Which is more effective? HPvsDef shards and seals
Comments
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I really don't see the point in all this math. My way of things is, make all your stats as high as you can. The higher the better. Do whatever it takes to make your low stats higher while keeping your current higher stats as-is or better.Main characters
Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
Sage Barbarian Malego - 910 -
Sure, but there's a point to wondering which stats should have priority over others, and by how much. Raising one stats comes at the expense of not raising another, so why not raise the one that helps the most?Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »I really don't see the point in all this math. My way of things is, make all your stats as high as you can. The higher the better. Do whatever it takes to make your low stats higher while keeping your current higher stats as-is or better.
I know some people like to just play by intuition and trial-and-error, and that's fine, but there's also nothing wrong with crunching a few numbers if you enjoy doing it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
I go for more balance myself. I'm boosting the stats that are low on me, like phy def while keeping my other stats nearly the same.Main characters
Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
Sage Barbarian Malego - 910 -
Nightfaii - Harshlands wrote: »
does the min hp in this pic uncludes also TT aoe boss physical attacks? or is it for simple grinding?0 -
After studying the calculations some more, I find there's an error in this analysis.
The problem, as Solandri notes, is in the concept of "%survivability increase". The error is that as defense increases, survivability increases at a constant rate, not by a percentage. The later calculations assume survivability is increased by a percentage of its current value each time you add more defense, but this is not what happens.
An example:
Level 75, 0 defense: 0% damage reduction, survivability is 1*HP.
Level 75, 300 defense: 9.09% damage reduction, survivability is 1.1*HP.
Level 75, 600 defense: 16.7% damage reduction, survivability is 1.2*HP.
Level 75, 900 defense: 23.08% damage reduction, survivability is 1.3*HP.
Every 300 defense, the survivability is increasing by a fixed amount (in this case, .1), not by a percentage.
Thus, increasing defense from 600 to 900 is a %survivability increase of only 8.33% (1.3 is 8.33% more than 1.2), and not 10%.
All is not lost, however, since the error can be corrected for and the calculations re-done. I'll be dusting off my Excel skills and seeing what I can figure out.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »After studying the calculations some more, I find there's an error in this analysis.
The problem, as Solandri notes, is in the concept of "%survivability increase". The error is that as defense increases, survivability increases at a constant rate, not by a percentage. The later calculations assume survivability is increased by a percentage of its current value each time you add more defense, but this is not what happens.
An example:
Level 75, 0 defense: 0% damage reduction, survivability is 1*HP.
Level 75, 300 defense: 9.09% damage reduction, survivability is 1.1*HP.
Level 75, 600 defense: 16.7% damage reduction, survivability is 1.2*HP.
Level 75, 900 defense: 23.08% damage reduction, survivability is 1.3*HP.
Every 300 defense, the survivability is increasing by a fixed amount (in this case, .1), not by a percentage.
Thus, increasing defense from 600 to 900 is a %survivability increase of only 8.33% (1.3 is 8.33% more than 1.2), and not 10%.
All is not lost, however, since the error can be corrected for and the calculations re-done. I'll be dusting off my Excel skills and seeing what I can figure out.
I've done some more work on this. It seems something was indeed wrong.
You will find that the magic numbers on the graph do have some significance though.
40*Level becomes a very important number. It shows how much HP you should have before adding defense shards, but those directions are incorrect. It should show how much more hp than defense you must have before using def shards. Interestingly, that number matches exactly to 40*L, which is the slope of that graph!
The problem I had was that I was falsely considering 0 defense all the way up the graph, but in reality that defense is effecting the HP change as well.
The graph is showing the right information for the motive, but the title has to be edited for accuracy.
Using the equations I did or that Solandri did (both are the same just his is fewer steps),
Survivability for +1 Def: HP/(1-(Def+1)/(Def+1+40*L))
Survivability for +1 HP: (HP+1)/(1-Def/(Def+40*L))
You will find that when the HP is more than 40*L + Def, def.shards are better.
When HP is less than 40*L + Def, hp.shards are better.
Try it, see what you think. :O
Edited First Post[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
here's another factor that i haven't heard mentioned yet- correct me if i'm wrong, but don't there exist special mobs in the game that do a fixed amount of damage, regardless of pdef or mdef (e.g. cube of fate balls in rooms 9, 30, 47)? if i'm correct about this, then for these special cases it benefits you to increase HP only, right?0
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I'm not sure, but that would mean defense is worthless in those cases.
If anybody is planning on PvP'ing, this thread is going to be very helpful.
Same with normal PvE grinding or instances unlike what you mentioned.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I was coming back here to post my findings, but I see you arrived at the exact same conclusion I did.Nightfaii - Harshlands wrote: »40*Level becomes a very important number. It shows how much HP you should have before adding defense shards, but those directions are incorrect. It should show how much more hp than defense you must have before using def shards. Interestingly, that number matches exactly to 40*L, which is the slope of that graph!
The best survivability happens when there is an optimum balance of HP and Defense, and assuming you've got an even choice of +1 HP or +1 Defense then that balance point is indeed to have 40*Level more HP than Defense.
Two notes:
Buffs that add a % increase don't change the optimum balance point. You should still have 40*Level more HP than Defense before buffs to maximize survivability.
Even slight differences in gems make a big difference. For example, at level 80, the 40*Level rule gives you 3200 as the balance point between more HP or more Defense. But if you are choosing between a +32 HP gem or +33 P.Def gem, then the true balance point is actually 2951.5[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
You're right about that, so the only way to be 100% accurate is to use these two formulas and use the shard corresponding to the largest value...
Survivability for +X Def: HP/(1-(Def+X)/(Def+X+40*L))
Survivability for +X HP: (HP+X)/(1-Def/(Def+40*L))
before putting on buffs with a % increase of HP or defense[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
b:shockedu sound like a math teacher or something....b:avoidand wtf how did u put taht together anyway? b:cold(i dont rly wana know(i think it was a retorical question :P))Clerics are like cops...they always seem to be around.....until you actually need one b:surrender - DeadRaven
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Btw peeps, didnt look much in to it. But do you have a chart or can write down
how much p/m.def gives dmg reduction.b:dirty0 -
I very appeciate the work done in this thread.
I read carefully and notice something that might have been missed.Nightfaii - Harshlands wrote: »Formulas:
1. Def/(1+40*L) = Damage reduction
The damage reduction statement in game is "Damage from level X ennemy attacks will be reduced by Y%". Where X is your current level and Y is the reduced % accoring to your formula which is correct.
What I noticed is that this statement implies the level of the ennemy as opposed to your current level.
I assume, that an ennemy with a different level would have a different damage reduction.
So the actual balance between hp/pDef is dependant on the expected ennemy level. Does it makes sens ?
If I am right, the balance would be different between TW ( level 90~101 ) and PvE bosses ( level 150 ).
Regards,
Vezz0 -
is this including or excluding the 30% extra HP from Beast King's Inspiration, in humanoid form?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Yeah, there was speculation about that when I first posted the formula on the barb board. It could be as simple as just putting mob level into the formula instead of character level. Or it could be more complicated. Should be relatively straightforward to test it with a veno pet dueling a character (veno pets always do the same damage). But AFAIK nobody has done it yet. Feel free to try it and report the results back to us. b:laughVezz - Heavens Tear wrote: »The damage reduction statement in game is "Damage from level X ennemy attacks will be reduced by Y%". Where X is your current level and Y is the reduced % accoring to your formula which is correct.
What I noticed is that this statement implies the level of the ennemy as opposed to your current level.
I assume, that an ennemy with a different level would have a different damage reduction.
It would be your hp and pdef in whatever configuration you're fighting in. i.e. If you normally fight with barb hp buffs and cleric pdef buffs, then your buffed stats are what you should plug into whatever formula.Rakthor - Lost City wrote: »is this including or excluding the 30% extra HP from Beast King's Inspiration, in humanoid form?0 -
idk if this has been mentioned, but, this doesnt applies to BMs or barbs, could we have 1 that does? XD
A barb or bm that haves 3k hp at lvl 80 is fail, i have 4k and still have problems with it (im one of the lowest hp bms i know except for some fist)
though, interesting for other classesb:victory0 -
I'm arcane pure mag veno. I like to keep my HP low. I already have good mag def, so I use Garnet Shards for p.def. Because I keep my HP low, I can refill my MP with HP pots much cheaper than using MP pots by using Soul Transfuse on Boss fights that don't allow time for Nature's Grace or Metabolic Boost. If I need extra vit for rare occasions, I can switch a couple ornaments.
Sorry for quoting a post from early in this thread but I don't really understand this argument anymore, although I still agree that defense>hp. While it was certainly true prior to genies, due to Tree of Protection it's significantly cheaper to use it for an 80% heal (maxed) vs using potions. I get about a 1 stamina for .75 coin, so Tree costs me 150 coin to use, with 2335 hp that means I get up to (depends on when I click it, overheal can erode the benefit) 1868 hp when I use tree. A condensed health potion that I pick up from something I kill will only heal 1270 HP over a longer time, and has a vendor resale value of 490. Due to tree the logic in having low HP in order to get a better hp potion:mana conversion rate no longer makes sense.0 -
Do the calculation based on what you have before you apply your buffs to figure out what your optimum should be.Rakthor - Lost City wrote: »is this including or excluding the 30% extra HP from Beast King's Inspiration, in humanoid form?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
Factoring in buffs you can get +120% physical resist, 60% elemental resist, and 30% more HP. This is on top of the veno and wiz physical defense buffs. In general defense is more easy to buff than HP (also easier to debuff) so that should place more importance on HP.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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No, it doesn't matter which one you can buff more because the effect is the same. Here's why:Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »In general defense is more easy to buff than HP (also easier to debuff) so that should place more importance on HP.
EHP = Effective HPs
HP = Base HPs
DEF = Defensive Multiplier (given by defense)
Your effective HPs are going to be the following:
EHP = HP * DEF
Now, let's say you buff your defense by +50%:
EHP = HP * (1.5 * DEF)
Mathematically, this is exactly the same as if you buffed your HPs by +50% instead:
EHP = (1.5 * HP) * DEF
In both cases you have the exact same formula:
EHP = 1.5 * HP * DEF
So in other words, figure out what your optimum HP to DEF ratio should be when you are unbuffed, then apply whatever buffs you can. Putting more into either HPs or DEF with the thinking that you'll get a better result by being able to buff one more than the other seems like common sense, but it's mathematically false.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
Vezz - Heavens Tear wrote: »I very appeciate the work done in this thread.
I read carefully and notice something that might have been missed.
The damage reduction statement in game is "Damage from level X ennemy attacks will be reduced by Y%". Where X is your current level and Y is the reduced % accoring to your formula which is correct.
What I noticed is that this statement implies the level of the ennemy as opposed to your current level.
I assume, that an ennemy with a different level would have a different damage reduction.
So the actual balance between hp/pDef is dependant on the expected ennemy level. Does it makes sens ?
If I am right, the balance would be different between TW ( level 90~101 ) and PvE bosses ( level 150 ).
Regards,
Vezz
That formula refers to your level.
I know this, because my guild mates have noticed a drop in defense reduction after getting a level, even though their defense remained the same. I leveled from 78 to 79 and one of my defense numbers was like 5773, and it went from 65% reduction at lvl 78 to 64% reduction at lvl 79. It doesnt mean you're weaker though, because like you said, the level of the enemies you fight with respect to you makes a difference too. That is a completely different formula.
With that in mind, the "magic number" on the chart from page 1 will be slightly smaller for fighting higher level mobs and slightly larger for fighting lower level mobs.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »So in other words, figure out what your optimum HP to DEF ratio should be when you are unbuffed, then apply whatever buffs you can. Putting more into either HPs or DEF with the thinking that you'll get a better result by being able to buff one more than the other seems like common sense, but it's mathematically false.
This statement has been puzzling me for quite a while and I would like to go against it.
You previously mentioned that the best balance is to have "40*Level more HP than Defense before buffs to maximize survivability".
I will describe a situation which disprove the above statement.
My example is a level 100 wizard using "stone barrier" ( +100% pDef ).
1.
This wizard at first as your balanced hp/pDef ratio, so 5000 hp and 1000 pDef. Since lvl*40 is the 4000 hp difference.
By using stone barrier his pDef becomes 2000.
Damage Reduction = pDef / ( pDef + 40 * level ) = 2000 / ( 2000 + 4000 ) = 33.33%
Survival = HP / ( 1 - Damage Reduction ) = 5000 / ( 1 - 0.3333 ) = 7500
2.
If the wizard had instead 4500 hp and 1500 pDef ( both adds up to 6000 ).
By using stone barrier his pDef becomes 3000.
Damage Reduction = pDef / ( pDef + 40 * level ) = 3000 / ( 3000 + 4000 ) = 42.86%
Survival = HP / ( 1 - Damage Reduction ) = 4500 / ( 1 - 0.4286 ) = 7875
3.
As shown by the 2nd example, a wizard with only 30*level more hp than pDef has a 5% better survival.0 -
Meh, the OP confused the **** out of me and i admit it..
Lvl 74 Cleric Arcane with aprox. 1600 phys def buffed and 3100 hp unbuffed
Someone do math plz QQ Im currently sharding my: hat, top, legs, boots, wrists with HP0 -
Bowlinbob - Lost City wrote: »Meh, the OP confused the **** out of me and i admit it..
Lvl 74 Cleric Arcane with aprox. 1600 phys def buffed and 3100 hp unbuffed
Someone do math plz QQ Im currently sharding my: hat, top, legs, boots, wrists with HP
The most important question is:
What colour would you like your armor to glow?
Do you like sparkling armor?
Once you decide which one is your favourite color, shard your armor with those shards. If you want sparkling, than you have to mix and match the shards (in this case I would recommend HP and Pdef shards).
If you are going to be killing stuff, at least do it in style
Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »The most important question is:
What colour would you like your armor to glow?
Do you like sparkling armor?
Once you decide which one is your favourite color, shard your armor with those shards. If you want sparkling, than you have to mix and match the shards (in this case I would recommend HP and Pdef shards).
If you are going to be killing stuff, at least do it in style
thats easy
im shooting for the citrine lightning effect in my 9x gear ^^ 0 -
Bowlinbob - Lost City wrote: »thats easy im shooting for the citrine lightning effect in my 9x gear ^^
See, no point getting all worked up with all the math..... b:victoryToo often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
the thing that amazes me, and is so rediculously stupid that i stopped reading this thread altogether at page 5...
people throwing around all this crazy brainiac calculations and disregarding the very essential and basic point of what determines survivability, while trying to come up with crazy **** names and ways of expressing it...
its how much damage you can take before you die. plain and simple.
incoming damage reduced by however much percent reduction it shows in your character screen for % reduction is what actually makes it to your HP pool. stop tryin to show the world you're brain freaks and just do it by the basics lol
if you have 2k hp and 40% phys dmg reduction (barring any of the "reduce physical damage taken x% bonus on equipments) it would take about 3334 physical damage inflicted to kill you. there is no fancy "% rate of survival" ****, it takes 3334 phys dmg to kill this character (given there's no heals administered).
and for the same 2k HP with 60% mdmg redux, it would take 5000 incoming magic damage to kill off the 2k HP.
that is survivability measured. not all the fancy b.s. yall keep trying to call it lmao
continue in this way and there can be found an actual better thing to add to be able to survive better. (wether pdef or hp for arcane wearers, or mdef or hp for hvy wearers) disregard heals and recovery because if you add in a cleric standing there healing, as long as you dont get one shot, defense will always be greater than HP. but for true raw survivablility it boils down to how much damage you can take before dying (and defense and hp both play a part in that)i'm pro all classes, and against none in particular..
but the age old QQ about venos is just that. OLD.
QQ'd about a nix lately? check out this thread n tell me who's "OP" lol..
(copy and paste this to address bar):
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1021720 -
you bumped a months old thread just to complain...? seriously, slap yourself[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
advice to fledgling archers:
Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.0 -
Nightfaii - Harshlands wrote: »There are hundreds of threads covering the topic of HP vs. Def, but the conclusions are always controversial.
You still see some players equipped with HP shards and others with defense, but who really has it figured out?
I did this work for my own benefit, but I will share what I found. It surprised me. Also, please help me if I'm wrong.
Ok, so this page is different from before. Thank you to everybody who helped find my errors.
1. Find your level and the corresponding value on the graph.
2. Take how much defense you have and add that value to it. (This is how much HP you should get)
3. If you have less HP than that number, it is better to add HP shards.
4. If you have more HP than that number, it is better to add defense shards. (Repeat process for m.def and p.def seperately)
More about the derivations of this graph and the editing up to this date:
Seems my work from before had an error in the defense calculations.
1. Adding defense gives exponentially less % reduction in damage the higher defense is
2. Adding defense % gives exponentially more survivability increase the higher defense is
(1. and 2. give a linear change for each point added. The slope is 1/(40*Level).)
1 and 2 were considered in my previous calculations but not #3.
3. The defense you currently have affects the effective increase of the HP (and visa-versa)
Formulas:
1. Def/(1+40*L) = Damage reduction
2. 1/(1-%DR) = Survivability multiplier
3. (These are still correct, the rest was edited with better reasoning)
(A) Survivability for +1 Def: HP/(1-(Def+1)/(Def+1+40*L))
(B) Survivability for +1 HP: (HP+1)/(1-Def/(Def+40*L))
The chart shows how much more Survivability your getting from +1 HP on a level 50 character with the specific defense amounts. (eq.A minus eq.B)
Consider the bars above the line mean add HP, and bars below the line mean add Def.
The number value for level 50 from the first graph is 2000.
2000+0 defense = 2000 HP minimum before def shards become more effective
2000+1000 defense = 3000 HP minimum before def shards become more effective
2000+3000 defense = 5000 HP minimum before def shards become more effective
Thank you WarrenWolfy, your explanations are also helpful...
If you don't understand how this works, picture your survivability as the area of a rectangle, and the height and width as the HP and defense you are allowed respectively.
If you have a very stretched rectangle with very little HP and a ton of defense, the area of the rectangle is smaller; and your character would die easy. The best ratio of HP to defense is when the area is the largest (a perfect square), and that is when both are equal.
That is similar to how this works on your character. These charts show where that optimum point is for this game.
Refer to page 7 for recent changes and opinions on this edited thread Click Here
b:faint b:shocked0
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