Which is more effective? HPvsDef shards and seals

Nightfaii - Harshlands

There are hundreds of threads covering the topic of HP vs. Def, but the conclusions are always controversial.
You still see some players equipped with HP shards and others with defense, but who really has it figured out?
I did this work for my own benefit, but I will share what I found. It surprised me. Also, please help me if I'm wrong.


Ok, so this page is different from before. Thank you to everybody who helped find my errors.




1. Find your level and the corresponding value on the graph.
2. Take how much defense you have and add that value to it. (This is how much HP you should get)
3. If you have less HP than that number, it is better to add HP shards.
4. If you have more HP than that number, it is better to add defense shards. (Repeat process for m.def and p.def seperately)




More about the derivations of this graph and the editing up to this date:

Seems my work from before had an error in the defense calculations.
1. Adding defense gives exponentially less % reduction in damage the higher defense is
2. Adding defense % gives exponentially more survivability increase the higher defense is
(1. and 2. give a linear change for each point added. The slope is 1/(40*Level).)
1 and 2 were considered in my previous calculations but not #3.
3. The defense you currently have affects the effective increase of the HP (and visa-versa)


Formulas:
1. Def/(1+40*L) = Damage reduction
2. 1/(1-%DR) = Survivability multiplier
3. (These are still correct, the rest was edited with better reasoning)
(A) Survivability for +1 Def: HP/(1-(Def+1)/(Def+1+40*L))
(B) Survivability for +1 HP: (HP+1)/(1-Def/(Def+40*L))

The chart shows how much more Survivability your getting from +1 HP on a level 50 character with the specific defense amounts. (eq.A minus eq.B)


Consider the bars above the line mean add HP, and bars below the line mean add Def.

The number value for level 50 from the first graph is 2000.
2000+0 defense = 2000 HP minimum before def shards become more effective
2000+1000 defense = 3000 HP minimum before def shards become more effective
2000+3000 defense = 5000 HP minimum before def shards become more effective





If you don't understand how this works, picture your survivability as the area of a rectangle, and the height and width as the HP and defense you are allowed respectively.

If you have a very stretched rectangle with very little HP and a ton of defense, the area of the rectangle is smaller; and your character would die easy. The best ratio of HP to defense is when the area is the largest (a perfect square), and that is when both are equal.

That is similar to how this works on your character. These charts show where that optimum point is for this game.








Refer to page 7 for recent changes and opinions on this edited thread Click Here

Huddle - Sanctuary

to much ^^b:angry

NaoShimai - Sanctuary

wow.. that is amazing. Everything is so much clearer on a graph. But, this made me really not look forward to school starting again (@__@). This is very helpful though, I had always wondered which would benefit me more. I went with a mix of both.

Kittennice - Heavens Tear

It also depends on the character build. If your defense is already high, you might as well use health shards. Also how long it takes for you to kill an enemy. Will you be able to kill it before your health runs out using extra health? Or will you be able to kill it with the extra amount of time the def gives you?

You can always mix and match. Defense comes from armor already.

Nightfaii - Harshlands

Kittennice - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It also depends on the character build. If your defense is already high, you might as well use health shards. Also how long it takes for you to kill an enemy. Will you be able to kill it before your health runs out using extra health? Or will you be able to kill it with the extra amount of time the def gives you?

You can always mix and match. Defense comes from armor already.

Both defense and hp buy you time in a fight. I tried to show what one will buy you the most time. According to this it wont matter how high your defense already is, once you reach 3.1k HP, adding more defense is always more effective (for fighting physical enemies ofc).

Kittennice - Heavens Tear

Nightfaii - Harshlands wrote: »

Both defense and hp buy you time in a fight. I tried to show what one will buy you the most time. According to this it wont matter how high your defense already is, once you reach 3.1k HP, adding more defense is always more effective (for fighting physical enemies ofc).

Ok, but wouldn't it vary on different classes? Just wondering.

I iz a novice when it comes to calculating this sort of stuff.

Barbariankev - Heavens Tear

i think you should refine gear for hp and just go for defensive shards on the rest my hp is low for a barb 7.2k fully buffed in tiger (lvl2 tiger) but i dont have trouble tanking cause i have the def to make up for it

tweakz

I'm arcane pure mag veno. I like to keep my HP low. I already have good mag def, so I use Garnet Shards for p.def. Because I keep my HP low, I can refill my MP with HP pots much cheaper than using MP pots by using Soul Transfuse on Boss fights that don't allow time for Nature's Grace or Metabolic Boost. If I need extra vit for rare occasions, I can switch a couple ornaments.

Nelae - Heavens Tear

I agree with you to one degree.
But take a close look to how much def you need to add just to get %1 later on.
If you do that it will not be as you shown in your graph. HP will take over again at that point.

EDIT: so a mix and match would be a way to go.

Death - Harshlands

A G6 Sapphire gives you +23 mdef, citrine +32 hp, garnet +41 pdef...

They all cost the same if you were to combine them, so you might want to base your statistics to match shard levels for each and define which offers you more value for your coin.

According to your charts, you're going point by point but shards don't offer the same benefits. Pdef shards would appear to be much better suited for robes than mdef for heavy armor, at least cost-wise, based on what any given grade of shard would offer.

So, given this, would mdef really be better than HP shards, if you were to fill all your A/LA/HA sockets with either of the three?

Please elaborate.

Yes, it's almost 6am and I should go to bed... so perhaps I've missed the point completely.

Nelae - Heavens Tear

Death - Harshlands wrote: »

A G6 Sapphire gives you +23 mdef, citrine +32 hp, garnet +41 pdef...

They all cost the same if you were to combine them, so you might want to base your statistics to match shard levels for each and define which offers you more value for your coin.

According to your charts, you're going point by point but shards don't offer the same benefits. Pdef shards would appear to be much better suited for robes than mdef for heavy armor, at least cost-wise, based on what any given grade of shard would offer.

So, given this, would mdef really be better than HP shards, if you were to fill all your A/LA/HA sockets with either of the three?

Please elaborate.

Yes, it's almost 6am and I should go to bed... so perhaps I've missed the point completely.

You are forgetting that HA gives more m.def then Arcane gives p.def so the difference is irrelevant to some point.

Isala - Sanctuary

See, I wondered this myself, and then I realized, once you reach a certain level, the tiny bit of extra stats I got from def shards didn't give me more than maybe 1% extra reduction. HP, while it may be decent, still gave diminishing returns, as your pool of HP increases other ways, such as refining. It's really a matter of maximizing your returns on all attributes.

While thinking about this, I realized that there was one stat that most people would probably overlook, and therefore, would be very, very easy to gain higher returns on. Evasion. I'm a Hybrid Veno, which means in Fox Form I have a skill to decrease accuracy. Combine high Evasion, and opponents with crippled accuracy? I knew that was my path.

I'm LA/AA, so I put Evasion shards into my LA, so while tanking, I don't get hit as often, and HP shards into my AA, because the refinements on robes don't give you as much HP, and I'm not going to be tanking Physical in robes.

So, the question honestly isn't which is better, more of a "Which fits what I need, and will be doing?"

I think the best idea is probably to cover your weaknesses. Barbs packing Heavy Armor might find more use in Mag Def shards, while Robe wearing classes might try Phys Def Shards, and Archers, especially the pure ones, would probably love HP shards. So, I think that the effectiveness really depends on the person playing.

Walterthewf - Harshlands

HP has no diminishing returns.

Defense does.

makes a big difference

edit:
your linear assumption for survivability doesn't work.

it needs more data to be supported and diminishing return on # of defense needed to increase percentage of survivability can't be linear.

you can find a linear pattern but that does not make it the correct variable

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Walterthewf - Harshlands wrote: »

HP has no diminishing returns.

Defense does.

makes a big difference

Nah if you have 500 life and add 100 HP you get 20% more life while if you are at 10K life and add 100 HP you get 1% more life (barely noticable).

Isala - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Nah if you have 500 life and add 100 HP you get 20% more life while if you are at 10K life and add 100 HP you get 1% more life (barely noticable).

That's what I meant. Thank you for wording it better than I did.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

I have 4700 hp unbuffed, 7k magic def and 1700 phy def. I've been trying to balance out my stats by adding more phy def while keeping my other stats pretty much the same. I have mostly hp shards and so far it appears to be working.

I took off 2% magic def for 5% phy def and made up I think about 1% magic def by refining my rings. Know what does what when you refine it and it takes you a long way in having high stats.

Walterthewf - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Nah if you have 500 life and add 100 HP you get 20% more life while if you are at 10K life and add 100 HP you get 1% more life (barely noticable).

That is a deceiving perception. Sure, it looks nice with percentages but it actually shows nothing.



Look at it like this:
# of attacks you can survive would be survivability, correct?
Each attack on you is 100 damage.
If you have 500 hp, you survive 5 attacks.
if you have 600 hp, you survive 6 attacks.

If you have 10000 hp, you survive 100 attacks.
If you have 10100 hp, you survive 101 attacks.


The change in percentage of attacks needed to kill you is very very different, as your situation points out.

However, actual increase in survivability always changes by 1 attack. Changes in percentages don't matter, it only ruins your perception, but as far as statistical advantage, it has no use.

With defense shards, this is not the case.

Defense shards are never linear, and can't be forced to be linear no matter how the data falls.
Thus why this is a hard situation to choose.

Walterthewf - Harshlands

Just some basic calculations:

5658.........64.......................177.78
6060.........66.......................194.12

402 defense points for a 2 percentage increase in pdef


lets focus only on pdmg for now....for the sake of sanity.

Let's assume a base health of 4,000 hp -- (more then 3100 hp, which was your benchmark.)

Z = damage needed to kill someone.
It takes: (Z x .36) = 4402 (Assume each defense point could be converted into 1 health point. G7 HP = 40 G7 Pdef = 41)

It takes: (Z x .34) = 4000

where Z is higher, it takes more damage to kill someone, thus a better survivability.

Let' solve.

4402/.36 = 12227.78 damage needed to kill the HP over defense shards.

4000/.34 = 11764.71 damage needed to kill the defense over HP shards.


There you have it, if one has 4,000 base hp and 64% base pdef, HP shards are a better route to go.


Now consider this:

Charms

Let's assume your HP is 1.5x normal.

6603/.36 = 18341.67 damage needed to kill
6000/.34 = 17647.06 damage needed to kill

Once again HP wins.

Now consider this:

12227/11764 = 1.039357
18341/17647= 1.039326

Considering I rounded, it shows charm ticks have no impact on survivability.

I realize I started with a very very high Pdef rate versus a middle of the road HP value.
But, this on its own debunks the "3100 rule".

At the same time, you also need to remember.

Pdef shards ONLY helps versus Pdmg.

At 64 percentage pdef base and 4k hp, HP is better when only considering Pdmg. If one were to include Mdmg also, it would favor Hp to a ridiculous extent.


Needles to say, this is much more complicated then the graphs presented.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

Also, the lower your phy def is to start with, the more benificial it would be to add phy def instead of hp since you get a bigger boost to def % with less def added on if you have very low phy def.

Thelegion - Lost City

Exelent Thread i read all of it, b:victory

AndromedaB - Sanctuary

if ur in a squad hp gets a bonus lesser than the cleric buffs add to your def..




PS: did you include in your equasions how def becomese more and more useless... like at 90s 500ish points att 1%

Zoe - Heavens Tear

AndromedaB - Sanctuary wrote: »

if ur in a squad hp gets a bonus lesser than the cleric buffs add to your def..




PS: did you include in your equasions how def becomese more and more useless... like at 90s 500ish points att 1%

Depending on how much you have to start. I removed about 400 points from my magic def and lost 2%, I added 336 phy def and got 5% more phy def since my magic def is already so high and my phy def is not.

When you do the math you have to take into account starting stats.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Walterthewf - Harshlands wrote: »

That is a deceiving perception. Sure, it looks nice with percentages but it actually shows nothing.



Look at it like this:
# of attacks you can survive would be survivability, correct?
Each attack on you is 100 damage.
If you have 500 hp, you survive 5 attacks.
if you have 600 hp, you survive 6 attacks.

If you have 10000 hp, you survive 100 attacks.
If you have 10100 hp, you survive 101 attacks.


The change in percentage of attacks needed to kill you is very very different, as your situation points out.

However, actual increase in survivability always changes by 1 attack. Changes in percentages don't matter, it only ruins your perception, but as far as statistical advantage, it has no use.

With defense shards, this is not the case.

Defense shards are never linear, and can't be forced to be linear no matter how the data falls.
Thus why this is a hard situation to choose.

Translate those numbers into reductions. The first case the added hp is equivalent to a 16% reduction while the second case is only a 1% reduction. While the absolute difference is the same (100 hp), the marginal utility of HP decreases the higher you go. A level 1 archer would benefit much more from 1k added HP than a level 90 barb.

This is why the hp bonuses from equipment and refining is much higher at higher levels. When you hit 90 those common citrines you used before just don't cut it anymore, those level 50 HP pots you thought were cool before are now trash. Its not that you have higher standards or more money, its that they are less useful to you.

Quilue - Sanctuary

when you reach 97?? b:cry b:beatupb:angry

Nightfaii - Harshlands

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Also, the lower your phy def is to start with, the more benificial it would be to add phy def instead of hp since you get a bigger boost to def % with less def added on if you have very low phy def.

I see almost everybody has this idea, but your forgetting that this is actually reducing damage not increasing survivability. Consider having 100% reduction in damage.

Yes, you get a bigger boost to your def %, but your boost is less effective at lower percentages. A % boost from 5% to 6% is the same as going from 1.0526xHP to 1.0632xHP (.0106 increase). A % boost from 55% to 56% is the same as going from 2.2222xHP to 2.2727xHP (.0505 increase). The closer you get to 100% defense, the much more effective that 1% more will be (in fact, infinitely more effective from 99-100)

The %increase of defense by adding 1 defense point goes down exponentially as defense goes up. (programmed to prevent invulnerability)
The %increase of survivability goes up exponentially with each increase in %defense. (effect from the reduction in damage)

So adding defense will have the same effect no matter what defense you already have because>>>
The two exponentials together gave a straight line.

Nelae - Heavens Tear

Nightfaii - Harshlands wrote: »

I see almost everybody has this idea, but your forgetting that this is actually reducing damage not increasing survivability. Consider having 100% reduction in damage.

Yes, you get a bigger boost to your def %, but your boost is less effective at lower percentages. A % boost from 5% to 6% is the same as going from 1.0526xHP to 1.0632xHP (.0106 increase). A % boost from 55% to 56% is the same as going from 2.2222xHP to 2.2727xHP (.0505 increase). The closer you get to 100% defense, the much more effective that 1% more will be (in fact, infinitely more effective from 99-100)

The %increase of defense by adding 1 defense point goes down exponentially as defense goes up. (programmed to prevent invulnerability)
The %increase of survivability goes up exponentially with each increase in %defense. (effect from the reduction in damage)

So adding defense will have the same effect no matter what defense you already have because>>>
The two exponentials together gave a straight line.

Actually no xD.
To get 1% lets say of m.def i need to add close to 1k. But to get 20% in p.def i also need to add close to 1k cause i am arcane and naturally have lower p.def.
Now while it is possible to achieve good p.def you must know when to stop.
Cause adding 1000p.def for 1% reduction is impossible.

Said so HP gems take over again.

Nightfaii - Harshlands

@ Nelae - Heavens Tear see below

Walterthewf - Harshlands wrote: »

HP has no diminishing returns.

Defense does.

makes a big difference

edit:
your linear assumption for survivability doesn't work.

it needs more data to be supported and diminishing return on # of defense needed to increase percentage of survivability can't be linear.

you can find a linear pattern but that does not make it the correct variable

Defense has no diminishing returns, its very nearly linear. The pattern was actually so closely linear that the degree of error on the fit was tiny.

And % on your stats is only a integer primitive variable, meaning that it was rounded down (10.2 = 10, 10.8 = 10, ect) from the actual % used by the game in your battles.
The real number is probably a double primitive variable, so it does not mean that you need the next % on your stat before you notice the difference. Some people might have that confused.

Nightfaii - Harshlands

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Actually no xD.
To get 1% lets say of m.def i need to add close to 1k. But to get 20% in p.def i also need to add close to 1k cause i am arcane and naturally have lower p.def.
Now while it is possible to achieve good p.def you must know when to stop.
Cause adding 1000p.def for 1% reduction is impossible.

Said so HP gems take over again.

you didnt read what i wrote, adding 1% more at 1k m.def will be 20 times more effective then.

Go from 1% reduction to 2% reduction and you wont notice much difference in the time it takes for you to die.
Go from 99% to 100% reduction and you notice an infinite difference, infact, you will never die.

Imagine going from 98% to 99%, and you've just reduced his effective damage by half. That 1% increase alone just doubled your survivability. 1% to 2% does not double your survivability on that 1% change.

The difference is exponential, adding 1 more % becomes more and more effective and harder and harder to achieve.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

also do note that adding all HP shards to arcane armor = fail

generally just add g5 (g6,g7,g8 if your going to use it for a while) garnets to your armor. In your hat and cape add g5 (g6,g7,g8 if your going to use it for a while) citrines.

this way you can get some decent pdef and nice HP

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Actually no xD.
To get 1% lets say of m.def i need to add close to 1k. But to get 20% in p.def i also need to add close to 1k cause i am arcane and naturally have lower p.def.
Now while it is possible to achieve good p.def you must know when to stop.
Cause adding 1000p.def for 1% reduction is impossible.

Said so HP gems take over again.

No, what you're missing is that going from 80% DR to 90% DR ("only" a 10% improvement) has the same benefit as going from 0% DR to 50% DR (a 50% improvement). Both let you survive twice as long.

That's what "the survivability benefit of def is completely linear" means in English. Adding 1000 pdef gives you the same benefit in terms of how many extra hits you can take, whether your starting pdef is 0 or 10k. I figured this out months ago but nobody seems to believe me when I tell them. The inversion from DR to survivability really seems to confuse people's thinking. Nightfaii's post is the first time I've seen someone else substantiating it.

Nightfaii - Harshlands wrote: »

Defense has no diminishing returns, its very nearly linear. The pattern was actually so closely linear that the degree of error on the fit was tiny.

BTW, the formula to go from def score to DR is:

% damage reduction = 100*def / (def + 40*lvl)

You'll probably find that the minor errors in your fit are due to rounding off % DR to an integer in the character info display.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

There are two different sets of numbers. The phys resist value you see in the character sheet and the % reduction that is calculated from it.

physical resist has diminishing returns in adding % reduction. % reduction increases in effectiveness the closer it gets to 100%. Apparently the two balance out.

Other points:

1) HP applies to both magical and physical survivability
2) Magical def and physical def can be more greatly buffed than HP
3) Magical def and physical def can be more easily debuffed than HP (there are tons more resistance debuffs out there than HP debuffs).
4) Physical survivability can also be helped somewhat by evasion