Which is more effective? HPvsDef shards and seals

DarkSniper - Lost City

But of course adding defense WILL ONLY PREVENT ONE TYPE OF DAMAGE (physical or one of the elements depending one which defense your using), and keep in mind that HP is effective for ALL TYPES OF DAMAGE.

And that's why I use HP.

That and my max hp is only like 2300

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Also, the lower your phy def is to start with, the more benificial it would be to add phy def instead of hp since you get a bigger boost to def % with less def added on if you have very low phy def.

I think i agree more with how zoe sums it up.
The choice of HP or Pdef depends on class and how much of what you have to start out with. Depending on how much Pdef you have and dont have, it differs how much of your HP is carved off.
I like solandris equation >.>
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=1536391&postcount=30

I'd fly over and kick a barb in the nu.ts if he had only 5k Pdef and 11kHP and decided to use HP shards (yes i know its impossible but just an extreme example lol)

Nightfaii - Harshlands

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

BTW, the formula to go from def score to DR is:

% damage reduction = 100*def / (def + 40*lvl)

You'll probably find that the minor errors in your fit are due to rounding off % DR to an integer in the character info display.

That seems right. In that case, I can find the exact fit for the relationship between defense and survivability. If the equation is linear, then my theory is correct. If it is non-linear, my results will be off.


y = Defense
x = % Reduction
z = % Survivability
L = level (in my case I used 77)

y/(y+40*L) = x
x/(1-x) = z

So in this graph I used L=77:

z = (y/y+3080)/(1-(y/(y+3080)))



This graph is very significant, because it shows the change in the survivability as you increase defense. The derivative of this equation can be found directly. The slope becomes .0324, which is very close to my fit for the measured data .0319. (the .0324 is an exact fit for real stats)

so for .0319, the HP and defense are equally effective at 1/.0319% or 3135 HP.
for .0324 (the real value), the HP and defense are equally effective at 1/.0324% or 3086 HP.

This is for level 77. For level 90, I punched in the numbers and the slope becomes .0278.
That means at level 90, they are equally effective at 1/.0278% or 3597 HP. The higher level you are, HP shards will be more effective for a longer time.




So here is the equation to figure out how much HP you should have before using defense shards:

x = Your Defense
L = Your level

Function x/(x+40*L)/(1-(x/(x+40*L)))*100
f'x = 5/(2*L)
100/f'x = HP number at cross-over

Put your level into a calculator as shown to get the amount of HP you should have before using defense shards.


200*L/5 (really is that simple)


Because its a function of your level, I added a new chart to the top of the first post.

Nelae - Heavens Tear

Did you ever look at the economical part of this?
And dont forget builds.
Sorry thats unachievable, the fact is that arcane has low p.def to start with and getting 1k or more p.def will cost you allot.
May be if we all went full vit then add p.def but frankly i would not consider it.

For the 99-100% survivability talk, please dont go there, never gonna happen.
An example 1% m.def for more makes no difference from 71%-72% dmg reduction is not worth mentioning, for which i need to add ~1k m.def.
Turn that number in shards, and be amazed. At that point HP>Def.

To be honest how much p.def you think you can build up?
If i took every thing from my bank and put in to p.def i would have ~1.3k p.def
and loose 400hp thus making my hp 2.2k. I am sure i would die vs aoe's in TT1-3 +

I am not saying you are not right, cause actually you are, but you are not considering all the facts.

but 5+ on good work

Death - Harshlands

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You are forgetting that HA gives more m.def then Arcane gives p.def so the difference is irrelevant to some point.

Actually you narrowed down my question a bit more than I was asking.... for instance, assuming I have the full allocation of 20 sockets on my gear using G6 shards...

For any of the specific armor types (most notably heavy since I'm starting to save up for my 90 gear on my BM), is +460 mdef/pdef going to be more of a benefit than +660 HP?

For PvE the answer would probably be yes, however I'm not sure if that would be better for a PvP build, as the HP increase would benefit you immediately, while the mdef/pdef would be more substantial in the long run.

You can weigh them on a 1:1 point ratio all you want, but shards of specific grades do not balance out this way.

Seeing how this post is generally more suitable for people 9x+, G6 shards are a bit limiting and the point gap between def v. hp with G7-G9 shards becomes wider, my original question still remains: Shard per shard not point per point, which is actually more effective?

(edit) Yes, I'm too lazy to do the math to calculate which shards are actually more beneficial in general.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Did you ever look at the economical part of this?
And dont forget builds.
Sorry thats unachievable, the fact is that arcane has low p.def to start with and getting 1k or more p.def will cost you allot.
May be if we all went full vit then add p.def but frankly i would not consider it.

For the 99-100% survivability talk, please dont go there, never gonna happen.
An example 1% m.def for more makes no difference from 71%-72% dmg reduction is not worth mentioning, for which i need to add ~1k m.def.
Turn that number in shards, and be amazed. At that point HP>Def.

To be honest how much p.def you think you can build up?
If i took every thing from my bank and put in to p.def i would have ~1.3k p.def
and loose 400hp thus making my hp 2.2k. I am sure i would die vs aoe's in TT1-3 +

I am not saying you are not right, cause actually you are, but you are not considering all the facts.

but 5+ on good work

That is not quite true... My arcane veno has 4k pdef, 5.2 Mdef and 2900 vita, and it costed me very little to get that, around 300k I think. I have 50 vita, 330 magic, 49 str and 22 dex (including bonuses from gear)

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary

Brilliant work! I tried (and failed) to do the same computations, but I now realize my results were wrong due to a faulty formula for converting changes in pdef into matching changes in damage reduction.

It's interesting that adding pdef gives a linear increase in survivability, while adding HP gives diminishing returns. This is counter-intuitive (and I'm sure you'll never be able to convince at least some people b:victory), but your math appears to be correct.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

Brilliant work! I tried (and failed) to do the same computations, but I now realize my results were wrong due to a faulty formula for converting changes in pdef into matching changes in damage reduction.

It's interesting that adding pdef gives a linear increase in survivability, while adding HP gives diminishing returns. This is counter-intuitive (and I'm sure you'll never be able to convince at least some people b:victory), but your math appears to be correct.

It is easier to understand if you use really big numbers for the damage.
If your base HP is 4000, and you add 400 HP and get hit by a 4000 damage hit, you end up with 400 HP.
If your base HP is 4000, and you add 10% def, and get hit by a 4000 damage hit you end up with 400 HP as well.

If you have 4000 HP and you add 400HP and you get hit by 4400 hit, you end up with zero HP = dead (4000 + 400 - 4400 = 0)
If you have 4000 HP and you add 10% def and you get hit by a 4400 hit you end up with 40 HP (4000 - (4400 - 440) = 40)

NeBaVi - Dreamweaver

so far i have been looking for gears with +p.def that i shard with HP gems, if can't find with +p.def then i try find with +hp/vit and shard them with p.def gems, so far works good for me

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Nightfaii - Harshlands wrote: »

DAMAGE REDUCTION DOES NOT EQUAL SURVIVABILITY INCREASE. The equation for this is x/(1-x)+1 for example, if you have 50% damage reduction then .5/(1-.5)+1 = 200% (you will survive twice as long). 25% reduction is .25/(1-.25)+1 = 133% (you will survive 1.33 times as long).

This simplifies.

x/(1-x) + 1
= x/(1-x) + (1-x)/(1-x)
= (x+1-x) / (1-x)
= 1 / (1-x)

The amount of current defense doesnt matter, but when HP is greater than 3.1k, adding more HP becomes less affective than adding more defense.

Problem. You've assumed a 1-to-1 tradeoff for hp and pdef. That's not how shards work though. A G6 shard gives +33 pdef or +32 hp. A G9 shard gives +66 pdef, or +62 hp. There doesn't seem to be a fixed ratio of the two, so there's a different trade-off point for each level shard.

mdef shards give even less (G6 is +26 mdef, G9 is +53 mdef), so you'd have to generate completely new graphs for someone trying to decide if s/he should use mdef shards or hp shards.

http://pwi.perfectworld.com/guide/imbue

I also get the feeling that the whole thing is a bit... unintuitive. You're using % increase to survival time as a baseline. Intuitively I think the raw increase in survival time (not % increas) makes more sense. It doesn't change the intersection point, so it shouldn't change your analysis for tradeoff point between hp and pdef. But using % increase makes it a bit difficult to grok the whole thing.

e.g. If your survival time goes from 2 sec to 4 sec, that's a 100% improvement. Likewise if your survival time goes from 15 sec to 30 sec, it's also a 100% improvement. But in terms of playing the game, the latter is a much bigger benefit since living 15 extra seconds is a whole lot more useful than living an extra 2 seconds.

Like I said, it shouldn't affect the intersection of the two lines. All it does is change the y-axis from dH/dx to x*dH/dx, where x is hp. So the improvement due to +hp is linear (adding +100 hp gives the same benefit regardless of how much hp you already had). The improvement due to +pdef goes up with your hp (the more hp you have, the more you benefit from an improvement in pdef). Hmm, now that I write it out, I'm not sure if it's possible to do it this way since you've done a pdef:hp equivalency...

Walterthewf - Harshlands

Alright, I get that whole idea.


Keep in mind though,

HP is effective versus Mdmg and Pdmg.



When comparing 1 vs 1, I guess it is only normal that Pdef is better vs pdmg...but it has no effect versus Mdmg whereas HP will always have a benefit no matter the damage type....which should equalize it back to normal....possibly.


good equations tho, helped me get it kinda


but percentage changes in survivability are subjective and I still don't trust it.

refer @ guy ontop of me last part of post

Nightfaii - Harshlands

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If you have 4000 HP and you add 400HP and you get hit by 4400 hit, you end up with zero HP = dead (4000 + 400 - 4400 = 0)
If you have 4000 HP and you add 10% def and you get hit by a 4400 hit you end up with 40 HP (4000 - (4400 - 440) = 40)

That is why I used the equation x/(1-x)+1. 10%/(1-10%)+1 = 111% survivability and essentially giving you 4440 HP. Subtract 4400 and you get 40.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This simplifies.

x/(1-x) + 1
= x/(1-x) + (1-x)/(1-x)
= (x+1-x) / (1-x)
= 1 / (1-x)

that is easier and works as well.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Problem. You've assumed a 1-to-1 tradeoff for hp and pdef. That's not how shards work though. A G6 shard gives +33 pdef or +32 hp. A G9 shard gives +66 pdef, or +62 hp. There doesn't seem to be a fixed ratio of the two, so there's a different trade-off point for each level shard.

mdef shards give even less (G6 is +26 mdef, G9 is +53 mdef), so you'd have to generate completely new graphs for someone trying to decide if s/he should use mdef shards or hp shards.

http://pwi.perfectworld.com/guide/imbue

I also get the feeling that the whole thing is a bit... unintuitive. You're using % increase to survival time as a baseline. Intuitively I think the raw increase in survival time (not % increas) makes more sense. It doesn't change the intersection point, so it shouldn't change your analysis for tradeoff point between hp and pdef. But using % increase makes it a bit difficult to grok the whole thing.

e.g. If your survival time goes from 2 sec to 4 sec, that's a 100% improvement. Likewise if your survival time goes from 15 sec to 30 sec, it's also a 100% improvement. But in terms of playing the game, the latter is a much bigger benefit since living 15 extra seconds is a whole lot more useful than living an extra 2 seconds.

Like I said, it shouldn't affect the intersection of the two lines. All it does is change the y-axis from dH/dx to x*dH/dx, where x is hp. So the improvement due to +hp is linear (adding +100 hp gives the same benefit regardless of how much hp you already had). The improvement due to +pdef goes up with your hp (the more hp you have, the more you benefit from an improvement in pdef). Hmm, now that I write it out, I'm not sure if it's possible to do it this way since you've done a pdef:hp equivalency...

The actual amount on the shards is something to consider, but the idea was to show the slope by adding 1 point at that amount. (So adding 1 point to HP instantly changes the next point's effectiveness)

The percentages are just 100 times the actual increase, but if I was to give the actual number increase it would be 4 magnitudes below 0 and even harder to compare and understand.

Yeah, the % of survivability increase is the only way I could think of to show how effective one is over the other. It doesn't change any of the numbers though like you said.

Bebisita - Dreamweaver

my whole basis of choosing defense over HP is that a fiery glow looks way cooler than some icky purple glow. b:shutup

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

Bebisita - Dreamweaver wrote: »

my whole basis of choosing defense over HP is that a fiery glow looks way cooler than some icky purple glow. b:shutup

The reason why I have pdef and hp shards on all my armor... I like the sparkles.... Heck I even chose my genie so it would match my outfits.

Qwin - Sanctuary

Thank you thank you thank you thank you did I mention thank you.

Nelae - Heavens Tear

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That is not quite true... My arcane veno has 4k pdef, 5.2 Mdef and 2900 vita, and it costed me very little to get that, around 300k I think. I have 50 vita, 330 magic, 49 str and 22 dex (including bonuses from gear)

If you can get this stats cheap, bravo.

For me shard cost with 60base vit to get 2.6k is ~over1.2mil
Add cheap items with HP bonus and you will have my HP base of 2.664k
No room for p.def shards what so ever, and if i was to replace them with some p.def to get 2% at best lol soulbanisher would have me for lunch.

If i am right you can have max 24 sockets in your armor. On average ppl have 10-12.
OK now lets say we got rich just to buy good shards.

And lest say you put perfect garnet shards +66 p.def.
You get 660-792 p.def.

Now perfect citrine shard +62HP
620-744HP

Now what would you choose.

*Note keep it real

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Nightfaii - Harshlands wrote: »

The actual amount on the shards is something to consider, but the idea was to show the slope by adding 1 point at that amount. (So adding 1 point to HP instantly changes the next point's effectiveness)

That's the MAIN thing to consider, IMO.

Everyone is getting to lost in their calculations, but you're all overlooking the fact you can't just easily add 10% to def or hp through shards when each grade has a specific quantity that it already provides.

So far this is just an e-peen battle over who can come up with a better formula than which grade shards offer similar/superior benefit in relation to each other, which the title of this thread would imply.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And lest say you put perfect garnet shards +66 p.def.
You get 660-792 p.def.

Now perfect citrine shard +62HP
620-744HP

H = your initial hp (i.e. your hp before sharding)
• P = your initial pdef (i.e. your pdef before sharding)
• h = increase in hp from shards
• p = increase in pdef from shards

DR (damage reduction) = P/(P+40*lvl)

EHP (equivalent HP) = H / (1-DR)
= H / [1 - P/(P+40*lvl)]
= H / [(P+40*lvl-P)/(P+40*lvl)]
= H / [40*lvl/(P+40*lvl)]
= H * (P+40*lvl) / (40*lvl)
(EHP would be how many HP someone with zero pdef would need to perform as well.)

Figure out the +hp option by setting H = H+h:

EHP(+h) = (H+h) * (P+40*lvl) / (40*lvl)

Figure out the +pdef option by setting P = P+p

EHP(+p) = H * (P+p+40*lvl) / (40*lvl)

To find the trade-off point, just set the two EHP equal to each other. When you do this, the (40*lvl) term on the bottom cancels out so you're left with:

EHP(+h) = EHP(+p)
(H+h)*(P+40*lvl) = H*(P+p+40*lvl)
H*(P+40*lvl) + h*(P+40*lvl) = H*(P+40*lvl) + H*p
h*(P+40*lvl) = H*p
H = (P+40*lvl)*h/p

Now just plug in your numbers. e.g.

lvl = 73
P = 1500 (total guess here)
p = 660
h = 620

H = (1500 + 40*73) * 620/660 = 4152

+660 pdef becomes better than +620 hp if you have more than 4152 hp.

Interesting that calculating it based on equivalent hp (same thing as survival time) comes up with a different equivalency than % increase to survivability. Like I said, I think there's something unintuitive about % increase to survivability which is throwing everything for a loop. Something tells me the point where the % increase in survivability of the two shard options is equal, is different from the point where the survivability of the two shard options is equal. Anyway, it's late and I'm tired. I'll take a closer look at it over the weekend.

Also note that all this assumes you don't get healed. In any situation where you're getting healed, the advantage shifts dramatically to +pdef sharding.

Qwentomec - Heavens Tear

Man im so confused...

Heres my stats (LVL 75 BM):
HP = 3953
Mag Def = 1810 (Thats the lowest out of all of them..some are boosted by bonuses on armor)
Phys Def = 5414 (7860 with my 30 min phys def buff,)

The calculations being thrown around in this thread make my head hurt, so I really can't understand them at all.
Is anyone kind enough to tell me whether I should go for HP shards or MDef shards?
(Note I currently have no shards on, except for phys attack ones on my weapon, and I use an elemental necky and an elemental belt)

Nightfaii - Harshlands

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

That's the MAIN thing to consider, IMO.

Everyone is getting to lost in their calculations, but you're all overlooking the fact you can't just easily add 10% to def or hp through shards when each grade has a specific quantity that it already provides.

You seem to think that its going to make a huge difference, but here it is anyway:

S = Shard amount increase
H = HP
L = Level

Find out the survivability increase from adding an HP shard.
S/H

Find out the survivability increase from adding a defense shard.
5/(200*L)*S
(For classes using Heavy Armor considering HP for magic survival - divide this result by 2 - then split your shards into magic def and physical def)

Whichever shard equation gave the larger value, is the one you should add.

Nightfaii - Harshlands

Qwentomec - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Man im so confused...

Heres my stats (LVL 75 BM):
HP = 3953
Mag Def = 1810 (Thats the lowest out of all of them..some are boosted by bonuses on armor)
Phys Def = 5414 (7860 with my 30 min phys def buff,)

The calculations being thrown around in this thread make my head hurt, so I really can't understand them at all.
Is anyone kind enough to tell me whether I should go for HP shards or MDef shards?
(Note I currently have no shards on, except for phys attack ones on my weapon, and I use an elemental necky and an elemental belt)

All you need is your level and your HP.

Adding 1 HP point will give you an increase of .00253
Adding 1 Defense point will give you an increase of .00333

Because I assume you're wearing heavy armor and want to tank magic, assume the defense increase is half .00166
(because it would take two shards to cover both magic and physical)

Defense shards are already more efficient for you, but HP is going to benefit for magic as well. Once you reach 6000 HP, defense shards become twice as effective for your level. At that point you might want to split up additional shards into magic def and physical def.

The answer is use HP shards, but do not go past 6k with them.
(If you plan to + your armor later on, take that into consideration now. That will give a lot more hp)

Nelae - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

+660 pdef becomes better than +620 hp if you have more than 4152 hp.

Sorry for quoting just this part.

When i crunch my total coin balance in game and what i could buy to make me survive better, Duo my build HP > p.def for now.
Until i can refine and get good HP stats from items p.def does not help as much.
But when like shown i get HP from that, then yes p.def > HP.
But to what point.
I think that for a cleric that does not follow full vit build getting 30% to max 40% p.def is as for how it goes.

Nelae - Heavens Tear

Nightfaii - Harshlands wrote: »

All you need is your level and your HP.

Adding 1 HP point will give you an increase of .00253
Adding 1 Defense point will give you an increase of .00333

Because I assume you're wearing heavy armor and want to tank magic, assume the defense increase is half .00166
(because it would take two shards to cover both magic and physical)

Defense shards are already more efficient for you, but HP is going to benefit for magic as well. Once you reach 6000 HP, defense shards become twice as effective for your level. At that point you might want to split up additional shards into magic def and physical def.

Sorry for double post now b:surrender

But adding p.def to HA is useless.
M.def yes, but p.def why?

Qwentomec - Heavens Tear

Ah ok thanks for the help Night

@Nalae
I never intended to add PDef shards, I have more than enough already. Dunno where Night was going there, but what she said about MDef shards is good.

Nelae - Heavens Tear

Qwentomec - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ah ok thanks for the help Night

@Nalae
I never intended to add PDef shards, I have more than enough already. Dunno where Night was going there, but what she said about MDef shards is good.

Thats why i wonder O_o

Nightfaii - Harshlands

Qwentomec - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ah ok thanks for the help Night

@Nalae
I never intended to add PDef shards, I have more than enough already. Dunno where Night was going there, but what she said about MDef shards is good.

For level 77, it does not matter how much defense you have. You could have 9999999999 defense and even still, adding just 1 more point will give you a better ability to tank than adding 1 HP past 3.2k HP. It is better for p.def, but most people want m.def too, so keep using HP until 6k. Past 6k HP, you would need to add 4 HP shards to equal 1 p.def shard + 1 m.def shard. Do not go past 6k hp with HP shards.

Bebisita - Dreamweaver

Now... why not just refine for HP and get the best of both worlds?
Or is that a stupid question? b:surrender

Nelae - Heavens Tear

Nightfaii - Harshlands wrote: »

For level 77, it does not matter how much defense you have. You could have 9999999999 defense and even still, adding just 1 more point will give you a better ability to tank than adding 1 HP past 3.2k HP. It is better for p.def, but most people want m.def too, so keep using HP until 6k. Past 6k HP, you would need to add 4 HP shards to equal 1 p.def shard + 1 m.def shard. Do not go past 6k hp with HP shards.

Lol it does matter. If you already have a huge p.def adding p.def is useless.
Cause the game works that way. You dont see dmg reduction until you see it in % on your screen. So adding m.def is the way to go for someone with natural high p.def and with natural high HP.

Am i sure in this, yes i am. On single mob you dont see any change. But while i aoe grind on mobs who literally want to kick my a$$. I dont see dmg being reduced adding lill more wood def unless it breaks the existing %.


What i am trying to say to you is that you cant use point for def, you can only use %. Thats why 1hp point is better then 1 def point, unless that def points brings the new reduction in %

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Am i sure in this, yes i am. On single mob you dont see any change. But while i aoe grind on mobs who literally want to kick my a$$. I dont see dmg being reduced adding lill more wood def unless it breaks the existing %.

I'm sure that you're sure, but my question is whether you are right. It's an interesting question. I'll go and try to test your theory and see if I can find out what the truth is.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Nightfaii - Harshlands wrote: »

For level 77, it does not matter how much defense you have. You could have 9999999999 defense and even still, adding just 1 more point will give you a better ability to tank than adding 1 HP past 3.2k HP. It is better for p.def, but most people want m.def too, so keep using HP until 6k. Past 6k HP, you would need to add 4 HP shards to equal 1 p.def shard + 1 m.def shard. Do not go past 6k hp with HP shards.

pdef = 90,000 (just picked any high number)
hp = 4000 (picked a number higher than your 3.2k hp threshold)
lvl = 77

DR = pdef/(pdef+40*lvl)
= 90000 / (90000+40*77)
= 0.966910185

Now figure out how much pre-DR damage a mob needs to do to kill you (your equivalent hp):

Equivalent HP = hp / (1-DR)
= 4000 / (1-0.966910185)
= 120883.1

Add 1 hp
DR = 0.966910185
EHP = 4001 / (1-0.966910185) = 120913.3

Add 1 pdef instead
DR = 90001 / (90001+40*77) = 0.96691054
EHP = 4000 / (1-0.96691054) = 120884.4

So +1 hp gives considerably more benefit than +1 pdef, even though the initial hp is far above your threshold. I really think there's something funny about the % increase in survivability stuff, and it isn't the number we're really interested in.