 m/s makes a difference at all in a pet.

    From the numbers I just read, we're looking at <2.3 seconds added on to 5 minutes: not a whole minute. As far as speed goes tbh, I wouldn't waste pet bag space on any of the magmites especially at that level.
    And just one more question. Does a magmite really become "obsolete" after one acquires a Hercules?

    You'll find people digging up obscure uses for them, but in most cases there are comparable alternatives with broader use pets which results in lower costs. I think the magmite is like that ratty ugly old teddy bear we don't want to discard because we sympathize with it. -it's not real ;-)
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • ajgg1
    ajgg1 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    here's the primary and burning question:


    what would you all do if hercs werent available?


    (from my understanding, hercs werent in-game at the start)



    thats right, ya'll would ALL have crystilline magmites
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    ajgg1 wrote: »
    here's the primary and burning question:


    what would you all do if hercs werent available?


    (from my understanding, hercs werent in-game at the start)



    thats right, ya'll would ALL have crystilline magmites

    tweakz wouldn't. But I would.

    See, once I hit level 80, I realized that everything I have been doing with a Shadou Cub, I could do with a magmite more easily. I just don't like the magmites' slow speed.
  • ajgg1
    ajgg1 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    tweakz wouldn't. But I would.

    b:chuckle
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    See, once I hit level 80, I realized that everything I have been doing with a Shadou Cub, I could do with a magmite more easily. I just don't like the magmites' slow speed.

    god, couldnt agree more about the speed... which is why i switched to the Quadastral Beetle King... no idea about 80+, but i know for a fact that its functioning on par/better than cmag at 50s
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    ajgg1 wrote: »
    here's the primary and burning question:


    what would you all do if hercs werent available?


    (from my understanding, hercs werent in-game at the start)



    thats right, ya'll would ALL have crystilline magmites

    What would I do? I would use my nix. What would I do if that weren't in either? I would go back to what I used before my herc, a combo of a magmite/antelope/eldergoth to tank. Maybe I would use a cub, but I doubt it. I don't like the attack on it.
  • Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    I think the real question I'm trying to ask is...should I even bother raising a magmite now, when my ultimate goal is to get a herc?
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    ajgg1 wrote: »
    thats right, ya'll would ALL have crystilline magmites

    Wrong. Until people can start showing me bosses that only a magmite can tank that no other common pet can, I have no interest in them. There is Quadastral Beetle King, Eldergoth Marksman, Qingfu, Shadou Cub, and probably others that would be preferable.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • ajgg1
    ajgg1 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I think the real question I'm trying to ask is...should I even bother raising a magmite now, when my ultimate goal is to get a herc?

    raise the magmite as long as you dont spend money to upgrade its skills, or, if you are gonna need higherlvl skills/more skills, then upgrade to the togirn when you're at that level...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    ajgg1 wrote: »
    raise the magmite as long as you dont spend money to upgrade its skills, or, if you are gonna need higherlvl skills/more skills, then upgrade to the togirn when you're at that level...

    Take a close look at my character level. I'm beyond the level of any magmite/torgrin, but it's good advice for a low level character.

    I stopped raising a magmite at level 51 in favor of a Shadou Cub.

    But around my level are many "soloable" bosses that my cub simply cannot tank because of his physical defense. Also, these bosses have significantly less magic attack than physical attack. Their magic hits my cub for 500-600, where as their physical attacks hit for over 1500.

    Edit: I've left out a question. Should I even bother getting a Hercules at all? I don't do anything that would require one, and given the ever climbing price of gold, I don't think I will be able to afford one any time soon.
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    For tanking bosses, but not for grinding according to you. -That's what the eyes is about: hypocrisy.

    You're leaving out critical info, like their levels. Some of my attacks are over 18,000 so in this case: it would be saving me less than one attack (pet is still assisting getting at least 2 atks per 1 of mine). Is the difference of one hit every 5 minutes worth the extra slow speed of the CMag, or the lack of/ cost of upgraded skills?

    If those were the only factors of course, but they're not. The higher levels have faster speeds and better / higher skills (free). Cost of investing in a CMag tends to impede acquiring a Herc which also makes the Magmite obsolete if it wasn't already.

    If it takes you longer to level it than a faster pet because of it's speed, that time lost can be weighed against any time it may save you in it's other use. We aren't just talking here about how long it takes to get from mob to mob, we're talking how you get chased off the battle field because it can't catch the mob that ambushed you too.

    The tank can either tank or can't. It doesn't make it harder on them if you're not using Threaten. It may make it harder on the Cleric, but you'd have to weigh in the reflect damage loss. Clerics also have an Elemental Seal that you'd be wasting by using Howl:

    I said: "Not quite..... The puppet has a little less HP, therefore a hit that would leave the CMag with 5 HP would kill the Puppet. I know it is a tad extreme, but at this level this is what we are looking at. Also, you will not be tanking much, to be honest, mostly you will be dishing out damage, and the CMag has higher damage than the Puppet."

    You cannot argue with that unless you selectively quote things out of context. When grinding, I doubt a golem would come across a mob that does the type of damage that would one-hit the puppet, therefore they both would work, no contradiction there either. However, since, on top of more HP and defense, the CMag/VMag also have higher attack, on bosses fights, they would be better than a puppet, since they last long enough to where the dps difference would be relevant.

    Original skill levels are irrelevant at high level. Any high level that uses a CMag, knows its limitation, and most of us, have extra skills on our mags. The original skills are irrelevant, since, with the exception of maybe bash or tough, you will be replacing them.

    If you get ambushed, you are doing something wrong. I almost never get ambushed. It is called environmental awareness, when a mob first respawns you have 3 secs to get out of the way. I have yet to get nailed by any of them, unless it was my choice to tank it (magic mobs usualy) while the pet finished off the current mob. I have had them spawn next to me, but I have enough time to move away before they go aggro.

    If you play alot with other people in groups, you will learn that tanks do not enjoy to have high repair bills or to have their charms ticking alot. Using threaten helps with both, since it lowers the damage they take.

    If the cleric is using BB he is not using seal...... If you do runs with a party, you will also know that the cleric is either spam healing or using BB/RB, not leaving a very big window for them to cast debuffs.... That is where howl comes in handy to help the all party.

    Maxing out a CMag and re-skilling it is usualy recommended for AFTER you get the herc. As pointed out, 2 level 1 skills hold more aggro than 1 level 5 skill. The CMag has 1 level 2 and 1 level 1 aggro skill, so if you grab a elemental bash for sub 50k in AH, you can add a cheap 3rd aggro skill, and you would not loose aggro...

    It really does not make a huge difference to spend 50k-100k, in skills for a CMag or VMag until you get a herc. Assuming 20million for the Herc, that represents less than 0.5%.
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Edit: I've left out a question. Should I even bother getting a Hercules at all? I don't do anything that would require one, and given the ever climbing price of gold, I don't think I will be able to afford one any time soon.

    Well, I would still save for one. Even though you can do 95% of the game content without one, it is nice to be able to be able to pull the herc out and do something, when you either do not feel like being in a party or you do not want to wait for a party to kill something. Also, you really kind of need one if you plan on doing Rebirths, some of the TT 3-xs party mode, and some of the lunar quests.
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.

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