Magmites

tweakz

EvilDragon - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Let me ask you this: do you want best tank magmite, best DD magmite, or fastest magmite???

Magmites aren't the best tanks, or DDs, so may as well go with speed.

Alphae - Lost City

Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What fights require constant spam from two veno's? I don't think I've ever seen one unless you're much lower than the mob.

It happens in several cases, for instance 2 venos working together to solo a TT at lower-than-recommended level, if the main veno is lagging, if the main veno has issues, if the main veno gets stung by a bee... it doesn't happen a whole lot but it doesn't happen.

tweakz

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

It happens in several cases, for instance 2 venos working together to solo a TT at lower-than-recommended level, if the main veno is lagging, if the main veno has issues, if the main veno gets stung by a bee... it doesn't happen a whole lot but it doesn't happen.

I can't think of this being economically sound unless your doing a World Boss or something extreme. You're talking about splitting the goods on something that takes the same amount of time to kill soloing as duo-ing. I'd either level up, get some stat boosting stuff, or get a better tanker than a magmite instead.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Magmites aren't the best tanks, or DDs, so may as well go with speed.

However the combined tank+DD is hard to beat, when facing physical aoes. Comparing the slowest and fastest golems on speed is like comparing a slug and a snail..... They are both slow, speed should not even be an issue.

Alphae - Lost City

tweakz wrote: »

I can't think of this being economically sound unless your doing a World Boss or something extreme. You're talking about splitting the goods on something that takes the same amount of time to kill soloing as duo-ing. I'd either level up, get some stat boosting stuff, or get a better tanker than a magmite instead.

I'm talking about tanking with a herc.

It's not a common occurence.

EvilDragon - Dreamweaver

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

I'm talking about tanking with a herc.

It's not a common occurence.

P.S. youre on a magmite thread. All about the magmites here...no hercs allowed!! b:chuckle

Solandri - Heavens Tear

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

However the combined tank+DD is hard to beat, when facing physical aoes. Comparing the slowest and fastest golems on speed is like comparing a slug and a snail..... They are both slow, speed should not even be an issue.

Among non-herc land pets, magmites are #1 in pdef, #2 in DPS. tweakz just places an extraordinarily high emphasis on mdef in his definition of a tank.

tweakz

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Among non-herc land pets, magmites are #1 in pdef, #2 in DPS. tweakz just places an extraordinarily high emphasis on mdef in his definition of a tank.

Not really. I have yet to see anyone name a boss that a magmite can tank at a level lower than another common pet, while there are many bosses that are better tanked by other common pets. The game itself puts high importance on mdef. DPS is irrelevant to tanking, it'd be like me saying it sucks as a tank because it's one of the slowest pets there is, or it obstructs targeting. The difference in pDef on comparable pets with higher mdef is negligible which is why no one says: "my magmite can tank *** boss, but my shadou cub/Qingfu/etc can't". So I think the real issue is you and a few others place an extraordinarily high emphasis on pdef.

Aerilya - Sanctuary

Personally, after having used both a Cub and Magmite to lvl30, I much prefer the cub. True, the magmite dished out more damage pet hit, but the cub's increased speed and magic def was a huge plus for me. And the fact that it is small helped out a lot with targeting and stuff. The magmite got in the way so many times, I would click on a mob and not see that someone else was getting ready to attack the same one because the magmite was obstructing view.
I was able to tank a lvl44 Wicked Pirate with my lvl22 cub easy, while my lvl30 magmite failed to make the mark.

However, even after all the figures are added up, it really is personal preference and playing style which determines which pet to use. For myself, the cub fits my play style quite nicely.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Not really. I have yet to see anyone name a boss that a magmite can tank at a level lower than another common pet, while there are many bosses that are better tanked by other common pets.

Tweakz, I don't know what else to say. I've explained it a half dozen times, mathematically shown it twice. Just because you choose to ignore it or disbelieve it doesn't make it any less true. The magmite has the best pdef of any common pet, and close to the most hp. That makes it the best tank. Period.

Your argument contradicts the very definition of physical defense. If you take two pets with the same hp, then they will tank the same against physical damage when they have the same pdef. Since at a given level a magmite has the highest pdef of any common pet, it can physical tank anything at a lower level than any other common pet.

The only reason I haven't named any single bosses is because then you'd jump on it and say, "See, but that's the only boss you can think of where the magmite is better." That'd be a logical fallacy, where you're putting the burden of proof entirely upon me. It incorrectly sets up a default where the entire middle ground (bosses with mixed magical and physical attacks) belongs to you, and it's my job to prove which ones are done better by the magmite. So instead I'm explaining (over and over) why the magmite can tank stuff at a lower level than the other pets.

The game itself puts high importance on mdef.

Not at the early levels it doesn't. Which is why I'm so concerned about your vendetta against the magmite. You're going to steer a lot of new players away from possibly the best pet at the early levels, causing them a lot of wasted time and grief from unnecessary deaths. I totally agree with you at higher levels that there are better pet choices than the magmite. But at lower levels, nothing else comes close (except the two cash shop pets).

DPS is irrelevant to tanking, it'd be like me saying it sucks as a tank because it's one of the slowest pets there is, or it obstructs targeting.

I totally disagree. A tank isn't much of a tank if it isn't tanking. If it loses aggro, it may as well not be there. While pet skills do generate a good chunk of aggro, most of it still comes from DPS.* So a high DPS tank will hold aggro much better, making it a much better tank.

For the solo veno, you can get away with a low-damage pet like a cub if you trigger extra skills for aggro. But in groups, it's very easy for wizards and archers to pull aggro off of even a herc or a magmite. If you go with a lower DPS pet, you're slowing down the group's kill rate because your tank can't tank.

*When I ran my aggro tests, my magmite with Bash 2 would Bash for 1503 and make regular hits for 970. In an 8 sec span, that amounts to 1503+4*970 = 5383 damage. The skill itself generated aggro equivalent to only about 3500 damage per use. Even if I had had Bash 4 (the max for the level 66 pet in my test), it would've only done aggro equivalent to about 4800 damage, while actual damage would've gone up to 5675.

The difference in pDef on comparable pets with higher mdef is negligible which is why no one says: "my magmite can tank *** boss, but my shadou cub/Qingfu/etc can't".

You have an interesting definition of "negligible". Here are the relevant stats for the magmite and qingfu at 90 (I leave out the cub because it's a rare, I actually like it better than the magmite):

hp / atk / pdef / mdef
Magmite: 2934 / 3240 (0.6) / 8792 / 5861
Qingfu: 2986 / 2137 (0.8) / 7758 / 6565

hp: 1.8% in the qingfu's favor
atk (DPS): 13.7% in the magmite's favor

pdef and mdef are a bit deceptive. You have to translate them into damage transmitted (the yellow numbers that show up above your pet when it gets hit) before you can compare.

magmite pdef 8792 = 29.1% damage transmitted
qingfu pdef 7758 = 31.7% damage transmitted
9.1% in favor of the magmite

magmite mdef 5861 = 38.1% damage transmitted
qingfu mdef 6565 = 35.4% damage transmitted
7.4% in favor of the qingfu

Well would you look at that? The qingfu's advantage against magical attacks is smaller than the magmite's advantage against physical attacks. If the magmite's pdef advantage is "neglible" to you, then the qingfu's advantages (which are even smaller) must be even more negligible. Magmite wins.

And the reason nobody says "my magmite cank tank X boss but my other pet can't" is because the magmite shines at lower levels. Eventually the other pets get to a high enough level where they can tank those bosses as well as a magmite, so that statement as you've phrased it will almost never be true. The correct comparative statement is, "At level X, my magmite can tank Y but my other pets can't." e.g. At 17, my magmite could tank the darkbreed wolfkins, but no other pet I tried could.

tweakz

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Tweakz, I don't know what else to say. I've explained it a half dozen times, mathematically shown it twice.

Math was flawed, and I pointed that out. It also doesn't reflect real results.

MentalEdge - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

No. It doesn't have the dangerous spikes that a Magmite will from magic attacks so instead of spam healing you can more safely attack to compensate.

Are you kidding me?What kind of veno that does instances/bosses DOESN'T watch for when boss is going to do its magic attack?Most of them do it after every 4-5 melee hits and is easy to spot the warmup to one so you can still attack during that time with a mag,and your defense reduction off ironwood will last through the magic attack cast by the boss.



No, there are some of use that don't follow or parrot the poor advice commonly given here.

The only advice i see time after time thats worthless is yours.



High level veno should have no problem at all acquiring a Herc, and selling off worthless Magmite.

Magmite got me my herc,bloody idiot,while a shadou would have cost me way more coin to start with and got me through my instance farming a lot slower.

With magmites, you'd probably want to accentuate their atk with dmg skills. With the Cub, you'd want to accentuate with other skills like Howl, Tough (which also speed up killing). When it comes down to it: you can tank more with a Cub, cub is faster, and less visually obstructive. Comparing based on DPS doesn't make sense.

Bull,if you pay ATTENTION during your fights you can do the only spell you want,infact need! to use which is the ironwood using magmite as tank,the damage way outstrips a cub and simply being better at taking a bit more damage during a magic attack which is once every 4-5 hits while taking MORE damage during those melee hits whilst doing considerably less damage during the whole fight does not make shadou better!

And that is that.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

I'm gonna disagree with the cub. It's a nice lure pet, and it does well against magic mobs. But it doesn't really have the hitpoints for you to do anything but heal whilst tough is cycling, and it doesn't do enough damage to hold aggro.

Magmite, I found, gave me a lot more leeway. I *like* that safety margin. Whilst magic mobs hit it harder, it hits BACK harder, and most magic mobs have low pdef.

Except on the exploders. Just about any other pet is better there.

tweakz

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm gonna disagree with the cub. It's a nice lure pet, and it does well against magic mobs. But it doesn't really have the hitpoints for you to do anything but heal whilst tough is cycling, and it doesn't do enough damage to hold aggro.

Cub has 215 more hp than a cmag, and applied skills even if they don't do damage generate more aggro.

Magmite, I found, gave me a lot more leeway. I *like* that safety margin. Whilst magic mobs hit it harder, it hits BACK harder, and most magic mobs have low pdef.

Cub allows you to hit it back harder. It's a trade off.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

Cub allows you to hit it back harder. It's a trade off.

Tweakz, you are playing a completely different game to me, that's all I can say. One lagspike gets my cub killed. but my magmite will survive.

My magmite hits a lot harder than the cub, its skills cycle a lot faster - allowing me to cast earlier and more often.
If defends stupidly well, letting me heal less often, letting me cast more often.

The cub does three things better, for me.
It lures FAR better, being much faster and having pounce.
It can catch up with ****ing ranged mobs, who will otherwise kite the magmite till the cows come home.
It survives magic, which basically means the exploders in FB39. Little else does ENOUGH magic damage to matter.

tweakz

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Tweakz, you are playing a completely different game to me, that's all I can say. One lagspike gets my cub killed. but my magmite will survive.

Guess so. I don't get near enough lag spikes to be able to make such a statement, so I'll make one up myself:

When a hornet gets in my face and chases me from the keyboard, my Shadou Cub is able to survive, but my Magmite isn't.

*I don't even really have either of these pets.

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver

tweakz....I'm really beginning to doubt your credibility as a player. You believe every veno should have a herc and a nix, regardless of whether they want one or not. and you seem to think that making coin is so easy for everyone, that they can simply get these pets on a whim.

Well, if making coins is so trivial to you...you can just come on over to dreamweaver and buy me a herc. Because making coins is not a trivial matter to me...and I cannot afford a herc.

On topic, magmites are super slow.

I hate slow pets. b:cry

tweakz

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

tweakz....I'm really beginning to doubt your credibility as a player. You believe every veno should have a herc and a nix, regardless of whether they want one or not.

Should I likewise put words in your mouth?

and you seem to think that making coin is so easy for everyone, that they can simply get these pets on a whim.

If it's not easy, then the game is too difficult so you advance primarily by World Quest which is boring making the game boring and unrewarding so why play?

People who get bored tend to be boring. Sure, I just insulted some people, but I think most have a choice.

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

Should I likewise put words in your mouth?

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm putting words on a message board.

tweakz wrote: »

If it's not easy, then the game is too difficult so you advance primarily by World Quest which is boring making the game boring and unrewarding so why play?

I don't do World Quests.

Also, I only find making coins difficult. Leveling is easy.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Yes, I do have both a magmite and a cub, of comparable level.

And yes, there are situations where the cub is superior. But they are few and far between, compared to the times the magmite is better.

I now have a herc. It is almost all-around superior to the magmite. But, the magmite, even though it's several levels below, still hits harder. Which matters on ranged and casting mobs, and when I'm not being the tank. Apart from luring, I now can't think of anything I'd use the Shadau for.

It does make a great lurer though.

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Also, I only find making coins difficult. Leveling is easy.

A hundred times this. I may have almost no expenses, but I've got almost no income at all! Everything I can do for cash makes me lots of xp too. (Well, I could mine mats. Blegh.)

Brael - Dreamweaver

I get about 200k/hour grinding, after repair, teleport, and envoy costs. About 45 minutes a day of playing the market, and keeping a vendor up permanently brings in around 800k/day more. That's 1.8 mil a day so far. On top of that I bring in a little from rare tames, but those are really more for fun, between accelerate burn, relentless, and windrage not to mention the number of people that do them, I probably only break even there. I'm not sure how coin is hard to come by honestly, unless you have a spending habit of 5-10 million a day, and it's not the lack of repairs that gets us the coin seeing as how I use an insane amount of stamina my genie (about 200k/day).

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver

I've been mulling it over for a bit, and I made an interesting observation.

People only ever talk about Crystalline Magmites and Volcanic Magmites. But the Torgrin Puppet is statistically identical, (when looking at percent damage reduction) but is 0.4 m/s faster than a Crystalline. This makes it the second fastest magmite next to a Shikou Valorian.

So, am I correct in assuming that a Torgrin Puppet is in fact, superior to a Crystalline Magmite?

Also...I like that the Torgrin Brave is a different color, but I'm still not sure if I want to raise one over a more obvious Volcanic/Crystalline.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I've been mulling it over for a bit, and I made an interesting observation.

People only ever talk about Crystalline Magmites and Volcanic Magmites. But the Torgrin Puppet is statistically identical, (when looking at percent damage reduction) but is 0.4 m/s faster than a Crystalline. This makes it the second fastest magmite next to a Shikou Valorian.

So, am I correct in assuming that a Torgrin Puppet is in fact, superior to a Crystalline Magmite?

Also...I like that the Torgrin Brave is a different color, but I'm still not sure if I want to raise one over a more obvious Volcanic/Crystalline.

The Puppet is still an inferior model, if you plan on leveling it and using it at high levels.

If you just need something to get by, than Puppet would work, but if you actualy using it at high levels, than just get the best stats you can get on it. The skills are pretty irrelevant, since you will be, most likely, changing them anyway once you high level.

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The Puppet is still an inferior model, if you plan on leveling it and using it at high levels.

If you just need something to get by, than Puppet would work, but if you actualy using it at high levels, than just get the best stats you can get on it. The skills are pretty irrelevant, since you will be, most likely, changing them anyway once you high level.

Yes, but the stats are pretty irrelevant as well. Since both the Crystalline and Puppet have the same damage mitigation.

In layman's terms, anything a Crystalline Magmite can tank, a Torgrin Puppet can tank just as well...right?

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes, but the stats are pretty irrelevant as well. Since both the Crystalline and Puppet have the same damage mitigation.

In layman's terms, anything a Crystalline Magmite can tank, a Torgrin Puppet can tank just as well...right?

Not quite..... The puppet has a little less HP, therefore a hit that would leave the CMag with 5 HP would kill the Puppet. I know it is a tad extreme, but at this level this is what we are looking at. Also, you will not be tanking much, to be honest, mostly you will be dishing out damage, and the CMag has higher damage than the Puppet.

For grinding, they both would both tank equaly well, and the CMag would outdamage the Puppet, however, the extra second it would take the puppet to kill the mob, is not a huge deal on a 5 second fight.

Here is where the difference starts. For bosses with <?>, where the golem is not the tank, than the higher damage over a long period of time, makes the CMag better than the Puppet, added to higher HP and higher defenses (there is a difference even if statisticaly very small).

The reason to get higher tier models is to not have to upgrade skills, when people are broke at lower levels. Since, once you get to high level, you will be re-skilling the golem anyway, that "advantage" goes away, and the stats on the CMag are better, specialy Attack Power. Regarding the HP/Resistances, as long as the pet can survive the AOEs, it is irrelevant how high or low they are, since you will have to heal it anyway.

When in a party, and I am not tanking, I will use my scorpion for most of the bosses, the ones that have high damage physical AOEs, I will use my attack CMag. (things that will one-shot my scorpion)

tweakz

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Not quite..... The puppet has a little less HP, therefore a hit that would leave the CMag with 5 HP would kill the Puppet

For grinding, they both would both tank equaly well

<insert eye rolling emoticon here>

and the CMag would outdamage the Puppet, however, the extra second it would take the puppet to kill the mob, is not a huge deal on a 5 second fight.

5 Seconds? -lol We're talking hits per kill, and the difference in attack is rarely going to make a difference if ever.

Here is where the difference starts. For bosses with <?>, where the golem is not the tank, than the higher damage over a long period of time, makes the CMag better than the Puppet, added to higher HP and higher defenses (there is a difference even if statisticaly very small).

The magmites are slow and you're worried about it saving you a hit?

The reason to get higher tier models is to not have to upgrade skills, when people are broke at lower levels. Since, once you get to high level, you will be re-skilling the golem anyway, that "advantage" goes away, and the stats on the CMag are better, specialy Attack Power. Regarding the HP/Resistances, as long as the pet can survive the AOEs, it is irrelevant how high or low they are, since you will have to heal it anyway.

High level with coin to restat? - Get a Herc. <insert roll eyes emoticon here>

When in a party, and I am not tanking, I will use my scorpion for most of the bosses, the ones that have high damage physical AOEs, I will use my attack CMag. (things that will one-shot my scorpion)

The high damage phys ones tend to be short range and avoidable by ranged pets freeing you up from healing to do more DD, Debuff.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

The high damage phys ones tend to be short range and avoidable by ranged pets freeing you up from healing to do more DD, Debuff.

In order for a ranged pet to attack from range, you have to turn off all its attack skills. So you're not gonna be able to DD anywhere near your regular capacity. Your DDs are going to be limited to less than your pet's damage, which for a marksman works out to a nominal 1581 DPS at level 90. For the marksman to remain tanking, you cannot exceed 1581 DPS. So the maximum DPS of you and the pet cannot exceed 3161 DPS.

In contrast, a magmite with Bash 5 would do 2349 DPS. The aggro value of Bash would let you add another ~5300/8 = 662 DPS. So you would be limited to 3011 DPS. The combo of you plus magmite cannot exceed 5359 DPS. 1.7x your damage rate with the marksman (i.e. the marksman takes 1.7x longer to kill the boss).

If the magmite fires Bash 5 and Sandblow 1, it gets even more skewed. Magmite DPS would go to 2511 DPS. Aggro from Sandblow would add another ~3000/8 = 375 DPS. So you would be limited to 3508 DPS. The combo of you plus magmite cannot exceed 6019 DPS. 1.9x your damage rate with the marksman

I will admit there is a window where if all the stars align right, and the marksman tanks well enough where you can DD fully while the magmite would need to be spam healed, the marksman will do better. But in my experience, that window is pretty narrow. In most of these fights you're not spam healing the magmite, you can squeeze off a spell every heal or every other heal. Or if you are spam healing, a marksman would still need to be healed enough that you're not going to be able to DD that much (don't forget that the magmite's pdef results in 20% less damage taken than with the marksman). Not to mention in a group everyone in your party is gonna be bored to death if you limit their damage rate to less than the marksman's due to lack of pet aggro.

tweakz

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

In order for a ranged pet to attack from range, you have to turn off all its attack skills. So you're not gonna be able to DD anywhere near your regular capacity. Your DDs are going to be limited to less than your pet's damage, which for a marksman works out to a nominal 1581 DPS at level 90. For the marksman to remain tanking, you cannot exceed 1581 DPS. So the maximum DPS of you and the pet cannot exceed 3161 DPS.

In contrast, a magmite with Bash 5 would do 2349 DPS. The aggro value of Bash would let you add another ~5300/8 = 662 DPS. So you would be limited to 3011 DPS. The combo of you plus magmite cannot exceed 5359 DPS. 1.7x your damage rate with the marksman (i.e. the marksman takes 1.7x longer to kill the boss).

If the magmite fires Bash 5 and Sandblow 1, it gets even more skewed. Magmite DPS would go to 2511 DPS. Aggro from Sandblow would add another ~3000/8 = 375 DPS. So you would be limited to 3508 DPS. The combo of you plus magmite cannot exceed 6019 DPS. 1.9x your damage rate with the marksman

I will admit there is a window where if all the stars align right, and the marksman tanks well enough where you can DD fully while the magmite would need to be spam healed, the marksman will do better. But in my experience, that window is pretty narrow. In most of these fights you're not spam healing the magmite, you can squeeze off a spell every heal or every other heal. Or if you are spam healing, a marksman would still need to be healed enough that you're not going to be able to DD that much (don't forget that the magmite's pdef results in 20% less damage taken than with the marksman). Not to mention in a group everyone in your party is gonna be bored to death if you limit their damage rate to less than the marksman's due to lack of pet aggro.

All that work, and it ignores the point that I was addressing".

When in a party, and I am not tanking,

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

<insert eye rolling emoticon here>

5 Seconds? -lol We're talking hits per kill, and the difference in attack is rarely going to make a difference if ever.

The magmites are slow and you're worried about it saving you a hit?

High level with coin to restat? - Get a Herc. <insert roll eyes emoticon here>

The high damage phys ones tend to be short range and avoidable by ranged pets freeing you up from healing to do more DD, Debuff.

Rolling your eyes does not change the fact that if you looking at which one of the 2 is best, the 49 extra HP does make a difference.

The difference in attack makes a difference in long fights, as stated. If the difference is 60 dps between the two, on a 5 minute boss fight (not unresonable), the CMag will outdamage the Puppet by 18,000 attack points.
If you are getting one of the two, would you rather get the model that does 18,000 less damage over 5 minutes? This is using regular attacks only, once you add some skills, that difference goes up.

No clue what you mean by the comment CMags are slow... It could crawl there (which almost does), and it would still not change the fact that it has higher damage and slightly better resistances and HP. On a boss figth, it lasts long enough where even small DPS or defense differences are magnified.

One heal after the AOE is enough to bring CMag back to speed, so it is not a big deal, also, if you using a ranged pet, you are not debuffing, so you are penalizing your party and making it harder on the tank when you could just have pet use Howl and Threaten in coordination with the tank and keep his damage reduced the all fight, as well as increasing all the other caster's dps by using howl, the extra magic damage for everyone sure would off-set one less scarab from you while you heal after the aoe.

Brael - Dreamweaver

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So, am I correct in assuming that a Torgrin Puppet is in fact, superior to a Crystalline Magmite?

No. The attack difference is pretty large. When I worked it out before it came out that the difference in offensive skills was almost enough to compensate for the decreased attack. The Puppet has Bash 3 correct? And with that Bash 3, it's as good as a Crystaline with Bash 1 (actually it was 2% less if I remember right). So, taken up to higher levels where you're using it for dps, you could basically say that a Crystaline with level 3 attack skills equals a Puppet with level 5 skills, atleast in short fights, the Crystaline will always win until about 10 sec into a fight at 4 level 3 skills with a puppet having 4 level 5 skills. Past that however, a Crystaline needs higher. The advantage at all points comes at 2 level 5 and 2 level 4 skills vs a Puppets 4 level 5 skills.