Magmites
Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver
Posts: 660 Arc User
I've been doing some thinking as I grind away with my shadou cub. His damage sucks. This means, that bosses take significantly longer to kill.
Now everyone and their grandmother says magmites make the best "tanks" next to a herc.
but I have just one question. How do you high level venos cope with the magmites slow speed? I mean, with summer sprint, I run faster than a level 90 magmite, which just seems wrong to me.
Also, to anyone who's good at number crunching...I'd like to know the difference between a same level volcanic magmite, and shikou valorian, in terms of percent damage reduction, and percent damage. (without skills)
Now everyone and their grandmother says magmites make the best "tanks" next to a herc.
but I have just one question. How do you high level venos cope with the magmites slow speed? I mean, with summer sprint, I run faster than a level 90 magmite, which just seems wrong to me.
Also, to anyone who's good at number crunching...I'd like to know the difference between a same level volcanic magmite, and shikou valorian, in terms of percent damage reduction, and percent damage. (without skills)
Post edited by Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver on
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Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »Now everyone and their grandmother says magmites make the best "tanks" next to a herc.
but I have just one question. How do you high level venos cope with the magmites slow speed? I mean, with summer sprint, I run faster than a level 90 magmite, which just seems wrong to me.
1. Best Physical tanks, after herc. There is a difference between best physical, magic or all-around.
2. If you are grinding you are not running around that much (specialy if you are doing it on physical mobs, and since you are using a golem, I can only expect you grinding on physical mobs), so it is not an issue. For when you have to go from point A to point B, you can either ignore golem, and sooner or later it will show up right next to you, or you can unsummon golem, run, re-summon golem.
Besides you are a young, healthy fox, so you run fast... while the mag is... well.... a pile of rocks..... Something would be wrong if a pile of rocks could run faster than a veno
Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
This means, that bosses take significantly longer to kill.
No. It doesn't have the dangerous spikes that a Magmite will from magic attacks so instead of spam healing you can more safely attack to compensate.Now everyone and their grandmother says magmites make the best "tanks" next to a herc.
No, there are some of use that don't follow or parrot the poor advice commonly given here.How do you high level venos cope with the magmites slow speed?
High level veno should have no problem at all acquiring a Herc, and selling off worthless Magmite.
With magmites, you'd probably want to accentuate their atk with dmg skills. With the Cub, you'd want to accentuate with other skills like Howl, Tough (which also speed up killing). When it comes down to it: you can tank more with a Cub, cub is faster, and less visually obstructive. Comparing based on DPS doesn't make sense.Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
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High level veno should have no problem at all acquiring a Herc, and selling off worthless Magmite.
That seems to be the answer to any question these days.
But, being the noob veno who doesn't know how to make money effectively, I cannot afford a herc. I can't even dream of owning both pets....but that's beside the point I suppose.0 -
Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »That seems to be the answer to any question these days.
But, being the noob veno who doesn't know how to make money effectively, I cannot afford a herc. I can't even dream of owning both pets....but that's beside the point I suppose.
There are so many ways to acquire coin. Lately I've been clearing FB's for bounty hunters in trade for drops. Today I did FB69 and got a 3* item, Mold: Cape of Tauran Chieftan, and all drops and coin along the way. The mold alone sells for no less than 6.5m in AH. This is well over 1/4 what the Herc or Nix cost me, and is something you're capable of doing at your level. There's buying and selling: I've bought items for ~100k and sold for 8m, 1.2m, etc. There's One Man Army which pays at least 30k per run for me, but often 50K + along with the occasional valuable/ rare stuff. You shouldn't have much problem acquiring one in a single level at your level.Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
Alternatively you can play the economy a bit. These Jones events seem to be spawning every three months. When one occurs, buy up a lot of those Jiaozi and Sesame pots for around 200 to 400 coin each. A couple weeks after the event is over, start selling them at around 1200 to 1500 each. You'll find you'll end up with quite a lot of money. If things go well enough for me, I should have a phoenix when I've sold my current stash and still have enough money to repeat the process in three months.0
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Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »That seems to be the answer to any question these days.
But, being the noob veno who doesn't know how to make money effectively, I cannot afford a herc. I can't even dream of owning both pets....but that's beside the point I suppose.
I'd suggest trying Gamma, honestly. Find a few friends that trust you, and start setting up runs. And make sure you save some money so you can buy the gold to make a profit off those boxes. I've got a million stored away so all I have to do is buy Gold, buy hammer, open box, buy Gold, buy hammer... Etc. And since you get 2 boxes a run, you just gotta wait for prices to dip a bit, and BAM! Massive profit. Play the Gold Market. It's fun some times. Also, I usually get about 400k a run, which usually disappears after buying skills, but if you leave your spirit alone, that money does stack quite fast, not to mention all the other shiny things you get. Tome Fragments, Mirage Celestones, Immaculate Shards, and Elixirs of all sizes. You can make a killing in there. Just gotta have connections.
Also? I'm a Herc Veno who also uses the Magmite. Just don't toss the guy. He has quite a bit of use. I use him all the time during FB's where there is a lot of firepower beside me. Especially the ones lower than me. He's an aggro hog. He has 4 attack skills maxed out at level 5. Nobody except a Tiger Barb is getting aggro off of that, so we can plow through FB's like nobody's business. Can't do that with a Herc. He loses aggro when Wizards sneeze. Also, having that many skills makes him my PvP buddy for those lovely ground fights. Like the Cube, etc. Bash, Flesh Ream, Sandblow, and Thunderbolt make him a jack of all trades. The last fight I had was against a higher level BM, who accused me of using a Genie on him because he died so fast. Magical skills that are multiplied times a pet's damage just tear through heavy Armor wearers, and the Physical skills cause a ton of pain as well. Just gotta remember to fire them while you're attacking.0 -
Perhaps a hercules isn't beyond my reach...but I'm still curious. Just how much worse is a shikou valorian than a magmite?
Comparing raw stats shows a clear difference...but how does that difference translate to damage reduction?0 -
Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »Perhaps a hercules isn't beyond my reach...but I'm still curious. Just how much worse is a shikou valorian than a magmite?
Comparing raw stats shows a clear difference...but how does that difference translate to damage reduction?
It'd be like wearing 80's armor and weapons in your 90's from the looks of things.
Not enough to get you killed on sight, but enough to make your day kinda suck.0 -
It's not that much worse. If you plan to get a herc or aren't upgrading your pets skills a lot, then you should be trading your pets in for the newer models. The stat difference at the same level is equal to something like (new pet tame level-old pet tame level)/10. So a Valorian vs a Crystaline is (60-17)/10 or 4.3 levels worth of stats. How that translates to actual ingame stats after a few levels can be seen on ecatomb.
Crystaline at 90: 2934 hp, 8792 physical (70%), 5861 magic (61%), 6.2 m/s
Volcanic at 90: 2931 hp, 8782 physical (70%), 5861 magic (61%), 6.3 m/s
Torgirn at 90: 2885 hp, 8642 physical (70%), 5741 magic (61%), 6.5 m/s
Valorian at 90: 2794 hp, 8362 physical (69%), 5575 magic (60%), 7.1 m/s
There's one other magmite too but I don't want to work out the level 90 stats right now, and it's level 29, while the Torgirn is 32 to start so it would be just a couple hp more than that (16 I think). By upgrading you get a faster pet which and free skills. Starting skills are:
Crystaline: Bash 2, Sandblow 1
Volcanic: Bash 1, Sandblow 1, Tough 1
Torgirn Puppet: Bash 2, Sandblow 1, Tough 1
Torgirn Brave: Bash 3, Sandblow 1, Tough 1
Valorian: Bash 5, Sandblow 1, Tough 2
Note, the brave and valorian have higher levels of bash than pets can normally have at those levels by skilling them. While aggro wise you should be able to compensate on the brave as long as you have levels of bash+sandblow equaling 4 (2/2, maxed for the level), or the valorian equaling 6 (3/3 or 4/2) their higher bash is rather convenient with autocast.
If you haven't dumped either 200k into a Volcanic or 300k into a Crystaline (vendor price, might be cheaper in the AH) by level 29 you should upgrade to a puppet. If by level 34 you haven't added Tough and a rank of Sandblow to your Crystaline you should upgrade, if you haven't added a rank of bash/sandblow to your volcanic you should upgrade, and so on. Those skill differences do matter for aggro and the stat difference is virtually meaningless.
Most people go with one of the first two on the logic that they can upgrade skills later, but can't upgrade stats. This is a mistake however, as at higher levels when you would want to consider this, leveling land pets is an utter joke and the hit you take to your skills until you do finally get around to upgrading will make a difference. Finally, upgrading pet skills costs spirit, why pay the spirit when you can get it for free and instead put that spirit towards your own skills which will help you kill even faster.
To answer your question of how much worse is a Valorian, since a Crystaline is the highest stats we'll call that 100%. Using hp/(1-resist) you come out with:
Crystaline - Physical 9780, Magic 7523
Volcanic - Physical 9770, Magic 7515
Puppet - Physical 9670, Magic 7438
Brave - Physical 9616, Magic 7397
Valorian - Physical 9012, Magic 6985
Or if you would rather see it in percentage form:
Crystaline - Physical 100%, Magic 100%
Volcanic - Physical 99.90%, Magic 99.89%
Puppet - Physical 98.88%, Magic 98.87%
Brave - Physical 98.32%, Magic 98.33%
Valorian - Physical 92.15%, Magic 92.85%
Also worth noting, is that hp differences remain static, those hp differences are the same at 18, 29, 34, 60, 70, or any other level, so the lower the level the greater the impact from them. The resist percents climb in lower levels and then remain the same for the majority, so that 70%, 69%, etc will still apply at 40, 50, 60, 90, or anything else though they may only be say 55% at 17 (the latest I've seen a pet take to reach it's max at something is 29).
You can either look at the Valorian being about 92.5% as good as the Crystaline, or the Crystaline being 108% better, they're both accurate but for that 8% you're paying a lot of coin and spirit that at 60, you still need as long as you're properly training your skills rather than just a couple of the nukes/regen skills and letting the rest slack. It would cost 1 million-1.3 million (depending on what you buy tough for) to skill a Crystaline up to a Valorians level. It will also take 42k spirit.0 -
Would you recommend to anyone to just use regular level armor instead of TT gear?
Would you recommend to people that got TT70 gear to not get TT99 gear when they can use it?
Plain Chest70 3*: Pdef 124, Elemental 1110
TT70: Pdef 136, Elemental 1225
Diff Between Chest 3* and TT: Pdef 12, Elemental 115
TT70 Chest:Pdef 136, Elemental 1225
TT99 Chest: Pdef 188, Elemental 1685
Difference: Pdef 52, Elemental 460
Diff Between CMag and Valorian: Pdef 768, Elemental 538
Difference between Level 70 3* and TT99 gold: Pdef 64, Elemental 575
Diff Between CMag and Valorian: Pdef 768, Elemental 538
Pets are an extension of the veno. If you are willing to sacrifice that much in a pet, why not just run around in NPC gear and keep a low level pet up to level and their skills up? As you can see, you will save way more by not upgrading your armor, than by not upgrading your pet, coins wise, while getting far better stats on the pet, which in turn makes it easier for a veno to tank.Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »However, the time you take leveling a pet later on is time you are not grinding, so there is also a cost associated with that.
What takes longer, especially at lower levels, grinding out thousands of coin and spirit for pet skills, or spending a couple hours in cube at later levels? The higher you get, the more attainable a herc is as well, so what you expect to be something you'll have to go without isn't necessarily the case. The whole logic behind using a lower pet is so that you have higher stats making it the best but unless you're actually putting your coin/spirit into pet skills early (early being the key part), it's not going to be the best.
Though, I did just work out the level 90 damage and the higher skills place the Brave at 2% less than a Crystaline and a Valorian at 6% less damage over time. This still only applies to bashes and FR though, debuffs get stronger from higher levels and defensive skills are still quite a bit different. Tough 2 for example gives an 8.75% boost over no tough when reused as it's up. So really you're just getting more aggro from the skills for slightly lesser damage overall, with tough compensating for a tanking difference. Without working everything out, this probably makes the Brave the best without buying skill tomes.Regarding those differences in HP, how much would someone pay to add 110 HP to the their character? (the difference between a CMag and a Puppet), or how much would they pay to add 768HP to their characters? (the difference between CMag and Valorian)
That's not 768 hp, I realize you're looking at it as effective hp but it's not the same. 9780 hp with 0 mitigation and 489 hp with 95% mitigation are quite different things yet would give the same score. The healing needs are drastically different.NPC Chest70 3*: Pdef 124, Elemental 1110
TT70: Pdef 136, Elemental 1225
Diff Between CMag and Valorian: Pdef 12, Elemental 115
TT70 Chest:Pdef 136, Elemental 1225
TT99 Chest: Pdef 188, Elemental 1685
Difference: Pdef 52, Elemental 460
Diff Between CMag and Valorian: Pdef 768, Elemental 538
Difference between Level 70 3* and TT99 gold: Pdef 64, Elemental 575
Diff Between CMag and Valorian: Pdef 768, Elemental 538
Stats aren't linear. I would recommend the 5k rep robe anyways. Go farm it in your mid 60's and you'll get all the spirit you need to catch up important skills like amplify that you won't get if you just do pure grinding. It will also give you the spare exp to level your genie up. Though that recommendation may change depending on how the Frost revamp goes.
Mitigation percents are what matter (and hp), not the raw stat. As I pointed out above, all magmites except for a Valorian have the same mitigation. Meaning those stat differences are effectively zero. The Valorian takes a hit on both of them, but again, looking at it more I wouldn't recommend a Valorian well... ever.0 -
Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: ».
Sorry about that, the browser deciced to eat my post after I tried to make a small change where I was calculating what you were mentioning... Than I ended up typing something else....
When you put into perspective all the better stats (except movement speed), and if you plan on keeping it, than you would be looking at how much would someone be paying to get +hp. +Pdef and +Mdef.
On my re-edited post (sorry for that once again), I compared just the Pdef and Mdef of the 2 golems compared to armor. Both regular 3* and TT70 and TT99 gold.
I am not disagreeing that any pet you do not plan on keeping, might as well upgrade to new model as you go until you trash it, the thing is, for pets you plan on keeping, which would make the most sense?Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
Right, but I'm not saying at all that you should upgrade a later one. At lower levels however, it's harder to afford upgrades and there's several other skills that need spirit.
When do most people upgrade their magmites? I upgraded mine which was a Crystaline at 53 by doing a ton of FB39 farming and took it to Bash/Sandblow/Tough/Threaten 3, plus the coin to do level 4 at 60. Had I known better back then, I would have been better off using a Brave or maybe a Puppet from 34 until I could upgrade the Crystaline.
I see a lot of people with magmites around tusk town, dreaming cloud, swamp, etc with Crystaline's that aren't upgraded. They're causing themselves to have a worse pet then, and the ones I've asked have always said either "I'll get a herc eventually" or "I'll upgrade when I can afford it". Oddly enough, they could have upgraded for free until they can afford skill books.0 -
Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »Right, but I'm not saying at all that you should upgrade a later one. At lower levels however, it's harder to afford upgrades and there's several other skills that need spirit.
When do most people upgrade their magmites? I upgraded mine which was a Crystaline at 53 by doing a ton of FB39 farming and took it to Bash/Sandblow/Tough/Threaten 3, plus the coin to do level 4 at 60. Had I known better back then, I would have been better off using a Brave or maybe a Puppet from 34 until I could upgrade the Crystaline.
I see a lot of people with magmites around tusk town, dreaming cloud, swamp, etc with Crystaline's that aren't upgraded. They're causing themselves to have a worse pet then, and the ones I've asked have always said either "I'll get a herc eventually" or "I'll upgrade when I can afford it". Oddly enough, they could have upgraded for free until they can afford skill books.
I only upgraded one skill at the time, as I start stealing aggro, only did the big upgrade later on.
The spirit cost is insignificant compared to the 200k for the scroll... at least in my exp. However, I never had a problem keeping my bash upgraded every 20 levels (that comes down to saving 10k per level), the sandblast you do not need to upgrade if you only using it to generate aggro once you get close to the next upgrade.
If someone goes beserk and upgrades all the skills, than yes, that will break them (or upgrade the wrong ones...), but if they only keep the main aggro skill upgraded, we are literaly talking about only having to save 10k coins per level to be able to afford the next upgrade. Once you get to be high level and money is less of an issue, than you can go wild on the remaining skills.Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
I will just note that putting Bash 1 on auto and manually triggering Sandblow 1 will generate more aggro than having Bash 5 on auto.Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »Note, the brave and valorian have higher levels of bash than pets can normally have at those levels by skilling them. While aggro wise you should be able to compensate on the brave as long as you have levels of bash+sandblow equaling 4 (2/2, maxed for the level), or the valorian equaling 6 (3/3 or 4/2) their higher bash is rather convenient with autocast.
What you say is true if you use both skills on both golems. But if you're really wanting to be cheap, the question that's going to come up is, "Is it worth upgrading to a valorian so I can just leave Bash 5 on auto? Or can I get away with using just Bash 1 (or 2) and manually triggering Sandblow?" In the 2 skills vs. 1 skill comparison, 2 skills at level 1 is better than 1 skill at level 5. The inconvenience is something each player will have to weigh on his/her own.
I disagree with Brael's overall conclusion that replacing pets instead of upgrading skills is the better route to go. I think it ignores factors like familiarity with the pet and its ability to tank, and you knowing your boundaries of pushing aggro. Upgrading a pet incurs a cost (time, money, and possibly exp if you die) of partially re-learning how best to work with your pet.IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »If someone goes beserk and upgrades all the skills, than yes, that will break them (or upgrade the wrong ones...), but if they only keep the main aggro skill upgraded, we are literaly talking about only having to save 10k coins per level to be able to afford the next upgrade. Once you get to be high level and money is less of an issue, than you can go wild on the remaining skills.
But he stated his conclusion as a recommendation (you should upgrade). He subsequently stated "the Valorian being about 92.5% as good as the Crystaline," which I think is a great way to do it. He makes a personal recommendation to upgrade, but shows the numbers so others can look at them and draw their own conclusions if they wish.
I don't think there's much point to arguing whether the cost to upgrade is or is not worthwhile. The answer is going to be different for each person. Personally I upgrade pet skills because I find it almost trivial to make money in this game. But I'm not gonna tell someone who has a hard time making money to upgrade their pet skills.0 -
I thought even some of the magmite proponents didn't recommend golems past level 39? The only ones I've seen using them around my level aren't even smart about it. Like using them on Firefoxes which do magic even while being meleed and ambush with magic frequently. I've cleared fb69 with some that had the thing die over and over until they brought out the Shadou Cub or something else with good mag def (at least they had an alternative and learned).
Familiarity is a crutch. It will hold you back, especially if you think pet dps alone helps you kill faster.Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
Just for note, starting from the lv60, 40k of soul isn't nothing >_> i upgraded my golem skills. Like they saied, there's no need in upgrade the attack skills, but the defensive one alread saved my baccon a lot of times (mine is lv3).0
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Honestly, upgrading pets is an All or Nothing thing. You don't half do it. Upgrading a pet halfway is a waste of time, money and spirit. You need those skill max for you level.
A lot of people claim that when you get a Hercules, you no longer need your Magmite, and maybe for them, it's true. I've got the same Generic Herc as a lot of other people, replacing Pounce for Level 5 Bash, and even though the thing never dies, I still prefer my Magmite. That thing will pull through for me in the clutch in a way the Herc can't touch. The Herc loses aggro WAYYYYY too much. And I know, take off the Blessing, etc. But why should we have to?
Design your pet for the future. 99% of Venos aren't going to have a Magmite being an Uber Tank endgame. They're going to have a Herc. So, what do you do with that Magmite, then? Whatever you want. It has the survivability to do almost anything you can think of. How about a Debuff Pet that can stand up to AoEs? Give him skills like Howl, or Pierce, if you're a Fox Veno. How about Shriek? Who doesn't like spell canceling? Don't like that idea? How about an aggro grabber? Give him Roar, and Tough, and have him save the party when the Barb goes down. How about a plain old DPS aggro hog? 4 Attack skills might be your bag. Like causing a bunch of various types of damage? Toss on a few more skills, like Flesh Ream, and Thunderbolt, for those annoying Wood mobs.
People that say the Magmite sucks probably aren't thinking out of the box. They're thinking of it in terms of a main tank, and we'd be kidding ourselves if we actually started trying to compare it to a Herc, or a Barb.0 -
Interesting, that you'd call sticking to the golem 'thinking out of the box', while most of it's criticasters are the ones doing just that.
You can debuff with other pets. At first glance their good defense make golems seem a good choice, but keeping the pet out of the area of effect and only sending it in for it's debuffing job will keep it's health up better.0 -
Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »It's not that much worse. If you plan to get a herc or aren't upgrading your pets skills a lot, then you should be trading your pets in for the newer models. The stat difference at the same level is equal to something like (new pet tame level-old pet tame level)/10. So a Valorian vs a Crystaline is (60-17)/10 or 4.3 levels worth of stats. How that translates to actual ingame stats after a few levels can be seen on ecatomb.
Crystaline at 90: 2934 hp, 8792 physical (70%), 5861 magic (61%), 6.2 m/s
Volcanic at 90: 2931 hp, 8782 physical (70%), 5861 magic (61%), 6.3 m/s
Torgirn at 90: 2885 hp, 8642 physical (70%), 5741 magic (61%), 6.5 m/s
Valorian at 90: 2794 hp, 8362 physical (69%), 5575 magic (60%), 7.1 m/s
There's one other magmite too but I don't want to work out the level 90 stats right now, and it's level 29, while the Torgirn is 32 to start so it would be just a couple hp more than that (16 I think). By upgrading you get a faster pet which and free skills. Starting skills are:
The lvl 29 one is the Puppet my first golem.I didn't know that C Mags came at lvl 17 or would of got one earlier.That is good info btw.Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.0 -
Well, don't like using facts and figures so:
At around level 35 my magmite had three bash-like skills on it, at 2,2 and 1. (Bash, sandblow, toxic mist)
It could regularly steal aggro from a 51 herc.
That same magmite is now 48, skills are 3,2,1 - trivially steals from a 59 herc - and can happily steal from the valorian.
It also happily survives against Hercule Poirot (the magic boss in fb39 whose surname I forget) even though that's magic damage. The valorian does too, but it's significantly dicier.
So yes - there is some difference, but it's not a huge difference.
The best thing to do, I think, would be for you to tame the new pet at the lowest level possible, stick both in your bag and compare one against the other.
So, short conclusion: Partly upgraded pets work. Not as well as fully upgraded ones, of course, but they do work.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »I will just note that putting Bash 1 on auto and manually triggering Sandblow 1 will generate more aggro than having Bash 5 on auto.
If this is the case, I'll have to rethink things further. The more I look at it, the more it looks like offensive skills such as Bash/FR really only mostly make up for the attack difference giving a damage difference to a lower pet despite those base skills. Debuffs don't work that way though, as they're enhancing players really, and self buffs appear to have better scaling. Tough vs no tough covers an 8% tanking difference, I suspect differences in boost for some pets could make up quite a bit of difference as well, despite the poor scaling on the skill.What you say is true if you use both skills on both golems. But if you're really wanting to be cheap, the question that's going to come up is, "Is it worth upgrading to a valorian so I can just leave Bash 5 on auto? Or can I get away with using just Bash 1 (or 2) and manually triggering Sandblow?" In the 2 skills vs. 1 skill comparison, 2 skills at level 1 is better than 1 skill at level 5. The inconvenience is something each player will have to weigh on his/her own.
If the thing with skill aggro is accurate and most of it is coming from just using the skill rather than the rank of the skill, the value of higher ranks is severely diminished.Upgrading a pet incurs a cost (time, money, and possibly exp if you die) of partially re-learning how best to work with your pet.
If you upgrade as you go, the pet is going to be very similar, there's certainly a time and cost factor in there as it costs money to add/remove the egg, and to feed it but it's a pretty minor cost.People that say the Magmite sucks probably aren't thinking out of the box. They're thinking of it in terms of a main tank, and we'd be kidding ourselves if we actually started trying to compare it to a Herc, or a Barb.
Magmites (Crystaline) make great debuffing pets. It requires reskilling them from how they start out though. Debuffs don't go well with things to put on your main tank though (aside from Threaten), so magmites are no good for that until you eventually move past them as tanks.0 -
Sounds like an expensive debuff pet. Why not go all out and get another Herc for Debuffing? The rare occasions that benefit from a debuff pet can often put you in a position where your squad pleads with you to use your Herc instead (as a back up tanker). - At least that's my experience. An Armored Bear would be cheaper, and more well rounded (Better Mag Def). Using applied skills (includes debuffs) generates aggro, so do we care about DPS generating more aggro when debuffing with a pet? The Bear is already ideal as a phys debuff lurer so you could have it fill 2 roles.
Does anyone Tame Pet lure with a Mag? -I wonder how that works with it's poor speed.Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
Because a herc is 30 mil, plus the price of 4 skills. A magmite is cheap.
An armored bear has worse stats than a shadou cub, and is horrible damage. A magmite has a good mix of survival and damage, that's why it makes a good choice. Bears are too far towards the survival side of things, Scorpions are too far towards the offensive side. When I think of a debuff pet, I think of something to use on bosses, namely howl, shriek, and threaten (pierce is useless in this situation). You're then left with one skill for attacks. And if you're curious, a herc has a 2.18% advantage in damage in this scenario, with bash on each.0 -
Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »Bears are too far towards the survival side of things, Scorpions are too far towards the offensive side. When I think of a debuff pet, I think of something to use on bosses, namely howl, shriek, and threaten (pierce is useless in this situation).
When I think of debuff pet, it's exactly that, a debuff pet--it's not DPS -per se-. I often use a debuff pet behind a barb. Howl, Pierce, Shriek, Threaten would be ideal skills for me. I am looking at my cub specifically for this purpose, though I'll probably keep Pounce for the attack speed increase rather than pierce as it's redundant with the barb debuff.
The reason I say this is that more and more (even being arcane) I prefer to drop into fox form and use debuffs on the boss constantly (Befuddling Mist is a favorite), which makes popping into human form to drop Ironwoods very annoying and mana-inefficient. I can pull out a debuff pet (currently my knowlin whose survivability sucks but eh I'm poor now and lazy, so the cub isn't leveled) and it can do an approximation of my magic debuff with Pierce, as well as channel interruption and magic debuffing. This is also helps if there is no cleric in the squad to drop a magic debuff.
The same is true when I'm helping to spam heal a tank pet and have no time to debuff. I can pull out a secondary pet to do an approximation (not a stellar one, but an approximation nonetheless) of my job.
In this case the cub would be even better than the armored bear as I believe it comes out at 90 with slightly more attack and slightly less defense than the armored bear (and is cuter too, bonus!). Its survivability would be pretty high, and it would serve its purpose.
Now as far as combining DPS with survivability, surely a magmite would rank very high on the list. Scorpion's HP is too low, bear's attack is too low. But I guess it depends on how many pet bag spots you're willing to eat up.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I've been wondering about that. I know the cleric debuffs don't stack with the pet debuffs. Does the barb debuff stack?Alphae - Lost City wrote: »though I'll probably keep Pounce for the attack speed increase rather than pierce as it's redundant with the barb debuff.
I dunno, the armored bear has a cute squat. b:chuckleIn this case the cub would be even better than the armored bear as I believe it comes out at 90 with slightly more attack and slightly less defense than the armored bear (and is cuter too, bonus!).0 -
Alphae - Lost City wrote: »When I think of debuff pet, it's exactly that, a debuff pet--it's not DPS -per se-. I often use a debuff pet behind a barb. Howl, Pierce, Shriek, Threaten would be ideal skills for me. I am looking at my cub specifically for this purpose, though I'll probably keep Pounce for the attack speed increase rather than pierce as it's redundant with the barb debuff.
The reason I say this is that more and more (even being arcane) I prefer to drop into fox form and use debuffs on the boss constantly (Befuddling Mist is a favorite), which makes popping into human form to drop Ironwoods very annoying and mana-inefficient. I can pull out a debuff pet (currently my knowlin whose survivability sucks but eh I'm poor now and lazy, so the cub isn't leveled) and it can do an approximation of my magic debuff with Pierce, as well as channel interruption and magic debuffing. This is also helps if there is no cleric in the squad to drop a magic debuff.
As you just pointed out though, a barb has a better debuff than Ironwood. Their normal debuff equals a sage IW. Then there's the chance of Myriad getting the physical reduction which equals a demon Ironwood. Unless you don't have a Barb, in which case you wouldn't really be wanting the debuff pet anyways, you wouldn't really have a need for pierce.
When it comes to dps though, while that's not the main role of a dps pet, the ability to debuff is pretty much equal for every pet, the only difference being starting skills. A pet that contributes more damage, is going to kill the target quicker, I could see a case being made for a scorpion but there's still a chance an occasional ae is going to get through, in which case you want something with solid hp and moderate to high damage. Both strengths of a magmite.The same is true when I'm helping to spam heal a tank pet and have no time to debuff. I can pull out a secondary pet to do an approximation (not a stellar one, but an approximation nonetheless) of my job.
What fights require constant spam from two veno's? I don't think I've ever seen one unless you're much lower than the mob.Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »I've been wondering about that. I know the cleric debuffs don't stack with the pet debuffs. Does the barb debuff stack?
The most recent of that effect takes precedence. If someone lands a demon/myriad physical debuff and someone then hits pierce 1, you've got a 20% debuff. If you Ironwood over a barbs debuff, you've got 30% not 40%, and so on. Even a lower Ironwood will overwrite a higher Ironwood.0 -
Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »...looking at it more I wouldn't recommend a Valorian well... ever.
I apologise for the late post...but why wouldn't you recommend a Valorian?
I've looked over the numbers myself, and it seems that a Torgrin Brave is just as good as a Crystaline Magmite, in terms of damage mitigation.
But the reason I ask about the Valorian, is its speed. I'm not a fan of slow pets, and the Valorian is the fastest of the magmites. Is it really more beneficial to sacrifice its speed for a mere 1% higher damage mitigation? or 6% higher damage?0 -
Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »I apologise for the late post...but why wouldn't you recommend a Valorian?
I've looked over the numbers myself, and it seems that a Torgrin Brave is just as good as a Crystaline Magmite, in terms of damage mitigation.
But the reason I ask about the Valorian, is its speed. I'm not a fan of slow pets, and the Valorian is the fastest of the magmites. Is it really more beneficial to sacrifice its speed for a mere 1% higher damage mitigation? or 6% higher damage?
Let me ask you this: do you want best tank magmite, best DD magmite, or fastest magmite???0
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